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NIKV69
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Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:22 pm

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/17/politics ... index.html

I knew something was fishy when Biden wouldn't name the two high profile ISIS-K members he said he killed with a drone strike in retaliation to the suicide bomber that killed out members of the military. I mean how do you not have positive ID before you strike? I hope I am wrong but it sure seems the WH was flailing on this one and rushed this to try to save face after many days of pure blunder trying to handle the Afghanistan pull put. 7 children died as well. Ugh.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:25 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/17/politics/kabul-drone-strike-us-military-intl-hnk/index.html

I knew something was fishy when Biden wouldn't name the two high profile ISIS-K members he said he killed with a drone strike in retaliation to the suicide bomber that killed out members of the military. I mean how do you not have positive ID before you strike? I hope I am wrong but it sure seems the WH was flailing on this one and rushed this to try to save face after many days of pure blunder trying to handle the Afghanistan pull put. 7 children died as well. Ugh.


You say this like it's the first time it's ever happened. The weapons may be smart, but the humans involved are as dumb as ever.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:32 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/17/politics/kabul-drone-strike-us-military-intl-hnk/index.html

I knew something was fishy when Biden wouldn't name the two high profile ISIS-K members he said he killed with a drone strike in retaliation to the suicide bomber that killed out members of the military. I mean how do you not have positive ID before you strike? I hope I am wrong but it sure seems the WH was flailing on this one and rushed this to try to save face after many days of pure blunder trying to handle the Afghanistan pull put. 7 children died as well. Ugh.


These errant strikes have been happening for years - under Biden, Trump, Obama, and Bush. Innocents have been killed in AFG, Pakistan, Yemen, etc. Fishy timing for a first post on the topic.

https://amp.france24.com/en/20190919-us-drone-strike

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/americ ... stan-ghani

https://chrgj.org/wp-content/uploads/20 ... Drones.pdf

https://www.hrw.org/report/2013/10/22/b ... ings-yemen
Last edited by Aaron747 on Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:50 pm

As far as mistaken strike targets go, this strike has to be near the top of the list. The entire strike was a mistake.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:55 pm

Is anyone actually surprised? The only "embarrassing" thing is that the President announced this as a successful strike killing ISIS-K leaders. And the horrible reality is that most Americans, even those here clutching their pearls, don't care about the many, many hundreds of innocent civilians that are and have been killed in these strikes and other various battles undertaken by the USA and its allies.

Of course neither does most of the world. Death of innocents is the awful truth of any battle between powers.

And words of sorrow and military commanders acknowledging their error will never bring back those wrongly killed or make their families whole.

Tugg
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:17 am

I have to say I respect the Taliban for how they have behaved in 2021. They handed us our ass strategically. Their leaders were simply more capable. The resolve was immeasurably greater among the Taliban than the US, much less the wretches who worked for us. I hope that the officials responsible are delivered to Afghanistan to be prosecuted for the murder.

I am all for legitimate military activity. This was a politically motivated revenge killing (as was declared). Is a serious criminal matter. This is basically a mi Lai. People need to go to jail.
Last edited by LCDFlight on Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:20 am

LCDFlight wrote:
I hope that the officials responsible are delivered to Afghanistan to be prosecuted for the murder.


??? When has that ever been US policy? We don't recognize the ICCJ, and have helped 'allies' cover their own out of borders murders. There's no moral high ground here.

And if you want to give props to the Taliban, this strategy goes way back, to at least 2012, when they started clawing back parts of the country, using Obama's drone strike increases as a recruiting point.
 
pune
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:58 am

I find the whole drone thing a bit of a laugh. You have an explosive which is designed to take half a city block, in which world of imagination you think that there won't be casualties. I have been reading about the same since 2001. The only thing that has changed over the years is how to make explosives more deadly and more dense and light-weight and still do same or more amount of damage. If you have a drone attack you are bound to get casualties. And the drone pilots have to watch and file action-taken report after seeing the grisly carnage they did. Some of them are bound to suffer from PTSD.

https://ptsdlawyers.com/ptsd-lawyers/drone-operators/

But this is not new or just now, I remember a specific scene from MASH which was about a mobile Army Surgical Hospital, the acronym become the name of the series. The show was about a group of doctors who were operating in the Korean War, sorry called as police action by U.S. but had 3 million American soldiers. Anyways, in that 'comedy drama' there is an episode of an American pilot who checks in this particular MASH unit and pilot is bubbly as he drops bombs, but he only sees clouds and goes home back every day. When he shows a few of the children who have been maimed due to bombs like his, the pilot is shown as full of remorse and says now he can never drop a bomb again.

While the whole thing was fiction, one message which the comedy drama gave and shared is that war is useless and just a sheer waste of human life. That is the message it gave and that is the reason it ran for the full 8 seasons, from what little I know, in those days 8 seasons were uncommon. People may feel free to correct me on that bit.

From what I read, those 8 seasons also changed something profoundly in Alan Alda and if he was not before, after that he became an anti-war activist.

https://www.sagawards.org/nominees/life ... pient/55th

The series - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068098/
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:14 am

We tried to make war safe for Americans fighting it and make the necessary inhumanity of warfare look “clean”. This is where we are, strategically defeated, but everyone thinks nothing of it. Wars that have historically produced good peace have been very destructive and total in scale. Third Punic War, British Civil War and Thirty Years War, Waterloo ending the Napoleonic Wars, US Civil War, WW II. Conclusive and a new order followed.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:50 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
We tried to make war safe for Americans fighting it and make the necessary inhumanity of warfare look “clean”. This is where we are, strategically defeated, but everyone thinks nothing of it. Wars that have historically produced good peace have been very destructive and total in scale. Third Punic War, British Civil War and Thirty Years War, Waterloo ending the Napoleonic Wars, US Civil War, WW II. Conclusive and a new order followed.


Isn't the critical difference here that those wars were between states? I agree that the 'fight over there' with drones strategy is borne out of the intention you describe, but what's the suggestion here? Level eastern KSA, most of populated AFG, and eastern Pakistan?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:24 pm

That's the issue when you're not fighting a just war, and by that I mean you're not fighting for your people and your territory.

The Talibans were, even if they might not be popular amongst many people over there, and might have trouble holding to power.

If we think we were on the good side of that civil war, then providing material support was OK, but all the fighting should have been done by locals.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:44 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
We tried to make war safe for Americans fighting it and make the necessary inhumanity of warfare look “clean”. This is where we are, strategically defeated, but everyone thinks nothing of it. Wars that have historically produced good peace have been very destructive and total in scale. Third Punic War, British Civil War and Thirty Years War, Waterloo ending the Napoleonic Wars, US Civil War, WW II. Conclusive and a new order followed.


Isn't the critical difference here that those wars were between states? I agree that the 'fight over there' with drones strategy is borne out of the intention you describe, but what's the suggestion here? Level eastern KSA, most of populated AFG, and eastern Pakistan?


And therein lies the challenge of Fourth Generation warfare—it’s not state-on-state and the entire doctrine of warfare is based on state actors since 1648. I haven’t an answer and neither does the “West”. Would total war inflicted on non-state actors work, hasn’t been tried and might well just make more enemies. Or could work, but it hasn’t been tried. Look to Israel because that’s become a trial act for 40 years.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:23 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
We tried to make war safe for Americans fighting it and make the necessary inhumanity of warfare look “clean”. This is where we are, strategically defeated, but everyone thinks nothing of it. Wars that have historically produced good peace have been very destructive and total in scale. Third Punic War, British Civil War and Thirty Years War, Waterloo ending the Napoleonic Wars, US Civil War, WW II. Conclusive and a new order followed.


Isn't the critical difference here that those wars were between states? I agree that the 'fight over there' with drones strategy is borne out of the intention you describe, but what's the suggestion here? Level eastern KSA, most of populated AFG, and eastern Pakistan?


And therein lies the challenge of Fourth Generation warfare—it’s not state-on-state and the entire doctrine of warfare is based on state actors since 1648. I haven’t an answer and neither does the “West”. Would total war inflicted on non-state actors work, hasn’t been tried and might well just make more enemies. Or could work, but it hasn’t been tried. Look to Israel because that’s become a trial act for 40 years.


Probably not the best test case since the region is very small and the 'fighting for own territory' principle still applies on both sides of the conflict. Though I guess they have tried both heavy handed and precision means in the last 50 years, and still no decisive result.

As you say making more enemies seems to be the issue. It's certainly happening with the drone approach, but the destructive plan I suggested could do even moreso. Imagine the effects of those locations - fallout would go east to the UAE, east into India, there would be tens or hundreds of millions affected. How many would end up unemployed and radicalized by 20, with their sights set on us?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:03 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Isn't the critical difference here that those wars were between states? I agree that the 'fight over there' with drones strategy is borne out of the intention you describe, but what's the suggestion here? Level eastern KSA, most of populated AFG, and eastern Pakistan?


And therein lies the challenge of Fourth Generation warfare—it’s not state-on-state and the entire doctrine of warfare is based on state actors since 1648. I haven’t an answer and neither does the “West”. Would total war inflicted on non-state actors work, hasn’t been tried and might well just make more enemies. Or could work, but it hasn’t been tried. Look to Israel because that’s become a trial act for 40 years.


Probably not the best test case since the region is very small and the 'fighting for own territory' principle still applies on both sides of the conflict. Though I guess they have tried both heavy handed and precision means in the last 50 years, and still no decisive result.

As you say making more enemies seems to be the issue. It's certainly happening with the drone approach, but the destructive plan I suggested could do even moreso. Imagine the effects of those locations - fallout would go east to the UAE, east into India, there would be tens or hundreds of millions affected. How many would end up unemployed and radicalized by 20, with their sights set on us?


Possibly true, but why didn’t that happen after WW II? The last battle in Europe, Germans fought along side Yanks against Germans. Both Germans and Japanese rapidly became Western allies. Could culture, religion or tribal instincts be a major factor?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:38 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

And therein lies the challenge of Fourth Generation warfare—it’s not state-on-state and the entire doctrine of warfare is based on state actors since 1648. I haven’t an answer and neither does the “West”. Would total war inflicted on non-state actors work, hasn’t been tried and might well just make more enemies. Or could work, but it hasn’t been tried. Look to Israel because that’s become a trial act for 40 years.


Probably not the best test case since the region is very small and the 'fighting for own territory' principle still applies on both sides of the conflict. Though I guess they have tried both heavy handed and precision means in the last 50 years, and still no decisive result.

As you say making more enemies seems to be the issue. It's certainly happening with the drone approach, but the destructive plan I suggested could do even moreso. Imagine the effects of those locations - fallout would go east to the UAE, east into India, there would be tens or hundreds of millions affected. How many would end up unemployed and radicalized by 20, with their sights set on us?


Possibly true, but why didn’t that happen after WW II? The last battle in Europe, Germans fought along side Yanks against Germans. Both Germans and Japanese rapidly became Western allies. Could culture, religion or tribal instincts be a major factor?


Perhaps neither - those were industrial states used to a manufacturing economy. Their people wanted to return to that ‘normal’ ASAP. Would that be the case among Emirati, Pakistani, Indians? Debatable
 
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Aesma
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:53 pm

I don't think that's it, simple farmers were still plentiful. But used to an organized, centralized, civilized society, yes. When the war was over, it was over. There was not thousands of nazis conducting guerilla warfare for years, or same with Japanese soldiers (well, there were a few of those, actually). Then the former enemies treated them well and helped them rebuild and get on.
 
johns624
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:08 am

I find it somewhat humorous that people are getting all upset about civilian deaths. They have happened wholesale since at least World War One. Think of the firebombings, nuclear bombs, the V rockets, rape of Nanking, etc, etc, etc.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:40 am

johns624 wrote:
I find it somewhat humorous that people are getting all upset about civilian deaths. They have happened wholesale since at least World War One. Think of the firebombings, nuclear bombs, the V rockets, rape of Nanking, etc, etc, etc.


It's mostly performative point-scoring for partisan purposes. If they were actually upset about it, they would be raising the issue consistently for years.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:16 am

johns624 wrote:
I find it somewhat humorous that people are getting all upset about civilian deaths. They have happened wholesale since at least World War One. Think of the firebombings, nuclear bombs, the V rockets, rape of Nanking, etc, etc, etc.


You might want to look a lot farther back than WW I. John Churchill burned Bavaria before the Battle of Blenheim, Sherman did much the same in Heorgia and the Carolinas. Wars are won by killing until the survivors give it up—see our Afghan experience for a recent example. It we who gave it up. For Americans, we left. For the Taliban, many Afghans and the Pakistani ISI, America was defeated. An important difference.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:59 am

Let's say that we're upset enough about it, that we make shows of contrition and remorse, that are immediately used by our enemies. The Taliban sure, but even Russia does it. Meanwhile Russia drops bombs indiscriminately in Syria without blinking.
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:04 am

It was already reported to be a mistake by journalist Nagieb Khaja in late August. He met the relatives to those killed. https://twitter.com/nagiebk/status/1432280765052690433

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investig ... questions/
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:51 am

Aaron747 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I find it somewhat humorous that people are getting all upset about civilian deaths. They have happened wholesale since at least World War One. Think of the firebombings, nuclear bombs, the V rockets, rape of Nanking, etc, etc, etc.


It's mostly performative point-scoring for partisan purposes. If they were actually upset about it, they would be raising the issue consistently for years.


Interesting, why where then you so upset when the US successfully killed the Iranian general via drone?. No innocent civilians killed then. Very successful strike, sent a powerful message to our enemies.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:07 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I find it somewhat humorous that people are getting all upset about civilian deaths. They have happened wholesale since at least World War One. Think of the firebombings, nuclear bombs, the V rockets, rape of Nanking, etc, etc, etc.


It's mostly performative point-scoring for partisan purposes. If they were actually upset about it, they would be raising the issue consistently for years.


Interesting, why where then you so upset when the US successfully killed the Iranian general via drone?. No innocent civilians killed then. Very successful strike, sent a powerful message to our enemies.


That was a different issue entirely. Soleimani was a military leader of a recognized state that we're not in declared war with. While his operations were at times a threat to our forces in Iraq, I felt he was primarily threat to Saudi/UAE forces in Yemen, and therefore the Saudis should be taking him out, not us. The last administration was setting a dangerous precedent that we would continue to do Riyadh's dirty work for them forever, and I have always been opposed to helping Saudi fight proxy war against Iran in Yemen. They should handle their backyard on their own - that has always been my position. And as you well know, the Yemen war has killed untold tens of thousands of civilians of all ages.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:16 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

It's mostly performative point-scoring for partisan purposes. If they were actually upset about it, they would be raising the issue consistently for years.


Interesting, why where then you so upset when the US successfully killed the Iranian general via drone?. No innocent civilians killed then. Very successful strike, sent a powerful message to our enemies.


That was a different issue entirely. Soleimani was a military leader of a recognized state that we're not in declared war with. While his operations were at times a threat to our forces in Iraq, I felt he was primarily threat to Saudi/UAE forces in Yemen, and therefore the Saudis should be taking him out, not us. The last administration was setting a dangerous precedent that we would continue to do Riyadh's dirty work for them forever, and I have always been opposed to helping Saudi fight proxy war against Iran in Yemen. They should handle their backyard on their own - that has always been my position. And as you well know, the Yemen war has killed untold tens of thousands of civilians of all ages.


He was killed as a retaliation of the Iranian blowing up an American drone. It sent a very powerful message to Iran to not try it again.

As for being upset about this, if anyone on the right is upset about this killing of civiliansyes you are right its for political points.

But no, what many of us are upset is how this hastly prepared strike was to exactly score political points and save face after the death of 13 US servicemembers. The rush to find a target and make a point cost those innocent lives. Past mistakes arent compared to this.

And yes many on the left are also doing a double standard by not being upset for innocent lives killed there, when they always show concern and anget when it happens. But of course they wont it was a Democtatic president who ordered it.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:21 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
The rush to find a target and make a point cost those innocent lives. Past mistakes arent compared to this.


This is completely illogical. We have been 'finding targets' and 'making a point' for twenty years. The false cries for the innocent are obvious to anyone following foreign policy closely all this time.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:05 pm

One has to consider the quality of the 'intelligence' and analysis used to determine who to attack. I think sometimes the USA's intelligence is give false info to make us look bad. Perhaps a family or tribe wants to get revenge on another family or tribe for some slight or a power play so gets the USA to do the dirty work for them. There is such desperation to 'get' to terrorist enemies, limited time to act, that decisions are made without confirmation or they get false confirmation of targets.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:54 am

ltbewr wrote:
One has to consider the quality of the 'intelligence' and analysis used to determine who to attack. I think sometimes the USA's intelligence is give false info to make us look bad. Perhaps a family or tribe wants to get revenge on another family or tribe for some slight or a power play so gets the USA to do the dirty work for them. There is such desperation to 'get' to terrorist enemies, limited time to act, that decisions are made without confirmation or they get false confirmation of targets.


It's about professionalism. The US sometimes meets and sometimes fails to meet that standard. We are an open society, so we are free to clear the air on this. The US side fell short and was unprofessional. Live weapons should not be in the hands of people who are not professional enough to know how to use them. That team should be demoted to simulators only for at least a year. They don't have what it takes to be doing ops in the real world.

This was a tremendously harmful event, not only for the innocent loss of life, but it will embolden enemies, because they can see that our most elite strike team is that incompetent.

The opposite case was when Trump got lucky and struck Gen. Suleimon of Iran. That was a gutsy call where they actually did the work to understand who was in the vehicle, and took out a man who was a valid war target.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:21 am

LCDFlight wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
One has to consider the quality of the 'intelligence' and analysis used to determine who to attack. I think sometimes the USA's intelligence is give false info to make us look bad. Perhaps a family or tribe wants to get revenge on another family or tribe for some slight or a power play so gets the USA to do the dirty work for them. There is such desperation to 'get' to terrorist enemies, limited time to act, that decisions are made without confirmation or they get false confirmation of targets.


It's about professionalism. The US sometimes meets and sometimes fails to meet that standard. We are an open society, so we are free to clear the air on this. The US side fell short and was unprofessional. Live weapons should not be in the hands of people who are not professional enough to know how to use them. That team should be demoted to simulators only for at least a year. They don't have what it takes to be doing ops in the real world.

This was a tremendously harmful event, not only for the innocent loss of life, but it will embolden enemies, because they can see that our most elite strike team is that incompetent.

The opposite case was when Trump got lucky and struck Gen. Suleimon of Iran. That was a gutsy call where they actually did the work to understand who was in the vehicle, and took out a man who was a valid war target.


That administration and the two before it had regular hits and misses. In nearly all cases, if we're being intellectually consistent, the misses would match the description in your first paragraph. There may be various reasons the intel was wrong, but the strikes were done without having the right information at the end of the day. If this wasn't an issue, there would not be hundreds of articles from human rights watchdogs and warfare legal analysis groups on all the misses the last twenty years.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:23 am

Off topic, but did anyone read the NYT article on how the Mossad remotely killed the Iranian nuclear scientist? Remote controlled gun mounted on a pickup; they used another pickup with cameras to verify he was driving so they wouldn’t miss. Mile down the road and kabluey. His wife in the passenger seat was uninjured.
 
tu204
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:42 am

Let's hope this was the last war crime in this 20 year long invasion.

I don't see any chance of those responsible standing trial (although that's what the US expects others to do for some reason), but maybe they will at least give compensation to families of the dead and injured.

Btw, looks like the family of the deceased was working with the occupying forces. Ironic.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:56 am

tu204 wrote:
Let's hope this was the last war crime in this 20 year long invasion.

I don't see any chance of those responsible standing trial (although that's what the US expects others to do for some reason), but maybe they will at least give compensation to families of the dead and injured.

Btw, looks like the family of the deceased was working with the occupying forces. Ironic.


Right, because Russian involvement in the region is also coming from a moral high ground. :sarcastic:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/10/15/syr ... astructure
 
tu204
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:27 am

Aaron747 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Let's hope this was the last war crime in this 20 year long invasion.

I don't see any chance of those responsible standing trial (although that's what the US expects others to do for some reason), but maybe they will at least give compensation to families of the dead and injured.

Btw, looks like the family of the deceased was working with the occupying forces. Ironic.


Right, because Russian involvement in the region is also coming from a moral high ground. :sarcastic:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/10/15/syr ... astructure


5 years of Russian involvement and much less than what the US wasted at least met the objective of saving Syria and stopping ISIS (not saying the last was a "Mother Teresa move, but in Russian interests to kill the bad guys far from Russian borders rather than hunt them down in Russia, but still).

On the other, a month hasn't passed since the US fled Afghanistan and ISIS is making some big gains in Afghanistan as we speak. I wouldn't be too surprised if Russia and ODKB countries start openly supporting the Taliban shortly and again cleaning up the mess left behind by the US (just like Syria) even though in Russia the Taliban is labeled as an illegal organisation. They are by far the "nicest kids on the block" out of all possible options.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:18 am

tu204 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Let's hope this was the last war crime in this 20 year long invasion.

I don't see any chance of those responsible standing trial (although that's what the US expects others to do for some reason), but maybe they will at least give compensation to families of the dead and injured.

Btw, looks like the family of the deceased was working with the occupying forces. Ironic.


Right, because Russian involvement in the region is also coming from a moral high ground. :sarcastic:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/10/15/syr ... astructure


5 years of Russian involvement and much less than what the US wasted at least met the objective of saving Syria and stopping ISIS (not saying the last was a "Mother Teresa move, but in Russian interests to kill the bad guys far from Russian borders rather than hunt them down in Russia, but still).

On the other, a month hasn't passed since the US fled Afghanistan and ISIS is making some big gains in Afghanistan as we speak. I wouldn't be too surprised if Russia and ODKB countries start openly supporting the Taliban shortly and again cleaning up the mess left behind by the US (just like Syria) even though in Russia the Taliban is labeled as an illegal organisation. They are by far the "nicest kids on the block" out of all possible options.


Yeah, nah. All of the UNSC permanent members have blood on their hands in this region. They have all meddled or set the stage for the current environment at one point or another, and all continue to deal arms to players in the region - China arguably least so since they have not had a major native arms industry until quite recently. Thanks for playing.
 
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keesje
Posts: 14609
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:22 am

I'm surprized the truth even made it into mainstream news. Usually if no one wants to know, stay quiet.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 20113
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:25 am

tu204 wrote:
Let's hope this was the last war crime in this 20 year long invasion.

I don't see any chance of those responsible standing trial (although that's what the US expects others to do for some reason), but maybe they will at least give compensation to families of the dead and injured.

Btw, looks like the family of the deceased was working with the occupying forces. Ironic.


People in glass dachas shouldn’t throw stones.
 
GDB
Posts: 14396
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:00 am

keesje wrote:
I'm surprized the truth even made it into mainstream news. Usually if no one wants to know, stay quiet.


These mistakes have been consistently reported for years.
The armed drone program as we know it, was always coming, it was however speeded up when in the 1999/2000 period, when Bin Laden was already wanted for helping to inspire and fund attacks such as the US embassies in Africa and the USS Cole. Drones flying over the training camp, where Bin Laden had been interviewed by a CNN reporter where he made clear his intentions towards the US, had on at least one occasion indentified Bin Laden, being taller than average and due to that interview and his PR, was well known.

The President asked the inevitable question ‘how do we get him, kill or capture?’ The military absolutely said no sending people in, ‘Blackhawk Down’ was fresh in the memory, as was Lebanon and Desert One in Iran.
The drone used, the early version of the MQ-1 Predator were unarmed, given that having sighted Bin Laden but being unable to do more than report it, a crash program to arm the drones started in June 2000, the first Hellfire firings being started for testing between May and June 2001, run by Cofer Black, then head of the CIA Counterterrorism Unit.
However by then, the members of the ‘Planes Operation’ brought to Bin Laden for logistics and funding, by Khalid Sheik Mohammed in late 1999, were largely in place in the US, in training.
 
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keesje
Posts: 14609
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:33 am

GDB wrote:
keesje wrote:
I'm surprized the truth even made it into mainstream news. Usually if no one wants to know, stay quiet.


These mistakes have been consistently reported for years.
The armed drone program as we know it, was always coming, it was however speeded up when in the 1999/2000 period, when Bin Laden was already wanted for helping to inspire and fund attacks such as the US embassies in Africa and the USS Cole. Drones flying over the training camp, where Bin Laden had been interviewed by a CNN reporter where he made clear his intentions towards the US, had on at least one occasion indentified Bin Laden, being taller than average and due to that interview and his PR, was well known.

The President asked the inevitable question ‘how do we get him, kill or capture?’ The military absolutely said no sending people in, ‘Blackhawk Down’ was fresh in the memory, as was Lebanon and Desert One in Iran.
The drone used, the early version of the MQ-1 Predator were unarmed, given that having sighted Bin Laden but being unable to do more than report it, a crash program to arm the drones started in June 2000, the first Hellfire firings being started for testing between May and June 2001, run by Cofer Black, then head of the CIA Counterterrorism Unit.
However by then, the members of the ‘Planes Operation’ brought to Bin Laden for logistics and funding, by Khalid Sheik Mohammed in late 1999, were largely in place in the US, in training.


Interesting back ground information, but this one seems less technical, more emotional.

The US public / militairy needed revenge / strike back for the 13 US soldiers killed just before.

Everyone cheered the precise high tech drone kill of 2 operatives for Islamic State Khorasan, or ISIS-K on their way to the airport.

We got 'm this time, preventing more innocent getting killed.

Image
https://nypost.com/2021/08/28/drone-str ... agon-says/

Everybody knew the truth 2 weeks ago, but hoped giving it time would get it overshadowed, reduced, forgotten.
 
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seb146
Posts: 23962
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:31 pm

keesje wrote:
GDB wrote:
keesje wrote:
I'm surprized the truth even made it into mainstream news. Usually if no one wants to know, stay quiet.


These mistakes have been consistently reported for years.
The armed drone program as we know it, was always coming, it was however speeded up when in the 1999/2000 period, when Bin Laden was already wanted for helping to inspire and fund attacks such as the US embassies in Africa and the USS Cole. Drones flying over the training camp, where Bin Laden had been interviewed by a CNN reporter where he made clear his intentions towards the US, had on at least one occasion indentified Bin Laden, being taller than average and due to that interview and his PR, was well known.

The President asked the inevitable question ‘how do we get him, kill or capture?’ The military absolutely said no sending people in, ‘Blackhawk Down’ was fresh in the memory, as was Lebanon and Desert One in Iran.
The drone used, the early version of the MQ-1 Predator were unarmed, given that having sighted Bin Laden but being unable to do more than report it, a crash program to arm the drones started in June 2000, the first Hellfire firings being started for testing between May and June 2001, run by Cofer Black, then head of the CIA Counterterrorism Unit.
However by then, the members of the ‘Planes Operation’ brought to Bin Laden for logistics and funding, by Khalid Sheik Mohammed in late 1999, were largely in place in the US, in training.


Interesting back ground information, but this one seems less technical, more emotional.

The US public / militairy needed revenge / strike back for the 13 US soldiers killed just before.


https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/23/asia/afg ... index.html

In 2019, a drone strike killed wedding attendees in Afghanistan. Remind us who was president then and where the right wing outrage was?

Drone strikes killing innocents happens far too often. When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Isn't that the saying?
 
GDB
Posts: 14396
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:42 pm

seb146 wrote:
keesje wrote:
GDB wrote:

These mistakes have been consistently reported for years.
The armed drone program as we know it, was always coming, it was however speeded up when in the 1999/2000 period, when Bin Laden was already wanted for helping to inspire and fund attacks such as the US embassies in Africa and the USS Cole. Drones flying over the training camp, where Bin Laden had been interviewed by a CNN reporter where he made clear his intentions towards the US, had on at least one occasion indentified Bin Laden, being taller than average and due to that interview and his PR, was well known.

The President asked the inevitable question ‘how do we get him, kill or capture?’ The military absolutely said no sending people in, ‘Blackhawk Down’ was fresh in the memory, as was Lebanon and Desert One in Iran.
The drone used, the early version of the MQ-1 Predator were unarmed, given that having sighted Bin Laden but being unable to do more than report it, a crash program to arm the drones started in June 2000, the first Hellfire firings being started for testing between May and June 2001, run by Cofer Black, then head of the CIA Counterterrorism Unit.
However by then, the members of the ‘Planes Operation’ brought to Bin Laden for logistics and funding, by Khalid Sheik Mohammed in late 1999, were largely in place in the US, in training.


Interesting back ground information, but this one seems less technical, more emotional.

The US public / militairy needed revenge / strike back for the 13 US soldiers killed just before.


https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/23/asia/afg ... index.html

In 2019, a drone strike killed wedding attendees in Afghanistan. Remind us who was president then and where the right wing outrage was?

Drone strikes killing innocents happens far too often. When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Isn't that the saying?


A fair point and as for the nail analogy, it is really a symptom of how a nation with superpower resources does war, the whole system is set up for that end and it's human nature, historical reality. How else could some small country in NW Europe, really a series of islands, with not even a big population relative to other European powers, rule much of the world for over a century? Not with drones but warships (from also the birthplace of the industrial revolution). Not always to the bad, witness the RN's interdiction of the slave trade.

After 9/11, it would be a very brave President who when presented with what their intel/military people is good information on a terrorist, given the options doing nothing (with 9/11 fresh in their mind), using a conventional airstrike - with much more risk of innocent casualties and little check before firing, or sending SF in, which can include snipers to kill ID'd targets, or a drone.
In fact, all the above has been done.

The genie is out of the bottle, so the debate should be facing the reality that drones have made targeted attacks too easy, too risk averse, so it follows the temptation to resort them usually wins out. Meaning many more drone strikes, making inevitable mistakes.
Maybe the answer is to use SF when possible, in place of some drone strikes, in particular when intel is less certain so mistakes are more likely.

Even the sensors on drones cannot match, with modern optics, a SF team in position to survey the target, will always have a better look at the target, to check the intel.
But that makes more risky operations, meaning a leader, US President included, faces the prospect of losing highly trained personnel by death or capture.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 15995
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:00 pm

GDB wrote:
seb146 wrote:
keesje wrote:

Interesting back ground information, but this one seems less technical, more emotional.

The US public / militairy needed revenge / strike back for the 13 US soldiers killed just before.


https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/23/asia/afg ... index.html

In 2019, a drone strike killed wedding attendees in Afghanistan. Remind us who was president then and where the right wing outrage was?

Drone strikes killing innocents happens far too often. When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Isn't that the saying?


A fair point and as for the nail analogy, it is really a symptom of how a nation with superpower resources does war, the whole system is set up for that end and it's human nature, historical reality. How else could some small country in NW Europe, really a series of islands, with not even a big population relative to other European powers, rule much of the world for over a century? Not with drones but warships (from also the birthplace of the industrial revolution). Not always to the bad, witness the RN's interdiction of the slave trade.

After 9/11, it would be a very brave President who when presented with what their intel/military people is good information on a terrorist, given the options doing nothing (with 9/11 fresh in their mind), using a conventional airstrike - with much more risk of innocent casualties and little check before firing, or sending SF in, which can include snipers to kill ID'd targets, or a drone.
In fact, all the above has been done.

The genie is out of the bottle, so the debate should be facing the reality that drones have made targeted attacks too easy, too risk averse, so it follows the temptation to resort them usually wins out. Meaning many more drone strikes, making inevitable mistakes.
Maybe the answer is to use SF when possible, in place of some drone strikes, in particular when intel is less certain so mistakes are more likely.

Even the sensors on drones cannot match, with modern optics, a SF team in position to survey the target, will always have a better look at the target, to check the intel.
But that makes more risky operations, meaning a leader, US President included, faces the prospect of losing highly trained personnel by death or capture.


I'm not sure what other Americans think, but SF teams doing good work is highly preferable to our record with the drones. SF teams are unlikely to generate scores of future terrorists.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 20113
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Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:32 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
I'm not sure what other Americans think, but SF teams doing good work is highly preferable to our record with the drones. SF teams are unlikely to generate scores of future terrorists.


It sounds like a good idea, but it only seems feasible when you're already an occupying force and have huge resources in-country, as America was in Afghanistan. Such an operation in Afghanistan today would be very difficult. I suspect the risks would be deemed to great when a drone could do it (assuming the intelligence is good enough!)

Yes, the risks of civilian casualties is far greater with a drone, but sadly that rarely seems to be a deciding factor since it's easy to just say "Oops, our bad!" and a few years later pay some compensation.
 
GDB
Posts: 14396
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Drone strike killed innocent civilians not ISIS-K

Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:51 pm

scbriml wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
I'm not sure what other Americans think, but SF teams doing good work is highly preferable to our record with the drones. SF teams are unlikely to generate scores of future terrorists.


It sounds like a good idea, but it only seems feasible when you're already an occupying force and have huge resources in-country, as America was in Afghanistan. Such an operation in Afghanistan today would be very difficult. I suspect the risks would be deemed to great when a drone could do it (assuming the intelligence is good enough!)

Yes, the risks of civilian casualties is far greater with a drone, but sadly that rarely seems to be a deciding factor since it's easy to just say "Oops, our bad!" and a few years later pay some compensation.


True but it can be done in even an unoccupied environment, in fact the less ‘footprint’ makes for a more secure operation when you think about it.
Currently, the longest recorded sniper shot was done by a Canadian marksman in Iraq, on an ID’d ISIS target. You would not call the chaotic battleground of ISIS in Iraq a place occupied by Western forces as in the 2000's. Canada is not a major power though it has a very well trained and experienced military.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFXHZieJmVs

Ironically the President lambasted from the left and when it suited later, the right, for excessive drone use, was under pressure to use a drone or even an airdropped bomb, on a house of great interest in 2011. He took the more risky option despite the bad history of similar, like the notorious incidents I listed further up, which many of his staff were haunted by. But they did it, avoided demolishing part of a residential area, getting ultimate proof they had the right target. After slotting the creep.

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