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johns624
Posts: 4289
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:09 pm

Toenga wrote:

WW2 over 70 years ago was a continuation of WW1 fought over 100 years ago.
WW1 was fought by two colonial powers largely over their competing threats to their colonial holdings. The US belatedly, and strategically, joined both wars as an opportunist seeking to enlarge it's worldwide political and economic footprint at a time when the other major parties were debilitated by those wars. Nothing at all about" just wars"
Japan joined in because the US had been aggressively denieing it of access to the required resources for it's economic progression.
The geopolitical landscape present in the first half of the last century is of little relevance now except in the minds of too many nostalgic buffs and members of their powerful armaments industries in the US and Britain " Make America/Britain Great Again" camp.
The armaments industry needs international conflict for it's very existence so stirring those nationalistic pots is an extraordinarily important part of their existance, and therefore imbedded in the economic and political cultures of those players.
I think China would far rather just continue to buy up those Australian coal and iron ore mines rather then invade and get caught up in a hostile occupation scenario. Invade NZ? as a stepping stone to Antarctica? Perhaps if global warming makes Antartica habitable and swathes of China uninhabitable.

What 2 colonial powers were those? Germany had very few colonies and the UK and France were on the same side. Japan had turned expansionistic and militarist well before we cut access to raw materials. In fact, that's sorta why we did it. The Chinese don't have to invade NZ, they'll just send their fleets of factory fishing trawlers down there and denude your EEZ and there's not a thing that you can do about it. Your isolationist attitude is losing you allies.
 
A101
Posts: 2576
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:39 pm

Mate is there any chance in the future you could put space between paragraphs, would make it easier to read,

Thank you :D

Toenga wrote:
WW2 over 70 years ago was a continuation of WW1 fought over 100 years ago.
WW1 was fought by two colonial powers largely over their competing threats to their colonial holdings. The US belatedly, and strategically, joined both wars as an opportunist seeking to enlarge it's worldwide political and economic footprint at a time when the other major parties were debilitated by those wars. Nothing at all about" just wars"


While I agree that WWII started as a result of German disenfranchisement as a result of the Treaty of Versailles. But no, the USA didn’t join either war to enlarge its political foot print that came as result of WWII politicly, we can see that by Wilson’s 14 points speech in 1918 and right up to the late 1930 with the Neutrality Acts

Toenga wrote:
Japan joined in because the US had been aggressively denieing it of access to the required resources for it's economic progression.


As a result of its expansionist behaviour in invading China to seize the resources

Toenga wrote:
The geopolitical landscape present in the first half of the last century is of little relevance now except in the minds of too many nostalgic buffs and members of their powerful armaments industries in the US and Britain " Make America/Britain Great Again" camp


We can always learn from history, because in the end history tells ways of not repeating the same mistakes of the past. China has defiantly learned from it and using a mixture of economic and military strength to achieve its objectives

Toenga wrote:
The armaments industry needs international conflict for it's very existence so stirring those nationalistic pots is an extraordinarily important part of their existance, and therefore imbedded in the economic and political cultures of those players.


Agree to a point but without defence R&D a lot of dual use stuff would never have made it to civilian applications such as; GPS, internet, freeze drying and microwave ovens to name a few

Toenga wrote:
I think China would far rather just continue to buy up those Australian coal and iron ore mines rather then invade and get caught up in a hostile occupation scenario. Invade NZ? as a stepping stone to Antarctica? Perhaps if global warming makes Antartica habitable and swathes of China uninhabitable.


China was well on their way to doing just that. But fortunately for Australia, China committed an own goal with their belligerence towards Australia or anyone nation that remotely suggests anything negative about China or how it operates.

Australian Federal Government has adopted or strengthen laws that might make things a little difficult for China in any new future dealings with more power across the board with;
National Security Legislation Amendment (Espionage and Foreign Interference) Act 2018
Foreign Influence Transparency Scheme Act 2018
Electoral Legislation Amendment (Electoral Funding and Disclosure Reform) Bill 2018
Foreign Relations (State and Territory Arrangements) Act 2020
 
Toenga
Posts: 315
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:55 am

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:50 pm

johns624 wrote:
Toenga wrote:

WW2 over 70 years ago was a continuation of WW1 fought over 100 years ago.
WW1 was fought by two colonial powers largely over their competing threats to their colonial holdings. The US belatedly, and strategically, joined both wars as an opportunist seeking to enlarge it's worldwide political and economic footprint at a time when the other major parties were debilitated by those wars. Nothing at all about" just wars"
Japan joined in because the US had been aggressively denieing it of access to the required resources for it's economic progression.
The geopolitical landscape present in the first half of the last century is of little relevance now except in the minds of too many nostalgic buffs and members of their powerful armaments industries in the US and Britain " Make America/Britain Great Again" camp.
The armaments industry needs international conflict for it's very existence so stirring those nationalistic pots is an extraordinarily important part of their existance, and therefore imbedded in the economic and political cultures of those players.
I think China would far rather just continue to buy up those Australian coal and iron ore mines rather then invade and get caught up in a hostile occupation scenario. Invade NZ? as a stepping stone to Antarctica? Perhaps if global warming makes Antartica habitable and swathes of China uninhabitable.

What 2 colonial powers were those? Germany had very few colonies and the UK and France were on the same side. Japan had turned expansionistic and militarist well before we cut access to raw materials. In fact, that's sorta why we did it. The Chinese don't have to invade NZ, they'll just send their fleets of factory fishing trawlers down there and denude your EEZ and there's not a thing that you can do about it. Your isolationist attitude is losing you allies.

As I have already stated we would be much more comfortable trading with the US instead of China but your prohibitive tariffs on most agricultural produce and timber severly limits our trade opportunities. Trump even took you out of the proposed Pan Pacific free trade agreement that went ahead without the US.
Commentary from our right wing opposition leader on the subject.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... do-pacific
Apologies if I have already posted this.
 
johns624
Posts: 4289
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:42 pm

It's nice how you ignored my questions about your distorted view of history.
 
pune
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:32 pm

Toenga wrote:
johns624 wrote:
By the time something is a "direct threat", it's sometimes too late. While I make no excuses for Iraq, Afghanistan started out as a just war. ISIS was spawned, but AQ was extinguished.

Calling things that don't directly threaten you a "just war" is very judgmental. Just an attempt to impose outside values by force on another society.
Not surprising that eventually local support evaporated, like Vietnam some decades earlier.
And Al Qaeda was very largely funded by Saudi Arabia, and largely operated out of Pakistan. So they went to war with Iraq. Massive target miss that one, that very largely led to the formation of ISIS.
Getting back to nuclear powered submarines, how useful really would they be in any sub armageddon type conflict with a conceivable military enemy that Australia might face?


Wasn't Al Qaeda funded by the U.S. first and then later other countries ???

http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=0228
 
johns624
Posts: 4289
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:47 pm

pune wrote:
Toenga wrote:
johns624 wrote:
By the time something is a "direct threat", it's sometimes too late. While I make no excuses for Iraq, Afghanistan started out as a just war. ISIS was spawned, but AQ was extinguished.

Calling things that don't directly threaten you a "just war" is very judgmental. Just an attempt to impose outside values by force on another society.
Not surprising that eventually local support evaporated, like Vietnam some decades earlier.
And Al Qaeda was very largely funded by Saudi Arabia, and largely operated out of Pakistan. So they went to war with Iraq. Massive target miss that one, that very largely led to the formation of ISIS.
Getting back to nuclear powered submarines, how useful really would they be in any sub armageddon type conflict with a conceivable military enemy that Australia might face?


Wasn't Al Qaeda funded by the U.S. first and then later other countries ???

http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=0228
Your link talks about Masonic conspiracies. Can't you do any better? AQ wasn't even around in the 80s. OBL may have been one of thousands of foreign fighters in Afghanistan fighting the Russians but it's not like we funded or directly equipped him. He was just another face then.
 
Toenga
Posts: 315
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:55 am

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:59 pm

johns624 wrote:
It's nice how you ignored my questions about your distorted view of history.

All history is distorted by all commentators in attempt to explain the multitude of factors, and the interactions between them.
 
johns624
Posts: 4289
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:02 am

Toenga wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It's nice how you ignored my questions about your distorted view of history.

All history is distorted by all commentators in attempt to explain the multitude of factors, and the interactions between them.
Simple question--who were the two empires fighting over colonies?
 
A101
Posts: 2576
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:15 am

johns624 wrote:
pune wrote:
Toenga wrote:
Calling things that don't directly threaten you a "just war" is very judgmental. Just an attempt to impose outside values by force on another society.
Not surprising that eventually local support evaporated, like Vietnam some decades earlier.
And Al Qaeda was very largely funded by Saudi Arabia, and largely operated out of Pakistan. So they went to war with Iraq. Massive target miss that one, that very largely led to the formation of ISIS.
Getting back to nuclear powered submarines, how useful really would they be in any sub armageddon type conflict with a conceivable military enemy that Australia might face?


Wasn't Al Qaeda funded by the U.S. first and then later other countries ???

http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=0228
Your link talks about Masonic conspiracies. Can't you do any better? AQ wasn't even around in the 80s. OBL may have been one of thousands of foreign fighters in Afghanistan fighting the Russians but it's not like we funded or directly equipped him. He was just another face then.


Yep OBL came to prominence after the Russian withdrawal in the power vacuum left in its wake
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:47 am

Serious question for Toenga - If there wasn't the threat of US intervention, in your opinion would
1) China invade Taiwan?
2) Sink vessels passing by their man made islands?
 
Toenga
Posts: 315
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:24 am

johns624 wrote:
Toenga wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It's nice how you ignored my questions about your distorted view of history.

All history is distorted by all commentators in attempt to explain the multitude of factors, and the interactions between them.
Simple question--who were the two empires fighting over colonies?

There were more then two, competing for the spoils of colonial extraction, and then there was those Alliances of those Empires.
There are a lot more readily available authoritative sources of those pre war stresses then myself and continuing this line, is probably straining moderator tolerance so I will disengage.
 
johns624
Posts: 4289
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:39 am

Toenga wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Toenga wrote:
All history is distorted by all commentators in attempt to explain the multitude of factors, and the interactions between them.
Simple question--who were the two empires fighting over colonies?

There were more then two, competing for the spoils of colonial extraction, and then there was those Alliances of those Empires.
There are a lot more readily available authoritative sources of those pre war stresses then myself and continuing this line, is probably straining moderator tolerance so I will disengage.
That's a long drawn out way of saying "I got nuthin". If you said WW1 was a family feud amongst the royalty, then I would somewhat agree with you. If you said that the UK was afraid of the German Navy becoming too powerful, then I would agree with you. Other than that, no. France and the UK had colonial squabbles earlier in the century, but they were on the same side. The AHE had no colonies. Germany had minimal and they weren't worth much. Russia didn't have anything, either.
 
pune
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:13 am

Toenga wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It's nice how you ignored my questions about your distorted view of history.

All history is distorted by all commentators in attempt to explain the multitude of factors, and the interactions between them.


On the money. Even Afghanistan was exploited again and again because it has minerals. All the other talk is nothing but BS..

https://www.popsci.com/science/article/ ... es-ground/

And then there is this -

https://www.npr.org/2021/09/12/10363894 ... ions-to-9-

Afghanistan seems to be Iraq all over again :(
 
pune
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Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:14 am

@johns624, for you ^
 
GDB
Posts: 14408
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:31 am

pune wrote:
Toenga wrote:
johns624 wrote:
By the time something is a "direct threat", it's sometimes too late. While I make no excuses for Iraq, Afghanistan started out as a just war. ISIS was spawned, but AQ was extinguished.

Calling things that don't directly threaten you a "just war" is very judgmental. Just an attempt to impose outside values by force on another society.
Not surprising that eventually local support evaporated, like Vietnam some decades earlier.
And Al Qaeda was very largely funded by Saudi Arabia, and largely operated out of Pakistan. So they went to war with Iraq. Massive target miss that one, that very largely led to the formation of ISIS.
Getting back to nuclear powered submarines, how useful really would they be in any sub armageddon type conflict with a conceivable military enemy that Australia might face?


Wasn't Al Qaeda funded by the U.S. first and then later other countries ???

http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=0228


It was a name used to define the bunch of Islamists in places like Afghanistan, with their attention/targets now the 'far enemy' being the 'west' in particular the US, due to their conspiracy theories which said that the failures of their Islamist revolutions in place like Algeria and in the Gulf was not a rejection of their ideas but because the people had been 'brainwashed' by the infidel West and did not know their own minds.
Hence the need to strike at 'the far enemy', this is what US Law Enforcement agencies labelled 'The Base' a rough translation.
Did the US give aid to the disparate groups fighting the USSR in Afghanistan? Yes and not just them, the above did not exist then however so lazy conspiracy theories, as always, from ignorance or the originators hidden agendas, do not apply there.

With learning from history, in the 1940's as the Empire Of Japan swept southwards, plenty of those who opposed European colonial rule and brought into the Japanese 'co-prosperity sphere' PR very soon got the shock of their lives when their 'liberators' arrived, those that survived. Not defending colonial rule, the mere fact that faced with an enemy like Nazi Germany even the UK, with the largest navy in the world at the start of WW2, could not properly defend their Far Eastern colonies as well as fight in Europe and the Med/Mid East. This was the death knell for European colonies in general, starting when the 1945-51 UK government with the 'jewel in the British Empire'.

Worth remembering that Dominion nations, including NZ, would not and could not be ordered by London to join the war, along with South Africa, Canada and Australia.
The Empire of Japan did not roll that way, preferring a level of atrocities and intent to match Nazi Germany at times.

Today's China is not Imperial Japan, still they do not do any kind of human rights, from machine gunning unarmed protestors in their own capital, the millions who died under Mao's mistakes and revenge frenzies still cannot confront that, want to speak out? See Hong Kong recently? Those 're-education schools' await, if you are lucky.
The PRC has been run by a single party absolutely since 1949, you know what they say about what absolute power does.....
 
pune
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:16 am

GDB wrote:
pune wrote:
Toenga wrote:
Calling things that don't directly threaten you a "just war" is very judgmental. Just an attempt to impose outside values by force on another society.
Not surprising that eventually local support evaporated, like Vietnam some decades earlier.
And Al Qaeda was very largely funded by Saudi Arabia, and largely operated out of Pakistan. So they went to war with Iraq. Massive target miss that one, that very largely led to the formation of ISIS.
Getting back to nuclear powered submarines, how useful really would they be in any sub armageddon type conflict with a conceivable military enemy that Australia might face?


Wasn't Al Qaeda funded by the U.S. first and then later other countries ???

http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=0228


It was a name used to define the bunch of Islamists in places like Afghanistan, with their attention/targets now the 'far enemy' being the 'west' in particular the US, due to their conspiracy theories which said that the failures of their Islamist revolutions in place like Algeria and in the Gulf was not a rejection of their ideas but because the people had been 'brainwashed' by the infidel West and did not know their own minds.
Hence the need to strike at 'the far enemy', this is what US Law Enforcement agencies labelled 'The Base' a rough translation.
Did the US give aid to the disparate groups fighting the USSR in Afghanistan? Yes and not just them, the above did not exist then however so lazy conspiracy theories, as always, from ignorance or the originators hidden agendas, do not apply there.

With learning from history, in the 1940's as the Empire Of Japan swept southwards, plenty of those who opposed European colonial rule and brought into the Japanese 'co-prosperity sphere' PR very soon got the shock of their lives when their 'liberators' arrived, those that survived. Not defending colonial rule, the mere fact that faced with an enemy like Nazi Germany even the UK, with the largest navy in the world at the start of WW2, could not properly defend their Far Eastern colonies as well as fight in Europe and the Med/Mid East. This was the death knell for European colonies in general, starting when the 1945-51 UK government with the 'jewel in the British Empire'.

Worth remembering that Dominion nations, including NZ, would not and could not be ordered by London to join the war, along with South Africa, Canada and Australia.
The Empire of Japan did not roll that way, preferring a level of atrocities and intent to match Nazi Germany at times.

Today's China is not Imperial Japan, still they do not do any kind of human rights, from machine gunning unarmed protestors in their own capital, the millions who died under Mao's mistakes and revenge frenzies still cannot confront that, want to speak out? See Hong Kong recently? Those 're-education schools' await, if you are lucky.
The PRC has been run by a single party absolutely since 1949, you know what they say about what absolute power does.....


The problem you shared above while being valid is also not valid. The reason being that the Chinese have never seen or thought about democracy or democratic principles. Yes, people are suffering, but then even in democracies they suffer. It isn't given that justice will be absolute or right. To take from U.S. own examples, there are so many. For e.g. from 2008 financial crisis, where IIRC just a minor guy got arrested, all the rest got super bonuses and even while people suffered, houses repossessed for no faults of their own. Gun violence we hear happening in the U.S. and the moment you talk about it people talk about first amendment. The amount of scandals that seem to be uncovered everyday in U.S. should be shocking, but nothing is changed. The Boeing 737 saga we already know where again no arrests just fines and even the compensation was meagre.

https://www.thenationalsentinel.com/201 ... te-change/

Latest on the same topic -

https://sg.finance.yahoo.com/news/us-po ... 23079.html

But I'm guessing other than fines nobody will go to jail looking at past histories.

Few years ago, I read 'Russka' that helped me understand why Russia and the Russian people are the way they are. While, there may be prejudices built in which the Russians claim it does throw a light on why it is the way it is.

https://www.edwardrutherfurd.com/russka.html

You can throw all the shade all you want on China, I have absolutely no problems, but then other countries have to show in their behavior and doing things that they are better.

As I have shared probably before as well, U.S. is no angel. :( It is and has been more of a bully. Now the question is which bully is better or nastier. I come from a country which paid IMF loans through the nose and suffered enormously in the process. So, from that perspective, it isn't much of a difference. UK looted us for 200 years, and that is and was ok for most of the world. And now you have writers who write to distance the UK from East India Company and in fact have written about it. How easy it is not to take responsibility for one's own actions. :(

https://www.amazon.com/Anarchy-Relentle ... 1635573955

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... ime_change
 
GDB
Posts: 14408
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:35 am

For all the attempts to match oppressive regimes like China with the west, you cannot get around the major difference, for all their flaws democracies have the ability to change, the US disengaged from Vietnam due to loss of support at home, the end of Empire was carried out by democracies, indeed in the UK the fastest period of this happened under a party previously most identified with Empire, following on from the start by their political rivals in 1947.

Now you are banging on about the East India Company, yeah none of us have ever heard of that, we know nothing and you know everything because you are so good and we are so bad.
Ever heard of the RN's West Africa Squadron? Doubt it as it would impede knowing what we all think.
A non political account of it;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiSekII0sjw

Try getting back on topic, for the grown up discussion not your partial history whatabotism.

Some other diplomatic spats going on, which involve France and one of her former colonies;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... row-mounts
 
A101
Posts: 2576
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:19 am

I agree with most of what you said, but disagree to this passage,

GDB wrote:
Worth remembering that Dominion nations, including NZ, would not and could not be ordered by London to join the war, along with South Africa, Canada and Australia.


Although the constitution gave a degree of self-autonomy in relation to defence and foreign affairs, it was still within the realm of British Imperial Government to dictate foreign policy and to enter in treaties or declare war. It wasn’t until the Australia Act that the UK had relinquish all power over Australia
 
pune
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:56 pm

GDB wrote:
For all the attempts to match oppressive regimes like China with the west, you cannot get around the major difference, for all their flaws democracies have the ability to change, the US disengaged from Vietnam due to loss of support at home, the end of Empire was carried out by democracies, indeed in the UK the fastest period of this happened under a party previously most identified with Empire, following on from the start by their political rivals in 1947.

Now you are banging on about the East India Company, yeah none of us have ever heard of that, we know nothing and you know everything because you are so good and we are so bad.
Ever heard of the RN's West Africa Squadron? Doubt it as it would impede knowing what we all think.
A non political account of it;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiSekII0sjw

Try getting back on topic, for the grown up discussion not your partial history whatabotism.

Some other diplomatic spats going on, which involve France and one of her former colonies;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... row-mounts


Please, U.S. actually had a civil war due to slavery, the south didn't want to end it.

And then there is this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NXC4Q_4JVg

I will certainly go through what you have shared, no worries.
 
johns624
Posts: 4289
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:30 pm

pune wrote:
GDB wrote:
For all the attempts to match oppressive regimes like China with the west, you cannot get around the major difference, for all their flaws democracies have the ability to change, the US disengaged from Vietnam due to loss of support at home, the end of Empire was carried out by democracies, indeed in the UK the fastest period of this happened under a party previously most identified with Empire, following on from the start by their political rivals in 1947.

Now you are banging on about the East India Company, yeah none of us have ever heard of that, we know nothing and you know everything because you are so good and we are so bad.
Ever heard of the RN's West Africa Squadron? Doubt it as it would impede knowing what we all think.
A non political account of it;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiSekII0sjw

Try getting back on topic, for the grown up discussion not your partial history whatabotism.

Some other diplomatic spats going on, which involve France and one of her former colonies;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... row-mounts


Please, U.S. actually had a civil war due to slavery, the south didn't want to end it.

And then there is this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NXC4Q_4JVg

I will certainly go through what you have shared, no worries.

This is getting better and better. Now you're going back 150+ years. Look at your own religious riots in the present. You're still complaining about the British and they left over 70 years ago. Also, complaining that you had to repay IMF loans. That's what people do. I also like how you give China a pass because "they never had democracy".
 
pune
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:40 pm

johns624 wrote:
pune wrote:
GDB wrote:
For all the attempts to match oppressive regimes like China with the west, you cannot get around the major difference, for all their flaws democracies have the ability to change, the US disengaged from Vietnam due to loss of support at home, the end of Empire was carried out by democracies, indeed in the UK the fastest period of this happened under a party previously most identified with Empire, following on from the start by their political rivals in 1947.

Now you are banging on about the East India Company, yeah none of us have ever heard of that, we know nothing and you know everything because you are so good and we are so bad.
Ever heard of the RN's West Africa Squadron? Doubt it as it would impede knowing what we all think.
A non political account of it;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiSekII0sjw

Try getting back on topic, for the grown up discussion not your partial history whatabotism.

Some other diplomatic spats going on, which involve France and one of her former colonies;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... row-mounts


Please, U.S. actually had a civil war due to slavery, the south didn't want to end it.

And then there is this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NXC4Q_4JVg

I will certainly go through what you have shared, no worries.

This is getting better and better. Now you're going back 150+ years. Look at your own religious riots in the present. You're still complaining about the British and they left over 70 years ago. Also, complaining that you had to repay IMF loans. That's what people do. I also like how you give China a pass because "they never had democracy".


I gave no pass, I simply stated facts. Please let me know when China shared or told that they love democracy or going to have in their country. As far as religious riots are concerned, this is because the majority gave in to same or similar sentiments which happened in U.S. or U.K. I would never say India is different, it was different when it became a union in 1947. Westerners had made sure that the country was divided (India and Pakistan) and then were banking for India to fail. But our founding fathers held it together.

https://thewire.in/law/justice-akil-kur ... ty-to-rule

The Indian constitution when it was framed in the 1950s debated about a whole lot of things and still gave a lot of rope for future generations as they knew things change. Today, things have changed in India and not for the better. You should look at the Indian Aviation corner where I do share the corruption and whatnot that happens in India, especially with the current ruling party. See this month and last month, should give you ample stuff.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1465399
 
GDB
Posts: 14408
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:57 pm

A101 wrote:
I agree with most of what you said, but disagree to this passage,

GDB wrote:
Worth remembering that Dominion nations, including NZ, would not and could not be ordered by London to join the war, along with South Africa, Canada and Australia.


Although the constitution gave a degree of self-autonomy in relation to defence and foreign affairs, it was still within the realm of British Imperial Government to dictate foreign policy and to enter in treaties or declare war. It wasn’t until the Australia Act that the UK had relinquish all power over Australia


Yes in strict legal terms, however conscription was introduced in the UK, months before the outbreak of WW2, as even Chamberlain and his government now realized they’d been played by Hitler. In WW1, for the first time, it had been brought in halfway through and it was contentious and seen as counter to the British tradition. Point being they were not about to demand, or even request it of the Dominions. India, promised dominion status after WW1 and frankly betrayed, nonetheless the WW2 British Indian Army is the largest volunteer one in history but with an unspoken proviso, full independence afterwards.

The economic situation post war and now a PM who had believed India should be independent for 20 years, ensured it happened, whatever Churchill now in opposition said. Though he was shocked by a bright and for a recently demobbed young Brigadier at Tory Central Office, a prospective MP, with his plans to re invade and occupy India! His name was Enoch Powell.

Back to the present, who can really read the minds of the leaders of the PRC? We do know the pecking order, within China, The Han at the top, the rest to know their place, with special treatment for groups like the Uighur. Tibet did not do well either.
We do know there is massive corruption in China, seething anger at it and the often destructive effects on ordinary people, which the Party holds down with nationalist rhetoric (including the old favorite of how it’s not us, your actual rulers screwing you, it’s them, the other, the foreign ). Given the West’s history, led by Britain in the shameful Opium Wars but soon joined by all the other Western powers including the ‘anti colonial’ US, in setting up shop in China, at the point of their collective guns, the late 19th to mid 20th century span of this certainly gives them ammunition.

But the CCP has held absolute power in China for 72 years, about as long as the period outlined above. I do not think the regime can, even with the mass surveillance, have confidence in their mix of money but no freedom of speech, one major source of anger is the price paid to see a doctor, the backhanders and general corruption even there. A Communist state with that? We sorted that shit out in the UK the year before the PRC took power!

What’s all this got to do with these RAN subs? If China is the reason why is it behaving in the way it has been, against international law but now at sea rather than just at home. Is it that thing regimes do when they fear for their own legitimacy?
By trying to make the seas around the region, well beyond their waters, a Chinese lake, not least including Taiwan.
 
pune
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:17 pm

GDB wrote:
A101 wrote:
I agree with most of what you said, but disagree to this passage,

GDB wrote:
Worth remembering that Dominion nations, including NZ, would not and could not be ordered by London to join the war, along with South Africa, Canada and Australia.


Although the constitution gave a degree of self-autonomy in relation to defence and foreign affairs, it was still within the realm of British Imperial Government to dictate foreign policy and to enter in treaties or declare war. It wasn’t until the Australia Act that the UK had relinquish all power over Australia


Yes in strict legal terms, however conscription was introduced in the UK, months before the outbreak of WW2, as even Chamberlain and his government now realized they’d been played by Hitler. In WW1, for the first time, it had been brought in halfway through and it was contentious and seen as counter to the British tradition. Point being they were not about to demand, or even request it of the Dominions. India, promised dominion status after WW1 and frankly betrayed, nonetheless the WW2 British Indian Army is the largest volunteer one in history but with an unspoken proviso, full independence afterwards.

The economic situation post war and now a PM who had believed India should be independent for 20 years, ensured it happened, whatever Churchill now in opposition said. Though he was shocked by a bright and for a recently demobbed young Brigadier at Tory Central Office, a prospective MP, with his plans to re invade and occupy India! His name was Enoch Powell.

Back to the present, who can really read the minds of the leaders of the PRC? We do know the pecking order, within China, The Han at the top, the rest to know their place, with special treatment for groups like the Uighur. Tibet did not do well either.
We do know there is massive corruption in China, seething anger at it and the often destructive effects on ordinary people, which the Party holds down with nationalist rhetoric (including the old favorite of how it’s not us, your actual rulers screwing you, it’s them, the other, the foreign ). Given the West’s history, led by Britain in the shameful Opium Wars but soon joined by all the other Western powers including the ‘anti colonial’ US, in setting up shop in China, at the point of their collective guns, the late 19th to mid 20th century span of this certainly gives them ammunition.

But the CCP has held absolute power in China for 72 years, about as long as the period outlined above. I do not think the regime can, even with the mass surveillance, have confidence in their mix of money but no freedom of speech, one major source of anger is the price paid to see a doctor, the backhanders and general corruption even there. A Communist state with that? We sorted that shit out in the UK the year before the PRC took power!

What’s all this got to do with these RAN subs? If China is the reason why is it behaving in the way it has been, against international law but now at sea rather than just at home. Is it that thing regimes do when they fear for their own legitimacy?
By trying to make the seas around the region, well beyond their waters, a Chinese lake, not least including Taiwan.


The problem with that phrasing is that what China is doing is something unique, which we all know is not true. Hell, U.S. has 750+ military bases around the world in 80+ countries for what, for its own deployment as well as it is a threat to those countries.Add to that Trump wanted them to give more money for the 'defence' they provided. Did they ask for it, no, it was the U.S. who wanted it. Not even a year ago, they wanted to try and get Lakshwadeep for their own base. Somebody above had shared how the Japanese were evil or something on those lines but forgot that it was the U.S. which made it powerless and that because for the U.S. it was proving to be a competition.

https://money.cnn.com/2016/07/27/news/e ... index.html

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2021/ ... he-planet/

The Chinese looked at what U.S. did with the Japanese and made sure they won't fall into that trap. As simple as that.
 
pune
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:20 pm

For the Lakshwadeep bit read this, most media is now in the Indian Government's pocket so have to use opposition to share.

https://www.cpim.org/pressbriefs/assert ... -quit-quad

The Indian media was fully silent and complicit when the seventh fleet went around the islands and even the Indian Govt. sort of gave in. :(
 
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Re: ‘Stab in the back’: France accuses US of sinking Australia submarine deal

Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:45 pm

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