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par13del
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:03 pm

mdsh00 wrote:
While I can understand France is upset over the diplomacy of this, recalling ambassadors seems like an overreaction. I also find it interesting that all the French rage is directed at Australia and the US, when it was initiated and coordinated by the UK. All the more telling that this reaction is a bit of political theater by Macron since there's an election coming up. I guess it's easier to use the US as a scapegoat rather than go after the UK as well.

https://www.politico.eu/article/why-aus ... -sub-deal/

The UK is already under control, remember Brexit, trade between the UK and the EU along with migrants crossing the channel, there are a number of ways the French have to deal with the UK, either via their membership of the EU which the UK left or as an individual nation, the USA and Australia on the other hand.....
 
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Aesma
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:09 pm

Maybe because the French-Australian subs had plenty of US content so they were involved already ?

Also the UK has no presence in the Pacific (except Pitcairn, 47 inhabitants...).
 
johns624
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:31 pm

Aesma wrote:

Also the UK has no presence in the Pacific (except Pitcairn, 47 inhabitants...).
Too many Europeans just worry about what's happening next door. The growth of China should concern everyone, as it affects everyone. The UK doesn't have any colonies like France does, but they understand the geopolitical significance of China's power grab. Australia and Japan do, too.
 
Kent350787
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:00 am

Dieuwer wrote:
My question is: did the Australians negotiate in bad faith with the French, or did they change their minds only at the last minute?


This all seems so rushed that I expect the contract renogotioation with Naval was probably done in good faith.
 
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sebolino
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:17 am

mdsh00 wrote:
While I can understand France is upset over the diplomacy of this, recalling ambassadors seems like an overreaction. I also find it interesting that all the French rage is directed at Australia and the US, when it was initiated and coordinated by the UK. All the more telling that this reaction is a bit of political theater by Macron since there's an election coming up. I guess it's easier to use the US as a scapegoat rather than go after the UK as well.

https://www.politico.eu/article/why-aus ... -sub-deal/


Actually, I believe it's just the start.
It's clear that the US don't care for Europe anymore since Obama, it's not new, but the brutality of their actions now is puzzling. Trump wouldn't have done worse.
Clearly EU has to build its own defense, and I hope it will make EU countries see it at last.

Unfortunately many of them have already signed for this disastrous F-35 program which ties their hands. One thing is sure: the US are good to defend their interests, but with friends like this, you don't need enemies ...
 
marcelh
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:34 am

sebolino wrote:
mdsh00 wrote:
While I can understand France is upset over the diplomacy of this, recalling ambassadors seems like an overreaction. I also find it interesting that all the French rage is directed at Australia and the US, when it was initiated and coordinated by the UK. All the more telling that this reaction is a bit of political theater by Macron since there's an election coming up. I guess it's easier to use the US as a scapegoat rather than go after the UK as well.

https://www.politico.eu/article/why-aus ... -sub-deal/


Actually, I believe it's just the start.
It's clear that the US don't care for Europe anymore since Obama, it's not new, but the brutality of their actions now is puzzling. Trump wouldn't have done worse.
Clearly EU has to build its own defense, and I hope it will make EU countries see it at last.

The EU is already aware of that when they had to deal with Trump and Biden was the driving force behind Obama’s “pivot to Asia”, so it’s really no surprise. And Biden has also made clear -although the GOP fans won’t admit it- his policy is also “America first”.

Unfortunately many of them have already signed for this disastrous F-35 program which ties their hands. One thing is sure: the US are good to defend their interests, but with friends like this, you don't need enemies ...

The US will need the EU more than the other way around in getting China contained successfully. You won’t contain the Chinese with weapons, but you can economically.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:59 am

I suspect that cancelling a submarine order has all the complications of cancelling an Airbus or a MAX. The one cancelling these very complicated contracts has to, in my words, accrue enough points showing that time, costs, or specs are not meeting the contract. I understand that Australia was, in fact, able to accrue those points.
 
marcelh
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:35 pm

[code][/code]
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I suspect that cancelling a submarine order has all the complications of cancelling an Airbus or a MAX. The one cancelling these very complicated contracts has to, in my words, accrue enough points showing that time, costs, or specs are not meeting the contract. I understand that Australia was, in fact, able to accrue those points.

Having the option is one thing. To take the option and dump it is whole another ballgame. You know with this kind of hypercomplex constructions, something will go wrong and it’s up to the contract partners to solve the problems. Now, it’s just used to dump the contract for the benefit of….. the US?
 
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par13del
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:53 pm

marcelh wrote:
The US will need the EU more than the other way around in getting China contained successfully. You won’t contain the Chinese with weapons, but you can economically.

Easy to say and makes good soundbites, now explain to us what happened when the EU prepared a draft report on the Covid pandemic and China had a problem with it....what did China use to get the report amended, Chinese Marines off the coast of Europe or the threat of trade "issues"?
 
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par13del
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:56 pm

marcelh wrote:
[code][/code]
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I suspect that cancelling a submarine order has all the complications of cancelling an Airbus or a MAX. The one cancelling these very complicated contracts has to, in my words, accrue enough points showing that time, costs, or specs are not meeting the contract. I understand that Australia was, in fact, able to accrue those points.

Having the option is one thing. To take the option and dump it is whole another ballgame. You know with this kind of hypercomplex constructions, something will go wrong and it’s up to the contract partners to solve the problems. Now, it’s just used to dump the contract for the benefit of….. the US?

We know the USA is currently building attack subs and they are in the planning stages for their replacement of the Ohio class, France is building their Suffren class, so how is this a big win for the US, is it more prestige and politics?
https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/eu ... ren-class/
 
pune
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:33 pm

johns624 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Also the UK has no presence in the Pacific (except Pitcairn, 47 inhabitants...).
Too many Europeans just worry about what's happening next door. The growth of China should concern everyone, as it affects everyone. The UK doesn't have any colonies like France does, but they understand the geopolitical significance of China's power grab. Australia and Japan do, too.


The problem is all of them have some sort of trade relations with China, with trade deficits in favor of China. And China has been quite a nimble player to understand WTO policies and use the same laws for its purposes. For a long time, when small and medium countries used to talk about how WHO and WTO rules were not fair, they were not heard, now those same rules are being used by the Chinese in a sort of karmic retribution against all these countries. Sadly, though, many small countries are also under Chinese debt.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:57 pm

johns624 wrote:
Too many Europeans just worry about what's happening next door.


You know this how ?

I don't think anyone in Europe is questioning the concerns that Australia, New Zealand and various Asian countries has in the Asia Pacific region. I would say that Europeans have a far better knowledge of the world around us, than the average American.
 
johns624
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:59 pm

pune wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Also the UK has no presence in the Pacific (except Pitcairn, 47 inhabitants...).
Too many Europeans just worry about what's happening next door. The growth of China should concern everyone, as it affects everyone. The UK doesn't have any colonies like France does, but they understand the geopolitical significance of China's power grab. Australia and Japan do, too.


The problem is all of them have some sort of trade relations with China, with trade deficits in favor of China. And China has been quite a nimble player to understand WTO policies and use the same laws for its purposes. For a long time, when small and medium countries used to talk about how WHO and WTO rules were not fair, they were not heard, now those same rules are being used by the Chinese in a sort of karmic retribution against all these countries. Sadly, though, many small countries are also under Chinese debt.
So they can't speak up when something is wrong? That didn't stop the Aussies, did it?
 
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:10 pm

Mortyman wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Too many Europeans just worry about what's happening next door.


You know this how ?

I don't think anyone in Europe is questioning the concerns that Australia, New Zealand and various Asian countries has in the Asia Pacific region. I would say that Europeans have a far better knowledge of the world around us, than the average American.
How many times have we heard European members here say that they don't need to spend more on defense because they have no threats? That means they are only thinking about their immediate vicinity. Also, what about their reaction when China didn't like their Covid report?
 
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Aesma
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:12 pm

johns624 wrote:
2. Yes, Europe should provide for their own defense. That's what we've been saying for years. Yet, they keep acting like the 2% level is the goal (several years away), when it's really the minimum.


But the US has done everything it could to prevent this from happening. If we are going to spend more on military, then it shall be on our own stuff, not on US stuff.

The US military industrial complex is a huge jobs program, also used to send money to every corner of the country. The US doesn't really want the EU to do the same thing.
 
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:20 pm

Aesma wrote:
johns624 wrote:
2. Yes, Europe should provide for their own defense. That's what we've been saying for years. Yet, they keep acting like the 2% level is the goal (several years away), when it's really the minimum.


But the US has done everything it could to prevent this from happening. If we are going to spend more on military, then it shall be on our own stuff, not on US stuff.
Well, you're French, so I'll comment on what France has done. It's LeClerc tanks are domestic, along with your Rafale fighters and FREMM frigates (which the US is buying). Your rifles are German (H&K) and your transport aircraft are EU. How is the US preventing this from happening? How are we keeping you from increasing your manpower? How are we keeping the Germans from maintaining their equipment? The only two main areas where EU nations "buy American" are in aircraft and naval AA warfare weapons. All your ships, armored vehicles, small arms, etc., are all EU sourced. Nice deflection, though.
 
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:34 pm

Hi all. Please keep posts on topic. Also, when linking to an article, please be sure to only post a fair-use excerpt, as outlined in forum rules. Thanks!
 
GDB
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:49 pm

johns624 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Also the UK has no presence in the Pacific (except Pitcairn, 47 inhabitants...).
Too many Europeans just worry about what's happening next door. The growth of China should concern everyone, as it affects everyone. The UK doesn't have any colonies like France does, but they understand the geopolitical significance of China's power grab. Australia and Japan do, too.


And yet not long ago a French helicopter assault ship pissed off China by exercising rights of navigation, just the other day a German Frigate was refused entry to a Chinese port, presumably for the same reasons and it had been exercising with US and other units in the region.
These deployments are happening more frequently than many in the US seem to think or just bother to find out, preferring it seems to rely on out of date cliches or just as a general policy of sneering.

Oddly enough these deployments increased after the 'pivot to the Pacific' policy started around a decade ago. So European NATO did take notice, why else is a German Frigate (not for the first time) in the region?
What's with the % of spending obsession? It's not like I disagree with it, personally I think the UK should be at 2.5-3% but how much of the US spend is pure unadulterated political pork? Building M1 tanks that the army says they don't need, obsolete missile silos the state housing them wants to keep, airbases surplus but try shutting them?
 
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Mortyman
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:06 pm

johns624 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Too many Europeans just worry about what's happening next door.


You know this how ?

I don't think anyone in Europe is questioning the concerns that Australia, New Zealand and various Asian countries has in the Asia Pacific region. I would say that Europeans have a far better knowledge of the world around us, than the average American.
How many times have we heard European members here say that they don't need to spend more on defense because they have no threats? That means they are only thinking about their immediate vicinity. Also, what about their reaction when China didn't like their Covid report?



Yet Europe has just in the last 20 years been very active in Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Gulf of Aden, Mali and in Iraq. Norway has spent 20 years in Afghanistan and were one of the first to deploy in October 2001 and the last ones to leave with the USA in 2021. Norway was also one of the countries that bombed the most in Libya and did a lot of the bombings that most other countries won'nt do. This is just a few examples.

The difference between France and the rest of Europe is that France don't feel obligated to be the US little bitch. They don't jump, just because the US says so. My respect to France for that.


It remains to be seen what Europe in large does, if the conflict in the Indo Pacific increases to direct confrontation, but I'm sure more European contries will involve themselves , one way or another.
Last edited by Mortyman on Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
johns624
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:13 pm

How many were "token" deployments?
 
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Mortyman
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:22 pm

johns624 wrote:
How many were "token" deployments?



None

There is no such thing as token deployments. War is a serious thing. If so, you can argue that the US deployment in Afghanistan was the biggest token deployment of them all, as the US government seems to never have intended to make any real changes / improvements for the civilian population in Afghanistan, wich is alfa and omega in order to have success.at all.
 
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:52 pm

GDB wrote:
And yet not long ago a French helicopter assault ship pissed off China by exercising rights of navigation, just the other day a German Frigate was refused entry to a Chinese port, presumably for the same reasons and it had been exercising with US and other units in the region.
These deployments are happening more frequently than many in the US seem to think or just bother to find out, preferring it seems to rely on out of date cliches or just as a general policy of sneering.

Oddly enough these deployments increased after the 'pivot to the Pacific' policy started around a decade ago. So European NATO did take notice, why else is a German Frigate (not for the first time) in the region?
What's with the % of spending obsession? It's not like I disagree with it, personally I think the UK should be at 2.5-3% but how much of the US spend is pure unadulterated political pork? Building M1 tanks that the army says they don't need, obsolete missile silos the state housing them wants to keep, airbases surplus but try shutting them?


As stated before please provide links to your sources when stating facts.

South China Sea: why France is flexing its muscles in the contested waters

China denies German warship entry into harbour, Berlin says
 
GDB
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:03 pm

johns624 wrote:
How many were "token" deployments?


And my point about the sneering proved.
The European NATO personnel who were killed and injured in the deployments mentioned deserve the same respect as the US ones, not that we are unfamiliar with this attitude.
 
GDB
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:32 pm

Mortyman wrote:
johns624 wrote:
How many were "token" deployments?



None

There is no such thing as token deployments. War is a serious thing. If so, you can argue that the US deployment in Afghanistan was the biggest token deployment of them all, as the US government seems to never have intended to make any real changes / improvements for the civilian population in Afghanistan, wich is alfa and omega in order to have success.at all.


Quite so, repeat and rinse, from Vietnam onwards, (when we were called all the names under the sun for not letting as such as a company of our men be put under the command of that idiot Westmoreland). Shame PM Blair forgot the lesson of his Labour PM predecessor Wilson, on Iraq at least. But that’s a another story.

Going back to subs, for all of the hysterical reactions from France, these proposed boats were a version of the nuclear powered Suffren Class, which, not uncommonly to be fair, has had it’s share of delays and issues, in the nuclear version it was designed to be. So what was this unique and unprecedented version going to be like?
There is an ex USN Submariner on You Tube, does detailed histories of sub classes, very detailed about the Soviet/Russian ones and others. Not long ago he did a piece on the now cancelled Attack Class for the RAN. It was astonishing even by defense industry and political matters.

Now re posted and upgraded, long and detailed but it's a complicated story;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_Y4QQ8Hm3k
 
johns624
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:47 pm

GDB wrote:
johns624 wrote:
How many were "token" deployments?


And my point about the sneering proved.
The European NATO personnel who were killed and injured in the deployments mentioned deserve the same respect as the US ones, not that we are unfamiliar with this attitude.
Not "sneering" at all. In fact, it was inspired by something a British general wrote. I can't find the book title or his name now, because I read it several years ago, then passed it on. I don't even remember if it was about the Serbian/Balkan peacekeeping or Afghanistan. What I do remember is that he was upset by countries that did "I was there" deployments. What he meant was that many countries sent, at most a battalion, and often less. That way, they could say that they were there. Unfortunately, once they had their base which had to be defended by a company, patrolling in the immediate vicinity, which took a company and then misc. tasks and the unit not being up to full manpower, they didn't have anyone who could go out in the countryside and enlarge their footprint. So, they were there, but they didn't really help with the situation, since they didn't bring much, if any logistic support, they were a draw on the countries that did.
 
chimborazo
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:54 pm

johns624 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Also the UK has no presence in the Pacific (except Pitcairn, 47 inhabitants...).
Too many Europeans just worry about what's happening next door. The growth of China should concern everyone, as it affects everyone. The UK doesn't have any colonies like France does, but they understand the geopolitical significance of China's power grab. Australia and Japan do, too.


Australia is part of the Commonwealth

We understand it.
Last edited by chimborazo on Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
chimborazo
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:57 pm

Super Étendards et Exocet
 
johns624
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:59 pm

chimborazo wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Also the UK has no presence in the Pacific (except Pitcairn, 47 inhabitants...).
Too many Europeans just worry about what's happening next door. The growth of China should concern everyone, as it affects everyone. The UK doesn't have any colonies like France does, but they understand the geopolitical significance of China's power grab. Australia and Japan do, too.


Australia is part of the Commonwealth
So? The Commonwealth is just a mostly informal group of former British colonies. While they acknowledge the queen as their honorary head, the UK has no control over them.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:06 pm

Please post respectfully.
Discuss the topic.
Make it clear when it is your opinion.
Post links on facts.
Avoid cussing.
In other words, post respectfully and follow the forum rules. This thread has come to the general attention of the moderators.
 
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BaconButty
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:17 pm

“Some Australians wanted to ring up one week and say we’re so sorry, we’re putting out the diesel submarine contract, and ring up the next week and say we just want you to know that we found a better submarine and it’s British,” the defence source said.


From the Guardian article linked above. If correct, does that imply Astute Class subs? Might be someone on here with an informed opinion on that ....

The drum beat on that program is largely budget driven I imagine, but looking at the shortest time for long lead items ordered to being laid down, launched and commissioned, the best that can be hoped for seems10 years. A change of CMS and longer again. And they're discussing things for 18 months. 2035 IOC? Maybe an interim solution? Trafalgar or Los Angeles class?
 
Kent350787
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:11 am

BaconButty wrote:
“Some Australians wanted to ring up one week and say we’re so sorry, we’re putting out the diesel submarine contract, and ring up the next week and say we just want you to know that we found a better submarine and it’s British,” the defence source said.


From the Guardian article linked above. If correct, does that imply Astute Class subs? Might be someone on here with an informed opinion on that ....

The drum beat on that program is largely budget driven I imagine, but looking at the shortest time for long lead items ordered to being laid down, launched and commissioned, the best that can be hoped for seems10 years. A change of CMS and longer again. And they're discussing things for 18 months. 2035 IOC? Maybe an interim solution? Trafalgar or Los Angeles class?


The reporting in Australia seems to be that no decision has been made, although the logic is between Virginia and Astute. I can't say that I'm a big fan of what is being assumed as at least a AUD$10 billion increase in acquisition cost over the alreayd crazy expensive Naval subs.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:24 am

Kent350787 wrote:
BaconButty wrote:
“Some Australians wanted to ring up one week and say we’re so sorry, we’re putting out the diesel submarine contract, and ring up the next week and say we just want you to know that we found a better submarine and it’s British,” the defence source said.


From the Guardian article linked above. If correct, does that imply Astute Class subs? Might be someone on here with an informed opinion on that ....

The drum beat on that program is largely budget driven I imagine, but looking at the shortest time for long lead items ordered to being laid down, launched and commissioned, the best that can be hoped for seems10 years. A change of CMS and longer again. And they're discussing things for 18 months. 2035 IOC? Maybe an interim solution? Trafalgar or Los Angeles class?


The reporting in Australia seems to be that no decision has been made, although the logic is between Virginia and Astute. I can't say that I'm a big fan of what is being assumed as at least a AUD$10 billion increase in acquisition cost over the alreayd crazy expensive Naval subs.

However, it is a significant jump in capabilities between Attack, and any Australian Virginia or Astute class submarine. Range, endurance, capabilities, etc.
 
Kent350787
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:40 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
BaconButty wrote:

From the Guardian article linked above. If correct, does that imply Astute Class subs? Might be someone on here with an informed opinion on that ....

The drum beat on that program is largely budget driven I imagine, but looking at the shortest time for long lead items ordered to being laid down, launched and commissioned, the best that can be hoped for seems10 years. A change of CMS and longer again. And they're discussing things for 18 months. 2035 IOC? Maybe an interim solution? Trafalgar or Los Angeles class?


The reporting in Australia seems to be that no decision has been made, although the logic is between Virginia and Astute. I can't say that I'm a big fan of what is being assumed as at least a AUD$10 billion increase in acquisition cost over the alreayd crazy expensive Naval subs.

However, it is a significant jump in capabilities between Attack, and any Australian Virginia or Astute class submarine. Range, endurance, capabilities, etc.


No question on capabilities, and that was the focus of last week's announcement to the Australian public. But outside of the defence sphere, I'm sure nearly everyone could think of far more beneficial uses of that $10 billion. For comparison, a significant chunk of Sydney's pretty extensive tollway network sold today for $11 billion and it's a considered as a major windfall for government finances.
 
marcelh
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:00 am

par13del wrote:
marcelh wrote:
[code][/code]
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I suspect that cancelling a submarine order has all the complications of cancelling an Airbus or a MAX. The one cancelling these very complicated contracts has to, in my words, accrue enough points showing that time, costs, or specs are not meeting the contract. I understand that Australia was, in fact, able to accrue those points.

Having the option is one thing. To take the option and dump it is whole another ballgame. You know with this kind of hypercomplex constructions, something will go wrong and it’s up to the contract partners to solve the problems. Now, it’s just used to dump the contract for the benefit of….. the US?

We know the USA is currently building attack subs and they are in the planning stages for their replacement of the Ohio class, France is building their Suffren class, so how is this a big win for the US, is it more prestige and politics?
https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/eu ... ren-class/


It is influence and pissig Europe/France off. The big bully is rolling his muscles. Realpolitik 101
 
cpd
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:33 am

Aesma wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
This could have been handled much better by the US and especially Australia. France has every right to be angry. France also is a major player in the Indo Pacific area and it would be wise of the US and Australia to have good relations with France . This was not helpful.


I think from France's POV this is the main point. Even the US admits that when they say they told France in advance, they mean they called the Elysée palace a couple hours before the announcement !

If Australia changed its geopolitical stance and instead of going with relatively neutral France wants to escalate things with an alliance with the US, then everyone will admit that changing the order makes sense (although we really don't know yet what is ordered exactly, and how much will it cost). However this should have been said months ago by both countries to France, an ally of them, and the only other Western country with a decent military that has actually territory and citizens in the region.

Philosophically, France supports Taiwan's independence of course, but if a war happened now, would we even want to participate with such allies ?

China has announced that Australian territory is now fair game for nuclear strikes, I wonder how Australian people will take this.


Let China nuke us then. If it did, it will also be wiped out completely too. The entire China would be a radioactive wasteland and all the cities flattened.

Bring it on.

As for the submarines, the US option seems better, we should have gone that way to start with. But the whole program must be moved much faster.
 
GDB
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:17 am

chimborazo wrote:
Super Étendards et Exocet


Huh? You mean the ones Argentina had? That further deliveries of were embargoed by France without the UK having to ask immediately after the invasion. French technicians there were sent home. French AF Mirage III aircraft also provided the Sea Harriers with air combat training against the aircraft type when the Task Force sailed through the Bay of Biscay.

To the subject, some questions;
With what seems to be a change in Australian defence thinking, considering a SSN now more suitable, because of the rapid Chinese military build up and their behavior in the region, given they had made the, to most observers, strange choice for a SSN design converted to a large SSK, the obvious question is why was their first option not to see if since they chosen a design with it's basis as a SSN?

Did they do this and find the costs NAVAL quoted even more astronomical than the current option?

Or was it made clear much earlier in the program that NAVAL, for legal or their own national security laws, could not build a SSN for an export customer, even a Western ally?

Maybe the RAN asked much more recently and got the same answer?

Could NAVAL do it but were told not to by the French government? Not for legal but for 'don't piss China off too much' reasons? (Though France has been maintaining rights of navigation through the areas of the South China Sea, as stated, which massively upsets them).

If any of the above is true then all of the diplomatic reaction from the French government is really silly, given the change in direction from the customer, there was only one (or two) other places they could go.
 
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Aesma
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:44 am

I think going nuclear is not just a technical change, so it's possible that France wouldn't provide the capability in one context, but would in another. For example if that was the tender, and the US and UK were also offering it, or were OK with it. From my understanding the US and UK had never considered selling such tech before. And since the idea would be to use "lifetime" reactors, that means using highly enriched uranium, which is a layer above in terms of sensitivity.

I read "no question on capabilities" but I beg to differ, the Attack class had all the bells and whistles (many of which were US systems and weapons), aside from unlimited underwater range, obviously. That's why they were so expensive and the price kept soaring, the Australians asked for more and more capabilities.

I also read an argument that they would be more silent than nuclear subs, as you can shut down the propulsion system entirely, which you can't do with a nuclear reactor.
 
GDB
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:32 am

It's true that a modern SSK with propulsion shut down is very quiet, that's it's advantage, however modern nuclear boats are also very quiet and their advantages are the ones that Australia now thinks it needs, range, endurance (the latter only limited by the crew and their provisions), more power for more capable systems and pure if need be speed.

A modern SSN is the most potent deterrent to a hostile Navy, next year it is 40 years since a single action by one RN SSN put the enemy navy out of the war, in regional terms they were at the time the most powerful in the region and were regarded as a competent force.

The RAN are also fitting Tomahawks to their Hobart Class Destroyers, these new subs will follow.
Again, a SSK can do this but a SSN is the better platform for it.
The Astute class being the first post Cold War SSN's for the RN, magazine capacity was a major design driver, the RN had been using Tomahawks in operations since 1999 squeezing them into the previous generation SSN's.
 
johns624
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:38 pm

My post got deleted so it doesn't make any difference, but I found the British general who alluded to token deployments--General Sir Mike Jackson.
 
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par13del
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:47 pm

Aesma wrote:
I also read an argument that they would be more silent than nuclear subs, as you can shut down the propulsion system entirely, which you can't do with a nuclear reactor.

To add to what GDB already posted, the power of the reactor also allows an increase in size which allows more means to be used to quiet the sub, the most quiet subs in the world are not the attack boats but the larger ballistic boats.
 
GDB
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:55 pm

johns624 wrote:
My post got deleted so it doesn't make any difference, but I found the British general who alluded to token deployments--General Sir Mike Jackson.


Who also refused that clown Wesley Clark's instructions at Pristina airfield in 1999, Madonna's future idea of a Presidential candidate wanted Jackson's Paras to go in and extract, presumably through force if need be, those Russian forces who from the airfield in an unexpected move.
Jackson not wanting to risk an armed confrontation with Russia, when drunk old Yeltsin was in 'in control', Jackson told Clark where to get off, adding with no water supply the Russian's won't be there long, which they weren't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_ ... na_airport

'Token' indeed.
 
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Tugger
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:02 pm

This is a pretty good commentary on the situation there.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commen ... d717e08f9b

Tugg
 
johns624
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:15 pm

Just to be clear, it was Gen Jackson who complained about token deployments not being useful.
 
GDB
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:07 pm

johns624 wrote:
Just to be clear, it was Gen Jackson who complained about token deployments not being useful.


Yes indeed, as the then head of the British Army he was speaking truth to power, he did not want too many deployments spread too thinly, not for instance getting into Afghanistan in areas left for several years for the Taliban to regroup after being chased out in 2001/2, when the Army were still embroiled in Iraq. As well os their other duties and contingencies civil or military.
His successor, now a pliant Tory in the Lords, merely pondered if the Army was ‘running hot’.

It was Jackson’s old Regiment the Paras, who took the brunt of that spread over small bases in Helmand, a friend who did 22 years service ending with 16th Air Assault Brigade, described it as a modern day version of that film ‘Zulu’. Probably a better analogy would be the Irish UN in the Congo Siege of Jadotville, or even more like what turned out to a pivotal moment in a successful counter insurgency effort:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mirbat

Not that there were going to be any ‘pivotal moments’ like that in Afghanistan.
 
Kent350787
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:52 pm

Tugger wrote:
This is a pretty good commentary on the situation there.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commen ... d717e08f9b

Tugg


Is that Greg Sheridan piece (noting that, being in Australia, the Murdoch paywall won't let me see any of it)? If yes, he is an arch-conservative, but a well informed defence commentator.

To an Australian, this is yet another thing that our current Prime Minister has handled very poorly - a term being used in today's media is "boofheaded". The submarine procurement program has already been a laughing stock, and to now destroy diplomatic relations with the French when the current subamarine fleet will rely on French drive components for the next two decades seems stupid, stupid, stupid.

The AUKUS Alliance announcement seem to have been a significiant misstep by Biden, Johnson and "our friend from down under". If only Australians could forget him so readily.
 
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seahawk
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:45 am

par13del wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I also read an argument that they would be more silent than nuclear subs, as you can shut down the propulsion system entirely, which you can't do with a nuclear reactor.

To add to what GDB already posted, the power of the reactor also allows an increase in size which allows more means to be used to quiet the sub, the most quiet subs in the world are not the attack boats but the larger ballistic boats.


Actually the AIP SSKs are probably the quietest subs.
 
Toenga
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:21 am

We are currently observing more and more airborne military tasks being allocated to relatively inexpensive drones that remove their valuable operators from the risk of being killed on service.
Is not a parallel situation not going to happen in submarine warfare in the next 20 years rendering those submarines to the same fate that befell battleships and cruisers before them?
 
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Aesma
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:02 am

Kent350787 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
This is a pretty good commentary on the situation there.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commen ... d717e08f9b

Tugg


Is that Greg Sheridan piece (noting that, being in Australia, the Murdoch paywall won't let me see any of it)? If yes, he is an arch-conservative, but a well informed defence commentator.

To an Australian, this is yet another thing that our current Prime Minister has handled very poorly - a term being used in today's media is "boofheaded". The submarine procurement program has already been a laughing stock, and to now destroy diplomatic relations with the French when the current subamarine fleet will rely on French drive components for the next two decades seems stupid, stupid, stupid.

The AUKUS Alliance announcement seem to have been a significiant misstep by Biden, Johnson and "our friend from down under". If only Australians could forget him so readily.


I know little about the AUS PM, what I know isn't too good. However at least he has the excuse that France is far away and not an everyday concern for Australia.

BoJo however had to have known this would be messy and did it that way to score internal political points. Meanwhile there are empty shelves in shops, shortages of all kinds, soon of gas and electricity, and everything is the EU and the French's fault...
 
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Aesma
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:03 am

Toenga wrote:
We are currently observing more and more airborne military tasks being allocated to relatively inexpensive drones that remove their valuable operators from the risk of being killed on service.
Is not a parallel situation not going to happen in submarine warfare in the next 20 years rendering those submarines to the same fate that befell battleships and cruisers before them?


Underwater communications are very tricky, though, the best way to use remotely operated subs might be to control them from a mother sub.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:27 am

ThePointblank wrote:
marcelh wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
The French should have seen this coming; there were signals from Australia indicating that they wanted out of the deal since at least June:

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaki ... 0c3d6291d3



This after in April, the Australian government refused to sign a contract for the next phase of the French submarine project, giving Naval Group until this month to comply with its demands about providing a promise to the delivery schedule and pricing:
https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/ne ... 513-p57rid

With the previously revised schedule for the delivery of the now cancelled Attack class submarines, the earliest delivery date possible was in 2035 or later, with construction extending into the 2050s.

It's clear that the Australians are moving towards their contingency plan towards a US/UK nuclear design because they've reached their limits to the lack of progress with the French.


IMHO the Australians were just creating an excuse to dump their contract, knowing a deal with US/UK was just around the corner. This kind of deals aren’t made overnight and you have to find some legal loopholes to get out of it.
The way it took the French by surprise and their action shows this wasn’t a contract on the verge of cancellation.

The French knew that the Australians were concerned and upset with the French over the lack of progress with the contract, technical problems, and the budget blowout since January 2020:

https://www.defensenews.com/2020/01/17/ ... val-group/

They should have been paying attention to political news in Australia for over a year; the messaging was becoming increasingly clear that the Australians were becoming frustrated for a while and were looking for a way out.


France can't say they were not warned:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-02/ ... /100184644

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