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dc10lover
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My "Solution" To The California Drought

Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:59 pm

Not only do we need to save water but we also need to save electricity. What if it gets so bad that Hoover Dam can not generate electricity? Or the other dams on the Colorado River. (My "Solution") Is it possible to send more electricity from dams on the Columbia River (In Washington State) to the State of California? Grand Coulee is the largest dam. Plus we have Rocky Reach, Rock Island and the Bonneville Dam. California is in a drought while the Columbia River floods almost every year now. So much snow melt that starts in Canada flows down the Columbia River.

Another thought: ( If we can do the above) Hoover Dam and the other dams close by (on the Colorado River) would stop releasing water to generate electricity and use ALL the water for Cities, People and Farmers. Would this be a way to help Lake Mead fill to capacity again? I really wish I knew the answer. Plus I read on the internet, that in Washington State, they actually shut down the electric wind generators because according to officials, the dams on the Columbia River are generating "too much electricity" during the late Spring and early Summer snow melt.
 
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c933103
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:16 pm

eh. Water being used to generate electricity wouldn't vanish after crossing the dam. They're still water that can be used for various purposes?
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:26 pm

I saw a video that had the concept of putting solar panels over rivers and canals to reduce evaporation as well as some electricity generation.
 
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Aesma
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:53 pm

Yes, that's done in India.

Water needs to be released by dams anyway otherwise you kill everything in the rivers. What would be helpful (but difficult) would be to divert water from the north to Cali.

Alternatively, reduce agriculture in Cali and develop it more in the north. That's climate change for you.
 
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c933103
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:12 am

Or just build some water desalination plant.
I guess they can also work as a load balancer for renewable energy, and only desalinate sea water into reservoir when the power supply are high and power emand are low?
 
LCDFlight
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:57 am

There should be no water shortage. Instead, water should be priced so that a sustainable amount is drawn from the river. Agriculture should occur where it is viable, not in the middle of the desert.

This whole issue is about a stupid legal privilege on "water rights" that needs to be reversed at the federal level.

Urban uses can continue as normal. They are not problem. Agriculture accounts for around 80% of the water use in California. According to KCRW article, "almond farmers alone use as much water as the cities of L.A. and San Francisco combined." This is a complete joke.

https://www.kcrw.com/news/articles/brow ... ater-break
Last edited by LCDFlight on Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
luckyone
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:58 am

Or how about we don’t populate with tens of millions of people and/or launch large scale agriculture in areas that require transporting water long distances from elsewhere…just a thought that served our ancestors well.
 
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casinterest
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:09 am

LCDFlight wrote:
There should be no water shortage. Instead, water should be priced so that a sustainable amount is drawn from the river. Agriculture should occur where it is viable, not in the middle of the desert.

This whole issue is about a stupid legal privilege on "water rights" that needs to be reversed at the federal level.

Urban uses can continue as normal. They are not problem. Agriculture accounts for around 80% of the water use in California. According to KCRW article, "almond farmers alone use as much water as the cities of L.A. and San Francisco combined." This is a complete joke.

https://www.kcrw.com/news/articles/brow ... ater-break



The whole issue is that there are more water rights than there is water. Especially in drought years. The issue with Urban use is whether it is reclaimed, and where it is lost. One could argue that the reclaimed water should be used by the farmers and growers instead of being on the main supply line.
 
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seb146
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:34 am

IIRC, John Day Dam and The Dalles Dam provide electricity as needed to Southern California. What Columbia River floods? The WIllamette floods sometimes, but I don't remember the Columbia flooding.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:43 am

Bonneville Power (Columbia River mostly) sends a lot of power to California, and has for a few decades. Oddly enough, California has enough renewable that Bonneville has lost a lot of that market.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie
 
B777LRF
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:13 am

An even better solution would be to curb the massive amounts of water used per capita in the US.

The US has the second highest water usage per capita in the world, at around 1200 cubic meters annually. Australia, a very arid continent as we all know, is using 580. Denmark, where I'm from, is using just short of 200. Surely there's massive scope for improvement, rather than contemplating idiotic ideas such as covering rivers with solar panels!

As for power generation, just build more nuclear powerstations. If you've forgotten how, give the French a call.
 
bpatus297
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:17 pm

B777LRF wrote:
An even better solution would be to curb the massive amounts of water used per capita in the US.

The US has the second highest water usage per capita in the world, at around 1200 cubic meters annually. Australia, a very arid continent as we all know, is using 580. Denmark, where I'm from, is using just short of 200. Surely there's massive scope for improvement, rather than contemplating idiotic ideas such as covering rivers with solar panels!

As for power generation, just build more nuclear powerstations. If you've forgotten how, give the French a call.


To put the water usage into context, the US is the worlds largest food exporter and Australia is the 8th largest food exporter. Having live quite a bit of my life in the Southwest, I can tell you that the water issue is a very complex issue. You can't just simply say we need to curb the water usage, its not that simple


https://share.america.gov/u-s-farmers-feed-world/

https://www.foodexport.org/export-insig ... ry-profile
 
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Aesma
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:46 pm

Stop subsidizing corn for a start.
 
B777LRF
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:23 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
An even better solution would be to curb the massive amounts of water used per capita in the US.

The US has the second highest water usage per capita in the world, at around 1200 cubic meters annually. Australia, a very arid continent as we all know, is using 580. Denmark, where I'm from, is using just short of 200. Surely there's massive scope for improvement, rather than contemplating idiotic ideas such as covering rivers with solar panels!

As for power generation, just build more nuclear powerstations. If you've forgotten how, give the French a call.


To put the water usage into context, the US is the worlds largest food exporter and Australia is the 8th largest food exporter. Having live quite a bit of my life in the Southwest, I can tell you that the water issue is a very complex issue. You can't just simply say we need to curb the water usage, its not that simple


https://share.america.gov/u-s-farmers-feed-world/

https://www.foodexport.org/export-insig ... ry-profile


There is no doubt agriculture is a huge consumer of water, as are other industries. But that's not the full picture. The average US household consumes more than double the water of an average DE, FR, UK one. And the reason for that is extremely simple: Water is cheap in the US. One might argue it's perhaps too cheap, and that rasing the price of water to reduce private usage - which can be relatively easily done with absolutely no adverse consequences - would be a place to start. Without, of course, neglecting that industry as well as agriculture will also have to learn to do more with less and eliminate wastage.
 
bpatus297
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:36 pm

B777LRF wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
An even better solution would be to curb the massive amounts of water used per capita in the US.

The US has the second highest water usage per capita in the world, at around 1200 cubic meters annually. Australia, a very arid continent as we all know, is using 580. Denmark, where I'm from, is using just short of 200. Surely there's massive scope for improvement, rather than contemplating idiotic ideas such as covering rivers with solar panels!

As for power generation, just build more nuclear powerstations. If you've forgotten how, give the French a call.


To put the water usage into context, the US is the worlds largest food exporter and Australia is the 8th largest food exporter. Having live quite a bit of my life in the Southwest, I can tell you that the water issue is a very complex issue. You can't just simply say we need to curb the water usage, its not that simple


https://share.america.gov/u-s-farmers-feed-world/

https://www.foodexport.org/export-insig ... ry-profile


There is no doubt agriculture is a huge consumer of water, as are other industries. But that's not the full picture. The average US household consumes more than double the water of an average DE, FR, UK one. And the reason for that is extremely simple: Water is cheap in the US. One might argue it's perhaps too cheap, and that rasing the price of water to reduce private usage - which can be relatively easily done with absolutely no adverse consequences - would be a place to start. Without, of course, neglecting that industry as well as agriculture will also have to learn to do more with less and eliminate wastage.


Why would you want to raise the price of water just to curb it's use? Other than certain areas, there isn't an issue with availability.
 
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seb146
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:07 pm

I wonder...

There is a lot of useable land no one wants in much of Southern California. Would it be cost effective to run pipes from the ocean to a desalinization plant (powered by solar) in, say, Lancaster, then draining that water into the California Aqueduct?
 
dc10lover
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:49 pm

c933103 wrote:
eh. Water being used to generate electricity wouldn't vanish after crossing the dam. They're still water that can be used for various purposes?

But they mainly draw water from Lake Mead. Not sure if they draw water just below Hoover Dam.
 
dc10lover
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:01 pm

seb146 wrote:
IIRC, John Day Dam and The Dalles Dam provide electricity as needed to Southern California. What Columbia River floods? The WIllamette floods sometimes, but I don't remember the Columbia flooding.

"Columbia River Rising In Wenatchee, Washington" https://youtu.be/P73CYlQlf8Q Every year seems the Columbia River floods its banks.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:31 pm

All of the dams along the Columbia and Snake rivers 'dump' power into the grid. It is somewhat inaccurate to say California gets their power from any particular dam, if I understand how that grid works.
 
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zkojq
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:33 pm

luckyone wrote:
Or how about we don’t populate with tens of millions of people and/or launch large scale agriculture in areas that require transporting water long distances from elsewhere…just a thought that served our ancestors well.


This.

If your farm depended on vast quantities of water being drawn from Acquifers unsustainably (ie at a faster rate than said Acquifer is being replenished) or being imported from afar, then you need to accept that it's viability is entirely superficial. It needs to be accepted that, in drought conditions and in an age of climate change with lower snow/rainfall, your farm is living on borrowed time.

I'm a big believer in in building large scale Desalination Plants, but these are expensive and the fresh water they produce will be expensive too - especially compared to water you can just pump out of the ground. Like I said, at some point you have to accept that agriculture in certain areas just isn't viable.

Letting rivers run dry and all the fish (+ other associated wildlife) die inorder to try and artificially subsidized that agriculture for a few more years really isn't a very smart idea.

That's obviously of little comfort for those who own and operate the affected farms - many of whom have put huge efforts in trying to make them viable, but unfortunately reality is often unkind.

This is also why it's absolutely insane when people try to pretend that a 1.5 degree Celcius raise in temperatures isn't a big deal. 1.5 degrees makes a massive difference to phenomena like how much rain becomes snow and all the downstream effects of that happening (or not happening).
 
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Tugger
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:51 pm

I'm don't think backing off on food production is smart. Andd most farms aren't started without adequate water, it happens as urban populations swell and take more and as rain patterns change etc. And you don't know FOR SURE how much wetter or dryer coming years will be. Yes I do believe climate science etc.but that still isn't gong to change the large scale situation where farms and population centers will need water.

My solution is large scale desal paid for by the inland states that need the water. They can also provide the power for the service. They wodul get water either by the coastal state not taking their "portion", instead using the desal. Or desal water could be pumped reverse through existing or new infrastructure to reservoirs they draw from etc.

The other option is to tunnel under the Rockies and use excess water that causes floods downstream to fill/store in western reservoirs. Though I suspect mid-west farmers would rather pump that into their own aquifers.

All multi billions dollar propositions of course that would require multi-state agreements. (The west water states could do it but I am not sure if the mid-west east would be up to it having not lived it as the west has.)

Tugg
 
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c933103
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:49 am

zkojq wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Or how about we don’t populate with tens of millions of people and/or launch large scale agriculture in areas that require transporting water long distances from elsewhere…just a thought that served our ancestors well.


This.

If your farm depended on vast quantities of water being drawn from Acquifers unsustainably (ie at a faster rate than said Acquifer is being replenished) or being imported from afar, then you need to accept that it's viability is entirely superficial. It needs to be accepted that, in drought conditions and in an age of climate change with lower snow/rainfall, your farm is living on borrowed time.

I'm a big believer in in building large scale Desalination Plants, but these are expensive and the fresh water they produce will be expensive too - especially compared to water you can just pump out of the ground. Like I said, at some point you have to accept that agriculture in certain areas just isn't viable.

Letting rivers run dry and all the fish (+ other associated wildlife) die inorder to try and artificially subsidized that agriculture for a few more years really isn't a very smart idea.

That's obviously of little comfort for those who own and operate the affected farms - many of whom have put huge efforts in trying to make them viable, but unfortunately reality is often unkind.

This is also why it's absolutely insane when people try to pretend that a 1.5 degree Celcius raise in temperatures isn't a big deal. 1.5 degrees makes a massive difference to phenomena like how much rain becomes snow and all the downstream effects of that happening (or not happening).

Just add the price of water on bills send to farmers to the level that would match desalination plant cost level. Then they would decide whether it's economical to use their water the way they're using.
 
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seb146
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:13 am

c933103 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Or how about we don’t populate with tens of millions of people and/or launch large scale agriculture in areas that require transporting water long distances from elsewhere…just a thought that served our ancestors well.


This.

If your farm depended on vast quantities of water being drawn from Acquifers unsustainably (ie at a faster rate than said Acquifer is being replenished) or being imported from afar, then you need to accept that it's viability is entirely superficial. It needs to be accepted that, in drought conditions and in an age of climate change with lower snow/rainfall, your farm is living on borrowed time.

I'm a big believer in in building large scale Desalination Plants, but these are expensive and the fresh water they produce will be expensive too - especially compared to water you can just pump out of the ground. Like I said, at some point you have to accept that agriculture in certain areas just isn't viable.

Letting rivers run dry and all the fish (+ other associated wildlife) die inorder to try and artificially subsidized that agriculture for a few more years really isn't a very smart idea.

That's obviously of little comfort for those who own and operate the affected farms - many of whom have put huge efforts in trying to make them viable, but unfortunately reality is often unkind.

This is also why it's absolutely insane when people try to pretend that a 1.5 degree Celcius raise in temperatures isn't a big deal. 1.5 degrees makes a massive difference to phenomena like how much rain becomes snow and all the downstream effects of that happening (or not happening).

Just add the price of water on bills send to farmers to the level that would match desalination plant cost level. Then they would decide whether it's economical to use their water the way they're using.


But do Americans need thousands of calories per day to survive? Look at the portions we are given at restaurants and look at our obesity and heart disease and diabetes and liver disease rates. I am not saying "don't eat" because we need food. Maybe just dial it back a notch or two?
 
B777LRF
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:22 am

bpatus297 wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

To put the water usage into context, the US is the worlds largest food exporter and Australia is the 8th largest food exporter. Having live quite a bit of my life in the Southwest, I can tell you that the water issue is a very complex issue. You can't just simply say we need to curb the water usage, its not that simple


https://share.america.gov/u-s-farmers-feed-world/

https://www.foodexport.org/export-insig ... ry-profile


There is no doubt agriculture is a huge consumer of water, as are other industries. But that's not the full picture. The average US household consumes more than double the water of an average DE, FR, UK one. And the reason for that is extremely simple: Water is cheap in the US. One might argue it's perhaps too cheap, and that rasing the price of water to reduce private usage - which can be relatively easily done with absolutely no adverse consequences - would be a place to start. Without, of course, neglecting that industry as well as agriculture will also have to learn to do more with less and eliminate wastage.


Why would you want to raise the price of water just to curb it's use? Other than certain areas, there isn't an issue with availability.


Because it's a precious resource, and just because you have enough of it here and now doesn't mean you should be free to waste it. I read an article the other day on the topic, and it identified one key reason why American households consume so much more water to a comparable European one: The cheapness of water in the US. US households could, if there was a will to it, reduce their water consumption by 50% without any detrimental effects what so ever.

Applying taxation is a tried and tested method of regulating behaviour; lower it to encourage something, raise to discourage.
 
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c933103
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:30 am

seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
zkojq wrote:

This.

If your farm depended on vast quantities of water being drawn from Acquifers unsustainably (ie at a faster rate than said Acquifer is being replenished) or being imported from afar, then you need to accept that it's viability is entirely superficial. It needs to be accepted that, in drought conditions and in an age of climate change with lower snow/rainfall, your farm is living on borrowed time.

I'm a big believer in in building large scale Desalination Plants, but these are expensive and the fresh water they produce will be expensive too - especially compared to water you can just pump out of the ground. Like I said, at some point you have to accept that agriculture in certain areas just isn't viable.

Letting rivers run dry and all the fish (+ other associated wildlife) die inorder to try and artificially subsidized that agriculture for a few more years really isn't a very smart idea.

That's obviously of little comfort for those who own and operate the affected farms - many of whom have put huge efforts in trying to make them viable, but unfortunately reality is often unkind.

This is also why it's absolutely insane when people try to pretend that a 1.5 degree Celcius raise in temperatures isn't a big deal. 1.5 degrees makes a massive difference to phenomena like how much rain becomes snow and all the downstream effects of that happening (or not happening).

Just add the price of water on bills send to farmers to the level that would match desalination plant cost level. Then they would decide whether it's economical to use their water the way they're using.


But do Americans need thousands of calories per day to survive? Look at the portions we are given at restaurants and look at our obesity and heart disease and diabetes and liver disease rates. I am not saying "don't eat" because we need food. Maybe just dial it back a notch or two?

American also export their food. American reducing food production without market force somehow balancing it bad would cause global food supply problem, as have been attempted when they were aggressively turning soy bean into fuel
 
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Aaron747
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:51 am

Tugger wrote:
I'm don't think backing off on food production is smart. Andd most farms aren't started without adequate water, it happens as urban populations swell and take more and as rain patterns change etc. And you don't know FOR SURE how much wetter or dryer coming years will be. Yes I do believe climate science etc.but that still isn't gong to change the large scale situation where farms and population centers will need water.

My solution is large scale desal paid for by the inland states that need the water. They can also provide the power for the service. They wodul get water either by the coastal state not taking their "portion", instead using the desal. Or desal water could be pumped reverse through existing or new infrastructure to reservoirs they draw from etc.

The other option is to tunnel under the Rockies and use excess water that causes floods downstream to fill/store in western reservoirs. Though I suspect mid-west farmers would rather pump that into their own aquifers.

All multi billions dollar propositions of course that would require multi-state agreements. (The west water states could do it but I am not sure if the mid-west east would be up to it having not lived it as the west has.)

Tugg


One of my best friends is a professor of ecology and he has spent years advocating a three-pronged approach: 1. major increase in vertical farming to reduce wastewater volume, pesticide use, and evaporative loss. Also solves the agriculture/wilderness wildlife impact issue 2. enhancement of wastewater treatment plants in inland urban areas to serve most secondary freshwater needs 3. hydroelectric desal - strategically locate desal plants so that their high energy use is part of the water system. The biggest issue with desal is its potential to disrupt local oceanic food chains - the brine waste is a serious technical challenge.
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:24 am

Many countries have features like half flush toilets or shower restrictors which save considerable amounts of water - average household probably saves around 100L/26gal of water per day (36,000L/9490gal or enough for a typical home swimming pool) just from those 2 measures alone.
But as others have pointed out it is mostly agricultural uses that are causing the problems in CA.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:31 pm

A market solution would be to slowly raise the price of water to match the costs and values of that water. I used the plural 'costs', because like all of this it is complicated. Few large irrigation systems were built without heavy subsidies, maybe that should be paid back. The current costs of running the irrigation system may not be covered. The water distribution system could be said to be a business which could maximize profits, who is willing to pay and how much for that water. Who does that water really belong to. My solution is the first, slowly raise the price.
 
IADCA
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:02 pm

Tugger wrote:
Andd most farms aren't started without adequate water, it happens as urban populations swell and take more and as rain patterns change etc.


Really? There are millions of acres of farms in the Great Plains that were started with inadequate water and turned into the Dust Bowl when the soil blew away in drought years. Then people started pumping up the Ogalalla aquifer and farming most of that land again. When that aquifer runs dry in a couple decades, then...?

Same thing in the West using surface water. Farmland in California that is artificially irrigated uses almost 30% of the total irrigation water used in the United States. Even compared to Nebraska - a major drainer of the Ogallala - California uses nearly six times the irrigation volume per acre, irrigating 1.1 million more acres with five times the water use. Water use in California for agriculture dwarfs use there for urban uses by a factor of roughly 4:1, and per-capita water use is falling at a faster rate in urban areas than it ever has in agriculture.

So no, the problem here is growing water-intensive crops on land that does not have enough natural water, and leaving no margin for dry years. This is a human-caused problem, and that problem is unsustainable farming practices. Growing cotton in Arizona, FFS.

Also, charging "inland states" for the desal...um, if California is going to charge Nevada for ocean water, then why doesn't Nevada charge California for the Colorado River?
 
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ER757
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:00 pm

luckyone wrote:
Or how about we don’t populate with tens of millions of people and/or launch large scale agriculture in areas that require transporting water long distances from elsewhere…just a thought that served our ancestors well.

Very good point, but that ship has sailed. So, since wholesale relocation of the population is out of the question and there are few areas with the ideal climate for all the food production that comes from the Central Valley, other solutions are necessary. Desalination is the most obvious but there are drawback to that as well. A long pipeline from Alaska? Insanely expensive but do-able. What are others?
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:51 pm

You can't tell people to lower electricity usage and advocate for electric cars at the same time.
I really wanna see California (or any other state for that matter) keeping all those teslas running when people really jump the ship. (I'll leave the subject of battery discarding to another topic ;) )
 
LCDFlight
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:44 pm

ER757 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Or how about we don’t populate with tens of millions of people and/or launch large scale agriculture in areas that require transporting water long distances from elsewhere…just a thought that served our ancestors well.

Very good point, but that ship has sailed. So, since wholesale relocation of the population is out of the question and there are few areas with the ideal climate for all the food production that comes from the Central Valley, other solutions are necessary. Desalination is the most obvious but there are drawback to that as well. A long pipeline from Alaska? Insanely expensive but do-able. What are others?


AFAIK, food prices in the US are quite low. We don't need the production. You say other areas don't have the ideal climate? Do California deserts have an ideal climate to grow food? This is a special interest group of a few dozen rich families. And the reason they are rich is the government gives them too much free water to grow food in the desert.
 
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ER757
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Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:49 am

LCDFlight wrote:
ER757 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Or how about we don’t populate with tens of millions of people and/or launch large scale agriculture in areas that require transporting water long distances from elsewhere…just a thought that served our ancestors well.

Very good point, but that ship has sailed. So, since wholesale relocation of the population is out of the question and there are few areas with the ideal climate for all the food production that comes from the Central Valley, other solutions are necessary. Desalination is the most obvious but there are drawback to that as well. A long pipeline from Alaska? Insanely expensive but do-able. What are others?


AFAIK, food prices in the US are quite low. We don't need the production. You say other areas don't have the ideal climate? Do California deserts have an ideal climate to grow food? This is a special interest group of a few dozen rich families. And the reason they are rich is the government gives them too much free water to grow food in the desert.

No, it doesn't have the ideal climate, hence the need for irrigation. But find somewhere else that has as long a growing season as well as one that gets enough rain that irrigation isn't needed. That was my point. Those places are few and far between so either the Central Valley gets the water or we lose half the produce crop of the USA. And yes, we do need the food - try seeing what it would be like when half the fruits and veggies in the supermarket are gone. Maybe less fountains in Las Vegas and less golf courses in Phoenix. Those we CAN do without if it gets down to it. I'd rather have broccoli than a place to hit the little white ball.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5150
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:14 am

Las Vegas, including the casinos, have done a great job on per capita water consumption.
 
CowAnon
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:03 am

Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:04 am

ER757 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
ER757 wrote:
Very good point, but that ship has sailed. So, since wholesale relocation of the population is out of the question and there are few areas with the ideal climate for all the food production that comes from the Central Valley, other solutions are necessary. Desalination is the most obvious but there are drawback to that as well. A long pipeline from Alaska? Insanely expensive but do-able. What are others?


AFAIK, food prices in the US are quite low. We don't need the production. You say other areas don't have the ideal climate? Do California deserts have an ideal climate to grow food? This is a special interest group of a few dozen rich families. And the reason they are rich is the government gives them too much free water to grow food in the desert.

No, it doesn't have the ideal climate, hence the need for irrigation. But find somewhere else that has as long a growing season as well as one that gets enough rain that irrigation isn't needed. That was my point. Those places are few and far between so either the Central Valley gets the water or we lose half the produce crop of the USA. And yes, we do need the food - try seeing what it would be like when half the fruits and veggies in the supermarket are gone. Maybe less fountains in Las Vegas and less golf courses in Phoenix. Those we CAN do without if it gets down to it. I'd rather have broccoli than a place to hit the little white ball.

Cover the Central Valley with housing to reduce water demand and end runaway property values on the coast. Then grow the produce in Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama instead. There's plenty of sun, water, and fertile soil over there.
 
dc10lover
Topic Author
Posts: 1679
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:47 am

LCDFlight wrote:
ER757 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Or how about we don’t populate with tens of millions of people and/or launch large scale agriculture in areas that require transporting water long distances from elsewhere…just a thought that served our ancestors well.

Very good point, but that ship has sailed. So, since wholesale relocation of the population is out of the question and there are few areas with the ideal climate for all the food production that comes from the Central Valley, other solutions are necessary. Desalination is the most obvious but there are drawback to that as well. A long pipeline from Alaska? Insanely expensive but do-able. What are others?


AFAIK, food prices in the US are quite low. We don't need the production. You say other areas don't have the ideal climate? Do California deserts have an ideal climate to grow food? This is a special interest group of a few dozen rich families. And the reason they are rich is the government gives them too much free water to grow food in the desert.

California has the climate plus the sun. All they need is Water.
 
dc10lover
Topic Author
Posts: 1679
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:50 am

CowAnon wrote:
ER757 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:

AFAIK, food prices in the US are quite low. We don't need the production. You say other areas don't have the ideal climate? Do California deserts have an ideal climate to grow food? This is a special interest group of a few dozen rich families. And the reason they are rich is the government gives them too much free water to grow food in the desert.

No, it doesn't have the ideal climate, hence the need for irrigation. But find somewhere else that has as long a growing season as well as one that gets enough rain that irrigation isn't needed. That was my point. Those places are few and far between so either the Central Valley gets the water or we lose half the produce crop of the USA. And yes, we do need the food - try seeing what it would be like when half the fruits and veggies in the supermarket are gone. Maybe less fountains in Las Vegas and less golf courses in Phoenix. Those we CAN do without if it gets down to it. I'd rather have broccoli than a place to hit the little white ball.

Cover the Central Valley with housing to reduce water demand and end runaway property values on the coast. Then grow the produce in Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama instead. There's plenty of sun, water, and fertile soil over there.

If they can grow food and such all year long.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5150
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:38 pm

I may have already posted this link. But here is an academic engineer who looks at the history of how civilizations use water, and then deals with the waste we add to water. Solutions are possible, and a lot of them are not all that expensive. Only if we use 'old think' to solve new problems.

https://www.amazon.com/Water-4-0-Presen ... 0300212674
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1367
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:24 pm

dc10lover wrote:
CowAnon wrote:
ER757 wrote:
No, it doesn't have the ideal climate, hence the need for irrigation. But find somewhere else that has as long a growing season as well as one that gets enough rain that irrigation isn't needed. That was my point. Those places are few and far between so either the Central Valley gets the water or we lose half the produce crop of the USA. And yes, we do need the food - try seeing what it would be like when half the fruits and veggies in the supermarket are gone. Maybe less fountains in Las Vegas and less golf courses in Phoenix. Those we CAN do without if it gets down to it. I'd rather have broccoli than a place to hit the little white ball.

Cover the Central Valley with housing to reduce water demand and end runaway property values on the coast. Then grow the produce in Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama instead. There's plenty of sun, water, and fertile soil over there.

If they can grow food and such all year long.


There just isn’t any question on food supplies. Sorry. If we have to ship some more fruit up from Mexico or Bolivia, no problem. Price per fruit will go up a cent or so - or it might actually go down, depending on the tariffs involved currently. I know there is a tariff on sugar to protect rich Florida sugar farm plantation owners. Would not be surprised if the same thing is helping California fruit and vegetable growers. Anyway, US residents can easily afford fruit and vegetables no matter what. People in poor countries afford it easily. US residents have dozens of times more money. Food security in the US is one of the most puzzling fake issues people bring up. We Have way too much food, not too little.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5150
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:19 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
dc10lover wrote:
CowAnon wrote:
Cover the Central Valley with housing to reduce water demand and end runaway property values on the coast. Then grow the produce in Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama instead. There's plenty of sun, water, and fertile soil over there.

If they can grow food and such all year long.


There just isn’t any question on food supplies. Sorry. If we have to ship some more fruit up from Mexico or Bolivia, no problem. Price per fruit will go up a cent or so - or it might actually go down, depending on the tariffs involved currently. I know there is a tariff on sugar to protect rich Florida sugar farm plantation owners. Would not be surprised if the same thing is helping California fruit and vegetable growers. Anyway, US residents can easily afford fruit and vegetables no matter what. People in poor countries afford it easily. US residents have dozens of times more money. Food security in the US is one of the most puzzling fake issues people bring up. We Have way too much food, not too little.


I think this is largely right. Also some semi-industrial solutions for fruit and veggie production closer to metropolitan areas may be feasible.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14853
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:31 pm

Just so we're clear, "water rights" means that farmers don't pay anything for water, right ? Or is there maybe an infrastructure fee (for the dams etc.) ?
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5150
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:55 pm

Often it means just that.
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 4273
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:45 pm

Aesma wrote:
Just so we're clear, "water rights" means that farmers don't pay anything for water, right ? Or is there maybe an infrastructure fee (for the dams etc.) ?

Water rights refers to the allocation, not necessarily cost
 
bpatus297
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:52 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
dc10lover wrote:
CowAnon wrote:
Cover the Central Valley with housing to reduce water demand and end runaway property values on the coast. Then grow the produce in Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama instead. There's plenty of sun, water, and fertile soil over there.

If they can grow food and such all year long.


There just isn’t any question on food supplies. Sorry. If we have to ship some more fruit up from Mexico or Bolivia, no problem. Price per fruit will go up a cent or so - or it might actually go down, depending on the tariffs involved currently. I know there is a tariff on sugar to protect rich Florida sugar farm plantation owners. Would not be surprised if the same thing is helping California fruit and vegetable growers. Anyway, US residents can easily afford fruit and vegetables no matter what. People in poor countries afford it easily. US residents have dozens of times more money. Food security in the US is one of the most puzzling fake issues people bring up. We Have way too much food, not too little.


Do you think that Mexico and other nations we import food from don't have similar water issues? Is this a NIMBY thing?


https://www.nbcnews.com/science/environ ... k-rcna1331
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1367
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:17 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
dc10lover wrote:
If they can grow food and such all year long.


There just isn’t any question on food supplies. Sorry. If we have to ship some more fruit up from Mexico or Bolivia, no problem. Price per fruit will go up a cent or so - or it might actually go down, depending on the tariffs involved currently. I know there is a tariff on sugar to protect rich Florida sugar farm plantation owners. Would not be surprised if the same thing is helping California fruit and vegetable growers. Anyway, US residents can easily afford fruit and vegetables no matter what. People in poor countries afford it easily. US residents have dozens of times more money. Food security in the US is one of the most puzzling fake issues people bring up. We Have way too much food, not too little.


Do you think that Mexico and other nations we import food from don't have similar water issues? Is this a NIMBY thing?


https://www.nbcnews.com/science/environ ... k-rcna1331


Overall, the water supply is shrinking somewhat. The Us is definitely leaving Mexico with less water than it previously had. I am not denying the issues. Made a couple of points, (1) there is plenty of water for urban users and (2) although some farming needs to shrink or relocate, it is not a big problem because food is generally plentiful worldwide.

The one problem I left out is that truly poor people in Haiti or Honduras may be affected by rising food prices if the Americans import more food. They may have weak food security. The Us does not. Our food security is very high. Just proposing a solution to the California problem. Reallocate water rights and it is solved.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 14172
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:05 pm

The expensive answer is that more water is needed than is available. This will require many different approaches for different areas in the affected areas.

Desalination
Water Conservation
Rate Changes
Environmental concerns
Cisterns,
Storage allotments
Redircection from Viable Aquifers and water basins.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5150
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:24 pm

casinterest wrote:
The expensive answer is that more water is needed than is available. This will require many different approaches for different areas in the affected areas.

Desalination
Water Conservation
Rate Changes
Environmental concerns
Cisterns,
Storage allotments
Redircection from Viable Aquifers and water basins.


Let me rewrite your opening sentence, The moderately more expensive answer is that available water will cover the wests' needs if we are willing to do the right things - and not do the wrong things.

Why, in heaven's name would sensible people allow the farming of cotton, hay, and alfalfa on industrial levels in the middle of a near desert? That alone may be good for putting off a crisis for a few years.
 
IADCA
Posts: 2417
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:07 pm

casinterest wrote:
The expensive answer is that more water is needed than is available. This will require many different approaches for different areas in the affected areas.

Desalination
Water Conservation
Rate Changes
Environmental concerns
Cisterns,
Storage allotments
Redircection from Viable Aquifers and water basins.


I don't mean to pick on you personally, but your first sentence is exactly what's wrong with the thinking around water management in the US.

It's not that there's more water "needed" than available. There is plenty of water available for necessary things like drinking. What it isn't sufficient for is growing surplus food crops and cash crops on land that naturally doesn't have sufficient rainfall. It's not "need": it simply boils down to a desire to use a scarce resource like water as if it were infinite, all in a pursuit of money. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's not like we're talking about subsistence farmers starving here. We're talking about growing non-native plants in areas where the reason for their non-nativity is blindingly obvious. The real question shouldn't be what should be done to provide water for cotton farming in Arizona: it should be why anyone thought that was a reasonable idea in the first place.

I get that we're a society that thinks nothing of burning rocks to propel mined metal tubes thousands of feet through the air, but there does come a point where "because some fleshbag wants to make a few dollars" isn't a sufficient justification.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 14172
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:18 pm

IADCA wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The expensive answer is that more water is needed than is available. This will require many different approaches for different areas in the affected areas.

Desalination
Water Conservation
Rate Changes
Environmental concerns
Cisterns,
Storage allotments
Redircection from Viable Aquifers and water basins.


I don't mean to pick on you personally, but your first sentence is exactly what's wrong with the thinking around water management in the US.

It's not that there's more water "needed" than available. There is plenty of water available for necessary things like drinking. What it isn't sufficient for is growing surplus food crops and cash crops on land that naturally doesn't have sufficient rainfall. It's not "need": it simply boils down to a desire to use a scarce resource like water as if it were infinite, all in a pursuit of money. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's not like we're talking about subsistence farmers starving here. We're talking about growing non-native plants in areas where the reason for their non-nativity is blindingly obvious. The real question shouldn't be what should be done to provide water for cotton farming in Arizona: it should be why anyone thought that was a reasonable idea in the first place.

I get that we're a society that thinks nothing of burning rocks to propel mined metal tubes thousands of feet through the air, but there does come a point where "because some fleshbag wants to make a few dollars" isn't a sufficient justification.


There is plenty of water , it is a matter of properly allocating it and paying for it.
Paying for it is the restriction that should be imposed. When there is a full drought, water runs out, and the crops either become unsustainable ,or the people need to have water shipped in

Long term environmental issues require long term solutions. Deserts have been irrigated for centuries. You going to ask everyone to move out of the Nile Delta?
 
IADCA
Posts: 2417
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: My "Solution" To The California Drought

Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:30 pm

casinterest wrote:
IADCA wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The expensive answer is that more water is needed than is available. This will require many different approaches for different areas in the affected areas.

Desalination
Water Conservation
Rate Changes
Environmental concerns
Cisterns,
Storage allotments
Redircection from Viable Aquifers and water basins.


I don't mean to pick on you personally, but your first sentence is exactly what's wrong with the thinking around water management in the US.

It's not that there's more water "needed" than available. There is plenty of water available for necessary things like drinking. What it isn't sufficient for is growing surplus food crops and cash crops on land that naturally doesn't have sufficient rainfall. It's not "need": it simply boils down to a desire to use a scarce resource like water as if it were infinite, all in a pursuit of money. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's not like we're talking about subsistence farmers starving here. We're talking about growing non-native plants in areas where the reason for their non-nativity is blindingly obvious. The real question shouldn't be what should be done to provide water for cotton farming in Arizona: it should be why anyone thought that was a reasonable idea in the first place.

I get that we're a society that thinks nothing of burning rocks to propel mined metal tubes thousands of feet through the air, but there does come a point where "because some fleshbag wants to make a few dollars" isn't a sufficient justification.


There is plenty of water , it is a matter of properly allocating it and paying for it.
Paying for it is the restriction that should be imposed. When there is a full drought, water runs out, and the crops either become unsustainable ,or the people need to have water shipped in

Long term environmental issues require long term solutions. Deserts have been irrigated for centuries. You going to ask everyone to move out of the Nile Delta?


No, but the Nile Delta doesn't require sluicing water hundreds of miles, and the Egyptians have never been silly enough to try to irrigate so much land that the river runs dry before it reaches the sea.

Paying for it simply permits use by whomever can make the most money off the water, not where it's most useful on an overall societal level or what is environmentally sustainable. The appropriative water rights system should be eliminated entirely.

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