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Mortyman
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:30 am

Aesma wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
This is a pretty good commentary on the situation there.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commen ... d717e08f9b

Tugg


Is that Greg Sheridan piece (noting that, being in Australia, the Murdoch paywall won't let me see any of it)? If yes, he is an arch-conservative, but a well informed defence commentator.

To an Australian, this is yet another thing that our current Prime Minister has handled very poorly - a term being used in today's media is "boofheaded". The submarine procurement program has already been a laughing stock, and to now destroy diplomatic relations with the French when the current subamarine fleet will rely on French drive components for the next two decades seems stupid, stupid, stupid.

The AUKUS Alliance announcement seem to have been a significiant misstep by Biden, Johnson and "our friend from down under". If only Australians could forget him so readily.


I know little about the AUS PM, what I know isn't too good. However at least he has the excuse that France is far away and not an everyday concern for Australia.

BoJo however had to have known this would be messy and did it that way to score internal political points. Meanwhile there are empty shelves in shops, shortages of all kinds, soon of gas and electricity, and everything is the EU and the French's fault...



Mother France might be far away, but they have a large and constant navy presence in the Indo Pacific and has had so for many decades. As mentioned before, it would be unwise not to have a good relation to France.
 
GDB
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:31 am

Toenga wrote:
We are currently observing more and more airborne military tasks being allocated to relatively inexpensive drones that remove their valuable operators from the risk of being killed on service.
Is not a parallel situation not going to happen in submarine warfare in the next 20 years rendering those submarines to the same fate that befell battleships and cruisers before them?


CND here have tried that argument, ‘Trident won’t be a viable deterrent because of undersea drones.....or something’
(Not mocking you, it’s just their obsessively clutching at straws, a fair question generally though).

These systems are here and being developed further, obvious applications including mine countermeasures (the RN and they are not alone, are to replace their Minesweeper fleet with unmanned systems).
But the very same nations are also developing potential undersea drones and they are not stopping developing and building submarines.

Battleships were replaced as surface capital ships by aircraft carriers because they had greater range than any gun, could provide AA defense way beyond even the huge array of AA guns and radar direction that in particular USN Battleships had in the Pacific, in fact they were still important for carrier groups and supporting the landings by providing that support and shore bombardment, as the threat they were built to counter, enemy major surface units, disappeared through being sunk largely by aircraft and submarines. That was unlikely to be repeated at least in a big fleet on fleet action they were designed for.

In the wake of the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, many announced that the tank was now facing becoming obsolete due to a simple, relatively cheap man portable guided anti tank missile, the Soviet supplied AT-3 ‘Sagger’ which took a heavy toll of Israeli tanks.
But tanks have not gone the way of Battleships in the nearly 50 years since, even as much more effective anti armor systems replaced the Sagger which even then, was not state of the art.
Due to various countermeasures, the ‘Chobham Armour’ developed in the UK and passed to the US and West Germany, (maybe France too had they not hissy fitted out of NATO) being an obvious example, along with reactive Armour and other examples. The latter being better still at countering missiles.

Numerous other examples, radar did not stop air raids, surface to air missiles from the late 1950’s did not make aircraft useless. Not that this stopped the British Defence secretary Duncan Sands in his infamous 1957 White Paper which declared that manned combat aircraft would all soon be obsolete, dealing a blow to the UK industry far greater than the 1960’s cut backs that still obsess some in aviation. Sands in WW2 had been involved in the the defence against the V1 and then feeling the lack of any, save for bombing and then overrunning launch sites, for the V2.
He took an early emerging technology to it’s absolute conclusion while ignoring what everybody else was still doing, plus of course he had a mandate to slash spending which at the time was unsustainable.

The early tanks did not turn the tide of WW1 quickly or on their own.

Then there is the context of how and where they were used, those Saggers had the advantage of few obstacles between the missile operator, great visibility, the sighting and wire guided missile and sighting flare, this would not be the case in the terrain and conditions in NW Europe, as in NATO vs the Warsaw Pact.

So there have been plenty of new tech that has threatened to make others out of date, some have but those are more fundamental than an improvement on existing technology which undersea drones are.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:45 pm

Just a note: Aerial fights are conducted by long range missiles, no dog fights. There have been no 'classic' carrier battles since a few months before the end of WWII. While the US has dumped more bomb tonnage that WWII, it has lost every war to the bombees. Nuclear weapons, missiles, drones, and AI have actually changed things. To an alarming extent generals still prepare for the last war, congress provides the $$$ so long as the money is spent making things their constituents build. Fortunately other countries do worse. But China may be a more effective war wager than others.
 
johns624
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:45 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Just a note: Aerial fights are conducted by long range missiles, no dog fights.
Not really. There's a reason that fighters still have cannon. Sometimes, things get close and messy. Also, the short range Sidewinder is the most effective missile. Sometimes ROE require visual identification. also.
 
johns624
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:53 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Mother France might be far away, but they have a large and constant navy presence in the Indo Pacific and has had so for many decades. As mentioned before, it would be unwise not to have a good relation to France.
While they have a constant presence, I wouldn't classify it as "large".
 
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Mortyman
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:37 pm

johns624 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Mother France might be far away, but they have a large and constant navy presence in the Indo Pacific and has had so for many decades. As mentioned before, it would be unwise not to have a good relation to France.
While they have a constant presence, I wouldn't classify it as "large".



They have about 8000 military forces based in the Asia Pacific, not counting visiting forces
 
Toenga
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:10 pm

I think the west is actually being very succesfully played by China.
By far the bulk of China's increasing power comes from conventional means. Investment in key industries, and infrastructure in the West, such as the farms, mines, tourist accomodation and ports in Australia, and elsewhere in the world. And investments in sovereign bonds, which could cause grief, if not rolled over when they fall due. Fees from Chinese students to Western educational institutes, also provides leverage.
Western dependence on Chinese suppliers and sales of raw materials arguably provides ship loads more influence then any military ship, even if these are nuclear powered submarines.
Australia spending trillions on defence hardware just removes capital from being able to counter these strategies.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:18 pm

Toenga wrote:
I think the west is actually being very succesfully played by China.
By far the bulk of China's increasing power comes from conventional means. Investment in key industries, and infrastructure in the West, such as the farms, mines, tourist accomodation and ports in Australia, and elsewhere in the world. And investments in sovereign bonds, which could cause grief, if not rolled over when they fall due. Fees from Chinese students to Western educational institutes, also provides leverage.
Western dependence on Chinese suppliers and sales of raw materials arguably provides ship loads more influence then any military ship, even if these are nuclear powered submarines.
Australia spending trillions on defence hardware just removes capital from being able to counter these strategies.


China will win without a single (conventional weapon) shot fired.
 
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Tugger
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:37 pm

I seriously doubt China will "win" anything with how they are being.
They have nothing on their own soil that cannot be done, built, developed or found elsewhere in the world.
They demand "only Chinese" for any solution or leadership role.
They actively oppress their own people.
They have a grossly swelling aging population and have not been able to "inspire" their people to have more kids. If anything people are having fewer.
Their "investments" in industry often also mean theft of intellectual properties within those industries.
They break many treaties they supposedly commit to.
If they move militarily against anyone, they jeopardize their entire economy.
The things they own in other nations are only useful if they are on good terms with those nations. They cannot "take back" any ports or building or land they own.
Their man-made islands in the South China, while impressive are utterly vulnerable in any conflict should they ever choose to enforce their imaginary lines.
They do have a growing military capability but again can only use it at the risk of their economy and nation.

And I am not discounting that they are an amazing nation filled with amazing and intelligent people that are capable of most anything.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Kent350787
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:40 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:

Is that Greg Sheridan piece (noting that, being in Australia, the Murdoch paywall won't let me see any of it)? If yes, he is an arch-conservative, but a well informed defence commentator.

To an Australian, this is yet another thing that our current Prime Minister has handled very poorly - a term being used in today's media is "boofheaded". The submarine procurement program has already been a laughing stock, and to now destroy diplomatic relations with the French when the current subamarine fleet will rely on French drive components for the next two decades seems stupid, stupid, stupid.

The AUKUS Alliance announcement seem to have been a significiant misstep by Biden, Johnson and "our friend from down under". If only Australians could forget him so readily.


I know little about the AUS PM, what I know isn't too good. However at least he has the excuse that France is far away and not an everyday concern for Australia.

BoJo however had to have known this would be messy and did it that way to score internal political points. Meanwhile there are empty shelves in shops, shortages of all kinds, soon of gas and electricity, and everything is the EU and the French's fault...


Mother France might be far away, but they have a large and constant navy presence in the Indo Pacific and has had so for many decades. As mentioned before, it would be unwise not to have a good relation to France.


And many older people remember the Rainbow Warrior....
 
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cjg225
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:17 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
China will win without a single (conventional weapon) shot fired.

This.

Asian cultures are very, very good at playing the long game, and the Chinese are amongst the best at it.
 
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Tugger
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:26 pm

cjg225 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
China will win without a single (conventional weapon) shot fired.

This.

Asian cultures are very, very good at playing the long game, and the Chinese are amongst the best at it.

Wait... which "Asian cultures" are you talking about at the moment that have "won"?

Chinese are great, both as a people and at what they are doing. And of course as a nation. But their ultimate undoing is that ONLY a Chinese can "win" for them to win (and internally it seems they mostly demand it be a Han Chinese). And in a world of myriad different people, limiting yourself, your nation to only one type of people, well it instantly handicaps you. They will very likely continue to succeed "as they are" an isolated, insular, controlled nation. But "win" the world? I don't see it. Expand out of their bubble, the landmass they control? Also don't see it.

They only way they will "win" is to interconnect and work with the other nations in the world with some level of respect and equality (not saying as equals). And currently the Chinese are showing themselves to be diverging from that path.

Tugg
 
johns624
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:43 pm

Kent350787 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Aesma wrote:

I know little about the AUS PM, what I know isn't too good. However at least he has the excuse that France is far away and not an everyday concern for Australia.

BoJo however had to have known this would be messy and did it that way to score internal political points. Meanwhile there are empty shelves in shops, shortages of all kinds, soon of gas and electricity, and everything is the EU and the French's fault...


Mother France might be far away, but they have a large and constant navy presence in the Indo Pacific and has had so for many decades. As mentioned before, it would be unwise not to have a good relation to France.


And many older people remember the Rainbow Warrior....
ZING!!! Good one!
 
johns624
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:44 pm

cjg225 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
China will win without a single (conventional weapon) shot fired.

This.

Asian cultures are very, very good at playing the long game, and the Chinese are amongst the best at it.
Yeah, I've been hearing that for years. Then China went and got impatient with getting Hong Kong completely back in the fold. That ruined the whole "woo Taiwan" thing. Maybe the Western impatience has worn off on them.
 
Newark727
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:18 am

cjg225 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
China will win without a single (conventional weapon) shot fired.

This.

Asian cultures are very, very good at playing the long game, and the Chinese are amongst the best at it.


I think observers from the United States and Europe still run the risk of over-exoticizing China. Yeah, they'd like to play the long game, I'm sure, but they're still subject to the same pressures as any other government. People are people wherever you go - "Asian culture" doesn't stop their fishing fleets from badly overfishing the China Sea, the HNA Group from taking on too much debt, or their real estate sector from inflating bubbles and stealing from its own employees. There are hawks and doves within China just as there are hawks and doves within Russia and the U.S., and the bluster to appease them carries the same risks that nationalist bluster does anywhere - namely, that its purveyors start believing their own hype.

Honestly, China's position now kind of reminds me of Germany's position post-1870. A newly consolidated power looks around at its neighbors and sees that it is strong, that it can secure for itself a "place in the sun" - but that strength breeds entitlement and arrogance, followed by paranoia of "encirclement" by the previously existing powers. Bismarck played the long game, but his successors couldn't keep it up, because once you start offering the masses "blood and iron," they tend to want dominance, not an unsteady equilibrium.
 
marcelh
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:13 am

eta unknown wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
marcelh wrote:

IMHO the Australians were just creating an excuse to dump their contract, knowing a deal with US/UK was just around the corner. This kind of deals aren’t made overnight and you have to find some legal loopholes to get out of it.
The way it took the French by surprise and their action shows this wasn’t a contract on the verge of cancellation.

The French knew that the Australians were concerned and upset with the French over the lack of progress with the contract, technical problems, and the budget blowout since January 2020:

https://www.defensenews.com/2020/01/17/ ... val-group/

They should have been paying attention to political news in Australia for over a year; the messaging was becoming increasingly clear that the Australians were becoming frustrated for a while and were looking for a way out.


France can't say they were not warned:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-02/ ... /100184644

Just noise looking for an excuse to dump the contract. An interesting part of your link is saying:

”The department secretary insisted, however, that Defence was determined to proceed with the plan to build 12 conventionally powered Attack-class submarines based on a French design.”
Clearly a warning……

You know this kind of complex contracts will come with issues sooner or later. IMHO the Australians were using these issues to dump the contract, rather than solve it. It’s clear why they did it, because they were already teaming up with the US/UK.
 
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Aesma
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:37 am

Did Trump gut the State Department by any chance ? No decent diplomat left would explain how this played out...

Tugger wrote:
The things they own in other nations are only useful if they are on good terms with those nations. They cannot "take back" any ports or building or land they own.


That's an important point. We shouldn't be selling anything to the Chinese without a hard look at the sensitivity of it, even Germany has learned that after having sold a robotics firm, but on the other hand China buying land and ports only matters in a peaceful world. If a French port was sold to them it might motivate French dockers to work instead of striking !
 
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sebolino
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:14 pm

eta unknown wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
marcelh wrote:

IMHO the Australians were just creating an excuse to dump their contract, knowing a deal with US/UK was just around the corner. This kind of deals aren’t made overnight and you have to find some legal loopholes to get out of it.
The way it took the French by surprise and their action shows this wasn’t a contract on the verge of cancellation.

The French knew that the Australians were concerned and upset with the French over the lack of progress with the contract, technical problems, and the budget blowout since January 2020:

https://www.defensenews.com/2020/01/17/ ... val-group/

They should have been paying attention to political news in Australia for over a year; the messaging was becoming increasingly clear that the Australians were becoming frustrated for a while and were looking for a way out.


France can't say they were not warned:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-02/ ... /100184644


This is ridiculous. Of course they didn't know ! Since when is an article in a newspaper an official communication from a state to another one ?

The same day of the announcement, hundreds of engineers were working on the contract in France and in Australia, were they faking it ?? LOL
You really think that if they knew what was coming, they would have continue working on this ?
Even worse, the same day as the announcement, the Australian government sent a letter to accept continuing with the project and move on to the next phase according to sources in the French government and Naval group (see article).

« Il y a deux semaines, Naval Group avait reçu de l’Australie une confirmation écrite du passage à la phase suivante… » : "2 weeks ago, Naval Group received from Australia a written confirmation of the shift (?) to the subsequent phase"


Of course, you won't find that in your newspapers.

And even if there were concerns, which I'm sure there were, you don't break a deal like this one without talking officially first. It's incredible !

https://www.ouest-france.fr/economie/ec ... ae82f2e246
 
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par13del
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:18 pm

sebolino wrote:
This is ridiculous. Of course they didn't know ! Since when is an article in a newspaper an official communication from a state to another one ?

The same day of the announcement, hundreds of engineers were working on the contract in France and in Australia, were they faking it ?? LOL
You really think that if they knew what was coming, they would have continue working on this ?
Even worse, the same day as the announcement, the Australian government sent a letter to accept continuing with the project and move on to the next phase according to sources in the French government and Naval group (see article).

« Il y a deux semaines, Naval Group avait reçu de l’Australie une confirmation écrite du passage à la phase suivante… » : "2 weeks ago, Naval Group received from Australia a written confirmation of the shift (?) to the subsequent phase"


Of course, you won't find that in your newspapers.

And even if there were concerns, which I'm sure there were, you don't break a deal like this one without talking officially first. It's incredible !

https://www.ouest-france.fr/economie/ec ... ae82f2e246

So if we put this in a mirror, how does it work on the other side, the USA and UK leaders just up and announce the creation of this pact and no one else in either nation knew this was in the works, then the Australian PM just sign on when he was told that a pact was being offered?
 
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par13del
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:24 pm

To add to my last, workers go to work daily while their management are in negotiations to sell the company or put it into receivership / bankruptsy, o the actual workers on the ground are usually the last to find out that their lives are about to change.
 
johns624
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:22 pm

marcelh wrote:
You know this kind of complex contracts will come with issues sooner or later. IMHO the Australians were using these issues to dump the contract, rather than solve it. It’s clear why they did it, because they were already teaming up with the US/UK.
Maybe they considered the problems too hard to solve? As an analogy--you're in a relationship where you like the person a lot, but there are also serious problems. You decide to keep trying because there's nobody else. Then one day, the woman of your dreams comes along and you say, screw it, I'm leaving.
 
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Aesma
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:23 pm

par13del : it seems indeed that very few people knew something, including in the Australian government.
 
marcelh
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:33 pm

johns624 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
You know this kind of complex contracts will come with issues sooner or later. IMHO the Australians were using these issues to dump the contract, rather than solve it. It’s clear why they did it, because they were already teaming up with the US/UK.
Maybe they considered the problems too hard to solve? As an analogy--you're in a relationship where you like the person a lot, but there are also serious problems. You decide to keep trying because there's nobody else. Then one day, the woman of your dreams comes along and you say, screw it, I'm leaving.

If those problems were too hard to solve, the French wouldn’t be surprised the way they were. No, the Aussies were already dating the US/UK and keeping up the appearances with the French at the same time
 
johns624
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:53 pm

Every country does what's in their best interests. What's the old saying? There are no friends, just shared interests. Sorta like when France was going to sell amphibious assault ships to Russia.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:56 pm

It's not like France, has not stabbed anybody in the back is it...

Anybody on here, remember Rainbow Warrior, the Greenpeace ship blown up by French Security services in Auckland Harbour?

or

Selling a despot like Saddam Hussein a nuclear reactor (before it got blown up by the Israelis.)
 
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Tugger
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:12 pm

I tend to find the "international hurt feelings" things to be a bit overblown. Especially now that it is still going on, well here at least. These are international trade deals, they come and go with changing events, interests, administrations, as well as technical, financial, and political issues.

I get it, this was a big deal for the French. But the buyer has the right to change their mind, especially as laid out in the terms of the contract. And to that point, the contract, I have not seen any claims of any violations of that contract. That speaks volumes, to me at least. Is there any news of any massive contractual failure by Australia?

Tugg
 
GDB
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:04 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
It's not like France, has not stabbed anybody in the back is it...

Anybody on here, remember Rainbow Warrior, the Greenpeace ship blown up by French Security services in Auckland Harbour?

or

Selling a despot like Saddam Hussein a nuclear reactor (before it got blown up by the Israelis.)


Yes, the inept attempt to stifle very real anger in their Pacific Departments of the effects of the many nuclear tests. And they got caught. I mean Putin's goons manage to get away before they are identified.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_o ... ow_Warrior

Just imagining the agents posing as interested parties, if you remember this event Dano, you should get this, 'good moaning, we 'ave cerme to lock at the shit that will proteet aboout the bermb'
(For everyone else, it's based on a sitcom that parodied WW2 dramas including a British agent's risible attempts to speak French).

That reactor was the second one, the first being blown up at the factory by Mossad in the 1970's.
 
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Aesma
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:41 pm

johns624 wrote:
Every country does what's in their best interests. What's the old saying? There are no friends, just shared interests. Sorta like when France was going to sell amphibious assault ships to Russia.


So you're saying France should look after the US's interest, for what in return, an occasional trade war ?

Politicians in France who argued that we should have actually delivered the ships instead of cancelling the contract under US pressure are vindicated now.
 
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Tugger
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:49 pm

Aesma wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Every country does what's in their best interests. What's the old saying? There are no friends, just shared interests. Sorta like when France was going to sell amphibious assault ships to Russia.


So you're saying France should look after the US's interest, for what in return, an occasional trade war ?

Politicians in France who argued that we should have actually delivered the ships instead of cancelling the contract under US pressure are vindicated now.

US interests? Wait, you do know that French government decided not to deliver because of Russia’s annexation of Crimea don't you? They invaded another country and annexed the region into Russia.

Are you honestly saying that France should have delivered them after that demonstration of abusive power? To me that is Chamberlain level thinking.

Tugg
 
GDB
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:07 pm

Aesma wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Every country does what's in their best interests. What's the old saying? There are no friends, just shared interests. Sorta like when France was going to sell amphibious assault ships to Russia.


So you're saying France should look after the US's interest, for what in return, an occasional trade war ?

Politicians in France who argued that we should have actually delivered the ships instead of cancelling the contract under US pressure are vindicated now.


So giving Putin even more ability to threaten his neighbors, some of which include nations who thought that France as a Western democracy was an ally, not even in any formal way, was OK as some kind of pointless 'screw you' to the US?

Why on Earth did they ever agree to sell to them? Protect jobs in shipyards? No 'trade war' there since the US wasn't about to sell amphibious assault ships to Russia. If you wanted to protect those jobs, fine, might have been better served building that planned French CATOBAR version of the CVF, be in commission by now, so when CdG is in refit your (excellent) Navy pilots would not have to go to, guess where? The US to maintain carrier experience, they are good enough for that, aren't they?

And the USAF and RAF C-17's are good enough to help support French operations in North Africa, against Islamists, with an added bonus of RAF Chinooks too.
 
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:13 pm

GDB wrote:
Aesma wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Every country does what's in their best interests. What's the old saying? There are no friends, just shared interests. Sorta like when France was going to sell amphibious assault ships to Russia.


So you're saying France should look after the US's interest, for what in return, an occasional trade war ?

Politicians in France who argued that we should have actually delivered the ships instead of cancelling the contract under US pressure are vindicated now.


So giving Putin even more ability to threaten his neighbors, some of which include nations who thought that France as a Western democracy was an ally, not even in any formal way, was OK as some kind of pointless 'screw you' to the US?

Why on Earth did they ever agree to sell to them? Protect jobs in shipyards? No 'trade war' there since the US wasn't about to sell amphibious assault ships to Russia. If you wanted to protect those jobs, fine, might have been better served building that planned French CATOBAR version of the CVF, be in commission by now, so when CdG is in refit your (excellent) Navy pilots would not have to go to, guess where? The US to maintain carrier experience, they are good enough for that, aren't they?

And the USAF and RAF C-17's are good enough to help support French operations in North Africa, against Islamists, with an added bonus of RAF Chinooks too.

And it should be noted that both ships were then later sold to Egypt, so the French did recoup their costs with them.

Tugg
 
johns624
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:18 pm

Tugger wrote:
And it should be noted that both ships were then later sold to Egypt, so the French did recoup their costs with them.

Tugg
I've never been able to figure out what Egypt wanted them for.
 
johns624
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:20 pm

Tugger wrote:
Aesma wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Every country does what's in their best interests. What's the old saying? There are no friends, just shared interests. Sorta like when France was going to sell amphibious assault ships to Russia.


So you're saying France should look after the US's interest, for what in return, an occasional trade war ?

Politicians in France who argued that we should have actually delivered the ships instead of cancelling the contract under US pressure are vindicated now.

US interests? Wait, you do know that French government decided not to deliver because of Russia’s annexation of Crimea don't you? They invaded another country and annexed the region into Russia.

Are you honestly saying that France should have delivered them after that demonstration of abusive power? To me that is Chamberlain level thinking.

Tugg
Somebody seems to be rewriting history to fit the current situation.
 
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sebolino
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:22 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
It's not like France, has not stabbed anybody in the back is it...

Anybody on here, remember Rainbow Warrior, the Greenpeace ship blown up by French Security services in Auckland Harbour?

or

Selling a despot like Saddam Hussein a nuclear reactor (before it got blown up by the Israelis.)


Honestly your examples are totally irrelevant.
You want to talk about the US giving money and weapons to the Talibans to fight against the Russians in Afghanistan, while you're at it ? With the great success we know for the whole world.
 
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Aesma
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:53 pm

johns624 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Aesma wrote:
So you're saying France should look after the US's interest, for what in return, an occasional trade war ?

Politicians in France who argued that we should have actually delivered the ships instead of cancelling the contract under US pressure are vindicated now.

US interests? Wait, you do know that French government decided not to deliver because of Russia’s annexation of Crimea don't you? They invaded another country and annexed the region into Russia.

Are you honestly saying that France should have delivered them after that demonstration of abusive power? To me that is Chamberlain level thinking.

Tugg
Somebody seems to be rewriting history to fit the current situation.


It's not about history. I was not in favor of the deal with Russia to begin with, and think the EU should stop buying their gas (not to buy US gas instead, though), however we had a deal and Russia wasn't threatening our allies. And still isn't. That's the argument many politicians made in France, that we should have our own interests in mind, and not follow the US everywhere (especially after Iraq). These politicians could be in power one day...
 
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Tugger
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:17 pm

Aesma wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
US interests? Wait, you do know that French government decided not to deliver because of Russia’s annexation of Crimea don't you? They invaded another country and annexed the region into Russia.

Are you honestly saying that France should have delivered them after that demonstration of abusive power? To me that is Chamberlain level thinking.

Tugg
Somebody seems to be rewriting history to fit the current situation.


It's not about history. I was not in favor of the deal with Russia to begin with, and think the EU should stop buying their gas (not to buy US gas instead, though), however we had a deal and Russia wasn't threatening our allies. And still isn't. That's the argument many politicians made in France, that we should have our own interests in mind, and not follow the US everywhere (especially after Iraq). These politicians could be in power one day...

Not and "ally"? What does it take to be an ally with France? Does it require a formal agreement of some type? So any nation that is invaded by another, you would take no action, have no issue with the invading nation unless France had some type of formal agreement in place?

We're talking nations invading other sovereign nations here (unless you are one of our Russophile members who think this was a completely independent benign, "should never have been that way in the first place" action). That is a big issue.

I assume France took no action against Saddam and Iraq when he invaded Kuwait? Or was that just another time the US bullied France into doing something unwarranted?

I don't get your line of thinking. I get that we arms merchant nations sell into some unsavory situations. But still some actions call for a response. Don't they?

Tugg
 
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Aesma
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:01 am

Tugger wrote:
Not and "ally"? What does it take to be an ally with France? Does it require a formal agreement of some type? So any nation that is invaded by another, you would take no action, have no issue with the invading nation unless France had some type of formal agreement in place?

We're talking nations invading other sovereign nations here (unless you are one of our Russophile members who think this was a completely independent benign, "should never have been that way in the first place" action). That is a big issue.


It's basically the subject matter, no ? Australia was buying submarines, now it is buying an alliance with the US.

If Ukraine is/was an ally, why aren't we fighting there right now ? By "we" I don't just mean France obviously.

Tugger wrote:
I assume France took no action against Saddam and Iraq when he invaded Kuwait? Or was that just another time the US bullied France into doing something unwarranted?

I don't get your line of thinking. I get that we arms merchant nations sell into some unsavory situations. But still some actions call for a response. Don't they?

Tugg


You mean after the US basically green lighted Saddam's invasion ?

France was actually an Iraqi ally at the time (hence the aforementioned nuclear reactor sale). However France didn't support the invasion and went with the UN Security Council Resolution 678. If you read about it on wikipedia quite a lot of US bullying was involved (not of France) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na ... lution_678

It didn't work the second time and there was no UN support of Gulf War 2 because France would have vetoed any similar resolution.
 
marcelh
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:32 am

Dano1977 wrote:
It's not like France, has not stabbed anybody in the back is it...

Anybody on here, remember Rainbow Warrior, the Greenpeace ship blown up by French Security services in Auckland Harbour?

or

Selling a despot like Saddam Hussein a nuclear reactor (before it got blown up by the Israelis.)

Luckily the UK are much more reasonable and trustworthy….
Deflecting from what happened won’t help you.
 
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Tugger
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:33 am

Aesma wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Not and "ally"? What does it take to be an ally with France? Does it require a formal agreement of some type? So any nation that is invaded by another, you would take no action, have no issue with the invading nation unless France had some type of formal agreement in place?

We're talking nations invading other sovereign nations here (unless you are one of our Russophile members who think this was a completely independent benign, "should never have been that way in the first place" action). That is a big issue.


It's basically the subject matter, no ? Australia was buying submarines, now it is buying an alliance with the US.

If Ukraine is/was an ally, why aren't we fighting there right now ? By "we" I don't just mean France obviously.

Tugger wrote:
I assume France took no action against Saddam and Iraq when he invaded Kuwait? Or was that just another time the US bullied France into doing something unwarranted?

I don't get your line of thinking. I get that we arms merchant nations sell into some unsavory situations. But still some actions call for a response. Don't they?

Tugg


You mean after the US basically green lighted Saddam's invasion ?

France was actually an Iraqi ally at the time (hence the aforementioned nuclear reactor sale). However France didn't support the invasion and went with the UN Security Council Resolution 678. If you read about it on wikipedia quite a lot of US bullying was involved (not of France) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na ... lution_678

It didn't work the second time and there was no UN support of Gulf War 2 because France would have vetoed any similar resolution.

Sooo..... what you're saying is ... It's ALL the USA's fault. Everything.

Well OK then.

Tugg
 
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seahawk
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:42 am

Considering this press release from the 30th August:

https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/mini ... sultations

It seems understandable that the French feel stabbed in the back.
 
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par13del
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:17 am

Bottom line is as long as the US and UK along with AUS make France whole financially, all will be well. On the US side it can simply be no charge for any military support in operations around the world, that should be easy to hide and justify from prying eyes. Example current French navy pilots training on US carriers while their carrier is in the shop, I would be shocked if some sort of fee structure had not been arranged prior to ensure pilot proficiency.
As for the trust issue, France always wanted its independence and has done so, so how much was really lost?

The UK still has Brexit and this deal will ensure that trade with the EU will at best not get any easier, money to the EU won't make much difference on that situation as it is more principled than financial.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58659627
 
Arion640
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:54 am

Diesel subs are from the 20th century.

It makes sense for Australia to choose its closest allies to deliver this project.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:45 pm

marcelh wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
It's not like France, has not stabbed anybody in the back is it...

Anybody on here, remember Rainbow Warrior, the Greenpeace ship blown up by French Security services in Auckland Harbour?

or

Selling a despot like Saddam Hussein a nuclear reactor (before it got blown up by the Israelis.)

Luckily the UK are much more reasonable and trustworthy….
Deflecting from what happened won’t help you.


IF you mean by security agents blowing up a Greenpeace boat in an allies backyard, no the UK hasn't done that.

We can carry on with France...

How about De Gaulle promising the UK membership of then EU in 1966 for help in getting Polaris/Nuclear tech from the USA... Only for De Gaulle to STAB the UK in the back and not recommending membership, one France had access to that information.

Or how about in 1959 when it pulled out of NATO, yet another knife in the back.

Seems France and it's citizens get hurt that there Hollier than thou country gets put under the spotlight.
 
marcelh
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:22 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
It's not like France, has not stabbed anybody in the back is it...

Anybody on here, remember Rainbow Warrior, the Greenpeace ship blown up by French Security services in Auckland Harbour?

or

Selling a despot like Saddam Hussein a nuclear reactor (before it got blown up by the Israelis.)

Luckily the UK are much more reasonable and trustworthy….
Deflecting from what happened won’t help you.


IF you mean by security agents blowing up a Greenpeace boat in an allies backyard, no the UK hasn't done that.

We can carry on with France...

How about De Gaulle promising the UK membership of then EU in 1966 for help in getting Polaris/Nuclear tech from the USA... Only for De Gaulle to STAB the UK in the back and not recommending membership, one France had access to that information.

Or how about in 1959 when it pulled out of NATO, yet another knife in the back.

Seems France and it's citizens get hurt that there Hollier than thou country gets put under the spotlight.

You probably blame the Germans for bombing London during WW2……
Fact is Australia scr.wed the French big time and the UK was more than willing to cooperate; a good neighbor is worth more than a distant friend….
 
marcelh
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:23 pm

scbriml wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Luckily the UK are much more reasonable and trustworthy….
Deflecting from what happened won’t help you.


IF you mean by security agents blowing up a Greenpeace boat in an allies backyard, no the UK hasn't done that.

We can carry on with France...

How about De Gaulle promising the UK membership of then EU in 1966 for help in getting Polaris/Nuclear tech from the USA... Only for De Gaulle to STAB the UK in the back and not recommending membership, one France had access to that information.

Or how about in 1959 when it pulled out of NATO, yet another knife in the back.

Seems France and it's citizens get hurt that there Hollier than thou country gets put under the spotlight.



Sacré bleu, rosbif.
Image
Source: https://www.beachamjournal.com/.a/6a010 ... 200c-800wi

You can do much better….
 
AeroVega
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:05 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Shock horror I actually agree with you. Some of them like the Dutch were utterly useless and allowed a massacre to take place on their watch, if those men hadn't been the cowards they were they should have fought to the last man to protect those civilians. .... 370 well trained members of the Netherlands finest light infantry brigade v 1500 poorly trained Bosnian Serb peasants????


Would you mind sticking to the facts next time? Dutchbat had 150 lightly armed fighting men and were up against 2000 Serbs supported by artillery. You can read it all here: https://undocs.org/A/54/549

Kiwirob wrote:
I'd very much doubt a British or US battalion would have walked away without putting up a vigorous defense first


I very much doubt that a British or US battalion would have gotten their requests for air support denied by a UN superior. And even with massive air support, the mightiest military in the world was unable to defeat an unruly mob of Afghan peasants and walked away.
 
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GrahamHill
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:09 pm

johns624 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Mother France might be far away, but they have a large and constant navy presence in the Indo Pacific and has had so for many decades. As mentioned before, it would be unwise not to have a good relation to France.
While they have a constant presence, I wouldn't classify it as "large".


It's still larger than the British forces in the region, which amount to 0.
 
GDB
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:12 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Diesel subs are from the 20th century.

It makes sense for Australia to choose its closest allies to deliver this project.


No they are not, modern designs are highly capable and in some cases, more suitable than nuclear powered boats in some operations.
But a mix of changing strategic requirements, plus increasing unhappiness with the 2016 deal, has changed the situation for the Aussies. It was always odd, take a nuclear powered boat and convert it to conventional, on that I can see how retrograde, old fashioned even it seems.
The size and cost of a nuclear boat, with none of the advantages.
 
Arion640
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:13 pm

marcelh wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Luckily the UK are much more reasonable and trustworthy….
Deflecting from what happened won’t help you.


IF you mean by security agents blowing up a Greenpeace boat in an allies backyard, no the UK hasn't done that.

We can carry on with France...

How about De Gaulle promising the UK membership of then EU in 1966 for help in getting Polaris/Nuclear tech from the USA... Only for De Gaulle to STAB the UK in the back and not recommending membership, one France had access to that information.

Or how about in 1959 when it pulled out of NATO, yet another knife in the back.

Seems France and it's citizens get hurt that there Hollier than thou country gets put under the spotlight.

You probably blame the Germans for bombing London during WW2……
Fact is Australia scr.wed the French big time and the UK was more than willing to cooperate; a good neighbor is worth more than a distant friend….



The better product won at the end of the day, just like when the A350 is pitched against the 787 and the customer comes to a conclusion on which one to purchase.

This was more like the A350 being pitched against an A340 - the newer and more efficient aircraft won.

France have never had an issue in the past screwing someone over to get its own way. Now they are throwing their toys out the pram and no one has actually done anything wrong.

There are no friends in business.
 
Arion640
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:14 pm

GDB wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Diesel subs are from the 20th century.

It makes sense for Australia to choose its closest allies to deliver this project.


No they are not, modern designs are highly capable and in some cases, more suitable than nuclear powered boats in some operations.
But a mix of changing strategic requirements, plus increasing unhappiness with the 2016 deal, has changed the situation for the Aussies. It was always odd, take a nuclear powered boat and convert it to conventional, on that I can see how retrograde, old fashioned even it seems.
The size and cost of a nuclear boat, with none of the advantages.


I will admit you probably know more about the subject than me so I won’t pretend.

But it was clear to me that the better product won.

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