It is making a comeback: Milley should resign.
Link
This came about the Joint Chiefs being questioned in the Senate over the advice to President Biden over troops in Afghanistan yesterday. There seems to be conflicting information whereas Biden has said that no one told him about keeping a small (2,500 troops) in Afghanistan to George Stephanopoulos Link to transcript. Before the Senate Armed Service Committee, the Chiefs did say they passed their advice on to the President.
When Milley was asked what he told the President, he said he would not divulge that. Senator Blackburn grilled him further. This all comes about providing troops AFTER they were out of Kabul.
Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
extender wrote:It is making a comeback: Milley should resign.
Link
This came about the Joint Chiefs being questioned in the Senate over the advice to President Biden over troops in Afghanistan yesterday. There seems to be conflicting information whereas Biden has said that no one told him about keeping a small (2,500 troops) in Afghanistan to George Stephanopoulos Link to transcript. Before the Senate Armed Service Committee, the Chiefs did say they passed their advice on to the President.
When Milley was asked what he told the President, he said he would not divulge that. Senator Blackburn grilled him further. This all comes about providing troops AFTER they were out of Kabul.
There is no need to resign. From the testimony it is clear Fitzpatrick and Milley were doing their jobs. What is also clear is that Biden either forgot the meeting details when he was interviewed by ABC, or told a lie. There is no reason to disbelieve what two high DoD officials said under oath. Members of the Armed Services Committee should ask Biden to explain which it was, but it's unlikely they will.
What's silly is that Steven Crowder and other members of the moronsphere in right wing media are still calling the China calls 'treason'. It's clear now they were initiated by civilian DoD leadership, and they were part of normal communications to keep Chinese counterparts calm and prevent any stupid assumptions from taking root. Every time these malcontents cry treason they show they don't understand intergovernmental processes and have never read legal definitions of treason.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
Aaron747 wrote:extender wrote:It is making a comeback: Milley should resign.
Link
This came about the Joint Chiefs being questioned in the Senate over the advice to President Biden over troops in Afghanistan yesterday. There seems to be conflicting information whereas Biden has said that no one told him about keeping a small (2,500 troops) in Afghanistan to George Stephanopoulos Link to transcript. Before the Senate Armed Service Committee, the Chiefs did say they passed their advice on to the President.
When Milley was asked what he told the President, he said he would not divulge that. Senator Blackburn grilled him further. This all comes about providing troops AFTER they were out of Kabul.
There is no need to resign. From the testimony it is clear Fitzpatrick and Milley were doing their jobs. What is also clear is that Biden either forgot the meeting details when he was interviewed by ABC, or told a lie. There is no reason to disbelieve what two high DoD officials said under oath. Members of the Armed Services Committee should ask Biden to explain which it was, but it's unlikely they will.
What's silly is that Steven Crowder and other members of the moronsphere in right wing media are still calling the China calls 'treason'. It's clear now they were initiated by civilian DoD leadership, and they were part of normal communications to keep Chinese counterparts calm and prevent any stupid assumptions from taking root. Every time these malcontents cry treason they show they don't understand intergovernmental processes and have never read legal definitions of treason.
Nothing was really proven. What is clear is that the General has told his side, now we need to hear Esper's story.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
bpatus297 wrote:Aaron747 wrote:extender wrote:It is making a comeback: Milley should resign.
Link
This came about the Joint Chiefs being questioned in the Senate over the advice to President Biden over troops in Afghanistan yesterday. There seems to be conflicting information whereas Biden has said that no one told him about keeping a small (2,500 troops) in Afghanistan to George Stephanopoulos Link to transcript. Before the Senate Armed Service Committee, the Chiefs did say they passed their advice on to the President.
When Milley was asked what he told the President, he said he would not divulge that. Senator Blackburn grilled him further. This all comes about providing troops AFTER they were out of Kabul.
There is no need to resign. From the testimony it is clear Fitzpatrick and Milley were doing their jobs. What is also clear is that Biden either forgot the meeting details when he was interviewed by ABC, or told a lie. There is no reason to disbelieve what two high DoD officials said under oath. Members of the Armed Services Committee should ask Biden to explain which it was, but it's unlikely they will.
What's silly is that Steven Crowder and other members of the moronsphere in right wing media are still calling the China calls 'treason'. It's clear now they were initiated by civilian DoD leadership, and they were part of normal communications to keep Chinese counterparts calm and prevent any stupid assumptions from taking root. Every time these malcontents cry treason they show they don't understand intergovernmental processes and have never read legal definitions of treason.
Nothing was really proven. What is clear is that the General has told his side, now we need to hear Esper's story.
Not so. Seems like you missed reply 75, so I'll quote myself here:
So getting back on track here, according to this Fox report, it's all coming out now. General Milley was not out of line, the original orders were from former SecDef Esper, and acting SecDef Miller has walked back the comments in which he claimed he 'didn't know' about the China communications and now admits his team members took similar action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-TplaqTvro
To recap:
1. In October, SecDef Esper orders reassurance communications to China that no attacks are planned.
2. January 1 - Talking points for another call with China went out from SecDef's office (OSD)
3. January 4 - Calls to China coordinated by OSD
4. January 6 - SecDef's China policy attache speaks to counterpart in Beijing
5. January 8 - Gen. Milley speaks with his Chinese counterpart
https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/statu ... 1943?s=204
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
Aaron747 wrote:bpatus297 wrote:Aaron747 wrote:
There is no need to resign. From the testimony it is clear Fitzpatrick and Milley were doing their jobs. What is also clear is that Biden either forgot the meeting details when he was interviewed by ABC, or told a lie. There is no reason to disbelieve what two high DoD officials said under oath. Members of the Armed Services Committee should ask Biden to explain which it was, but it's unlikely they will.
What's silly is that Steven Crowder and other members of the moronsphere in right wing media are still calling the China calls 'treason'. It's clear now they were initiated by civilian DoD leadership, and they were part of normal communications to keep Chinese counterparts calm and prevent any stupid assumptions from taking root. Every time these malcontents cry treason they show they don't understand intergovernmental processes and have never read legal definitions of treason.
Nothing was really proven. What is clear is that the General has told his side, now we need to hear Esper's story.
Not so. Seems like you missed reply 75, so I'll quote myself here:
So getting back on track here, according to this Fox report, it's all coming out now. General Milley was not out of line, the original orders were from former SecDef Esper, and acting SecDef Miller has walked back the comments in which he claimed he 'didn't know' about the China communications and now admits his team members took similar action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-TplaqTvro
To recap:
1. In October, SecDef Esper orders reassurance communications to China that no attacks are planned.
2. January 1 - Talking points for another call with China went out from SecDef's office (OSD)
3. January 4 - Calls to China coordinated by OSD
4. January 6 - SecDef's China policy attache speaks to counterpart in Beijing
5. January 8 - Gen. Milley speaks with his Chinese counterpart
https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/statu ... 1943?s=204
If that's the case, seems to be a non-story. See how easy that was to admit.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
bpatus297 wrote:Aaron747 wrote:bpatus297 wrote:
Nothing was really proven. What is clear is that the General has told his side, now we need to hear Esper's story.
Not so. Seems like you missed reply 75, so I'll quote myself here:
So getting back on track here, according to this Fox report, it's all coming out now. General Milley was not out of line, the original orders were from former SecDef Esper, and acting SecDef Miller has walked back the comments in which he claimed he 'didn't know' about the China communications and now admits his team members took similar action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-TplaqTvro
To recap:
1. In October, SecDef Esper orders reassurance communications to China that no attacks are planned.
2. January 1 - Talking points for another call with China went out from SecDef's office (OSD)
3. January 4 - Calls to China coordinated by OSD
4. January 6 - SecDef's China policy attache speaks to counterpart in Beijing
5. January 8 - Gen. Milley speaks with his Chinese counterpart
https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/statu ... 1943?s=204
If that's the case, seems to be a non-story. See how easy that was to admit.
For you, maybe - still legions out there claiming treason, trying to keep their grift going. Disgusting.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
Milley made an interesting statement under oath about other members of the administration being on the call to China when he was talking to their general. This was not Milley going rogue and simply calling a Chinese general out of the blue. The administration knew. So, yes, a non-story.
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
The president of the US is not, by the constitution, sovereign. Recent congressional legislation along with natural political dynamics have given the president almost sovereign powers. This is a serious problem and there may not be a solution.
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
From Benghazi, to election audits to Milley...you really need to applaud the rights ability to beat a dead horse.
Hint - sometimes you won't get water out of the stone. No matter how hard you squeeze, and no matter how much you have convinced yourself the stone is full of water.
Hint - sometimes you won't get water out of the stone. No matter how hard you squeeze, and no matter how much you have convinced yourself the stone is full of water.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
And sometimes, you have no way to excuse the bungled exit from Afghanistan.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
extender wrote:And sometimes, you have no way to excuse the bungled exit from Afghanistan.
Ah but that topic requires specificity. What is the bungle, exactly? Judging by the right media coverage, it's hard to tell what the rub actually is - the 13 servicemen killed by terrorists? The premature closure of Bagram AB? The Afghan helpers left behind? The unvetted Afghans supposedly 'invading' America? Americans who had four months' warning to leave and still didn't and were left behind? The equipment the Taliban are supposedly having a field day with? The fact that the government fell, Talibs are going to run roughshod over the country again, and AQ and other nefarious groups may reconstitute? Lotsa moving parts.
About half of those mentioned are either misreported or out of context. Taliban getting the country back is a consequence of Pompeo's deal. The plight of Afghan helpers is on two administrations. The 13 dead servicemen is on the terrorists who killed them. I would say Biden's major bungles are: the inflexible deadline, premature closure of Bagram, and assuming a couple major warnings from the Kabul embassy would be enough to get Americans to leave while airline service was still functioning.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
extender wrote:And sometimes, you have no way to excuse the bungled exit from Afghanistan.
The only thing, as yesterday's testimony showed that was bungled, was leaving some US citizens in Afghanistan. It does now seem that the number there now is less than 100, and after yesterday around 80.
2500 troops were left there prior to the exit. Testimony yesterday said that it was highly likely if the exit was delayed in any way, then US forces would have ended up in fighting with the Taliban. The US was not, under Trump or now under Biden ever going to re-insert tens of thousands of troops to try to re-establish control of parts of the country. The country was half lost when Biden came to power, due to a rubbish deal negotiated by Trump and failure of anyone of any importance to recognise just how much of the country was not under Afghan control, or prepared to be handed over (through Taliban > local tribe back handers) since 2014). The deal clearly trashed morale within the Afghan government and military. There was seemingly zero comeback against the Taliban when they didn't hold up their side of the deal. As was said only 1 out of 5 conditions was met (not attacking US or coalition forces). All of this before Biden took office.
They said Biden gave them all the support they asked for. That the exit was planned and executed by the DOD and Military.
You could have left earlier - the country would simply have fallen earlier. You couldn't leave people there.. the result would be the same as is now. Milley said they think they made a mistake concentrating too much on technology and not keeping observers embedded with the Afghan Army for longer. Not keeping on the ground long enough. Those are all valid points.
So what exactly is Biden's fault here?
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
Reinhardt wrote:All of this before Biden took office.
They said Biden gave them all the support they asked for. That the exit was planned and executed by the DOD and Military.
So what exactly is Biden's fault here?
Sorry, Biden owns this. The fact that his advisers are saying yes, and Biden says no, is inconvenient. Either way you look at it, it was an outright disaster, and someone needs to be accountable.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
Trump negotiated a US exit with the Taliban. Not a US exit but we'll leave 2500 troops to prop up the government. The government wasn't even part of the deal. Trump gave (or let's say, left) Afghanistan to the Taliban.
Milley also explained why there is no reason for him to resign.
extender wrote:It is making a comeback: Milley should resign.
Link
This came about the Joint Chiefs being questioned in the Senate over the advice to President Biden over troops in Afghanistan yesterday. There seems to be conflicting information whereas Biden has said that no one told him about keeping a small (2,500 troops) in Afghanistan to George Stephanopoulos Link to transcript. Before the Senate Armed Service Committee, the Chiefs did say they passed their advice on to the President.
When Milley was asked what he told the President, he said he would not divulge that. Senator Blackburn grilled him further. This all comes about providing troops AFTER they were out of Kabul.
Milley also explained why there is no reason for him to resign.
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
I have mentioned before. Trump negotiated a crappy deal with the Taliban. It was about the best that could be done. I did not trash him for it. Biden directed the crappy withdrawal. It was about the best that could be done. I will not trash him for it. We are out of Afghanistan. They know what we will do if they allow terrorists to once again attack the US. Both Trump and Biden are/would be willing to do it.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
extender wrote:Reinhardt wrote:All of this before Biden took office.
They said Biden gave them all the support they asked for. That the exit was planned and executed by the DOD and Military.
So what exactly is Biden's fault here?
Sorry, Biden owns this. The fact that his advisers are saying yes, and Biden says no, is inconvenient. Either way you look at it, it was an outright disaster, and someone needs to be accountable.
Simply unrealistic - exit under the conditions Pompeo agreed to was always going to turn out messy like this. Two administrations own this. The only way for Biden to improve outcomes was to violate the deal and send in more troops, but that would be its own shitty outcome. That’s the FL350 view without blinders on bud.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
The GOP folks attacking General Milley fail to understand that Senior Officers in his position have been known to communicate with their counterparts in other countries going back easily since the end of World War II. That's both friends and foes. If Trump doesn't understand this well established tradition is might be because Trump doesn't understand how the Presidency and his/her Administration works - and he never understood.
We are lucky to have had General Milley in his position, but it will always be a target for those who do not support the President of the Day.
We are lucky to have had General Milley in his position, but it will always be a target for those who do not support the President of the Day.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
extender wrote:Reinhardt wrote:All of this before Biden took office.
They said Biden gave them all the support they asked for. That the exit was planned and executed by the DOD and Military.
So what exactly is Biden's fault here?
Sorry, Biden owns this. The fact that his advisers are saying yes, and Biden says no, is inconvenient. Either way you look at it, it was an outright disaster, and someone needs to be accountable.
Yes you're right, someone does need to be held accountable for Afghanistan falling back into the hands of the Taliban. And those two people are Trump and Pompeo. And they should be banned from ever holding public office ever again. Actually Trump should be in jail but that's for other topics not this one. This was just outright incompetence and just wanting out at any cost as quickly as possible. If they really cared about the agreement working long term they would have involved the Afghan government and they would not have let out 5000 Taliban prisoners when the Taliban were breaching 4 out of 5 parts of the agreement.
So back to the thread, should Milley face charges for talking to the Chinese with the full knowledge of the previous administration and it being something that happened all the time? No.
Should Biden be held responsible for Afghanistan failing? No.
Should Biden be questioned whether he lied on national TV or if he just forgot about the 2500 troop number? Yes. Is that enough to demand anything other than a clarification statement from him? No.
Should Biden or the Military be held responsible for the deaths of US troops by a suicide bomber in Kabul? No. Should they be held responsible for not getting every single person the US worked with out of the Afghan? Possibly, but according to the Generals they were given every resource they asked for by Biden so at worse it's on the Military. We don't know who these people are or why they couldn't be gotten out. But considering the deadline (which could not be moved as the general's clearly stated without the Taliban effectively going to war with US forces) they did damned well to get out as many as they did.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
frmrCapCadet wrote:The president of the US is not, by the constitution, sovereign. Recent congressional legislation along with natural political dynamics have given the president almost sovereign powers. This is a serious problem and there may not be a solution.
Why can't Congress take back what they did? Congress did this. Make them undo it.
That has nothing at all to do with Milley making phone calls the administration knew he was making and the administration was a part of.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
Ken777 wrote:The GOP folks attacking General Milley fail to understand that Senior Officers in his position have been known to communicate with their counterparts in other countries going back easily since the end of World War II. That's both friends and foes. If Trump doesn't understand this well established tradition is might be because Trump doesn't understand how the Presidency and his/her Administration works - and he never understood.
We are lucky to have had General Milley in his position, but it will always be a target for those who do not support the President of the Day.
I have lost all respect for Milley because of the way this has been handled. The whole Trump thing doesn't even bother me. It was the fact that I believe he and the other Generals practically lied to Joe Biden about what was going on in Afghanistan thinking that he was going to cave and keep the troops in there. I give Joe Biden a lot of credit for Afghanistan. We needed to get out of there, and to his credit, Biden gave a big middle finger to the pentagon and made sure it happened. I will always respect Biden for that.
Milley should be fired as Chair of the Joint Chiefs, and a lot of other Generals need to go as well. There needs to be a serious house cleaning at the Pentagon in my opinion. And Biden needs to get credit for this. He did exactly the right thing. People who say otherwise are either Republicans using it for talking points, or the Military Industrial Complex upset that their gravy train has just dried up.
Reinhardt wrote:extender wrote:Reinhardt wrote:All of this before Biden took office.
They said Biden gave them all the support they asked for. That the exit was planned and executed by the DOD and Military.
So what exactly is Biden's fault here?
Sorry, Biden owns this. The fact that his advisers are saying yes, and Biden says no, is inconvenient. Either way you look at it, it was an outright disaster, and someone needs to be accountable.
Yes you're right, someone does need to be held accountable for Afghanistan falling back into the hands of the Taliban. And those two people are Trump and Pompeo. And they should be banned from ever holding public office ever again. Actually Trump should be in jail but that's for other topics not this one. This was just outright incompetence and just wanting out at any cost as quickly as possible. If they really cared about the agreement working long term they would have involved the Afghan government and they would not have let out 5000 Taliban prisoners when the Taliban were breaching 4 out of 5 parts of the agreement.
So back to the thread, should Milley face charges for talking to the Chinese with the full knowledge of the previous administration and it being something that happened all the time? No.
Should Biden be held responsible for Afghanistan failing? No.
Should Biden be questioned whether he lied on national TV or if he just forgot about the 2500 troop number? Yes. Is that enough to demand anything other than a clarification statement from him? No.
Should Biden or the Military be held responsible for the deaths of US troops by a suicide bomber in Kabul? No. Should they be held responsible for not getting every single person the US worked with out of the Afghan? Possibly, but according to the Generals they were given every resource they asked for by Biden so at worse it's on the Military. We don't know who these people are or why they couldn't be gotten out. But considering the deadline (which could not be moved as the general's clearly stated without the Taliban effectively going to war with US forces) they did damned well to get out as many as they did.
I agree with most of your statement except blaming Trump. Trump and Biden had the exact same position on Afghanistan. The only criticism I have of Trump is he didn't get it done and Biden did. The other people I blame for Afghanistan are George W. Bush for getting us into the mess in the first place, Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney for convincing him to do it, Barack Obama for not standing up to the Pentagon when he was in office, and just about every Defense Secretary and Joint Chiefs chairman who were never honest with us about what was truly happening there.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
And now Trump is admitting to being clueless just like others are accusing Biden of being. He admits he does not remember having Milley make calls to his Chinese counterpart. He can frame it however he wants but basically he forgot what he told his staff to do.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- ... fghanistan
Tugg
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- ... fghanistan
Tugg
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
seb146 wrote:seahawk wrote:seb146 wrote:
So are you for or against Milley talking to Chinese military leaders to avoid a nuclear war because the previous administration was considering it? That is why this is a topic: The previous administration actually considered going to war with China. It had not been on the table under Obama or Bush or Clinton. But, for some reason, American military leaders had to intervene and talk with China.
I am against the military talking to the Chinese, I am also against leaving such an unstable US government in power.
OUR AMERICAN military decided to talk to the Chinese before the previous administration could do anything. OUR AMERICAN military leaders decided there was enough of a legitimate threat coming from the White House that they, again OUR AMERICAN military leaders, felt they had to intervene and talk to the Chinese military leaders. The Chinese did not decide this OUR AMERICAN military leaders decided this.
Do you have link clearly stating OUR government or OUR president was planning nuclear war with China?
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
frmrCapCadet wrote:I have mentioned before. Trump negotiated a crappy deal with the Taliban. It was about the best that could be done. I did not trash him for it. Biden directed the crappy withdrawal. It was about the best that could be done. I will not trash him for it. We are out of Afghanistan. They know what we will do if they allow terrorists to once again attack the US. Both Trump and Biden are/would be willing to do it.
Biden, with your approval I’d guess, tore every other Trump EO or agreement, why didn’t it tear up this one? He owns it.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
GalaxyFlyer wrote:Biden, with your approval I’d guess, tore every other Trump EO or agreement, why didn’t it tear up this one? He owns it.
It's true. When a dog poops on your lawn and leaves, your are stuck with cleaning it up. It was messy but it s done.
Tugg
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
GalaxyFlyer wrote:frmrCapCadet wrote:I have mentioned before. Trump negotiated a crappy deal with the Taliban. It was about the best that could be done. I did not trash him for it. Biden directed the crappy withdrawal. It was about the best that could be done. I will not trash him for it. We are out of Afghanistan. They know what we will do if they allow terrorists to once again attack the US. Both Trump and Biden are/would be willing to do it.
Biden, with your approval I’d guess, tore every other Trump EO or agreement, why didn’t it tear up this one? He owns it.
Could he undo the 5000 freed Talibans including their leader ?
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
GalaxyFlyer wrote:frmrCapCadet wrote:I have mentioned before. Trump negotiated a crappy deal with the Taliban. It was about the best that could be done. I did not trash him for it. Biden directed the crappy withdrawal. It was about the best that could be done. I will not trash him for it. We are out of Afghanistan. They know what we will do if they allow terrorists to once again attack the US. Both Trump and Biden are/would be willing to do it.
Biden, with your approval I’d guess, tore every other Trump EO or agreement, why didn’t it tear up this one? He owns it.
Undoing it would require something neither he or Trump wanted: going against public sentiment and putting more force presence back into AFG. Like, duh.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
GalaxyFlyer wrote:seb146 wrote:seahawk wrote:
I am against the military talking to the Chinese, I am also against leaving such an unstable US government in power.
OUR AMERICAN military decided to talk to the Chinese before the previous administration could do anything. OUR AMERICAN military leaders decided there was enough of a legitimate threat coming from the White House that they, again OUR AMERICAN military leaders, felt they had to intervene and talk to the Chinese military leaders. The Chinese did not decide this OUR AMERICAN military leaders decided this.
Do you have link clearly stating OUR government or OUR president was planning nuclear war with China?
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/09/2 ... ing-514488
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 378281002/
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
GalaxyFlyer wrote:frmrCapCadet wrote:I have mentioned before. Trump negotiated a crappy deal with the Taliban. It was about the best that could be done. I did not trash him for it. Biden directed the crappy withdrawal. It was about the best that could be done. I will not trash him for it. We are out of Afghanistan. They know what we will do if they allow terrorists to once again attack the US. Both Trump and Biden are/would be willing to do it.
Biden, with your approval I’d guess, tore every other Trump EO or agreement, why didn’t it tear up this one? He owns it.
Exactly.. Biden already moved the timeline from when Trump was going to do it. Biden wanted it to be on 9/11 but changed it maybe someone told him that was a bad idea. Either way I agree we needed to get out but it was poorly executed. I don't think it was a given it was going to go be a disaster. I don't think you could have done a worse job than Biden did. But plenty of blame on this especially George W Bush he owns it all.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
stratosphere wrote:GalaxyFlyer wrote:frmrCapCadet wrote:I have mentioned before. Trump negotiated a crappy deal with the Taliban. It was about the best that could be done. I did not trash him for it. Biden directed the crappy withdrawal. It was about the best that could be done. I will not trash him for it. We are out of Afghanistan. They know what we will do if they allow terrorists to once again attack the US. Both Trump and Biden are/would be willing to do it.
Biden, with your approval I’d guess, tore every other Trump EO or agreement, why didn’t it tear up this one? He owns it.
Exactly.. Biden already moved the timeline from when Trump was going to do it. Biden wanted it to be on 9/11 but changed it maybe someone told him that was a bad idea. Either way I agree we needed to get out but it was poorly executed. I don't think it was a given it was going to go be a disaster. I don't think you could have done a worse job than Biden did. But plenty of blame on this especially George W Bush he owns it all.
Biden gets bad marks on this one. Trump gets worse. He did the deal and had no withdrawal plan to pass off during the transition. Instead he focused all this energy on lies and subversion. That's a F- for all history. Still, Biden must own the final debacle. At a minimum he could've used historical templates for perfectly executed withdrawals of defeated invaders. You and GF sound like military men, do you have some good examples Biden and his military team could've looked to for this? I think of the Germans in Russia, the US in Vietnam, Japan in the South Pacific..should we go further back in European history? Please share, a future administration facing a similar challenge might benefit from your knowledge. God knows Trump and Pompeo didn't transfer any.
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
I think the natural dynamic of what happened in Afghanistan is that once it became obvious we were going to actually withdraw most members of the armed forces, including most leaders, were going to switch allegiance to the Taliban. The same thing would happen at all political levels. It would begin with a few, and swiftly cascade to almost everyone. I have seen no convincing arguments otherwise, nor any strategy that might have done better.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
Of course it's the natural dynamic. Never once in history has it occurred otherwise. Republicans and their entertainment PR channels parade around as if Trump would've engineered an orderly withdrawal with the Taliban showering us with garlands of respect while they formulated a new government based on American ideals of gender equality and respect for all races and creeds. You know, the ones Trump himself lived by. Then the half million to 3M Afghans that wanted to leave with us would've formed lovely queues outside the consulate while we processed visas for their new dream homes in Texas and Florida. One by one they'd board jumbo jets as they shed tears and turned one last time to gaze at their cherished homeland. Then whisked away to the waiting hugs of conservatives everywhere.
Republicans live in this fantasy world of warfare and nation-building that has these beautiful Hollywood movie endings. It's why we get into these insane debacles in the first place. Got to war? Have a plan. End a war? Have a plan. They went 0-2 in Afghanistan.
Republicans live in this fantasy world of warfare and nation-building that has these beautiful Hollywood movie endings. It's why we get into these insane debacles in the first place. Got to war? Have a plan. End a war? Have a plan. They went 0-2 in Afghanistan.
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
Dieuwer wrote:Anyone who "spills the beans" to the Chinese should face disciplinary action.
Crying about "...but but Trump" is not an excuse.
I am super curious if Trump, or potentially even more interesting, someone like Trump but more "aware to the machinations and functioning of government" gets back into power again/elected, what regime will they put in place among all these staff who ultimately report to them but have minds of their own to "defang" them from defying the commander in chief's vision. Now that this is out there, couldn't it have the possibility to reinforce a deep-state paranoia?? That I as president am always going to be second guessed unless I nip that in the bud?
Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges
Trump was elected on the principle of stopping wars. Milley was only fulfilling Trump's pledge, because in practice Trump could have started a war without realizing it (or for dubious reasons).
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