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extender
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Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:34 pm

The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff has certainly created a stir over the last two months. But this weeks bombshell is the icing on the cake for which he should face disciplinary action. He also shares responsibility for the botched exit from Afghanistan whereby the Taliban was left with lots of weapons, equipment, ammunition etc. That he circumvented the chain of command is unprecedented. It doesn't matter if it was to Trump, Biden or Obama; it is flat out wrong. My other question, why did Milley also give this information to Bob Woodward? The military command should have zero political bias.

Top general Milley reassured China, others in secret calls as Trump pushed election lies, spokesman says

Alexander Vindman Says Gen. Milley ‘Must Resign’ If Report of His Calls to China Is True: ‘He Usurped Civilian Authority’

General Milley Should Be Fired for Holding Secret, Personal Talks with China
Last edited by SQ22 on Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:05 pm

Perhaps for incompetence, but treason is way overreach. Grade determination could be real punishment. I’ve heard of 2-stars retired as majors.

https://arba.army.pentagon.mil/agdrb-overview.html
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:10 pm

There was a good, and spirited discussion in the previous thread about reasons for/against reassuring the PRC in a time of perceived political instability in the US. The pro view was mostly expressed as the need to maintain top level contacts to avoid miscommunication and assumptions, and to prevent any interpretation of changes in US strategic posture from leading to provocative actions. The con view was basically that PRC is an enemy, no such communication should be granted to them, and those communications if they occur should come only from the State Department. Those points are debatable but I would say from historic precedent when two powers are nuclear it is best to err on the side of communication - this is the best and most effective tool we have to avoid entanglements, regardless of the political landscape.

The National Review has suggested that this may be more about SecDef Esper than Milley. I suggested in the previous thread Milley is getting all the attention because of right wing media's focus on him from his 'woke' comments a few weeks ago. CIA Director Haspell was also involved. That makes a total of three Cabinet members, which negates arguments about a lack of civilian influence in this situation.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/i ... per-story/

John Bolton has also suggested today that any notion of the calls being 'secret' is false and members of the NSC and multiple DoD personnel certainly knew about them.

“I have no doubt General Milley consulted widely with his colleagues on the National Security Council and others during this period,” Mr Bolton said, dismissing claims that the call was any secret in the national security sphere. “I would also be surprised if many of them were not fully aware of General Milley’s actions, and that they fully concurred in them.”

https://news.yahoo.com/john-bolton-defe ... 18730.html

Given this background there is simply no rationale for establishing that Gen. Milley or anyone else intended harm to US interests by keeping lines open to the PRC. Claims in right wing media of a 'coup', 'junta', or 'treason' only show the pundits using them have not consulted a dictionary in some time, and are unfamiliar with existing US case law on the criteria for treason. It is unfortunate some in the media continue to see such hyperemotional language as useful or necessary on serious topics like contacts between superpowers in high-stress times.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
extender
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:11 pm

Treason would be impossible to prove, but:

§888. Art. 88. Contempt toward officials

Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 67 ; Pub. L. 96–513, title V, §511(25), Dec. 12, 1980, 94 Stat. 2922 ; Pub. L. 107–296, title XVII, §1704(b)(1), Nov. 25, 2002, 116 Stat. 2314 ; Pub. L. 109–163, div. A, title X, §1057(a)(3), Jan. 6, 2006, 119 Stat. 3440 .)


Would be for starters, there are several that if you want to throw the book at him, it would be a multi-charge court-martial.
 
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:14 pm

extender wrote:
Treason would be impossible to prove, but:

§888. Art. 88. Contempt toward officials

Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 67 ; Pub. L. 96–513, title V, §511(25), Dec. 12, 1980, 94 Stat. 2922 ; Pub. L. 107–296, title XVII, §1704(b)(1), Nov. 25, 2002, 116 Stat. 2314 ; Pub. L. 109–163, div. A, title X, §1057(a)(3), Jan. 6, 2006, 119 Stat. 3440 .)


Would be for starters, there are several that if you want to throw the book at him, it would be a multi-charge court-martial.


Contempt is also difficult to prove without an extensive written record or contemporaneous accounts of arguments of personal nature unrelated to work. Is contempt really the same mixture of emotion as not being able to conduct one's own responsibilities due to increased moodiness and unpredictability of the boss? I'm going with 'nah'.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:16 pm

There is a constitution, there are elections, its supposed to be a civilian controlled goverment. Even if we hate the guy in command, we can't just go over the system that has kept in check this Republic for a long time. That's the difference between the US and any other nation, it has been the longest running democracy, no one can say they are longer than the US exactly because the Constitution and the democratic system in place.

Even if we hate the current President, even if he stumbles his way out of a military conflict as what happened with AFG, even if the majority of the population don't approve of his work https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-quin ... id-1629239 the constitutional remedy is elections, or the 25th amendment or impeachment.

Not some back room maneuvering by some un-elected person much less a military leader. That's not how it works.

Anyone who today supports this, must know that the same can be applied to their favorite President. And they won't like it. The rules are for everyone.
 
extender
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:24 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Contempt is also difficult to prove without an extensive written record or contemporaneous accounts of arguments of personal nature unrelated to work. Is contempt really the same mixture of emotion as not being able to conduct one's own responsibilities due to increased moodiness and unpredictability of the boss? I'm going with 'nah'.


Woodward's book wouldn't cover that this was extensive?
 
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:26 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
There is a constitution, there are elections, its supposed to be a civilian controlled goverment. Even if we hate the guy in command, we can't just go over the system that has kept in check this Republic for a long time. That's the difference between the US and any other nation, it has been the longest running democracy, no one can say they are longer than the US exactly because the Constitution and the democratic system in place.

Even if we hate the current President, even if he stumbles his way out of a military conflict as what happened with AFG, even if the majority of the population don't approve of his work https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-quin ... id-1629239 the constitutional remedy is elections, or the 25th amendment or impeachment.

Not some back room maneuvering by some un-elected person much less a military leader. That's not how it works.

Anyone who today supports this, must know that the same can be applied to their favorite President. And they won't like it. The rules are for everyone.


As mentioned in the previous thread, none of the above is what occurred. And even if there was a standing mental health concern, 25th Amendment Sec 4 was never a realistic option because some members of the Cabinet would likely never concur - especially the SecState and possibly VP, who is the lynchpin in that statute. The Constitution and existing federal code offer no cover for that scenario.

The reason I say 'going over' the system didn't occur is because the foreign policy matrix in the USG is complex and opaque in some places. POTUS obviously has total authority over executive decisions, but not every little facet of foreign policy operation. Many details are delegated to SecDef and NSC under the POTUS's overall foreign policy goals and priorities. If the SecDef, CIA Director, NSC members and CJCS were in agreement about communicating with PRC regarding a particular concern analysis indicated they had, that's arguably within their purview. Military to military official level contacts are a regular part of foreign policy operations too.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:36 pm

extender wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Contempt is also difficult to prove without an extensive written record or contemporaneous accounts of arguments of personal nature unrelated to work. Is contempt really the same mixture of emotion as not being able to conduct one's own responsibilities due to increased moodiness and unpredictability of the boss? I'm going with 'nah'.


Woodward's book wouldn't cover that this was extensive?


The latter yes, but arguments of a personal nature that were acromonious - I doubt it. CIA Director Haspell reportedly said that Trump was acting like a 6 year-old in tantrums about losing the election, but that doesn't sound like contempt either - also concern about a boss becoming very moody.

https://twitter.com/RadioFreeTom/status ... 51685?s=20
Last edited by Aaron747 on Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
extender
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:50 pm

If this was done to Biden, most of the people posting support for Milley's action against Trump would be up in arms. There is NO proof of a coup.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:52 pm

Anyone who "spills the beans" to the Chinese should face disciplinary action.
Crying about "...but but Trump" is not an excuse.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:00 pm

The action taken by Gen. Milley does have precedent, in particular with President Nixon. Several times he considered using tactical nuclear bombs and in the final days before his resignation, getting drunk and having a mental breakdown, the codes were kept away from him to prevent a disaster.
https://outrider.org/nuclear-weapons/ar ... -ins-bomb/
As to the warning to top military person in China, it was better to let them know stupid stuff was happening to prevent a possible act by them with their nuke missiles if sensed a possible risk from the USA. We have very strict protocols to launch nukes, probably something learned from the fictional 'Dr. Strangelove' movie to put into place.
 
Newark727
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:01 pm

extender wrote:
If this was done to Biden, most of the people posting support for Milley's action against Trump would be up in arms. There is NO proof of a coup.


But it wasn't done to Biden, or Obama, or anyone else you may wish to name. It was done to Trump. Ask yourself why.
 
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:04 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Anyone who "spills the beans" to the Chinese should face disciplinary action.

What "beans" exactly were spilled?

Tugg
 
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:10 pm

extender wrote:
If this was done to Biden, most of the people posting support for Milley's action against Trump would be up in arms. There is NO proof of a coup.


Why does that word keep coming up? There is no relevant use of coup regarding any of this.

If this is done in response to this specific scenario for any POTUS, I would see it as logical. This is one of those exceedingly rare cases where the law doesn’t cover all the Swiss cheese holes lining up. Hopefully a revision in federal law may come about to address it as happened after Nixon.

The oaths of officials are to country and Constitution, not a particular chief executive.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:27 pm

If you have few minutes of your life this is super worth watching.
I think this guys words are absolutely spot on about what is going on in many western nations right now.
Sure the source also evolved but man it hits hard if you are able to spot it.

The reason I posted this in this thread is that again and again goalposts are moved depending on which party is leading the nation.
It doesn't matter if you like or dislike the current president/party as it's the law that should prevail but again and again, this is delegitimized depending on somebody's PERSONAL opinion.
The precedence here will "allow" overruling and undermining actions of all the following rulers/parties in the same matter. Tools placed ahead of time to undermine the legitimacy and solidity of a nation because one part/person decides to do so.

Steve Wonder would spot it but so many people act exactly like the guy in the video predicted 35 or something years ago.
It is fascinating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1EA2ohrt5Q
Last edited by PixelPilot on Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:31 pm

I think this thread is going to be locked soon.
My last comment: I think that many here are blinded by their hatred for Trump and THEREFORE condone the action of Milley. Had Milley done his deed last week under Biden, I bet that we would have had a completely different discussion.
 
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:32 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
If you have few minutes of your life this is super worth watching.
I think this guys words are absolutely spot on about what is going on in many western nations right now.
Sure the source also evolved but man it hits hard if you are able to spot it.

The reason I posted this in this thread is that again and again goalposts are moved depending on which party is leading the nation.
It doesn't matter if you like or dislike the current president/party.
The precedence here will "allow" overruling and undermining actions of all the following rulers/parties in the same matter. Tools placed ahead of time to undermine the legitimacy and solidity of a nation because one part/person decides to do so.

Steve Wonder would spot it but so many people act exactly like the guy in the video predicted 35 or something years ago.
It is fascinating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1EA2ohrt5Q


Bezmenov is a fascinating topic but probably best explored in a dedicated thread.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:34 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
If you have few minutes of your life this is super worth watching.
I think this guys words are absolutely spot on about what is going on in many western nations right now.
Sure the source also evolved but man it hits hard if you are able to spot it.

The reason I posted this in this thread is that again and again goalposts are moved depending on which party is leading the nation.
It doesn't matter if you like or dislike the current president/party.
The precedence here will "allow" overruling and undermining actions of all the following rulers/parties in the same matter. Tools placed ahead of time to undermine the legitimacy and solidity of a nation because one part/person decides to do so.

Steve Wonder would spot it but so many people act exactly like the guy in the video predicted 35 or something years ago.
It is fascinating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1EA2ohrt5Q


Bezmenov is a fascinating topic but probably best explored in a dedicated thread.


I think this is right on the topic here but if mods decide it isn't I will create a whole thread about it.
i'm really interested in peoples opinion.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:34 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
I think this thread is going to be locked soon.
My last comment: I think that many here are blinded by their hatred for Trump and THEREFORE condone the action of Milley. Had Milley done his deed last week under Biden, I bet that we would have had a completely different discussion.


I can’t speak for others, but I already stated previously upthread that if the specific context were the same, these actions would make sense to me. Who is in office is immaterial - and I would be less concerned if laws are updated to include scenarios where Cabinet members have concerns but not enough to move to Section 4 action.
 
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:36 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
If you have few minutes of your life this is super worth watching.
I think this guys words are absolutely spot on about what is going on in many western nations right now.
Sure the source also evolved but man it hits hard if you are able to spot it.

The reason I posted this in this thread is that again and again goalposts are moved depending on which party is leading the nation.
It doesn't matter if you like or dislike the current president/party.
The precedence here will "allow" overruling and undermining actions of all the following rulers/parties in the same matter. Tools placed ahead of time to undermine the legitimacy and solidity of a nation because one part/person decides to do so.

Steve Wonder would spot it but so many people act exactly like the guy in the video predicted 35 or something years ago.
It is fascinating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1EA2ohrt5Q


Bezmenov is a fascinating topic but probably best explored in a dedicated thread.


I think this is right on the topic here but if mods decide it isn't I will create a whole thread about it.
i'm really interested in peoples opinion.


I just think it’s impossible to talk about him without branching out way beyond specific WH situations.
 
extender
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:42 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
I think this thread is going to be locked soon.
My last comment: I think that many here are blinded by their hatred for Trump and THEREFORE condone the action of Milley. Had Milley done his deed last week under Biden, I bet that we would have had a completely different discussion.


Absolutely. Moving the goal posts indeed. Imagine if Milley would have had a Buck Turgidson moment.
 
Newark727
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:49 pm

This situation doesn't happen without Trump resisting the peaceful transfer of power. So no, it wouldn't happen to just any president.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:50 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
There is a constitution, there are elections, its supposed to be a civilian controlled goverment. Even if we hate the guy in command, we can't just go over the system that has kept in check this Republic for a long time. That's the difference between the US and any other nation, it has been the longest running democracy, no one can say they are longer than the US exactly because the Constitution and the democratic system in place.

Even if we hate the current President, even if he stumbles his way out of a military conflict as what happened with AFG, even if the majority of the population don't approve of his work https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-quin ... id-1629239 the constitutional remedy is elections, or the 25th amendment or impeachment.

Not some back room maneuvering by some un-elected person much less a military leader. That's not how it works.

Anyone who today supports this, must know that the same can be applied to their favorite President. And they won't like it. The rules are for everyone.


As mentioned in the previous thread, none of the above is what occurred. And even if there was a standing mental health concern, 25th Amendment Sec 4 was never a realistic option because some members of the Cabinet would likely never concur - especially the SecState and possibly VP, who is the lynchpin in that statute. The Constitution and existing federal code offer no cover for that scenario.

The reason I say 'going over' the system didn't occur is because the foreign policy matrix in the USG is complex and opaque in some places. POTUS obviously has total authority over executive decisions, but not every little facet of foreign policy operation. Many details are delegated to SecDef and NSC under the POTUS's overall foreign policy goals and priorities. If the SecDef, CIA Director, NSC members and CJCS were in agreement about communicating with PRC regarding a particular concern analysis indicated they had, that's arguably within their purview. Military to military official level contacts are a regular part of foreign policy operations too.


Agreed. Just because Trump didn't know the details does not make it "treason." A top official like Milley has some authorities to do the job they are hired to do. Maybe if Trump gave a lawful order and Milley did the exact opposite, then that would be at least insubordination. If his purpose was to aid the enemy in a battle versus the US, then that gets to be treason.
 
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:55 pm

Newark727 wrote:
This situation doesn't happen without Trump resisting the peaceful transfer of power. So no, it wouldn't happen to just any president.


BINGO! There seems to be an intentional effort to disconnect what happened from the broader events.

This happened within the context of a sitting President resisting the peaceful transfer of power, attempting to bully Cabinet members to help him cling on to power, and instructing his surrogates to take measures to keep him in power - which they did, through the violent insurrection on January 6.

Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. And it is pretty extraordinary for a sitting President to undertake the actions noted above. Arguments about 'how dare he talks to China' ignore the the realpolitik at play.
 
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:56 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
There is a constitution, there are elections, its supposed to be a civilian controlled goverment. Even if we hate the guy in command, we can't just go over the system that has kept in check this Republic for a long time. That's the difference between the US and any other nation, it has been the longest running democracy, no one can say they are longer than the US exactly because the Constitution and the democratic system in place.

Even if we hate the current President, even if he stumbles his way out of a military conflict as what happened with AFG, even if the majority of the population don't approve of his work https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-quin ... id-1629239 the constitutional remedy is elections, or the 25th amendment or impeachment.

Not some back room maneuvering by some un-elected person much less a military leader. That's not how it works.

Anyone who today supports this, must know that the same can be applied to their favorite President. And they won't like it. The rules are for everyone.


As mentioned in the previous thread, none of the above is what occurred. And even if there was a standing mental health concern, 25th Amendment Sec 4 was never a realistic option because some members of the Cabinet would likely never concur - especially the SecState and possibly VP, who is the lynchpin in that statute. The Constitution and existing federal code offer no cover for that scenario.

The reason I say 'going over' the system didn't occur is because the foreign policy matrix in the USG is complex and opaque in some places. POTUS obviously has total authority over executive decisions, but not every little facet of foreign policy operation. Many details are delegated to SecDef and NSC under the POTUS's overall foreign policy goals and priorities. If the SecDef, CIA Director, NSC members and CJCS were in agreement about communicating with PRC regarding a particular concern analysis indicated they had, that's arguably within their purview. Military to military official level contacts are a regular part of foreign policy operations too.


Agreed. Just because Trump didn't know the details does not make it "treason." A top official like Milley has some authorities to do the job they are hired to do. Maybe if Trump gave a lawful order and Milley did the exact opposite, then that would be at least insubordination. If his purpose was to aid the enemy in a battle versus the US, then that gets to be treason.


Yes, that’s exactly my read of it.

Where people are going off track here is taking an emotional or partisan tack to these actions when they are actually plainly logical.
 
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:57 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
This situation doesn't happen without Trump resisting the peaceful transfer of power. So no, it wouldn't happen to just any president.


BINGO! There seems to be an intentional effort to disconnect what happened from the broader events.

This happened within the context of a sitting President resisting the peaceful transfer of power, attempting to bully Cabinet members to help him cling on to power, and instructing his surrogates to take measures to keep him in power - which they did, through the violent insurrection on January 6.

Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. And it is pretty extraordinary for a sitting President to undertake the actions noted above. Arguments about 'how dare he talks to China' ignore the the realpolitik at play.


This time is this, other time it will be something else.
You can't close the can once you open it.

Also, you all talk like you know what happened behind closed doors. You will NEVER know which is why only the law should be the determining factor on what you can or cannot do.
Last edited by PixelPilot on Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:58 pm

extender wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I think this thread is going to be locked soon.
My last comment: I think that many here are blinded by their hatred for Trump and THEREFORE condone the action of Milley. Had Milley done his deed last week under Biden, I bet that we would have had a completely different discussion.


Absolutely. Moving the goal posts indeed. Imagine if Milley would have had a Buck Turgidson moment.


You can't cry hypocrisy when you've invented the scenario that the left would, in your imagination, be hypocritical about. It seems like you've lost control of this argument, so you've invented a completely imaginary situation just so you can be critical of the how you think people would react in your make-believe scenario.

This didn't happen to Biden. This didn't happen last week. And Buck Turgidson is a made-up character from a fiction movie.

Stay in the real world, get past the overblown rhetoric and look for REAL historical context. If you do that, you'll find this Milley situation is not nearly what you are making it out to be.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:59 pm

extender wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I think this thread is going to be locked soon.
My last comment: I think that many here are blinded by their hatred for Trump and THEREFORE condone the action of Milley. Had Milley done his deed last week under Biden, I bet that we would have had a completely different discussion.


Absolutely. Moving the goal posts indeed. Imagine if Milley would have had a Buck Turgidson moment.


People have literally said that’s not the case, so ‘absolutely’ comes across rather dismissive.

Question: does the 25th need a 5th section or addendum to Section 4 to cover this scenario? What should be done next time if key Cabinet members with massive responsibilities are concerned about POTUS but VP will not invoke Section 4? What if lives are at stake?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:03 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
skyservice_330 wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
This situation doesn't happen without Trump resisting the peaceful transfer of power. So no, it wouldn't happen to just any president.


BINGO! There seems to be an intentional effort to disconnect what happened from the broader events.

This happened within the context of a sitting President resisting the peaceful transfer of power, attempting to bully Cabinet members to help him cling on to power, and instructing his surrogates to take measures to keep him in power - which they did, through the violent insurrection on January 6.

Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. And it is pretty extraordinary for a sitting President to undertake the actions noted above. Arguments about 'how dare he talks to China' ignore the the realpolitik at play.


This time is this, other time it will be something else.
You can't close the can once you open it.

Also, you all talk like you know what happened behind closed doors. You will NEVER know which is why only the law should be the determining factor on what you can or cannot do.


In a complex realm like foreign relations, Murphy’s Law is bound to appear sooner or later. When the law doesn’t cover a specific turn of events, then what?

I think at those times, heroic actions can arise from doing what’s right, what one swore to, rather than what’s on paper. It was going outside the chain of command that likely saved a lot of our parents in 1962 when a Soviet submarine crew prevented a confusing day from going nuclear.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:05 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Question: does the 25th need a 5th section or addendum to Section 4 to cover this scenario? What should be done next time if key Cabinet members with massive responsibilities are concerned about POTUS but VP will not invoke Section 4? What if lives are at stake?


This is a great question, considering the current Commander in Chief has some mental issues, and has made some catastrophic military decisions lately which have led to US service members dying, and Americans abandoned and left to the mercy of a group of terrorists.

If the VP or the cabinet can't make the decision, I would be inclined for someone like Milley or any other Military commander to take control..... wait.. no I don't agree with that. So what would you propose?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:12 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Question: does the 25th need a 5th section or addendum to Section 4 to cover this scenario? What should be done next time if key Cabinet members with massive responsibilities are concerned about POTUS but VP will not invoke Section 4? What if lives are at stake?


So what would you propose?


I don’t know. I think the framers and the guy who wrote the 25th in the 1960s probably assumed the Cabinet and VP would always be in agreement when this kind of issue came up. This particular situation is hard to game out because everyone is 2 weeks away from needing a new job and have legacy/agendas to worry about affecting their judgment.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:14 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Question: does the 25th need a 5th section or addendum to Section 4 to cover this scenario? What should be done next time if key Cabinet members with massive responsibilities are concerned about POTUS but VP will not invoke Section 4? What if lives are at stake?


So what would you propose?


I don’t know. I think the framers and the guy who wrote the 25th in the 1960s probably assumed the Cabinet and VP would always be in agreement when this kind of issue came up. This particular situation is hard to game out because everyone is 2 weeks away from needing a new job and have legacy/agendas to worry about affecting their judgment.


Sounds like something worth having our democratic elected leaders sort out by law, written legislation. Right? In any case, there is just one president at a time, can we agree to that? Its very clear, and has worked well for this country for so long. Heck it even survived the civil war.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:15 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Question: does the 25th need a 5th section or addendum to Section 4 to cover this scenario? What should be done next time if key Cabinet members with massive responsibilities are concerned about POTUS but VP will not invoke Section 4? What if lives are at stake?


This is a great question, considering the current Commander in Chief has some mental issues, and has made some catastrophic military decisions lately which have led to US service members dying, and Americans abandoned and left to the mercy of a group of terrorists.

If the VP or the cabinet can't make the decision, I would be inclined for someone like Milley or any other Military commander to take control..... wait.. no I don't agree with that. So what would you propose?


Didn't they provide the Taliban with a list of names too? That is a direct target on them and their families. We're talking Taliban here.
That was a military decision though so it is safe to assume some people there should not be responsible for any decisions.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/2 ... ate-506957

For the most part, it is crickets though.
I mean who gives a rip. It's far from home.
Last edited by PixelPilot on Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:17 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

So what would you propose?


I don’t know. I think the framers and the guy who wrote the 25th in the 1960s probably assumed the Cabinet and VP would always be in agreement when this kind of issue came up. This particular situation is hard to game out because everyone is 2 weeks away from needing a new job and have legacy/agendas to worry about affecting their judgment.


In any case, there is just one president at a time, can we agree to that?


Everyone agrees on that, but that’s not exactly relevant here in the overall discussion. Nobody was attempting to act as second POTUS.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:18 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

I don’t know. I think the framers and the guy who wrote the 25th in the 1960s probably assumed the Cabinet and VP would always be in agreement when this kind of issue came up. This particular situation is hard to game out because everyone is 2 weeks away from needing a new job and have legacy/agendas to worry about affecting their judgment.


In any case, there is just one president at a time, can we agree to that?


Everyone agrees on that, but that’s not exactly relevant here in the overall discussion. Nobody was attempting to act as second POTUS.


You are wrong on this one and you know it. There are large groups who only accept "their" president and it doesn't matter if he is right or wrong. If you are not our then we can discredit you.
"Not my president" sound any bells?
Last edited by PixelPilot on Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:20 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

In any case, there is just one president at a time, can we agree to that?


Everyone agrees on that, but that’s not exactly relevant here in the overall discussion. Nobody was attempting to act as second POTUS.


You are wrong on this one and you know it.


?? If you can show me where anyone here has suggested we have more than one executive I’ll gladly stand corrected.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:20 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
There is a constitution, there are elections, its supposed to be a civilian controlled goverment. Even if we hate the guy in command, we can't just go over the system that has kept in check this Republic for a long time. That's the difference between the US and any other nation, it has been the longest running democracy, no one can say they are longer than the US exactly because the Constitution and the democratic system in place.

Even if we hate the current President, even if he stumbles his way out of a military conflict as what happened with AFG, even if the majority of the population don't approve of his work https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-quin ... id-1629239 the constitutional remedy is elections, or the 25th amendment or impeachment.

Not some back room maneuvering by some un-elected person much less a military leader. That's not how it works.

Anyone who today supports this, must know that the same can be applied to their favorite President. And they won't like it. The rules are for everyone.


As mentioned in the previous thread, none of the above is what occurred. And even if there was a standing mental health concern, 25th Amendment Sec 4 was never a realistic option because some members of the Cabinet would likely never concur - especially the SecState and possibly VP, who is the lynchpin in that statute. The Constitution and existing federal code offer no cover for that scenario.

The reason I say 'going over' the system didn't occur is because the foreign policy matrix in the USG is complex and opaque in some places. POTUS obviously has total authority over executive decisions, but not every little facet of foreign policy operation. Many details are delegated to SecDef and NSC under the POTUS's overall foreign policy goals and priorities. If the SecDef, CIA Director, NSC members and CJCS were in agreement about communicating with PRC regarding a particular concern analysis indicated they had, that's arguably within their purview. Military to military official level contacts are a regular part of foreign policy operations too.


Agreed. Just because Trump didn't know the details does not make it "treason." A top official like Milley has some authorities to do the job they are hired to do. Maybe if Trump gave a lawful order and Milley did the exact opposite, then that would be at least insubordination. If his purpose was to aid the enemy in a battle versus the US, then that gets to be treason.


Milley had ZERO authority to do this or anything else. He was simply an ADVIOSR and law prohibits the JCS from being in an military operational command.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 211
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:24 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Question: does the 25th need a 5th section or addendum to Section 4 to cover this scenario? What should be done next time if key Cabinet members with massive responsibilities are concerned about POTUS but VP will not invoke Section 4? What if lives are at stake?


So what would you propose?


I don’t know. I think the framers and the guy who wrote the 25th in the 1960s probably assumed the Cabinet and VP would always be in agreement when this kind of issue came up. This particular situation is hard to game out because everyone is 2 weeks away from needing a new job and have legacy/agendas to worry about affecting their judgment.


They probably would agree. A lot of what people are claiming is rumor and innuendo based on not liking Trump.
 
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seb146
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:25 pm

extender wrote:
The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff has certainly created a stir over the last two months. But this weeks bombshell is the icing on the cake for which he should face disciplinary action. He also shares responsibility for the botched exit from Afghanistan whereby the Taliban was left with lots of weapons, equipment, ammunition etc. That he circumvented the chain of command is unprecedented. It doesn't matter if it was to Trump, Biden or Obama; it is flat out wrong. My other question, why did Milley also give this information to Bob Woodward? The military command should have zero political bias.

Top general Milley reassured China, others in secret calls as Trump pushed election lies, spokesman says

Alexander Vindman Says Gen. Milley ‘Must Resign’ If Report of His Calls to China Is True: ‘He Usurped Civilian Authority’

General Milley Should Be Fired for Holding Secret, Personal Talks with China


Gen. Milley called to say China would not be attacked, so this was a real possibility from the White House. Otherwise, he never would have made that call. IIRC, in the other thread, Biden must be removed and have decisions made for him because he is incompetent and does not have a full understanding of what is going on. Same here with JCoS and DoD.

Milley called his counterpart in China. The person who holds an equivalent position there. Not Xi. The reason for the call? To reassure China that dear leader would not start a war with China. So, yeah, I guess remove and charge him with that?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:26 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

As mentioned in the previous thread, none of the above is what occurred. And even if there was a standing mental health concern, 25th Amendment Sec 4 was never a realistic option because some members of the Cabinet would likely never concur - especially the SecState and possibly VP, who is the lynchpin in that statute. The Constitution and existing federal code offer no cover for that scenario.

The reason I say 'going over' the system didn't occur is because the foreign policy matrix in the USG is complex and opaque in some places. POTUS obviously has total authority over executive decisions, but not every little facet of foreign policy operation. Many details are delegated to SecDef and NSC under the POTUS's overall foreign policy goals and priorities. If the SecDef, CIA Director, NSC members and CJCS were in agreement about communicating with PRC regarding a particular concern analysis indicated they had, that's arguably within their purview. Military to military official level contacts are a regular part of foreign policy operations too.


Agreed. Just because Trump didn't know the details does not make it "treason." A top official like Milley has some authorities to do the job they are hired to do. Maybe if Trump gave a lawful order and Milley did the exact opposite, then that would be at least insubordination. If his purpose was to aid the enemy in a battle versus the US, then that gets to be treason.


Milley had ZERO authority to do this or anything else. He was simply an ADVIOSR and law prohibits the JCS from being in an military operational command.


Might want to check with the Nat’l Review on that before going ALL CAPS ;)

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/i ... story/amp/
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:29 pm

seb146 wrote:
extender wrote:
The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff has certainly created a stir over the last two months. But this weeks bombshell is the icing on the cake for which he should face disciplinary action. He also shares responsibility for the botched exit from Afghanistan whereby the Taliban was left with lots of weapons, equipment, ammunition etc. That he circumvented the chain of command is unprecedented. It doesn't matter if it was to Trump, Biden or Obama; it is flat out wrong. My other question, why did Milley also give this information to Bob Woodward? The military command should have zero political bias.

Top general Milley reassured China, others in secret calls as Trump pushed election lies, spokesman says

Alexander Vindman Says Gen. Milley ‘Must Resign’ If Report of His Calls to China Is True: ‘He Usurped Civilian Authority’

General Milley Should Be Fired for Holding Secret, Personal Talks with China


Gen. Milley called to say China would not be attacked, so this was a real possibility from the White House.


That’s not exactly what the available reports suggest. CIA and SecDef thought PRC might be getting jumpy and wanted to reasure them of our status. Nothing more than that.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:30 pm

Why should Milley be forced to step down for keeping the peace?

He did his job. He told his counterparts that the military exercises in the South China sea were about training/Show of force, but no attack was imminent. That was in response to reports that the Chinese were gearing up for an Attack.

You have to remember, to keep selling his Big Lie, Trump was also lying about the Covid Flu, and blaming China.

China had plenty of reasons to be suspicious of Trump. It was Milley's job and responsibility to keep the peace.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:34 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:

Agreed. Just because Trump didn't know the details does not make it "treason." A top official like Milley has some authorities to do the job they are hired to do. Maybe if Trump gave a lawful order and Milley did the exact opposite, then that would be at least insubordination. If his purpose was to aid the enemy in a battle versus the US, then that gets to be treason.


Milley had ZERO authority to do this or anything else. He was simply an ADVIOSR and law prohibits the JCS from being in an military operational command.


Might want to check with the Nat’l Review on that before going ALL CAPS ;)

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/i ... story/amp/


What about him going to the actual military COC and telling them to make sure he was in the loop? The National Review article has a lot of conjecture.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:41 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Milley had ZERO authority to do this or anything else. He was simply an ADVIOSR and law prohibits the JCS from being in an military operational command.


Might want to check with the Nat’l Review on that before going ALL CAPS ;)

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/i ... story/amp/


What about him going to the actual military COC and telling them to make sure he was in the loop? The National Review article has a lot of conjecture.


What for? Upthread I already explained the nature of the USG foreign policy matrix and why POTUS does not need to be pre-apprised of all actions. Many of the associated authorities are delegated and fully within the scope of various NSC and DoD positions.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:47 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Everyone agrees on that, but that’s not exactly relevant here in the overall discussion. Nobody was attempting to act as second POTUS.


You are wrong on this one and you know it.


?? If you can show me where anyone here has suggested we have more than one executive I’ll gladly stand corrected.


I never said anybody suggested it here.
I am saying you are wrong in believing that EVERYONE in this country agrees that there is/should be only one president. I mean certain groups do as long as it is theirs.
If it is not aligned with their ideas then it is not their president and many people including governing bodies are happy to point it out to score some extra political points or like history is showing, act behind the back of the current leader.
The previous presidency is a literal goldmine for historians and I have a feeling this one will be as well. The question is will they have the freedom to write things as they happened.

Also are you 100% sure Biden is in full control right now and he is the only one calling the shots? Honest opinion.
Last edited by PixelPilot on Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:07 pm

I suggest that we all take time to read the List of Nuclear Close Calls in Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... lose_calls
Here is one that I hadn't heard about -
After the 1969 EC-121 shootdown incident, F-4 Phantom fighter jets at Kunsan Air Base were ordered to load B61 nuclear bombs and began planning and preparations for a nuclear strike against the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea).[22] After a few hours, the order to stand down was given. The jet never took off. Reportedly, President Richard Nixon was drunk when he gave the order for a nuclear attack against the DPRK.[23] The order to stand down was given on the advice of Secretary of State Henry Kissinger.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:38 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
I suggest that we all take time to read the List of Nuclear Close Calls in Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... lose_calls
Here is one that I hadn't heard about -
After the 1969 EC-121 shootdown incident, F-4 Phantom fighter jets at Kunsan Air Base were ordered to load B61 nuclear bombs and began planning and preparations for a nuclear strike against the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea).[22] After a few hours, the order to stand down was given. The jet never took off. Reportedly, President Richard Nixon was drunk when he gave the order for a nuclear attack against the DPRK.[23] The order to stand down was given on the advice of Secretary of State Henry Kissinger.


The order to stand down was given because there is a COC that type of order has to go through and be vetted. POTUS simply can not push a button and send nukes anywhere he wants. That is the COC that Milley tried to interject himself (arguably illegally) into.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12587
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Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:06 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
There is a constitution, there are elections, its supposed to be a civilian controlled goverment. Even if we hate the guy in command, we can't just go over the system that has kept in check this Republic for a long time. That's the difference between the US and any other nation, it has been the longest running democracy, no one can say they are longer than the US exactly because the Constitution and the democratic system in place.


Sorry to say, but what a typical American thing to say. You can have a debate that your constitution is in direct conflict with a truly democratic system. And some have been calling America an oligarchy instead of a democracy.

And the longest continues running democracy? Interesting, based on what exactly?

We can very easily conclude that the American democratic system, isn't the best political system, not by a long shot. Just look at the way it is manipulated and contributes to dividing a nation, instead of unifying one. Be careful with such claims, especially on an international forum or you get reactions like this.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1423
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Opinion: General Milley Should Face Charges

Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
There is a constitution, there are elections, its supposed to be a civilian controlled goverment. Even if we hate the guy in command, we can't just go over the system that has kept in check this Republic for a long time. That's the difference between the US and any other nation, it has been the longest running democracy, no one can say they are longer than the US exactly because the Constitution and the democratic system in place.


Sorry to say, but what a typical American thing to say. You can have a debate that your constitution is in direct conflict with a truly democratic system. And some have been calling America an oligarchy instead of a democracy.

And the longest continues running democracy? Interesting, based on what exactly?

We can very easily conclude that the American democratic system, isn't the best political system, not by a long shot. Just look at the way it is manipulated and contributes to dividing a nation, instead of unifying one. Be careful with such claims, especially on an international forum or you get reactions like this.


There are opinions and then there are facts:

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapped ... mocracies/

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