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NIKV69
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
We can very easily conclude that the American democratic system, isn't the best political system, not by a long shot. Just look at the way it is manipulated and contributes to dividing a nation, instead of unifying one. Be careful with such claims, especially on an international forum or you get reactions like this.


The political system doesn't divide people. The electorate is already divided in the way they think it's the media that fans the flames and riles them up. You are trying to infer that a political system isn't good if everyone isn't getting along? That is a little short sighted.

As for this General he should lose his job, not sure if he should face charges but he jumped the gun big time. I would give any high ranking military member the benefit of the doubt if the Commander and Chief started melting down but he or she should at least wait till that actually starts to happen. Not when they think it may, His behavior was disgusting.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:30 pm

Dutchy wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
There is a constitution, there are elections, its supposed to be a civilian controlled goverment. Even if we hate the guy in command, we can't just go over the system that has kept in check this Republic for a long time. That's the difference between the US and any other nation, it has been the longest running democracy, no one can say they are longer than the US exactly because the Constitution and the democratic system in place.


Sorry to say, but what a typical American thing to say. You can have a debate that your constitution is in direct conflict with a truly democratic system. And some have been calling America an oligarchy instead of a democracy.

And the longest continues running democracy? Interesting, based on what exactly?

We can very easily conclude that the American democratic system, isn't the best political system, not by a long shot. Just look at the way it is manipulated and contributes to dividing a nation, instead of unifying one. Be careful with such claims, especially on an international forum or you get reactions like this.


US is a republic OR represented democracy which is not a truly democratic system. By design.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:15 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
I think this thread is going to be locked soon.
My last comment: I think that many here are blinded by their hatred for Trump and THEREFORE condone the action of Milley. Had Milley done his deed last week under Biden, I bet that we would have had a completely different discussion.


It's not hatred. The general is not hateful. He simply saw that Trump was so dumb, incompetent and not all there, that he could start a nuclear war for no good reason.

The problem isn't what the general did, it's that he had to do it. Trump should never have been allowed near the presidency, or at least he should have been removed long before it came to this.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:17 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
There is a constitution, there are elections, its supposed to be a civilian controlled goverment. Even if we hate the guy in command, we can't just go over the system that has kept in check this Republic for a long time. That's the difference between the US and any other nation, it has been the longest running democracy, no one can say they are longer than the US exactly because the Constitution and the democratic system in place.


Sorry to say, but what a typical American thing to say. You can have a debate that your constitution is in direct conflict with a truly democratic system. And some have been calling America an oligarchy instead of a democracy.

And the longest continues running democracy? Interesting, based on what exactly?

We can very easily conclude that the American democratic system, isn't the best political system, not by a long shot. Just look at the way it is manipulated and contributes to dividing a nation, instead of unifying one. Be careful with such claims, especially on an international forum or you get reactions like this.


There are opinions and then there are facts:

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapped ... mocracies/


That is not a fact, it is by specific arbitrary criteria and the US meets it apparently. But if this is the claim to fame, fine by me. As a source of national pride, it is just hilarious.but that is just my opinion, not fact :D
 
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Tugger
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:23 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
There is a constitution, there are elections, its supposed to be a civilian controlled goverment. Even if we hate the guy in command, we can't just go over the system that has kept in check this Republic for a long time. That's the difference between the US and any other nation, it has been the longest running democracy, no one can say they are longer than the US exactly because the Constitution and the democratic system in place.


Sorry to say, but what a typical American thing to say. You can have a debate that your constitution is in direct conflict with a truly democratic system. And some have been calling America an oligarchy instead of a democracy.

And the longest continues running democracy? Interesting, based on what exactly?

We can very easily conclude that the American democratic system, isn't the best political system, not by a long shot. Just look at the way it is manipulated and contributes to dividing a nation, instead of unifying one. Be careful with such claims, especially on an international forum or you get reactions like this.


US is a republic OR represented democracy which is not a truly democratic system. By design.

Do I need to quote Winston Churchill?

The key thing I am not a fan of in current US politics is the "winner takes all" design which does not allow for "middle ground" and so forces voters into one of two choices (as a matter of function). I wouldn't mind seeing multiple parties and groups in our system to better represent the diverse population we have. However I do prefer our "President" system over a Prime Minister one.

I would be interested to have us return the Senate election process to what it originally was, with the two Senators from each state chosen by the legislature of the state. I would also be interested in increasing the House members to 3 or 4 years and if 4 change the President to 5 and leave the Senate at 6. The ever two year aspect for the House just has them in continuations "run for office" mode.

Tugg
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:29 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
We can very easily conclude that the American democratic system, isn't the best political system, not by a long shot. Just look at the way it is manipulated and contributes to dividing a nation, instead of unifying one. Be careful with such claims, especially on an international forum or you get reactions like this.


The political system doesn't divide people. The electorate is already divided in the way they think it's the media that fans the flames and riles them up. You are trying to infer that a political system isn't good if everyone isn't getting along? That is a little short sighted.


I beg to diifer. Because you have an essentially two pafrty system, it means that there is no need to cooporate thus a more "we and them" mentality. More tribalism if you will. But indeed the media landscape and ethics of the US don't help a bit.

BTW don't put words in my mouth, by the looks of it, sorry to say, you aren't very good at it ;-)

NIKV69 wrote:
As for this General he should lose his job, not sure if he should face charges but he jumped the gun big time. I would give any high ranking military member the benefit of the doubt if the Commander and Chief started melting down but he or she should at least wait till that actually starts to happen. Not when they think it may, His behavior was disgusting.


As if now, I have no opinion if this general should face charges or not, be sacked or not. I do not have all the facts and probably never will to form an informed opinion. As for now, I can see both sides of the argument.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:

BTW don't put words in my mouth, by the looks of it, sorry to say, you aren't very good at it ;-)



No because I don't put words in people's mouths. You spoke clearly but please give me an example. As for my nations two party system I don't like it I want a third party. If you look at the electorate it has three parties. The fringe left, the fringe right and the middle.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:39 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

BTW don't put words in my mouth, by the looks of it, sorry to say, you aren't very good at it ;-)



No because I don't put words in people's mouths. You spoke clearly but please give me an example.


Sure:
NIKV69 wrote:
You are trying to infer that a political system isn't good if everyone isn't getting along? That is a little short sighted.


Speculation.on your part, followed by a conclusion on your speculation.

NIKV69 wrote:
As for my nations two party system I don't like it I want a third party. If you look at the electorate it has three parties. The fringe left, the fringe right and the middle.

As long you have the 'first past the post" system, or 'winner takes all", you will end up with a two-party system. And there is much more shades of gray than just those 3. Just left and right is a bit crude, I suggest you also put conservative versus progressive in the mix. Proportional representation would go a long way to solve it. And yeah I see drawbacks there. But we dicress from the topic at hand. As I said, I don't have strong opinions about this general's actions. Too few facts to have an informed opinion.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:08 am

NIKV69 wrote:
I would give any high ranking military member the benefit of the doubt if the Commander and Chief started melting down but he or she should at least wait till that actually starts to happen. Not when they think it may, His behavior was disgusting.


You might have a wider personal definition of adult behavior and narrower one of ‘meltdown’ than many Americans. Keep in mind it wasn’t only the CJCS, it was also SecDef Esper and CIA director Haspell, both also Cabinet members. They observed the following POTUS behavior:

1. Claims of systemic voter fraud without evidence. Dem and GOP secretaries of state reported a well run election, and these reports were refused.

2. Proposals to use US troops on political protesters. SecDef refused to entertain doing so and was fired over it after the election.

3. No concession of the election despite a clear mathematical impossibility of overturning results on appeal.

4. Taking meetings at WH with odd characters pushing election fraud theories. Requesting swing states to find or discard votes.

5. Heavy pressure on VP not to certify results as Constitutionally required in January

6. Haspell observed ‘6 year-old tantrums’ regarding election

7. Handover teams were not being prepped for incoming WH

You call the foreign policy team actions ‘disgusting’ but I think given the above, any reasonable adult professional would call such behavior seriously unusual and would rightly be concerned how it was being interpreted on the outside.

Their sworn role is protecting the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic - I think it’s pretty clear that’s what they were doing.
 
Newark727
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:25 am

NIKV69 wrote:
As for this General he should lose his job, not sure if he should face charges but he jumped the gun big time. I would give any high ranking military member the benefit of the doubt if the Commander and Chief started melting down but he or she should at least wait till that actually starts to happen. Not when they think it may, His behavior was disgusting.


I mean, General Milley, as well as Esper and Haspell, were a lot closer to the president than you were. How do you know he wasn't melting down?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:28 am

PixelPilot wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:

You are wrong on this one and you know it.


?? If you can show me where anyone here has suggested we have more than one executive I’ll gladly stand corrected.


I never said anybody suggested it here.
I am saying you are wrong in believing that EVERYONE in this country agrees that there is/should be only one president. I mean certain groups do as long as it is theirs.
If it is not aligned with their ideas then it is not their president and many people including governing bodies are happy to point it out to score some extra political points or like history is showing, act behind the back of the current leader.
The previous presidency is a literal goldmine for historians and I have a feeling this one will be as well. The question is will they have the freedom to write things as they happened.

Also are you 100% sure Biden is in full control right now and he is the only one calling the shots? Honest opinion.


I agree this period has been a goldmine for historians but in different categories. It is unprecedented in terms of pundits’ influence in major media, misinformation by foreign and domestic actors in social media, and distribution of unvetted rumors.

Some of the denial of recent and current POTUS legitimacy is driven less by anything real and moreso cynical performative politicking. Officials in the recent Presidency were given to backbiting because of the unprofessional nature of the operation - inexperienced hires, hires based on performative elements not competence, nepotism, and a resulting historic turnover rate.

And I don’t see any justification to question if anyone is ‘allowed’ to write these histories - this is the US. If a big publisher doesn’t want your story, a small one might. If nobody does, you can do WordPress or self-publish. No NSA agent will suddenly jump in and cut your ISPs hosting permissions, etc.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:02 am

PixelPilot wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
There is a constitution, there are elections, its supposed to be a civilian controlled goverment. Even if we hate the guy in command, we can't just go over the system that has kept in check this Republic for a long time. That's the difference between the US and any other nation, it has been the longest running democracy, no one can say they are longer than the US exactly because the Constitution and the democratic system in place.


Sorry to say, but what a typical American thing to say. You can have a debate that your constitution is in direct conflict with a truly democratic system. And some have been calling America an oligarchy instead of a democracy.

And the longest continues running democracy? Interesting, based on what exactly?

We can very easily conclude that the American democratic system, isn't the best political system, not by a long shot. Just look at the way it is manipulated and contributes to dividing a nation, instead of unifying one. Be careful with such claims, especially on an international forum or you get reactions like this.


US is a republic OR represented democracy which is not a truly democratic system. By design.


That is beside the point. In some countries, the military generals CAN and DO take full personal control of the country, acting as a king. In the US, a president who won a national election gives the orders. The Electoral College is close to pure democracy. Not exactly, but it is close.
 
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seb146
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:17 am

Aaron747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
extender wrote:
The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff has certainly created a stir over the last two months. But this weeks bombshell is the icing on the cake for which he should face disciplinary action. He also shares responsibility for the botched exit from Afghanistan whereby the Taliban was left with lots of weapons, equipment, ammunition etc. That he circumvented the chain of command is unprecedented. It doesn't matter if it was to Trump, Biden or Obama; it is flat out wrong. My other question, why did Milley also give this information to Bob Woodward? The military command should have zero political bias.

Top general Milley reassured China, others in secret calls as Trump pushed election lies, spokesman says

Alexander Vindman Says Gen. Milley ‘Must Resign’ If Report of His Calls to China Is True: ‘He Usurped Civilian Authority’

General Milley Should Be Fired for Holding Secret, Personal Talks with China


Gen. Milley called to say China would not be attacked, so this was a real possibility from the White House.


That’s not exactly what the available reports suggest. CIA and SecDef thought PRC might be getting jumpy and wanted to reasure them of our status. Nothing more than that.


Even keeping in mind that Reagan was not making any decisions at all in the final years of his term, this is still unprecedented.

I have also been wondering if we need to strip former military leaders for their "failings" like Eisenhower leaving behind equipment and troops in Europe or MacArthur for leaving behind equipment and troops in the Pacific or Schwartzkopf for leaving equipment behind in the first Gulf War or anyone for leaving troops and equipment behind during the Iraq and Kurdish withdraws? There is so much outrage over this one time but not a peep other times, so I am just wondering...
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:32 am

seb146 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Gen. Milley called to say China would not be attacked, so this was a real possibility from the White House.


That’s not exactly what the available reports suggest. CIA and SecDef thought PRC might be getting jumpy and wanted to reasure them of our status. Nothing more than that.


Even keeping in mind that Reagan was not making any decisions at all in the final years of his term, this is still unprecedented.

I have also been wondering if we need to strip former military leaders for their "failings" like Eisenhower leaving behind equipment and troops in Europe or MacArthur for leaving behind equipment and troops in the Pacific or Schwartzkopf for leaving equipment behind in the first Gulf War or anyone for leaving troops and equipment behind during the Iraq and Kurdish withdraws? There is so much outrage over this one time but not a peep other times, so I am just wondering...


Sure, always useful to wonder about things, but this thread is about communications with China during confusing times in recent WH.
 
alfa164
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:04 am

Newark727 wrote:
I mean, General Milley, as well as Esper and Haspell, were a lot closer to the president than you were. How do you know he wasn't melting down?


Even from a distance, we could all see that Trump put the country in uncharted territory given his penchant - maybe even delight - in flouting norms, the Constitution, and the rule of law. All of the far right pundits now feigning outrage at Milley's decision to put country above personality were notably silent as Herr Trump demolished traditions, propriety, and the gravitas usually inherent in the office he occupied. Where were these voices then? Where were they when he fomented his plan to stay in office, despite his decisive loss, and thus undermine the foundations of our democracy? Where are they as he continues with the "big lie" and its corrosive nature on our nation?

I'm sorry, but anyone who places loyalty to a narcissistic, egomaniacal demagogue above loyalty to our institutions garners no respect from me. And anyone who does not recognize the dangers of such a man is a fool.


LCDFlight wrote:
That is beside the point. In some countries, the military generals CAN and DO take full personal control of the country, acting as a king. In the US, a president who won a national election gives the orders. The Electoral College is close to pure democracy. Not exactly, but it is close.


This president had already lost the national election, and the only orders he seemed to be giving were desperate attempts to ignore the results of that election in his deranged attempt to stay in power. A major reason for concern was his attempt to undermine the very Electoral College you seem to hold in high esteem. One need only to look at the riots of January 6th to see how his divisiveness posed a danger to our democratic process.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:27 am

extender wrote:
The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff has certainly created a stir over the last two months. But this weeks bombshell is the icing on the cake for which he should face disciplinary action. He also shares responsibility for the botched exit from Afghanistan whereby the Taliban was left with lots of weapons, equipment, ammunition etc. That he circumvented the chain of command is unprecedented. It doesn't matter if it was to Trump, Biden or Obama; it is flat out wrong. My other question, why did Milley also give this information to Bob Woodward? The military command should have zero political bias.

Top general Milley reassured China, others in secret calls as Trump pushed election lies, spokesman says

Alexander Vindman Says Gen. Milley ‘Must Resign’ If Report of His Calls to China Is True: ‘He Usurped Civilian Authority’

General Milley Should Be Fired for Holding Secret, Personal Talks with China


Absolutely shocking. This is close to a coup by the military and should be considered treason at least, as he was leaking information to the Chinese.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:50 am

I do not see the harm in Milley telling China there would be no attack.

Let’s for a second assume Trump had gone full mental, and ordered an attack on China. The very people now complaining would fall over themselves praising Milley, for having lulled China into a false sense of security!
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:55 am

seahawk wrote:
extender wrote:
The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff has certainly created a stir over the last two months. But this weeks bombshell is the icing on the cake for which he should face disciplinary action. He also shares responsibility for the botched exit from Afghanistan whereby the Taliban was left with lots of weapons, equipment, ammunition etc. That he circumvented the chain of command is unprecedented. It doesn't matter if it was to Trump, Biden or Obama; it is flat out wrong. My other question, why did Milley also give this information to Bob Woodward? The military command should have zero political bias.

Top general Milley reassured China, others in secret calls as Trump pushed election lies, spokesman says

Alexander Vindman Says Gen. Milley ‘Must Resign’ If Report of His Calls to China Is True: ‘He Usurped Civilian Authority’

General Milley Should Be Fired for Holding Secret, Personal Talks with China


Absolutely shocking. This is close to a coup by the military and should be considered treason at least, as he was leaking information to the Chinese.


Do you have a source that he was 'leaking information' to the Chinese? That would indicate he acted alone and nobody else knew what was being said. Multiple sources already cited in this thread say no such thing.

Also 'coup' cannot be used in this situation. Like, at all:

the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group

https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... 7%C3%A9tat
 
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seahawk
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:04 am

seb146 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
extender wrote:
The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff has certainly created a stir over the last two months. But this weeks bombshell is the icing on the cake for which he should face disciplinary action. He also shares responsibility for the botched exit from Afghanistan whereby the Taliban was left with lots of weapons, equipment, ammunition etc. That he circumvented the chain of command is unprecedented. It doesn't matter if it was to Trump, Biden or Obama; it is flat out wrong. My other question, why did Milley also give this information to Bob Woodward? The military command should have zero political bias.

Top general Milley reassured China, others in secret calls as Trump pushed election lies, spokesman says

Alexander Vindman Says Gen. Milley ‘Must Resign’ If Report of His Calls to China Is True: ‘He Usurped Civilian Authority’

General Milley Should Be Fired for Holding Secret, Personal Talks with China


Absolutely shocking. This is close to a coup by the military and should be considered treason at least, as he was leaking information to the Chinese.


Joint Chiefs decided the former occupant would go rogue and do whatever he wanted. Military leaders saw dear leader as a threat to national security. Simply calling another nation and saying "we think our guy does not know what he is doing and will wait until someone competent comes in" is not treason or leaking information.


Should they not contact the vice president and other elected officials to get an impeachment in such cases?
 
bpatus297
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:06 am

Aesma wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I think this thread is going to be locked soon.
My last comment: I think that many here are blinded by their hatred for Trump and THEREFORE condone the action of Milley. Had Milley done his deed last week under Biden, I bet that we would have had a completely different discussion.


It's not hatred. The general is not hateful. He simply saw that Trump was so dumb, incompetent and not all there, that he could start a nuclear war for no good reason.

The problem isn't what the general did, it's that he had to do it. Trump should never have been allowed near the presidency, or at least he should have been removed long before it came to this.


You said the general is not hateful. How do you know this? Do you know him? Can you read his thoughts? That is a ridiculous comment to make about an individual you very most likely have never even met. Why should Trump not have been allowed near the Presidency? Please show us evidence where Trump was not eligible to hold that office?
 
bpatus297
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:09 am

Tugger wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Sorry to say, but what a typical American thing to say. You can have a debate that your constitution is in direct conflict with a truly democratic system. And some have been calling America an oligarchy instead of a democracy.

And the longest continues running democracy? Interesting, based on what exactly?

We can very easily conclude that the American democratic system, isn't the best political system, not by a long shot. Just look at the way it is manipulated and contributes to dividing a nation, instead of unifying one. Be careful with such claims, especially on an international forum or you get reactions like this.


US is a republic OR represented democracy which is not a truly democratic system. By design.

Do I need to quote Winston Churchill?

The key thing I am not a fan of in current US politics is the "winner takes all" design which does not allow for "middle ground" and so forces voters into one of two choices (as a matter of function). I wouldn't mind seeing multiple parties and groups in our system to better represent the diverse population we have. However I do prefer our "President" system over a Prime Minister one.

I would be interested to have us return the Senate election process to what it originally was, with the two Senators from each state chosen by the legislature of the state. I would also be interested in increasing the House members to 3 or 4 years and if 4 change the President to 5 and leave the Senate at 6. The ever two year aspect for the House just has them in continuations "run for office" mode.

Tugg


I 100% agree that the two party system sucks. I don't fit nicely into either box. I might have some strong conservatives views on specific issues, but I am very libertarian on a lot too.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:06 pm

At least people have stopped trying to associate these actions with a coup, though I did see one pundit on the right continuing to use ‘junta’ yesterday on Twitter. It’s like these people have never seen news from overseas before - or opened a dictionary.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:28 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:

US is a republic OR represented democracy which is not a truly democratic system. By design.

Do I need to quote Winston Churchill?

The key thing I am not a fan of in current US politics is the "winner takes all" design which does not allow for "middle ground" and so forces voters into one of two choices (as a matter of function). I wouldn't mind seeing multiple parties and groups in our system to better represent the diverse population we have. However I do prefer our "President" system over a Prime Minister one.

I would be interested to have us return the Senate election process to what it originally was, with the two Senators from each state chosen by the legislature of the state. I would also be interested in increasing the House members to 3 or 4 years and if 4 change the President to 5 and leave the Senate at 6. The ever two year aspect for the House just has them in continuations "run for office" mode.

Tugg


I 100% agree that the two party system sucks. I don't fit nicely into either box. I might have some strong conservatives views on specific issues, but I am very libertarian on a lot too.


I'm on the same boat but I'm pretty sure nothing will change.
2 party system is perfect to keep people focused on themselves instead of the ruler class and the stuff they actually do.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:38 pm

So basically the White House and Pentagon have Milley's back, but a bunch of folks that don't understand the chain of command and are politcally vindictive want him fired.

https://news.yahoo.com/milley-says-rout ... 00632.html

“I think it’s best that I reserve my comments on the record until I do that in front of the lawmakers who have the lawful responsibility to oversee the U.S. military,” Milley told the Associated Press. “I’ll go into any level of detail Congress wants to go into in a couple of weeks.”

Both the White House and the Pentagon have defended Milley’s calls to his Chinese counterpart and said they retain confidence in him.

Pentagon spokesman John Kirby repeatedly declined to answer specific questions about the phone call between Milley and Li, though he said such conversations with foreign counterparts are within the chairman's role, while White House spokeswoman Jen Psaki said, “The president has complete confidence in his leadership, his patriotism, and his fidelity to our Constitution.”
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:44 pm

So getting back on track here, according to this Fox report, it's all coming out now. General Milley was not out of line, the original orders were from former SecDef Esper, and acting SecDef Miller has walked back the comments in which he claimed he 'didn't know' about the China communications and now admits his team members took similar action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-TplaqTvro

To recap:

1. In October, SecDef Esper orders reassurance communications to China that no attacks are planned.

2. January 1 - Talking points for another call with China went out from SecDef's office (OSD)

3. January 4 - Calls to China coordinated by OSD

4. January 6 - SecDef's China policy attache speaks to counterpart in Beijing

5. January 8 - Gen. Milley speaks with his Chinese counterpart

https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/statu ... 1943?s=204

Awaiting the apologies from various right wing media figures and members of Congress calling for court martials and treason trials that will never come... :shhh:
Last edited by Aaron747 on Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:44 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
At least people have stopped trying to associate these actions with a coup, though I did see one pundit on the right continuing to use ‘junta’ yesterday on Twitter. It’s like these people have never seen news from overseas before - or opened a dictionary.


Also, the military taking over is usually seen as bad and it usually is, but there are exceptions. Turkey is becoming less and less democratic because Erdogan ensured the military couldn't do like before, take over to restore the constitution.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:49 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Do I need to quote Winston Churchill?

The key thing I am not a fan of in current US politics is the "winner takes all" design which does not allow for "middle ground" and so forces voters into one of two choices (as a matter of function). I wouldn't mind seeing multiple parties and groups in our system to better represent the diverse population we have. However I do prefer our "President" system over a Prime Minister one.

I would be interested to have us return the Senate election process to what it originally was, with the two Senators from each state chosen by the legislature of the state. I would also be interested in increasing the House members to 3 or 4 years and if 4 change the President to 5 and leave the Senate at 6. The ever two year aspect for the House just has them in continuations "run for office" mode.

Tugg


I 100% agree that the two party system sucks. I don't fit nicely into either box. I might have some strong conservatives views on specific issues, but I am very libertarian on a lot too.


I'm on the same boat but I'm pretty sure nothing will change.
2 party system is perfect to keep people focused on themselves instead of the ruler class and the stuff they actually do.


The people in power will never change the system that puts them in power in the first place. It is completely logical and understandable, but that is the problem.
 
skyservice_330
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:55 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
So getting back on track here, according to this Fox report, it's all coming out now. General Milley was not out of line, the original orders were from former SecDef Esper, and acting SecDef Miller has walked back the comments in which he claimed he 'didn't know' about the China communications and now admits his team members took similar action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-TplaqTvro

To recap:

1. In October, SecDef Esper orders reassurance communications to China that no attacks are planned.

2. January 1 - Talking points for another call with China went out from SecDef's office (OSD)

3. January 4 - Calls to China coordinated by OSD

4. January 6 - SecDef's China policy attache speaks to counterpart in Beijing

5. January 8 - Gen. Milley speaks with his Chinese counterpart

https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/statu ... 1943?s=204

Awaiting the apologies from various right wing media figures and members of Congress calling for court martials and treason trials that will never come... :shhh:


So, in short, Trumps own people and appointees were undertaking similar actions? It wasn't just the actions of a single treasonous, coup planning, military man despite the emphatic assertions of right wing commentators?

I believe you capitalize both the E and F when spelling 'Egg on Face' :lol:
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:02 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
So getting back on track here, according to this Fox report, it's all coming out now. General Milley was not out of line, the original orders were from former SecDef Esper, and acting SecDef Miller has walked back the comments in which he claimed he 'didn't know' about the China communications and now admits his team members took similar action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-TplaqTvro

To recap:

1. In October, SecDef Esper orders reassurance communications to China that no attacks are planned.

2. January 1 - Talking points for another call with China went out from SecDef's office (OSD)

3. January 4 - Calls to China coordinated by OSD

4. January 6 - SecDef's China policy attache speaks to counterpart in Beijing

5. January 8 - Gen. Milley speaks with his Chinese counterpart

https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/statu ... 1943?s=204

Awaiting the apologies from various right wing media figures and members of Congress calling for court martials and treason trials that will never come... :shhh:


So, in short, Trumps own people and appointees were undertaking similar actions? It wasn't just the actions of a single treasonous, coup planning, military man despite the emphatic assertions of right wing commentators?

I believe you capitalize both the E and F when spelling 'Egg on Face' :lol:


Exactly, so the focus of the conversation should go back to why any of this was even necessary - that's the *real* issue. As Tom Nichols pointed out so well:

"Donald Trump is simply too stupid to have done any of this, and the real question is, who was around him putting this bug in his ear? And I think that's one of the reasons Milley was so concerned, and rightly so"

https://twitter.com/NicolleDWallace/sta ... 07841?s=20

I doubt even Pompeo or O'Brien were putting all the crazy ideas in Trump's head. You had Sidney Powell and Rudy coming around the WH after the election, you had even stranger characters talking to POTUS on the phone, you had Stephen Miller constantly in POTUS's ear. Milley and others knew none of these people could be trusted to offer good or useful counsel to POTUS.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 210
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:06 pm

Dutchy wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I 100% agree that the two party system sucks. I don't fit nicely into either box. I might have some strong conservatives views on specific issues, but I am very libertarian on a lot too.


I'm on the same boat but I'm pretty sure nothing will change.
2 party system is perfect to keep people focused on themselves instead of the ruler class and the stuff they actually do.


The people in power will never change the system that puts them in power in the first place. It is completely logical and understandable, but that is the problem.


The US has processes in place to rectify this, but so far no one wants to upset the applecart. The States can call a Convention of States and make the changes and the "powers that be" in DC can't do anything about it. I am curious if we are getting close to that happening.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:42 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
There is a constitution, there are elections, its supposed to be a civilian controlled goverment. Even if we hate the guy in command, we can't just go over the system that has kept in check this Republic for a long time. That's the difference between the US and any other nation, it has been the longest running democracy, no one can say they are longer than the US exactly because the Constitution and the democratic system in place.


That all changed on January 6th. It was well on the way beforehand, but Jan 6th 2021 was the day when 7.3 billion people learned, if they hadn't already, that the US had no right to suggest how any other nation should be governed (which is a bit rich when being written by a Brit) or to suggest for even a millisecond that it had a stable, admirable system of administration.

With regard to the issue of the topic... my first question would not be "should General Milley face charges?". It would be "why in the world would a sane, intelligent man feel the need to do such a thing?"
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:13 pm

What I am still reading on this thread is, this had to be done because it was Trump.

And we needed to go above the established system (Constitution) because Trump was going to forgo the Constitution too.

So, in other words, Trump was going to do a coup, the only solution is to do a coup before he does a coup. A race before the coup of sorts.

BTW, did Trump refuse to leave the WH? I believe he left there on his own accord. So all this talk about coup, is nonsense all speculation and hype created by the media that hated Trump and promulgated by the Washington establishment which also hated Trump.

Did he do bad by enticing a crowd of his supporters on Jan 6th? yes he did. All sane and responsible people will never agree with that, but that he was going around organizing a coup, that's speculation based on media accounts and hype created by his enemies. At the end Jan 6th the constitution prevailed and Biden was certified winner of the election, as it should have, and the constitution prevailed. Not the bunch of idiots who unlawfully entered the capitol trying to prevent that. They did not win, and if that's what people say Trump wanted, it did not happen.

Aaron747 wrote:
skyservice_330 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
So getting back on track here, according to this Fox report, it's all coming out now. General Milley was not out of line, the original orders were from former SecDef Esper, and acting SecDef Miller has walked back the comments in which he claimed he 'didn't know' about the China communications and now admits his team members took similar action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-TplaqTvro

To recap:

1. In October, SecDef Esper orders reassurance communications to China that no attacks are planned.

2. January 1 - Talking points for another call with China went out from SecDef's office (OSD)

3. January 4 - Calls to China coordinated by OSD

4. January 6 - SecDef's China policy attache speaks to counterpart in Beijing

5. January 8 - Gen. Milley speaks with his Chinese counterpart

https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/statu ... 1943?s=204

Awaiting the apologies from various right wing media figures and members of Congress calling for court martials and treason trials that will never come... :shhh:


So, in short, Trumps own people and appointees were undertaking similar actions? It wasn't just the actions of a single treasonous, coup planning, military man despite the emphatic assertions of right wing commentators?

I believe you capitalize both the E and F when spelling 'Egg on Face' :lol:


Exactly, so the focus of the conversation should go back to why any of this was even necessary - that's the *real* issue. As Tom Nichols pointed out so well:

"Donald Trump is simply too stupid to have done any of this, and the real question is, who was around him putting this bug in his ear? And I think that's one of the reasons Milley was so concerned, and rightly so"

https://twitter.com/NicolleDWallace/sta ... 07841?s=20

I doubt even Pompeo or O'Brien were putting all the crazy ideas in Trump's head. You had Sidney Powell and Rudy coming around the WH after the election, you had even stranger characters talking to POTUS on the phone, you had Stephen Miller constantly in POTUS's ear. Milley and others knew none of these people could be trusted to offer good or useful counsel to POTUS.


Enough with the straw man. The problem was *never* the communications.

The basic problem is: Telling the Chinese you will let the know before you attack. That's the key issue here. That's very serious and no one ever on their right mind who controls a military will say such a thing. You lose the element of surprise if you let your adversary or enemy you will attack them. So lets not change things. Milley hasn't disputed this yet, and hopefully under oath he can say if he did such things. If not, then good for him.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:56 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
What I am still reading on this thread is, this had to be done because it was Trump.

And we needed to go above the established system (Constitution) because Trump was going to forgo the Constitution too.


Again, who 'went above' and how? SecDef and CJCS were doing their jobs - they are appointed Cabinet members, with duties delegated by the executive. Totally Constitutional.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
BTW, did Trump refuse to leave the WH? I believe he left there on his own accord. So all this talk about coup, is nonsense all speculation and hype created by the media that hated Trump and promulgated by the Washington establishment which also hated Trump.


Not a coup. He was inviting weirdos to the WH to entertain bizarre theories about the election and asking the VP not to perform the election certification in Congress required of his position by the Constitution. Not worthy of any concern, really?

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Did he do bad by enticing a crowd of his supporters on Jan 6th? yes he did. All sane and responsible people will never agree with that, but that he was going around organizing a coup, that's speculation based on media accounts and hype created by his enemies. At the end Jan 6th the constitution prevailed and Biden was certified winner of the election, as it should have, and the constitution prevailed. Not the bunch of idiots who unlawfully entered the capitol trying to prevent that. They did not win, and if that's what people say Trump wanted, it did not happen.


Okay, but most of these actions were prior to that day. None of that was known then. Try sticking to a proper timeline.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
The basic problem is: Telling the Chinese you will let the know before you attack. That's the key issue here. That's very serious and no one ever on their right mind who controls a military will say such a thing. You lose the element of surprise if you let your adversary or enemy you will attack them.


There was no war happening. This is irrelevant. The context here is important - they could be referring to Chinese intel about speculation of attack, they could be referring to a rogue attack order, anything of that nature. It's a non-normal operation either way, and SecDef had anyway decided assurances were needed to prevent China from jumping to any conclusions.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12579
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:59 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:

I'm on the same boat but I'm pretty sure nothing will change.
2 party system is perfect to keep people focused on themselves instead of the ruler class and the stuff they actually do.


The people in power will never change the system that puts them in power in the first place. It is completely logical and understandable, but that is the problem.


The US has processes in place to rectify this, but so far no one wants to upset the applecart. The States can call a Convention of States and make the changes and the "powers that be" in DC can't do anything about it. I am curious if we are getting close to that happening.


interesting, you learn something every day, thank you sir ;-).

interesting dynsamic if the States have a nucleair option.
 
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PixelPilot
Posts: 696
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:16 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:

I'm on the same boat but I'm pretty sure nothing will change.
2 party system is perfect to keep people focused on themselves instead of the ruler class and the stuff they actually do.


The people in power will never change the system that puts them in power in the first place. It is completely logical and understandable, but that is the problem.


The US has processes in place to rectify this, but so far no one wants to upset the applecart. The States can call a Convention of States and make the changes and the "powers that be" in DC can't do anything about it. I am curious if we are getting close to that happening.


Never knew about it.
Quick google search gave me this, so your last sentence might be right on point.
https://conventionofstates.com/
 
bpatus297
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

The people in power will never change the system that puts them in power in the first place. It is completely logical and understandable, but that is the problem.


The US has processes in place to rectify this, but so far no one wants to upset the applecart. The States can call a Convention of States and make the changes and the "powers that be" in DC can't do anything about it. I am curious if we are getting close to that happening.


interesting, you learn something every day, thank you sir ;-).

interesting dynsamic if the States have a nucleair option.


In America, the States have most of the power. The feds are supposed to be limited in what they have jurisdiction over. Of course the feds have slowly chipped away at what power States have left, but that what is supposed to be.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:26 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Quick google search gave me this, so your last sentence might be right on point.
https://conventionofstates.com/


The list of endorsements at the bottom of that page would suggest it's very much a Republican movement.

I googles the name of one of the people I hadn't heard of and it turns out he was a Fox News contributor for more than a decade, so also very much the red side of purple.

Are there (m)any Dems in that list?
 
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seahawk
Posts: 10369
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:02 pm

Aaron747 wrote:

There was no war happening. This is irrelevant. The context here is important - they could be referring to Chinese intel about speculation of attack, they could be referring to a rogue attack order, anything of that nature. It's a non-normal operation either way, and SecDef had anyway decided assurances were needed to prevent China from jumping to any conclusions.


The shocking fact that remains is, that the SecDef saw the need to inform the Chinese but did not approach the Vice President about the president being not fit for duty.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:10 pm

seahawk wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

There was no war happening. This is irrelevant. The context here is important - they could be referring to Chinese intel about speculation of attack, they could be referring to a rogue attack order, anything of that nature. It's a non-normal operation either way, and SecDef had anyway decided assurances were needed to prevent China from jumping to any conclusions.


The shocking fact that remains is, that the SecDef saw the need to inform the Chinese but did not approach the Vice President about the president being not fit for duty.

Can you inform someone that already knows what you telling them? (Also the Chinese were not "informed" that the President wasn't "fit for duty".)

Tugg
 
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Aesma
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:02 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
In America, the States have most of the power. The feds are supposed to be limited in what they have jurisdiction over. Of course the feds have slowly chipped away at what power States have left, but that what is supposed to be.


You can't wage a major war if you need to ask permission for every move to 50 states...
 
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seb146
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:12 pm

seahawk wrote:
seb146 wrote:
seahawk wrote:

Absolutely shocking. This is close to a coup by the military and should be considered treason at least, as he was leaking information to the Chinese.


Joint Chiefs decided the former occupant would go rogue and do whatever he wanted. Military leaders saw dear leader as a threat to national security. Simply calling another nation and saying "we think our guy does not know what he is doing and will wait until someone competent comes in" is not treason or leaking information.


Should they not contact the vice president and other elected officials to get an impeachment in such cases?


Impeachment, as we saw twice with the former occupant, starts with investigations in the House. If they believe what happened rises to the level of charges being brought, that is where the case moves to the full House chamber to decide if there should be a trial to convict or acquit of impeachment charges. If the House votes to send the articles on to the Senate, the president is then impeached and must stand trial in the Senate. Plenty of elected officials get a say in impeachment.

For military strategies, not so much.
 
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seb146
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:14 pm

Aesma wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
In America, the States have most of the power. The feds are supposed to be limited in what they have jurisdiction over. Of course the feds have slowly chipped away at what power States have left, but that what is supposed to be.


You can't wage a major war if you need to ask permission for every move to 50 states...


In theory, declarations of war are only made by Congress. The last time that happened was 1941. We now have Authorization To Use Military Force which bypasses Congress.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:18 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
The basic problem is: Telling the Chinese you will let the know before you attack. That's the key issue here.

But he did not tell China of an impending attack. He only said he would do so. But how can you be certain he would have done so? It’s not like senior officials in the Trump administration are known for keeping their word.

I again repeat my point made earlier, had Trump gone mental and attacked China, and had Milley said nothing, then you and everyone else complaining would be praising Milley for lulling China into a false sense of security. I am sure he’d be getting medals by the bucket, and I am equally sure you would be one of the folks crying loudest for it to happen.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:19 pm

Aesma wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
In America, the States have most of the power. The feds are supposed to be limited in what they have jurisdiction over. Of course the feds have slowly chipped away at what power States have left, but that what is supposed to be.


You can't wage a major war if you need to ask permission for every move to 50 states...


National defense is a Federal issue.
 
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par13del
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:33 pm

Aesma wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I think this thread is going to be locked soon.
My last comment: I think that many here are blinded by their hatred for Trump and THEREFORE condone the action of Milley. Had Milley done his deed last week under Biden, I bet that we would have had a completely different discussion.


It's not hatred. The general is not hateful. He simply saw that Trump was so dumb, incompetent and not all there, that he could start a nuclear war for no good reason.

The problem isn't what the general did, it's that he had to do it. Trump should never have been allowed near the presidency, or at least he should have been removed long before it came to this.

So the reason why he served his full term is????????
The reason why WWIII did not start as predicted before his win was????
The reason why all immigrants were not deported during his tenure is????

A senior military officer working on rhetoric, really?
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And the longest continues running democracy? Interesting, based on what exactly?

We can very easily conclude that the American democratic system, isn't the best political system, not by a long shot. Just look at the way it is manipulated and contributes to dividing a nation, instead of unifying one. Be careful with such claims, especially on an international forum or you get reactions like this.


(I am going to be a hypocrite and reply in this thread anyway....)
In my opinion, The Netherlands is "more democratic" than the US, as it is based on equal representation. The fact that this leads to a plurality of parties that are then forced to compromise is all the better. There is also less of a chance of "oligarchs seizing control" as it is much more difficult to bribe multiple parties than just one or two parties.
 
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jbpdx
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:29 pm

trump is a sociopath.
Milley is a hero.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:15 pm

Dutchy wrote:


Speculation.on your part, followed by a conclusion on your speculation.


Not really you wrote the following

Dutchy wrote:
We can very easily conclude that the American democratic system, isn't the best political system, not by a long shot. Just look at the way it is manipulated and contributes to dividing a nation, instead of unifying one.


Here is a poor attempt to bash the US political system by inventing to falsehoods about it. You are clearly inferring that by it's design it is responsible for dividing the nation. Where if you looked at it from a objective point of view it's designed (along with the electoral college) to be the fairest and keep the most people represented. Does it work perfect? No but the polarization and such is a result of the toxic propaganda recited hourly on the MSM.

par13del wrote:

So the reason why he served his full term is????????
The reason why WWIII did not start as predicted before his win was????
The reason why all immigrants were not deported during his tenure is????

A senior military officer working on rhetoric, really?


To be honest I think this General as well as the entire MSM et al invented this as they went. I mean from day 1 all we heard was Trump wouldn't finish out his term. That he would resign or be removed on mental grounds. When this didn't pan out a bunch of very crazy people had to invent it as they went. Then they had to fabricate this fallacy that Trump would not leave office if he lost and when that myth exploded we get this latest crap that he was going to start a war with China? Again there was absolutely no grounds or any evidence of this but this General felt the need to make these calls? He is an embarrassment to the uniform.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:27 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
I mean from day 1 all we heard was Trump wouldn't finish out his term. That he would resign or be removed on mental grounds. When this didn't pan out a bunch of very crazy people had to invent it as they went. Then they had to fabricate this fallacy that Trump would not leave office if he lost and when that myth exploded we get this latest crap that he was going to start a war with China?


I seem to remember you making lots of predictions about Trump, none of which were correct. :spin:
 
LMP737
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:44 pm

extender wrote:
. He also shares responsibility for the botched exit from Afghanistan whereby the Taliban was left with lots of weapons, equipment, ammunition etc. ]


Exactly how so? He's an advisor to the President. What was he going to advise? Was he going to tell the president that we needed to totally disarm the ANA? That would have been the only way to keep US supplied weapons out of the hands of the Taliban. The vast majority of said weaponry already belonged to the ANA. Why, because when the US finally pulled out we either took the gear with us or gave it to the Afgan Army

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