LOT767301ER wrote:

casinterest wrote:

LOT767301ER wrote:

The standard of living in the US any way you measure it whether it be HDI, PPP per capita or a number of factors intertwined is worse in some of the places I just mentioned than in the US. How do you reconcile that a country like Italy or Austria has a lower HDI number than the US, a metric that focuses not only on the economic factors but also on education and healthcare? Your titanic of an argument is sinking quickly.

You also seem sour that you can actually fire incompetent or not needed labor in the US or....?

I think you aren't representing my argument at all, but only gaslighting your own views unrelated to minimum wage arguments.

What is your view? That we should have a higher minimum wage and a bigger safety net? Why? France, Japan, Canada, South Korea, Spain and even the UK deploy the same or lower HDI than the US and all of them subscribe to that theory. That tells me that the non-economic factors are not better and the economic metric in the US crushes those countries.

Go start another thread to push your world view.
This issue is about the US and 0.00 minimum wages in the US where there is not outside safety net for workers vs employers

Tugger wrote:

And of course Milton Friedman also favored open, free immigration to go along with his other theories. (And illegal immigration if one didn't follow his theories).

Tugg

Yes, you know why?

He said he supported illegal immigration because illegals won't be able to use money from the safety net the same way US citizens would.

So for him, illegal immigration was great because the burden on the tax payer was non-existent.

But then, we decided we needed to let illegal immigrants join the welfare state. He changed his theory after that.

AirWorthy99 wrote:

But then, we decided we needed to let illegal immigrants join the welfare state. He changed his theory after that.

Actually he didn't.

As I said he advocated open immigration along with his laissez-faire theories. He did not change his theories when policies did not match them. He advocated for them just the same. He would have been against the stupid "the wall" thing and would have pushed to just open the border while suppressing any options for welfare. (And there are few "welfare" options, even now, for those here illegally.)

Tugg

Affordability has nothing to do with minimum wage. Affordability has to do with SUPPLY. For example, if due to zoning laws not many homes are built but instead only one luxury condominium, then no matter how high the minimum wage, housing will be unaffordable to most.
The truth is that it is easiest for politicians to legislate an increase in the minimum wage as it doesn't cost them a thing and gets them lots of votes. It is not so easy to create jobs out of thin air or built thousands of affordable homes. And as long as low-cost jobs are moved to Asia, people with minimal skills won't get a job. No matter how high the minimum wage.

Dieuwer wrote:

Affordability has nothing to do with minimum wage. Affordability has to do with SUPPLY. For example, if due to zoning laws not many homes are built but instead only one luxury condominium, then no matter how high the minimum wage, housing will be unaffordable to most.
The truth is that it is easiest for politicians to legislate an increase in the minimum wage as it doesn't cost them a thing and gets them lots of votes. It is not so easy to create jobs out of thin air or built thousands of affordable homes. And as long as low-cost jobs are moved to Asia, people with minimal skills won't get a job. No matter how high the minimum wage.

Zoning laws are a big part of the equation in San Francisco and there is no easy solution. You want to build affordable housing, but its hard to figure out where to build it because then NIMBYism creeps in. Rezoning existing areas is politically toxic because it increases supply and drives down housing costs. And the problem this creates is you have a very well off upper middle class, but you need small businesses run by middle class people to function as a city, and the people these employ cant afford to live in the area at those wages.

But the Minimum wage absolutely needs to be raised. And I think it is a big stain on the Democratic party that the last president who did it was George W. Bush. Barack Obama never did it despite having both houses and even a veto proof majority in his first two years. And so far Biden has failed to do it as well just because when the time came to do it, he hid behind the senate parliamentarian rather than have Kamala Harris overrule the parliamentarian. And when a vote was actually taken on this, 10 democrats voted no, including Dems from some of the bluest states in the country.


I will say though, that Newsom was mayor of San Francisco and could have addressed some of these issues and didn't. That is on him. There is less he can do as governor, but it doesn't make him look good at all. As I said, he will survive the recall not because he is liked or voters think he is doing a good job, but because voters are absolutely terrified of the prospect of Larry Elder becoming governor.

apodino wrote:

I will say though, that Newsom was mayor of San Francisco and could have addressed some of these issues and didn't. That is on him. There is less he can do as governor, but it doesn't make him look good at all. As I said, he will survive the recall not because he is liked or voters think he is doing a good job, but because voters are absolutely terrified of the prospect of Larry Elder becoming governor.

Yes, this is something that annoys me a lot. I wouldn't mind, and mostly prefer a Republican in the Governor office in California due to our overweighted Dem majority in the legislature. However I want a CALIFORNIA Republican, not an idiot parrots like Elders etc. that is a "National Republican" (or whatever). I don't care about or need the national zealots trying to force feed their brand of Republicanism to this state. (And I don't care if other states don't like our "version" of Republican). One-size-fits-all... doesn't. It is part of the reason for the Republican failures in California, the RNC can't support anyone the rabid zealots don't.

A general rule of thumb for me is if a Trumplican supports the person I don't want them in office.

Tugg

Aaron747 wrote:

Newark727 wrote:

Now's a good time to mention that Larry Elder endorsed a minimum wage of $0.00. I'm sure that would be great for keeping people in their homes.
https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-go ... 31758.html

Wow, it's like he suddenly decided he wants to tank and lose.

I would not say it is sudden, though. I have heard him say things like that before.

Larry Elder is to the CA economy what Islamic extremist fathers are to their rape victim daughters. Literally nothing good can come from him, and today's surge in favor of keeping Newsom reflects that.

casinterest wrote:

I think you aren't representing my argument at all, but only gaslighting your own views unrelated to minimum wage arguments.

Which is exactly why I do not respond to trash posts like his. I admire your patience, FWIW...

Tugger wrote:

Yes, this is something that annoys me a lot. I wouldn't mind, and mostly prefer a Republican in the Governor office in California due to our overweighted Dem majority in the legislature. However I want a CALIFORNIA Republican, not an idiot parrots like Elders etc. that is a "National Republican" (or whatever). I don't care about or need the national zealots trying to force feed their brand of Republicanism to this state. (And I don't care if other states don't like our "version" of Republican). One-size-fits-all... doesn't. It is part of the reason for the Republican failures in California, the RNC can't support anyone the rabid zealots don't.

A general rule of thumb for me is if a Trumplican supports the person I don't want them in office.

Tugg

I think this is fair. I can deal with an R who will not court religious extremists or stand in the way of any of the social advances we have made. I would be ok with the Governator again.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

I think this is fair. I can deal with an R who will not court religious extremists or stand in the way of any of the social advances we have made. I would be ok with the Governator again.

That's kinda the rub though. The Republicans aren't, and we can't expect them to nominate guys like that anymore.

Newark727 wrote:

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

I think this is fair. I can deal with an R who will not court religious extremists or stand in the way of any of the social advances we have made. I would be ok with the Governator again.

That's kinda the rub though. The Republicans aren't, and we can't expect them to nominate guys like that anymore.

Yep, and the MAGA base tars any Republican interested in good governance as a RINO. The irony is thick.

Aaron747 wrote:

Newark727 wrote:

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

I think this is fair. I can deal with an R who will not court religious extremists or stand in the way of any of the social advances we have made. I would be ok with the Governator again.

That's kinda the rub though. The Republicans aren't, and we can't expect them to nominate guys like that anymore.

Yep, and the MAGA base tars any Republican interested in good governance as a RINO. The irony is thick.

Certainly. I am noticing that this extremism is also adding about two points a day to Newsom's lead as well. That works for everyone here and now, but it does beg the question of will republicans ever run reasonable candidates again? I am not optimistic on that.

casinterest wrote:

LOT767301ER wrote:

casinterest wrote:

So These conservatives are trying to bring back slavery? That is what 0.00 means.

So you're saying that Italy, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Iceland, Denmark, Austria, Switzerland, Cyprus etc. are slave countries?

Yes they would be ,except they have workers rights, and standard of living requirements from the government that take the place .

In the US, Right to work, there is no such safety net.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
The "vision" of EU some of you have is just ridiculous.
Start paying 50%+ in taxes for a population of 5M (entire country (or 350K for Iceland)) in comparison to 20M+ for a place like NYC ALONE and you should do simple 1+1 that you can't compare it to absolutely anything in the states.
There are more illegals in US alone (which you pay for one way or another) than the combined population of half the countries you listed here.

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

LOT767301ER wrote:

So you're saying that Italy, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Iceland, Denmark, Austria, Switzerland, Cyprus etc. are slave countries?

Yes they would be ,except they have workers rights, and standard of living requirements from the government that take the place .

In the US, Right to work, there is no such safety net.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
The "vision" of EU some of you have is just ridiculous.
Start paying 50%+ in taxes for a population of 5M (entire country (or 350K for Iceland)) in comparison to 20M+ for a place like NYC ALONE and you should do simple 1+1 that you can't compare it to absolutely anything in here.

Have you ever gone to Europe? have you ever gotten sick overseas? Have you ever worked while your colleagues take most of the month of August or July off over there?


Also in regards to paying 50% + in taxes, Add in your Health insurance and bills , and College Education to your state, local and federal taxes. Also include your Gas taxes and sales taxes.

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Yes they would be ,except they have workers rights, and standard of living requirements from the government that take the place .

In the US, Right to work, there is no such safety net.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
The "vision" of EU some of you have is just ridiculous.
Start paying 50%+ in taxes for a population of 5M (entire country (or 350K for Iceland)) in comparison to 20M+ for a place like NYC ALONE and you should do simple 1+1 that you can't compare it to absolutely anything in here.

Have you ever gone to Europe? have you ever gotten sick overseas? Have you ever worked while your colleagues take most of the month of August or July off over there?


Also in regards to paying 50% + in taxes, Add in your Health insurance and bills , and College Education to your state, local and federal taxes. Also include your Gas taxes and sales taxes.

I lived in 4 different EU countries for nearly 25 years of my life.
Also:
https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

LOT767301ER wrote:

So you're saying that Italy, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Iceland, Denmark, Austria, Switzerland, Cyprus etc. are slave countries?

Yes they would be ,except they have workers rights, and standard of living requirements from the government that take the place .

In the US, Right to work, there is no such safety net.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
The "vision" of EU some of you have is just ridiculous.
Start paying 50%+ in taxes for a population of 5M (entire country (or 350K for Iceland)) in comparison to 20M+ for a place like NYC ALONE and you should do simple 1+1 that you can't compare it to absolutely anything in the states.
There are more illegals in US alone (which you pay for one way or another) than the combined population of half the countries you listed here.

Not sure why you bring up illegals when most of the business lobbies benefiting from their presence love having them here. I certainly don't see people complaining about the cheaper construction, hotel rates, domestic help, and groceries.

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

You have no idea what you are talking about.
The "vision" of EU some of you have is just ridiculous.
Start paying 50%+ in taxes for a population of 5M (entire country (or 350K for Iceland)) in comparison to 20M+ for a place like NYC ALONE and you should do simple 1+1 that you can't compare it to absolutely anything in here.

Have you ever gone to Europe? have you ever gotten sick overseas? Have you ever worked while your colleagues take most of the month of August or July off over there?


Also in regards to paying 50% + in taxes, Add in your Health insurance and bills , and College Education to your state, local and federal taxes. Also include your Gas taxes and sales taxes.

I lived in 4 different EU countries for nearly 25 years of my life.

Then you should know the difference between labor unions and right to work, yet you don't

Aaron747 wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Yes they would be ,except they have workers rights, and standard of living requirements from the government that take the place .

In the US, Right to work, there is no such safety net.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
The "vision" of EU some of you have is just ridiculous.
Start paying 50%+ in taxes for a population of 5M (entire country (or 350K for Iceland)) in comparison to 20M+ for a place like NYC ALONE and you should do simple 1+1 that you can't compare it to absolutely anything in the states.
There are more illegals in US alone (which you pay for one way or another) than the combined population of half the countries you listed here.

Not sure why you bring up illegals when most of the business lobbies benefiting from their presence love having them here. I certainly don't see people complaining about the cheaper construction, hotel rates, domestic help, and groceries.

That's exactly why I bring them into this discussion.
They are a burden to the country while benefitting personal pockets.
Can any of you see what's the problem here?
You want this utopia without the effort.
US will NEVER reach a level sustainable enough to implement real and serious social services. The private sector lobbyist will make sure of this while regular folks will champion the "right" to cheap avocado and will stand behind it.

Just go and read statistical data on middle-class income/spending in USA between 1980 and 2021.
If you can not spot what's happening then you ARE the problem.

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Have you ever gone to Europe? have you ever gotten sick overseas? Have you ever worked while your colleagues take most of the month of August or July off over there?


Also in regards to paying 50% + in taxes, Add in your Health insurance and bills , and College Education to your state, local and federal taxes. Also include your Gas taxes and sales taxes.

I lived in 4 different EU countries for nearly 25 years of my life.

Then you should know the difference between labor unions and right to work, yet you don't

You are talking about things that don't matter at all.
Get your ass to work, support the system, get rid of all the burdens, and then you can have your cake.
What you want is a dysfunctional uncle that handles money left and right till everybody gets angry at him cause the well dried up.

PixelPilot wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

You have no idea what you are talking about.
The "vision" of EU some of you have is just ridiculous.
Start paying 50%+ in taxes for a population of 5M (entire country (or 350K for Iceland)) in comparison to 20M+ for a place like NYC ALONE and you should do simple 1+1 that you can't compare it to absolutely anything in the states.
There are more illegals in US alone (which you pay for one way or another) than the combined population of half the countries you listed here.

Not sure why you bring up illegals when most of the business lobbies benefiting from their presence love having them here. I certainly don't see people complaining about the cheaper construction, hotel rates, domestic help, and groceries.

That's exactly why I bring them into this discussion.
They are a burden to the country while benefitting personal pockets.
Can any of you see what's the problem here?
You want this utopia without the effort.
US will NEVER reach a level sustainable enough to implement real and serious social services. The private sector lobbyist will make sure of this.

Just go and read statistical data on middle-class income/spending in USA between 1980 and 2021.
If you can not spot what's happening then you ARE the problem.

Well aware of what's happening but we're not going to get anywhere on fundamental structural issues anyhow if people are electing populists who cut taxes for the 1%.

Aaron747 wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Not sure why you bring up illegals when most of the business lobbies benefiting from their presence love having them here. I certainly don't see people complaining about the cheaper construction, hotel rates, domestic help, and groceries.

That's exactly why I bring them into this discussion.
They are a burden to the country while benefitting personal pockets.
Can any of you see what's the problem here?
You want this utopia without the effort.
US will NEVER reach a level sustainable enough to implement real and serious social services. The private sector lobbyist will make sure of this.

Just go and read statistical data on middle-class income/spending in USA between 1980 and 2021.
If you can not spot what's happening then you ARE the problem.

Well aware of what's happening but we're not going to get anywhere on fundamental structural issues anyhow if people are electing populists who cut taxes for the 1%.

It will never happen no matter who you elect. US is so self-centric on the ground level that what you want is an illusion. You need a unified effort for something like this. Good luck with all the divide.
A perfect example of duality and selective use of moral standards that automatically tells the other side what they need to know. Like holy shit even Ray Charles would see the problem here.
https://twitter.com/LACoSheriff/status/ ... 71520?s=20

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

I lived in 4 different EU countries for nearly 25 years of my life.

Then you should know the difference between labor unions and right to work, yet you don't

You are talking about things that don't matter at all.
Get your ass to work, support the system, get rid of all the burdens, and then you can have your cake.
What you want is a dysfunctional uncle that handles money left and right till everybody gets angry at him cause the well dried up.

You pretend that 50% of the below average can do the work of the above average.
That is how difunctionally unaware the people in the US currently are.

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Then you should know the difference between labor unions and right to work, yet you don't

You are talking about things that don't matter at all.
Get your ass to work, support the system, get rid of all the burdens, and then you can have your cake.
What you want is a dysfunctional uncle that handles money left and right till everybody gets angry at him cause the well dried up.

You pretend that 50% of the below average can do the work of the above average.
That is how difunctionally unaware the people in the US currently are.

Nobody is pretending here. Do you think those countries don't have social problems?
You work not theorycraft.
That's the reason this country is falling on its face. Those beliefs that you are entitled to something.

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

You are talking about things that don't matter at all.
Get your ass to work, support the system, get rid of all the burdens, and then you can have your cake.
What you want is a dysfunctional uncle that handles money left and right till everybody gets angry at him cause the well dried up.

You pretend that 50% of the below average can do the work of the above average.
That is how difunctionally unaware the people in the US currently are.

Nobody is pretending here. Do you think those countries don't have social problems?
You work not theorycraft.
That's the reason this country is falling on its face. Those beliefs that you are entitled to something.

This country has much bigger social issues because we actively have a large section of the population convinced that media outlets that thrive on misinformation, are telling them the truth.

Digging holes may seem productive, but if the hole is in the wrong spot, what good does it do ?

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

You pretend that 50% of the below average can do the work of the above average.
That is how difunctionally unaware the people in the US currently are.

Nobody is pretending here. Do you think those countries don't have social problems?
You work not theorycraft.
That's the reason this country is falling on its face. Those beliefs that you are entitled to something.

This country has much bigger social issues because we actively have a large section of the population convinced that media outlets that thrive on misinformation, are telling them the truth.

Digging holes may seem productive, but if the hole is in the wrong spot, what good does it do ?

Your belief that you are somehow better and of higher moral standards is the irony of this discussion.
If you are incapable of stepping down from the high horse you sit on and talk to people that have different realities than yours, then you are everything you hate about the other side. Literally.
The same discriminatory and dismissive mentality just different subject of choice.

PixelPilot wrote:

Nobody is pretending here. Do you think those countries don't have social problems?
You work not theorycraft.
That's the reason this country is falling on its face. Those beliefs that you are entitled to something.

You are onto something interesting that is perhaps better explored as a thread starter topic.

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

Nobody is pretending here. Do you think those countries don't have social problems?
You work not theorycraft.
That's the reason this country is falling on its face. Those beliefs that you are entitled to something.

This country has much bigger social issues because we actively have a large section of the population convinced that media outlets that thrive on misinformation, are telling them the truth.

Digging holes may seem productive, but if the hole is in the wrong spot, what good does it do ?

Your belief that you are somehow better and of higher moral standards is the irony of this discussion.
If you are incapable of stepping down from the high horse you sit on and talk to people that have different realities than yours, then you are everything you hate about the other side. Literally.
The same discriminatory and dismissive mentality just different subject of choice.

That is just gaslighting. I get to say those things because the other side already does. They don't like being told how to live. They prefer to make huge mistakes the rest of the real working world has to pay for.

They don't want covid vaccines. Guess what happens to everyone else's health insurance?
They don't want to wear helmets. Guess who has pay higher insurance.
They don't want to be told to pay for better education? Guess who has to pay for all the mistakes and loss of jobs?
They don't want "regulations" on the environment. Guess who has to pay for the infrastructure and fixes?


There is a large portion of the society that is made up of people I remember from Elementary school The people that go out break all their records because it seems fun to fling the across the room, and then blames everyone else because they don't have music to listen to anymore.

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

This country has much bigger social issues because we actively have a large section of the population convinced that media outlets that thrive on misinformation, are telling them the truth.

Digging holes may seem productive, but if the hole is in the wrong spot, what good does it do ?

Your belief that you are somehow better and of higher moral standards is the irony of this discussion.
If you are incapable of stepping down from the high horse you sit on and talk to people that have different realities than yours, then you are everything you hate about the other side. Literally.
The same discriminatory and dismissive mentality just different subject of choice.

That is just gaslighting. I get to say those things because the other side already does. They don't like being told how to live. They prefer to make huge mistakes the rest of the real working world has to pay for.

SO this is your higher moral standard? I will just cause they are? LMAO That's not gaslighting. That's you proving my point.
Also they, they, they, they AND NOTHING about what you could improve yourself to make it better for everybody.
I appreciate all the examples of what I'm trying to explain here.

You will never achieve middle ground if your belif is that only them/they must bend on the table.
In order to make things better (AND WORK), you need MIDDLE ground aso everybody joins the part. Forcing policies on others is a disaster that only elevates the problems.
You talk about so many pretty concepts without realizing that your actions cause the opposite.
This is the US in a nutshell right now and people like myself that sit in the center are in complete disbelief how common sense disappeared and was replaced with self-centric, entitled finger-pointing, and tantrum-throwing first-grade sandbox behavior we're witnessing.

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

Your belief that you are somehow better and of higher moral standards is the irony of this discussion.
If you are incapable of stepping down from the high horse you sit on and talk to people that have different realities than yours, then you are everything you hate about the other side. Literally.
The same discriminatory and dismissive mentality just different subject of choice.

That is just gaslighting. I get to say those things because the other side already does. They don't like being told how to live. They prefer to make huge mistakes the rest of the real working world has to pay for.

SO this is your higher moral standard? I will just cause they are? LMAO That's not gaslighting. That's you proving my point.
Also they, they, they, they AND NOTHING about what you could improve yourself to make it better for everybody.
I appreciate all the examples of what I'm trying to explain here.

You will never achieve middle ground if your belif is that only them/they must bend on the table.
In order to make things better, you need MIDDLE ground and not forcing policies on others. That only elevates the problems.
You talk about so many pretty concepts without realizing thsat your actions cause the opposite.

No, there is not a middle, higher or lower ground. ,. You are advocating for people that put others at risk by their own reckless behavior. This isn't good for the economy or people of the world. We have taxes and insurance to make sure that everyone is culpable and able to participate to some extent for the choices that they make. However letting people politically believe they are "right" just because they are reckless and ignorant is not good for any economy. In the US we have a higher proportion of reckless individuals due to a two-party system.

casinterest wrote:

No, there is not a middle, higher or lower ground. ,. You are advocating for people that put others at risk by their own reckless behavior. This isn't good for the economy or people of the world. We have taxes and insurance to make sure that everyone is culpable and able to participate to some extent for the choices that they make. However letting people politically believe they are "right" just because they are reckless and ignorant is not good for any economy. In the US we have a higher proportion of reckless individuals due to a two-party system.

"...Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach..."
Stalin would be proud.

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

Your belief that you are somehow better and of higher moral standards is the irony of this discussion.
If you are incapable of stepping down from the high horse you sit on and talk to people that have different realities than yours, then you are everything you hate about the other side. Literally.
The same discriminatory and dismissive mentality just different subject of choice.

That is just gaslighting. I get to say those things because the other side already does. They don't like being told how to live. They prefer to make huge mistakes the rest of the real working world has to pay for.

SO this is your higher moral standard? I will just cause they are? LMAO That's not gaslighting. That's you proving my point.
Also they, they, they, they AND NOTHING about what you could improve yourself to make it better for everybody.
I appreciate all the examples of what I'm trying to explain here.

You will never achieve middle ground if your belif is that only them/they must bend on the table.
In order to make things better (AND WORK), you need MIDDLE ground aso everybody joins the part. Forcing policies on others is a disaster that only elevates the problems.
You talk about so many pretty concepts without realizing that your actions cause the opposite.
This is the US in a nutshell right now and people like myself that sit in the center are in complete disbelief how common sense disappeared and was replaced with self-centric, entitled finger-pointing, and tantrum-throwing first-grade sandbox behavior we're witnessing.

This right here is lost on way too many people.

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

No, there is not a middle, higher or lower ground. ,. You are advocating for people that put others at risk by their own reckless behavior. This isn't good for the economy or people of the world. We have taxes and insurance to make sure that everyone is culpable and able to participate to some extent for the choices that they make. However letting people politically believe they are "right" just because they are reckless and ignorant is not good for any economy. In the US we have a higher proportion of reckless individuals due to a two-party system.

"...Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach..."
Stalin would be proud.

So you have no real response other than to gaslight. What happened to personal responsibility? It doesn't extend to family or neighbors? People are allowed to be reckless even when it endangers others?

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

No, there is not a middle, higher or lower ground. ,. You are advocating for people that put others at risk by their own reckless behavior. This isn't good for the economy or people of the world. We have taxes and insurance to make sure that everyone is culpable and able to participate to some extent for the choices that they make. However letting people politically believe they are "right" just because they are reckless and ignorant is not good for any economy. In the US we have a higher proportion of reckless individuals due to a two-party system.

"...Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach..."
Stalin would be proud.

So you have no real response other than to gaslight. What happened to personal responsibility? It doesn't extend to family or neighbors? People are allowed to be reckless even when it endangers others?

Not anywhere I am gaslighting you. I'm simply reading what you write from a perspective of a person that doesn't belive in absolutes.

And what other response do you want?
You are showing authoritarian behavior with zero remorse nor compassion for people that think differently than you. There's nothing I can say to make you think differently which was already established in this post.
I have no response for you other than good luck if you find yourself on the receiving end of policies targeting you as "the one in the wrong". I lived in a communist regime (do as you are told type of environment) as a kid but was old enough to see things. I don't wish that on anybody and wish that people would communicate their differences, find a middle ground, and move forward. Better an inch for everybody than a constant one stop forward two steps back.

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

"...Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach..."
Stalin would be proud.

So you have no real response other than to gaslight. What happened to personal responsibility? It doesn't extend to family or neighbors? People are allowed to be reckless even when it endangers others?

Not anywhere I am gaslighting you. I'm simply reading what you write from a perspective of a person that doesn't belive in absolutes.

And what other response do you want?
You are showing authoritarian behavior with zero remorse nor compassion for people that think differently than you. There's nothing I can say to make you think differently which was already established in this post.
I have no response for you other than good luck if you find yourself on the receiving end of policies targeting you as "the one in the wrong". I lived in a communist regime (do as you are told type of environment) as a kid but was old enough to see things. I don't wish that on anybody.

You do believe in absolutes. You believe people should do what they want without respect for what affect it has on the society. I am not showing zero remorse for other people. I recognize their imperfections and the effects it has on society. You conflate communism and socialism with the social contract, and that is absolutism and ignorance of those around you.

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

So you have no real response other than to gaslight. What happened to personal responsibility? It doesn't extend to family or neighbors? People are allowed to be reckless even when it endangers others?

Not anywhere I am gaslighting you. I'm simply reading what you write from a perspective of a person that doesn't belive in absolutes.

And what other response do you want?
You are showing authoritarian behavior with zero remorse nor compassion for people that think differently than you. There's nothing I can say to make you think differently which was already established in this post.
I have no response for you other than good luck if you find yourself on the receiving end of policies targeting you as "the one in the wrong". I lived in a communist regime (do as you are told type of environment) as a kid but was old enough to see things. I don't wish that on anybody.

You do believe in absolutes. You believe people should do what they want without respect for what affect it has on the society. I am not showing zero remorse for other people. I recognize their imperfections and the effects it has on society. You conflate communism and socialism with the social contract, and that is absolutism and ignorance of those around you.

I'll bite here even though I'm certain you are mixing things based on the fact that you have never spent any time in a communist/socialist society.
My opinion seems absolute to you because it requires input and understanding from both hostile (towards each other) environments which is something that you refuse to do cause I guess you believe that you are holding some higher moral ground.

Anyway...
Give me one example of an action that you speak of that has a negative effect on general society.
And please make sure that the example has a history that was long enough and was established to be correct in a long-term study.

To make this fair. Find me one such action that originated from the left and one that originated from the right. I mean, after all, you speak that you want what's best for all and all means every person living in the states no matter their color, religion, age or political affiliation.

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

Not anywhere I am gaslighting you. I'm simply reading what you write from a perspective of a person that doesn't belive in absolutes.

And what other response do you want?
You are showing authoritarian behavior with zero remorse nor compassion for people that think differently than you. There's nothing I can say to make you think differently which was already established in this post.
I have no response for you other than good luck if you find yourself on the receiving end of policies targeting you as "the one in the wrong". I lived in a communist regime (do as you are told type of environment) as a kid but was old enough to see things. I don't wish that on anybody.

You do believe in absolutes. You believe people should do what they want without respect for what affect it has on the society. I am not showing zero remorse for other people. I recognize their imperfections and the effects it has on society. You conflate communism and socialism with the social contract, and that is absolutism and ignorance of those around you.

I'll bite here even though I'm certain you are mixing things based on the fact that you have never spent any time in a communist/socialist society.
My opinion seems absolute to you because it requires input and understanding from both hostile (towards each other) environments which is something that you refuse to do cause I guess you believe that you are holding some higher moral ground.

Anyway...
Give me one example of an action that you speak of that has a negative effect on general society.
And please make sure that the example has a history that was long enough and was established to be correct in a long-term study.

To make this fair. Find me one such action that originated from the left and one that originated from the right. I mean, after all, you speak that you want what's best for all and all means every person living in the states no matter their color, religion, age or political affiliation.

Interesting you think of communism and socialism as the same...

Look, homelessness exists in every corner of the world. Here in the United States, it exists in communist socialist states like California and Massachusetts as well as patriotic states like South Dakota and Alabama. See what I did there? Exactly what the media does. Throw out trigger words. Also, I find it interesting the media focuses on these social issues only in Democratic led states but not on Republican led states. California's homeless problem seems worse because there are more people in California than, say, South Dakota. California's drug problem seems worse because there are more people. All of it. Maybe compare apples to apples and you will notice a difference.

seb146 wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

You do believe in absolutes. You believe people should do what they want without respect for what affect it has on the society. I am not showing zero remorse for other people. I recognize their imperfections and the effects it has on society. You conflate communism and socialism with the social contract, and that is absolutism and ignorance of those around you.

I'll bite here even though I'm certain you are mixing things based on the fact that you have never spent any time in a communist/socialist society.
My opinion seems absolute to you because it requires input and understanding from both hostile (towards each other) environments which is something that you refuse to do cause I guess you believe that you are holding some higher moral ground.

Anyway...
Give me one example of an action that you speak of that has a negative effect on general society.
And please make sure that the example has a history that was long enough and was established to be correct in a long-term study.

To make this fair. Find me one such action that originated from the left and one that originated from the right. I mean, after all, you speak that you want what's best for all and all means every person living in the states no matter their color, religion, age or political affiliation.

Interesting you think of communism and socialism as the same...

Look, homelessness exists in every corner of the world. Here in the United States, it exists in communist socialist states like California and Massachusetts as well as patriotic states like South Dakota and Alabama. See what I did there? Exactly what the media does. Throw out trigger words. Also, I find it interesting the media focuses on these social issues only in Democratic led states but not on Republican led states. California's homeless problem seems worse because there are more people in California than, say, South Dakota. California's drug problem seems worse because there are more people. All of it. Maybe compare apples to apples and you will notice a difference.

I strongly believe that people should understand the similarities/differences between communism and socialism a bit better especially when it comes to financial distribution.
Sure the HOW differs but ultimately they call for a very similar thing.
NOW the main difference is that gradual distribution CAN work in a democratic environment as long as you get everybody on board.
The Stalin quote was brought to this subject as a response to a perfect example of an authoritarian behavior that can be associated with how communists operate. By force. The lines of socialism and communism are getting blurrier by the day in this country because certain groups believe that they have the moral right to impose stuff on others.
For somebody that was never exposed to a different political environment, this might look nothing like it but to those that lived it, it does and some things are pretty obvious.
This is what I'm trying to point out.

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

Not anywhere I am gaslighting you. I'm simply reading what you write from a perspective of a person that doesn't belive in absolutes.

And what other response do you want?
You are showing authoritarian behavior with zero remorse nor compassion for people that think differently than you. There's nothing I can say to make you think differently which was already established in this post.
I have no response for you other than good luck if you find yourself on the receiving end of policies targeting you as "the one in the wrong". I lived in a communist regime (do as you are told type of environment) as a kid but was old enough to see things. I don't wish that on anybody.

You do believe in absolutes. You believe people should do what they want without respect for what affect it has on the society. I am not showing zero remorse for other people. I recognize their imperfections and the effects it has on society. You conflate communism and socialism with the social contract, and that is absolutism and ignorance of those around you.

I'll bite here even though I'm certain you are mixing things based on the fact that you have never spent any time in a communist/socialist society.
My opinion seems absolute to you because it requires input and understanding from both hostile (towards each other) environments which is something that you refuse to do cause I guess you believe that you are holding some higher moral ground.

Anyway...
Give me one example of an action that you speak of that has a negative effect on general society.
And please make sure that the example has a history that was long enough and was established to be correct in a long-term study.

To make this fair. Find me one such action that originated from the left and one that originated from the right. I mean, after all, you speak that you want what's best for all and all means every person living in the states no matter their color, religion, age or political affiliation.

Already been done upthread. You ignored it then and gaslighted on to your communism argument. it isn't a left vs right thing.
It is the less than average intelligent members of society costing all society with their actions .


Vaccinations and Mask wearing being examples we are seeing right now.

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

You do believe in absolutes. You believe people should do what they want without respect for what affect it has on the society. I am not showing zero remorse for other people. I recognize their imperfections and the effects it has on society. You conflate communism and socialism with the social contract, and that is absolutism and ignorance of those around you.

I'll bite here even though I'm certain you are mixing things based on the fact that you have never spent any time in a communist/socialist society.
My opinion seems absolute to you because it requires input and understanding from both hostile (towards each other) environments which is something that you refuse to do cause I guess you believe that you are holding some higher moral ground.

Anyway...
Give me one example of an action that you speak of that has a negative effect on general society.
And please make sure that the example has a history that was long enough and was established to be correct in a long-term study.

To make this fair. Find me one such action that originated from the left and one that originated from the right. I mean, after all, you speak that you want what's best for all and all means every person living in the states no matter their color, religion, age or political affiliation.

Already been done upthread. You ignored it then and gaslighted on to your communism argument. it isn't a left vs right thing.
It is the less than average intelligent members of society costing all society with their actions .


Vaccinations and Mask wearing being examples we are seeing right now.

You talk like one. Sorry that you consider this as gaslighting.
Maybe try to choose different words if you think that what I say is wrong.

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

I'll bite here even though I'm certain you are mixing things based on the fact that you have never spent any time in a communist/socialist society.
My opinion seems absolute to you because it requires input and understanding from both hostile (towards each other) environments which is something that you refuse to do cause I guess you believe that you are holding some higher moral ground.

Anyway...
Give me one example of an action that you speak of that has a negative effect on general society.
And please make sure that the example has a history that was long enough and was established to be correct in a long-term study.

To make this fair. Find me one such action that originated from the left and one that originated from the right. I mean, after all, you speak that you want what's best for all and all means every person living in the states no matter their color, religion, age or political affiliation.

Already been done upthread. You ignored it then and gaslighted on to your communism argument. it isn't a left vs right thing.
It is the less than average intelligent members of society costing all society with their actions .


Vaccinations and Mask wearing being examples we are seeing right now.

You talk like one. Sorry that you consider this as gaslighting.
Maybe try to choose different words if you think that what I say is wrong.

Have a good weekend

It's hilarious how someone advocating a $0.00 minimum wage is suddenly equated to wanting slavery. Talk about missing the point!

Having no minimum wage allows the market to dictate what a fair wage is for whatever work is needed, and allows supply and demand to work itself out. For example, my airline is under a union contract for airport Customer Service Agents. The starting pay is $15.75/hr per the agreement. But, over the past few months, it has become impossible to keep people on the job at the SEA station - the turnover is horrendous. So, in a bid to gain more employees and reduce turnover, they've implemented a shift differential just for SEA that bumps the starting pay up to the equivalent of the 4th step of the contract, or about $18.49/hr.

This is a perfect illustration of how market forces of supply and demand allow both the employer and the employees to determine what the market will bear for a particular job, skill set, etc. Because supply was low and employees were willing to work elsewhere, AS had to raise wages to attract and retain people. And on a broad scale, that's how it works in every single job in the world - the job pays at the intersection of whatever someone is willing to pay vs. what the employee is willing to accept.

EA CO AS wrote:

It's hilarious how someone advocating a $0.00 minimum wage is suddenly equated to wanting slavery. Talk about missing the point!

Having no minimum wage allows the market to dictate what a fair wage is for whatever work is needed, and allows supply and demand to work itself out. For example, my airline is under a union contract for airport Customer Service Agents. The starting pay is $15.75/hr per the agreement. But, over the past few months, it has become impossible to keep people on the job at the SEA station - the turnover is horrendous. So, in a bid to gain more employees and reduce turnover, they've implemented a shift differential just for SEA that bumps the starting pay up to the equivalent of the 4th step of the contract, or about $18.49/hr.

This is a perfect illustration of how market forces of supply and demand allow both the employer and the employees to determine what the market will bear for a particular job, skill set, etc. Because supply was low and employees were willing to work elsewhere, AS had to raise wages to attract and retain people. And on a broad scale, that's how it works in every single job in the world - the job pays at the intersection of whatever someone is willing to pay vs. what the employee is willing to accept.

But that is a union contract in a tight economy. It doesn't affect right to work states or when the market goes south.

casinterest wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Already been done upthread. You ignored it then and gaslighted on to your communism argument. it isn't a left vs right thing.
It is the less than average intelligent members of society costing all society with their actions .


Vaccinations and Mask wearing being examples we are seeing right now.

You talk like one. Sorry that you consider this as gaslighting.
Maybe try to choose different words if you think that what I say is wrong.

Have a good weekend

Likewise.
Hope you'll have better weather than we do over here.

casinterest wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

It's hilarious how someone advocating a $0.00 minimum wage is suddenly equated to wanting slavery. Talk about missing the point!

Having no minimum wage allows the market to dictate what a fair wage is for whatever work is needed, and allows supply and demand to work itself out. For example, my airline is under a union contract for airport Customer Service Agents. The starting pay is $15.75/hr per the agreement. But, over the past few months, it has become impossible to keep people on the job at the SEA station - the turnover is horrendous. So, in a bid to gain more employees and reduce turnover, they've implemented a shift differential just for SEA that bumps the starting pay up to the equivalent of the 4th step of the contract, or about $18.49/hr.

This is a perfect illustration of how market forces of supply and demand allow both the employer and the employees to determine what the market will bear for a particular job, skill set, etc. Because supply was low and employees were willing to work elsewhere, AS had to raise wages to attract and retain people. And on a broad scale, that's how it works in every single job in the world - the job pays at the intersection of whatever someone is willing to pay vs. what the employee is willing to accept.

But that is a union contract in a tight economy. It doesn't affect right to work states or when the market goes south.

The fact that it's an adjustment to an existing CBA is irrelevant; at the end of the day you're still adjusting the wage - up or down - to reflect the realities of the marketplace. That's how it's supposed to work; if someone offers me a job paying X but I'm accustomed to making 2X, I just won't take the job. And then when they don't get me, they either take someone who has less experience and qualifications to justify only paying X, or they eventually adjust upward to 2X or more to attract talent.

EA CO AS wrote:

casinterest wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

It's hilarious how someone advocating a $0.00 minimum wage is suddenly equated to wanting slavery. Talk about missing the point!

Having no minimum wage allows the market to dictate what a fair wage is for whatever work is needed, and allows supply and demand to work itself out. For example, my airline is under a union contract for airport Customer Service Agents. The starting pay is $15.75/hr per the agreement. But, over the past few months, it has become impossible to keep people on the job at the SEA station - the turnover is horrendous. So, in a bid to gain more employees and reduce turnover, they've implemented a shift differential just for SEA that bumps the starting pay up to the equivalent of the 4th step of the contract, or about $18.49/hr.

This is a perfect illustration of how market forces of supply and demand allow both the employer and the employees to determine what the market will bear for a particular job, skill set, etc. Because supply was low and employees were willing to work elsewhere, AS had to raise wages to attract and retain people. And on a broad scale, that's how it works in every single job in the world - the job pays at the intersection of whatever someone is willing to pay vs. what the employee is willing to accept.

But that is a union contract in a tight economy. It doesn't affect right to work states or when the market goes south.

The fact that it's an adjustment to an existing CBA is irrelevant; at the end of the day you're still adjusting the wage - up or down - to reflect the realities of the marketplace. That's how it's supposed to work; if someone offers me a job paying X but I'm accustomed to making 2X, I just won't take the job. And then when they don't get me, they either take someone who has less experience and qualifications to justify only paying X, or they eventually adjust upward to 2X or more to attract talent.

Within that limited context, yes. The fact remains the starting wages for airport CSA are above minimum wage in an urban market, so it’s hard to say this has anything to do with Elder’s silly stance at all.

Aaron747 wrote:

Within that limited context, yes. The fact remains the starting wages for airport CSA are above minimum wage in an urban market, so it’s hard to say this has anything to do with Elder’s silly stance at all.

But it's not limited; ask anyone across the U.S. about what they've had to do in the past six months to attract and retain talent and they'll tell you all the same thing - when they can't get workers, they have to raise wages and benefits, or they figure out how to go without the help they need. And that's the market doing its job.

EA CO AS wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Within that limited context, yes. The fact remains the starting wages for airport CSA are above minimum wage in an urban market, so it’s hard to say this has anything to do with Elder’s silly stance at all.

But it's not limited; ask anyone across the U.S. about what they've had to do in the past six months to attract and retain talent and they'll tell you all the same thing - when they can't get workers, they have to raise wages and benefits, or they figure out how to go without the help they need. And that's the market doing its job.

That's moving the goalposts for the pandemic economy though - Elder's stance was categorical as an economic platform. Obviously that's not anything the general US public will accept, especially voters in California. So again, a kind of moot and foot-shooting point on his part.

PixelPilot wrote:

seb146 wrote:

PixelPilot wrote:

I'll bite here even though I'm certain you are mixing things based on the fact that you have never spent any time in a communist/socialist society.
My opinion seems absolute to you because it requires input and understanding from both hostile (towards each other) environments which is something that you refuse to do cause I guess you believe that you are holding some higher moral ground.

Anyway...
Give me one example of an action that you speak of that has a negative effect on general society.
And please make sure that the example has a history that was long enough and was established to be correct in a long-term study.

To make this fair. Find me one such action that originated from the left and one that originated from the right. I mean, after all, you speak that you want what's best for all and all means every person living in the states no matter their color, religion, age or political affiliation.

Interesting you think of communism and socialism as the same...

Look, homelessness exists in every corner of the world. Here in the United States, it exists in communist socialist states like California and Massachusetts as well as patriotic states like South Dakota and Alabama. See what I did there? Exactly what the media does. Throw out trigger words. Also, I find it interesting the media focuses on these social issues only in Democratic led states but not on Republican led states. California's homeless problem seems worse because there are more people in California than, say, South Dakota. California's drug problem seems worse because there are more people. All of it. Maybe compare apples to apples and you will notice a difference.

I strongly believe that people should understand the similarities/differences between communism and socialism a bit better especially when it comes to financial distribution.
Sure the HOW differs but ultimately they call for a very similar thing.
NOW the main difference is that gradual distribution CAN work in a democratic environment as long as you get everybody on board.
The Stalin quote was brought to this subject as a response to a perfect example of an authoritarian behavior that can be associated with how communists operate. By force. The lines of socialism and communism are getting blurrier by the day in this country because certain groups believe that they have the moral right to impose stuff on others.
For somebody that was never exposed to a different political environment, this might look nothing like it but to those that lived it, it does and some things are pretty obvious.
This is what I'm trying to point out.

Funny how that works. My wife was born, raised and spent the first 30 years of her life in a former SSR. Most of her family is still there, and I have spent a fair amount of time traveling there as well.

The topic of American politics comes up frequently in discussion, when they find out I'm an American. With only one exception I can think of, every adult I've talked with who spent the majority of their lives during "CCCP times" will tell you you must be absolutely stupid to want anything to do with socialism in any form.

Wow Rose McGowan voting Yes to recall Newsom and for Elder.

https://twitter.com/goodblackdude/statu ... 99041?s=20

NIKV69 wrote:

Wow Rose McGowan voting Yes to recall Newsom and for Elder.

https://twitter.com/goodblackdude/statu ... 99041?s=20

Possibly one of the most irrelevant celebs to quote. And little credibility on anything as a child molester apologist:

https://www.advocate.com/arts-entertain ... ife-l-word

Aaron747 wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

Wow Rose McGowan voting Yes to recall Newsom and for Elder.

https://twitter.com/goodblackdude/statu ... 99041?s=20

Possibly one of the most irrelevant celebs to quote. And little credibility on anything as a child molester apologist:

https://www.advocate.com/arts-entertain ... ife-l-word

Interesting how righties shift from "LIBERAL HOLYWOOD ELITE MEDIA TELLING US WHAT TO DO!!!!" to "oh, look at this well thought out and reasoned person expressing a rational opinion". When did it become offensive for Americans to have an opinion that goes against your own? My guess is: since the removal of the Fairness Doctrine.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ev ... -election/

Elder will need a miracle to win, but don't count him out.

At the same time, as Enten wrote over the weekend, there have been only four gubernatorial races since 1998 (out of 243) where the polling average missed by 15 points or more.

Overall, our assessment is that Newsom is a clear favorite to prevail. While an upset wouldn’t be unprecedented, it would qualify as a historically large polling miss.

My suspicion is that Texas laws, and Elder's own statements have probably drastically increased turnout. I doubt the Recall succeeds.