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Kiwirob
Posts: 13630
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:34 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
When its not the government fault (because they are of my leaning) its society's fault.
Society fault means, it would never be fixed, unless the entire societal structure is dismantled. And yes, by government's force.

I wonder why we don't see that on some other cities and just some cities.


Does apportioning blame really help solve an issue that has been with us in our cities since the 1930s? I don't think so.

If you look at the top 5 homeless cities in the world, obviously political party is not a common thread. It just isn't that kind of issue - politics is part of it, so is the economy, so is culture.

https://www.arcgis.com/apps/MapJournal/ ... 9809fbf287


There has to be far more then 60,000 homeless in Mumbai, there are people sleeping outside everywhere you look.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:44 pm

Didn't homelessness go hand in hand with joblessness, joblessness in the US started in the Reagan era when companies started to shut down manufacturing plants and exported production/jobs to low cost countries? Social dumping to provide increased profits fueled by corporate greed have a lot to do with this.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:26 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Didn't homelessness go hand in hand with joblessness, joblessness in the US started in the Reagan era when companies started to shut down manufacturing plants and exported production/jobs to low cost countries? Social dumping to provide increased profits fueled by corporate greed have a lot to do with this.



You are about a decade late in your estimate on job losses. It was in the 70's that the collapse of the US textile and steel industries began. Neither party has done anything to stem that tide. NAFTA and China's entrance to the WTO were instituted by Clinton

Reading the following story from 2013 with today's situation and you will see how naive we were.
https://www.chinabusinessreview.com/40- ... relations/
 
luckyone
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:51 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Didn't homelessness go hand in hand with joblessness, joblessness in the US started in the Reagan era when companies started to shut down manufacturing plants and exported production/jobs to low cost countries? Social dumping to provide increased profits fueled by corporate greed have a lot to do with this.



You are about a decade late in your estimate on job losses. It was in the 70's that the collapse of the US textile and steel industries began. Neither party has done anything to stem that tide. NAFTA and China's entrance to the WTO were instituted by Clinton

Reading the following story from 2013 with today's situation and you will see how naive we were.
https://www.chinabusinessreview.com/40- ... relations/

NAFTA was conceptualized by Reagan, and negotiated by HW Bush, with official signing December 17, 1992 when Bush was still POTUS. It was RATIFIED by Congress during the Clinton administration as follows: the U.S. House of Representatives passed the North American Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act on November 17, 1993, 234–200. The agreement's supporters included 132 Republicans and 102 Democrats. The bill passed the Senate on November 20, 1993, 61–38. Senate supporters were 34 Republicans and 27 Democrats.

As demonstrated by steel tariffs in the 1950s and 2000s, there is only so much you can do when the other guy does something quicker and for a fraction of the cost. No amount of political blustering will ever change that. And the pushback becomes making products more expensive for the home market by forcing them to pay higher prices when they could paying less. It hasn’t worked, and it won’t work.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:32 am

So if cheap goods are so great for America, why is our country experiencing unprecedented income inequality? Where are all the family sustaining jobs ?
We want our companies to provide livable wages, family leave, health insurance, etc and then pay a large share of the US budget. And while your doing that meet safety and pollution standards your competition doesn't have to

But ok - tell us what the answer is. Cause what we have now hasn't worked, and it won't work.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:30 am

seb146 wrote:
How many times are drug addicts given resources to break their cycle of addiction?

You can't give people will to quit. Resources spent on, say, cancer screening saves many more, more valuable lives than wasting them on addiction treatments.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:09 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
seb146 wrote:
How many times are drug addicts given resources to break their cycle of addiction?

You can't give people will to quit. Resources spent on, say, cancer screening saves many more, more valuable lives than wasting them on addiction treatments.


Perhaps so, but public health and medical professionals do not treat people that way, thankfully. They give their all regardless of who or what the condition is. Try telling their family members someone else is more 'valuable'. :boggled:
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:51 am

Medical professionals are first to admit that their efforts end in vain, unless there is active participation on part of the addict.
Btw, if said family members are so concerned about their less valuable member of society, why don't they help him off the street in the first place?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:29 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Medical professionals are first to admit that their efforts end in vain, unless there is active participation on part of the addict.
Btw, if said family members are so concerned about their less valuable member of society, why don't they help him off the street in the first place?


Many do, but have failed because they don’t know how to work with the condition. In other cases there is long term estrangement and they don’t know how the loved one is doing (or how low). C’mon this stuff doesn’t require much imagination, just empathy.

I know medical professionals who have dealt with it and of course they express frustration. But we have only begun to understand the neurochemical processes governing individual responses and treatment will get better in due time.
 
luckyone
Posts: 4037
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:55 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
So if cheap goods are so great for America, why is our country experiencing unprecedented income inequality? Where are all the family sustaining jobs ?
We want our companies to provide livable wages, family leave, health insurance, etc and then pay a large share of the US budget. And while your doing that meet safety and pollution standards your competition doesn't have to

But ok - tell us what the answer is. Cause what we have now hasn't worked, and it won't work.

You’ve hit the nail on the head. It’s the paradox. Ask the people who won’t pay the higher prices. Ask the companies who don’t want to pay the higher wages. Ask the workers who demanded better pay. Anything beyond that is a separate topic. Read “Crisis in Bethlehem.”
Last edited by luckyone on Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
luckyone
Posts: 4037
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:59 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Medical professionals are first to admit that their efforts end in vain, unless there is active participation on part of the addict.
Btw, if said family members are so concerned about their less valuable member of society, why don't they help him off the street in the first place?

Because at the end of the day you cannot make somebody do something they don’t want to do. In the US, neither liberals nor conservatives will support more paternalistic mental health laws. Conservatives will be happy until they or their kids are evaluated by “the government” and will scream liberty. If you don’t believe me, my mother wouldn’t even let me get screened by the school for scoliosis as a kid “because I don’t want to the government knowing my business.” You think she’d let me be screened for any mental health concerns? Forget it.

Liberals will squawk about compassion or whatever it is they think justifies letting people hurt themselves on the street day in and day out and that’ll be challenged in court too.
 
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seb146
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:17 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
seb146 wrote:
How many times are drug addicts given resources to break their cycle of addiction?

You can't give people will to quit. Resources spent on, say, cancer screening saves many more, more valuable lives than wasting them on addiction treatments.


Actually, the first step is there. At least in the medical facilities I have been to on the West Coast. Pamphlets about drug addiction and recovery. Not just 12 step programs. But you are right: an addict has to WANT to quit. An overdose might not do it. Prostitution for a small amount of drugs might not do it. Addiction is a hell of a trip.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:37 pm

Homelessness can only be addressed on the national level. The problem with cities and towns establishing their own policies for addressing mental health and homeless is that it pushes the problems to other cities.

For example a town that has zero social programs in place will quickly push their homeless into the graves, or to other cities. It doesn’t address the actual problem but shifts it somewhere else. It is great for the republican cities that pride themselves on their no-homeless population; but they didn’t solve the problem. The problem just moved. They pay themselves on the back, and then criticize the cities that are actually attempting to deal with the problem but are overrun. If every city had easily accessed social programs the load would be evenly distributed and the homeless would stop moving town to town. But we can’t expect this country to ever work together on anything or god forbid have compassionate care and programs for the mentally ill. That’s asking too much of this “Christian” nation.

The US motto should be “Screw you, I got mine.”
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:53 pm

Would you support adoption of the Singapore model to deal with drug addiction and it's by product homelessness?

A quote from the story -
"We invest significant efforts to prevent drug abuse. The government works closely with community groups, parents and teachers to educate youths and the general public on the harm and consequences of drug abuse. Drug abusers undergo compulsory rehabilitation programs to help them kick their drug habits. Upon release from rehabilitation centers, ex-abusers receive help to reintegrate into society. Tough laws and effective enforcement are a strong deterrent against drug sales and consumption. Stiff penalties punish those who disregard the law and deter others. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html
 
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seb146
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:55 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Would you support adoption of the Singapore model to deal with drug addiction and it's by product homelessness?

A quote from the story -
"We invest significant efforts to prevent drug abuse. The government works closely with community groups, parents and teachers to educate youths and the general public on the harm and consequences of drug abuse. Drug abusers undergo compulsory rehabilitation programs to help them kick their drug habits. Upon release from rehabilitation centers, ex-abusers receive help to reintegrate into society. Tough laws and effective enforcement are a strong deterrent against drug sales and consumption. Stiff penalties punish those who disregard the law and deter others. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html


Homelessness and drug addiction are not always one and the same. Homeless people are not always drug addicts and drug addicts are not always homeless. When I was growing up, we were told the dangers of all kinds of drugs (and sex but that is for another thread) in public school. That did not stop some of us from being addicts or homeless or not having kids when we were kids. Look at the current "outrage" over masking and vaccines. People are people and do what they want. Don't force people but have resources available, even if they can't pay for it.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:46 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Would you support adoption of the Singapore model to deal with drug addiction and it's by product homelessness?

A quote from the story -
"We invest significant efforts to prevent drug abuse. The government works closely with community groups, parents and teachers to educate youths and the general public on the harm and consequences of drug abuse. Drug abusers undergo compulsory rehabilitation programs to help them kick their drug habits. Upon release from rehabilitation centers, ex-abusers receive help to reintegrate into society. Tough laws and effective enforcement are a strong deterrent against drug sales and consumption. Stiff penalties punish those who disregard the law and deter others. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html


The authoritarian public welfare and healthcare schemes in Singapore will never mesh with American culture. It would make divisions worse than they already are. The Portugal model seems to make more sense and has been incredibly successful.

Importantly, the decriminalisation of personal possession is only one part of broader health-centred drug policy reforms that involve an increased focus on harm reduction and treatment provision.6 By ‘accepting the reality of drug use rather than eternally hoping that it will disappear as a result of repressive legislation’, Portuguese reform allows drugs to be treated as a health, rather than criminal justice, issue.7 The benefits of these reforms, therefore, arise from both decriminalisation itself and the establishment of a wider health-based response to drug problems.

https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-de ... d-straight
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2888
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: What happened to Denver?

Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:10 pm

luckyone wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
So if cheap goods are so great for America, why is our country experiencing unprecedented income inequality? Where are all the family sustaining jobs ?
We want our companies to provide livable wages, family leave, health insurance, etc and then pay a large share of the US budget. And while your doing that meet safety and pollution standards your competition doesn't have to

But ok - tell us what the answer is. Cause what we have now hasn't worked, and it won't work.

You’ve hit the nail on the head. It’s the paradox. Ask the people who won’t pay the higher prices. Ask the companies who don’t want to pay the higher wages. Ask the workers who demanded better pay. Anything beyond that is a separate topic. Read “Crisis in Bethlehem.”


Read about the "Triffin Dilemma".
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 977
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: What happened to Denver?

Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:00 pm

Just read Wikipedia's Triffin Dilemma. Like most economics and monetary theory, now my head hurts.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1251
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: What happened to Denver?

Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:27 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
So if cheap goods are so great for America, why is our country experiencing unprecedented income inequality? Where are all the family sustaining jobs ?
We want our companies to provide livable wages, family leave, health insurance, etc and then pay a large share of the US budget. And while your doing that meet safety and pollution standards your competition doesn't have to

But ok - tell us what the answer is. Cause what we have now hasn't worked, and it won't work.


Basically the US is (mostly) a democracy.

There is something called "median voter theorem" which means in a democracy, the voter at the median (50th percentile income, education) decides elections. The poor do not. The elite do not. The median voter does.

In the US, median household income is pretty good (near $70,000 in 2019). The life of the median family has tough aspects. But overall, pretty good. $70,000 going to the median household is an amazing accomplishment affecting ordinary US families. It is a stunning triumph.

Policy 1. Near perfect income equality. Rich, talented people flee. Median real household income US $50,000.
Policy 2. Tons of income inequality. Rich, talented people stay and migrate in. Median real household income US $70,000.

"Real income" = adjusted for inflation and living costs. Median = that voter will decide the election.

Policy 2 is clearly better (in this example). Income inequality is not necessarily a bad thing (in this example). You might imagine YOU can create a better economy, with higher living standards for the median household. But in fact, few have succeeded.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:39 pm

Income inequality causes things like left wing revolutions (Lenin) or right wing despots (Hitler).

I will never forget the words of one of the sweetest, kindest women I have ever met. She was born around 1905 and spent her first 25 years in Germany. We were sitting around discussing politics and got around talking about WWII. She floored us all for justifying Hitler by saying 5 simple words - " but the Jews had everything" . Think about that.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:56 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Income inequality causes things like left wing revolutions (Lenin) or right wing despots (Hitler).

I will never forget the words of one of the sweetest, kindest women I have ever met. She was born around 1905 and spent her first 25 years in Germany. We were sitting around discussing politics and got around talking about WWII. She floored us all for justifying Hitler by saying 5 simple words - " but the Jews had everything" . Think about that.


Interesting recap. One possible differentiator is 1920s/30s Germany was a lot smaller than the US is now. 330+ million people is a very large sample and while there are a lot of billionaires in the US, and they clearly have a major chunk of overall wealth, they are widely distributed and not very visible except for the few CEO founders who make a lot of media appearances. There are only 7 states with more than 20 billionaires, and only two with more than 100.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/krisztians ... 7895539eed

Most economists would argue that inequality is felt more tangibly at the margins - for example between the lower and upper middle class moreso than middle class and 1%. Conversely, the 1% is probably acutely aware of how different their financial constraints are from the 0.1% in the billionaire class. These conditions don't seem very conducive to revolution.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:49 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Income inequality causes things like left wing revolutions (Lenin) or right wing despots (Hitler).

I will never forget the words of one of the sweetest, kindest women I have ever met. She was born around 1905 and spent her first 25 years in Germany. We were sitting around discussing politics and got around talking about WWII. She floored us all for justifying Hitler by saying 5 simple words - " but the Jews had everything" . Think about that.


Floored you by her ignorant and racist statement.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 977
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:23 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
Income inequality causes things like left wing revolutions (Lenin) or right wing despots (Hitler).

I will never forget the words of one of the sweetest, kindest women I have ever met. She was born around 1905 and spent her first 25 years in Germany. We were sitting around discussing politics and got around talking about WWII. She floored us all for justifying Hitler by saying 5 simple words - " but the Jews had everything" . Think about that.


Floored you by her ignorant and racist statement.



If the Nazi's could convince her, then they could convince a nation. And they did. As did Lenin and then Stalin. Go the the Military Forum Section. There was a current link to a Chinese site - gee we seem to be the cause of all their problems.

What do we see here in the States? Hate on both sides - Eat the Rich, Cop free zones, overturn an election, reject science.

When the average Citizen begins to believe this stuff, like my German friend did, we are in trouble.

People who feel vested in the economy with jobs that pay a fair wage and allow a decent life cut down on the number of disenfranchised people.
 
87GROUNDED
Posts: 79
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:32 pm

seb146 wrote:
Every time this issue comes up, the right throws out red meat for it's base. Republican cities and states cut funding for things like affordable housing and affordable health care then turn around and blame "liberals" for problems. Remember all the cuts and failures by GWB at the VA which were then blamed on Obama? Republicans stripping ACA and blaming "liberals" for not doing anything about the poor health care service?

There are many, many, many factors about homeless people. Mental health facilities being shut down, low wages, high cost of housing, narrow minded family members... the cause is not for one political party only. We are only as strong as the weakest among us. By refusing to take care of them in some way, whether that be affordable health care, getting veterans into the VA system, converting abandoned buildings into housing, it shows we don't really care about anything but ourselves.

Of course, we can't do any of that because that would mean paying taxes....


I live in Denver and you're completely incorrect in your statement. The politicians with a (D) behind their names control the state houses, the governor's mansion, the school board, and city hall. This issue in Denver falls directly on the shoulders of those individuals.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: What happened to Denver?

Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:30 am

87GROUNDED wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Every time this issue comes up, the right throws out red meat for it's base. Republican cities and states cut funding for things like affordable housing and affordable health care then turn around and blame "liberals" for problems. Remember all the cuts and failures by GWB at the VA which were then blamed on Obama? Republicans stripping ACA and blaming "liberals" for not doing anything about the poor health care service?

There are many, many, many factors about homeless people. Mental health facilities being shut down, low wages, high cost of housing, narrow minded family members... the cause is not for one political party only. We are only as strong as the weakest among us. By refusing to take care of them in some way, whether that be affordable health care, getting veterans into the VA system, converting abandoned buildings into housing, it shows we don't really care about anything but ourselves.

Of course, we can't do any of that because that would mean paying taxes....


I live in Denver and you're completely incorrect in your statement. The politicians with a (D) behind their names control the state houses, the governor's mansion, the school board, and city hall. This issue in Denver falls directly on the shoulders of those individuals.


Please tell us what specific policies have led to Denver homelessness doubling the last two-three years?
 
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seb146
Posts: 23953
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: What happened to Denver?

Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:35 am

Aaron747 wrote:
87GROUNDED wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Every time this issue comes up, the right throws out red meat for it's base. Republican cities and states cut funding for things like affordable housing and affordable health care then turn around and blame "liberals" for problems. Remember all the cuts and failures by GWB at the VA which were then blamed on Obama? Republicans stripping ACA and blaming "liberals" for not doing anything about the poor health care service?

There are many, many, many factors about homeless people. Mental health facilities being shut down, low wages, high cost of housing, narrow minded family members... the cause is not for one political party only. We are only as strong as the weakest among us. By refusing to take care of them in some way, whether that be affordable health care, getting veterans into the VA system, converting abandoned buildings into housing, it shows we don't really care about anything but ourselves.

Of course, we can't do any of that because that would mean paying taxes....


I live in Denver and you're completely incorrect in your statement. The politicians with a (D) behind their names control the state houses, the governor's mansion, the school board, and city hall. This issue in Denver falls directly on the shoulders of those individuals.


Please tell us what specific policies have led to Denver homelessness doubling the last two-three years?


What specific DEMOCRATIC policies...
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9909
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

Re: What happened to Denver?

Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:12 am

jfklganyc wrote:
Empty streets. Homeless everywhere. Many clearly mentally ill. Tents on sidewalks. And a yuppie class that walks by pretending it isnt happening.

I am looking over my shoulder the entire time I am walking around. It is unnerving

How did the promise of this medium sized rocky mountain city go so wrong?


Take a visit to Downtown Seattle. The homeless there is a LOT worse than here in Denver.

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