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seb146
Posts: 24068
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:06 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Probably for the very simple reason a gun license or ID is a government or state issued form of Identification.


Unlike identification from STATE universities or STATE colleges or STATE funded education. Not even the same.... how?
 
bpatus297
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:20 pm

seb146 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Probably for the very simple reason a gun license or ID is a government or state issued form of Identification.


Unlike identification from STATE universities or STATE colleges or STATE funded education. Not even the same.... how?


Colleges, even ones that are run by the State, usually fall under the State Department of Education. Driver's licenses and States IDs fall under the State's Department of State (or whatever they call it). The State Department of States now have to abide by the Read ID Act, colleges do not. There is a huge difference in the identifications.
 
extender
Posts: 979
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:24 pm

seb146 wrote:
Unlike identification from STATE universities or STATE colleges or STATE funded education. Not even the same.... how?


Universities and colleges do not state whether they are foreign or not.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3998
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:41 pm

extender wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Unlike identification from STATE universities or STATE colleges or STATE funded education. Not even the same.... how?

Universities and colleges do not state whether they are foreign or not.


That is irrelevant. We are talking about voting - by voters who are already registered to vote. We are talking about people, who are legally registered, being denied the right to vote because there government ID is from a State College or University, rather than from a gun show.

I don't know why that is so hard to understand.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1423
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:56 pm

alfa164 wrote:
extender wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Unlike identification from STATE universities or STATE colleges or STATE funded education. Not even the same.... how?

Universities and colleges do not state whether they are foreign or not.


That is irrelevant. We are talking about voting - by voters who are already registered to vote. We are talking about people, who are legally registered, being denied the right to vote because there government ID is from a State College or University, rather than from a gun show.

I don't know why that is so hard to understand.


So then explain to me, why can't someone buy liquor with a State university ID?




Examples of Identification that are not bona fide
U.S. Government Immigrant identification card
Birth Certificate
School or work identification card
Identification issued by a non-government agency
Social Security card
Interim or temporary driver license or receipt for license from DMV
Foreign driver license/identification card
Check cashing card
Otherwise valid document that is expired, altered, borrowed, stolen, counterfeit, or forged


https://www.abc.ca.gov/education/licens ... ification/

This is California's laws, they can't sell you liquor if you bring a school ID.

So you are basically saying, yes don't allow them to buy booze with that ID, but make an exception to voting? Is that it? on what are we going to base this, on feelings or nuance? Because its pretty clear and simple, a college ID is not an official government issued ID even if the college is public. That's why they can't sell you liquor in California, for example.

And what's up with that straw man? gun show? a gun license is a government issued form of ID. Explain why now are we talking about gun shows.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16454
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:00 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
extender wrote:
Universities and colleges do not state whether they are foreign or not.


That is irrelevant. We are talking about voting - by voters who are already registered to vote. We are talking about people, who are legally registered, being denied the right to vote because there government ID is from a State College or University, rather than from a gun show.

I don't know why that is so hard to understand.


So then explain to me, why can't someone buy liquor with a State university ID?




Examples of Identification that are not bona fide
U.S. Government Immigrant identification card
Birth Certificate
School or work identification card
Identification issued by a non-government agency
Social Security card
Interim or temporary driver license or receipt for license from DMV
Foreign driver license/identification card
Check cashing card
Otherwise valid document that is expired, altered, borrowed, stolen, counterfeit, or forged


https://www.abc.ca.gov/education/licens ... ification/

This is California's laws, they can't sell you liquor if you bring a school ID.

So you are basically saying, yes don't allow them to buy booze with that ID, but make an exception to voting? Is that it? on what are we going to base this, on feelings or nuance? Because its pretty clear and simple, a college ID is not an official government issued ID even if the college is public. That's why they can't sell you liquor in California, for example.

And what's up with that straw man? gun show? a gun license is a government issued form of ID. Explain why now are we talking about gun shows.


I ask you again, from page 1: Are you for a national standard or do you want state/local control over voter standards and processes?
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:00 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
extender wrote:
Universities and colleges do not state whether they are foreign or not.


That is irrelevant. We are talking about voting - by voters who are already registered to vote. We are talking about people, who are legally registered, being denied the right to vote because there government ID is from a State College or University, rather than from a gun show.

I don't know why that is so hard to understand.


So then explain to me, why can't someone buy liquor with a State university ID?




Examples of Identification that are not bona fide
U.S. Government Immigrant identification card
Birth Certificate
School or work identification card
Identification issued by a non-government agency
Social Security card
Interim or temporary driver license or receipt for license from DMV
Foreign driver license/identification card
Check cashing card
Otherwise valid document that is expired, altered, borrowed, stolen, counterfeit, or forged


https://www.abc.ca.gov/education/licens ... ification/

This is California's laws, they can't sell you liquor if you bring a school ID.

So you are basically saying, yes don't allow them to buy booze with that ID, but make an exception to voting? Is that it? on what are we going to base this, on feelings or nuance? Because its pretty clear and simple, a college ID is not an official government issued ID even if the college is public. That's why they can't sell you liquor in California, for example.

And what's up with that straw man? gun show? a gun license is a government issued form of ID. Explain why now are we talking about gun shows.


All they are wanting at the place of registration is voter id. We do not get picture iD's on voter registrations, so therefore it is just a picture and your name. Why wouldn't a University ID be allowed?

This isn't about age or address. It is purely about your name and a matching picture ID. As for government functioning. Most state universities/colleges are government funded. So why isn't that a government ID?
 
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seb146
Posts: 24068
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:10 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
extender wrote:
Universities and colleges do not state whether they are foreign or not.


That is irrelevant. We are talking about voting - by voters who are already registered to vote. We are talking about people, who are legally registered, being denied the right to vote because there government ID is from a State College or University, rather than from a gun show.

I don't know why that is so hard to understand.


So then explain to me, why can't someone buy liquor with a State university ID?




Examples of Identification that are not bona fide
U.S. Government Immigrant identification card
Birth Certificate
School or work identification card
Identification issued by a non-government agency
Social Security card
Interim or temporary driver license or receipt for license from DMV
Foreign driver license/identification card
Check cashing card
Otherwise valid document that is expired, altered, borrowed, stolen, counterfeit, or forged


https://www.abc.ca.gov/education/licens ... ification/

This is California's laws, they can't sell you liquor if you bring a school ID.

So you are basically saying, yes don't allow them to buy booze with that ID, but make an exception to voting? Is that it? on what are we going to base this, on feelings or nuance? Because its pretty clear and simple, a college ID is not an official government issued ID even if the college is public. That's why they can't sell you liquor in California, for example.

And what's up with that straw man? gun show? a gun license is a government issued form of ID. Explain why now are we talking about gun shows.


State schools receive tax dollars. So, it technically is government issued ID. But, using your logic, why should gun licenses be enough ID for voting?

I am not talking about gun shows. I am talking about why it is legal to show gun permits to vote but not photo ID from your school.

EDIT:

IIRC, California allows a person to register to vote at the DMV when they get their ID. Oregon automatically registers people to vote when they get any kind of ID. Instead of running around, waiting in multiple lines, being told this or that is not acceptable. What is wrong with that system?
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 23088
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Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:56 pm

Discuss the topic, not other users.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:27 pm

seb146 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

That is irrelevant. We are talking about voting - by voters who are already registered to vote. We are talking about people, who are legally registered, being denied the right to vote because there government ID is from a State College or University, rather than from a gun show.

I don't know why that is so hard to understand.


So then explain to me, why can't someone buy liquor with a State university ID?




Examples of Identification that are not bona fide
U.S. Government Immigrant identification card
Birth Certificate
School or work identification card
Identification issued by a non-government agency
Social Security card
Interim or temporary driver license or receipt for license from DMV
Foreign driver license/identification card
Check cashing card
Otherwise valid document that is expired, altered, borrowed, stolen, counterfeit, or forged


https://www.abc.ca.gov/education/licens ... ification/

This is California's laws, they can't sell you liquor if you bring a school ID.

So you are basically saying, yes don't allow them to buy booze with that ID, but make an exception to voting? Is that it? on what are we going to base this, on feelings or nuance? Because its pretty clear and simple, a college ID is not an official government issued ID even if the college is public. That's why they can't sell you liquor in California, for example.

And what's up with that straw man? gun show? a gun license is a government issued form of ID. Explain why now are we talking about gun shows.


State schools receive tax dollars. So, it technically is government issued ID. But, using your logic, why should gun licenses be enough ID for voting?

I am not talking about gun shows. I am talking about why it is legal to show gun permits to vote but not photo ID from your school.

EDIT:

IIRC, California allows a person to register to vote at the DMV when they get their ID. Oregon automatically registers people to vote when they get any kind of ID. Instead of running around, waiting in multiple lines, being told this or that is not acceptable. What is wrong with that system?


School IDs are issued by individual schools, not the state Department of State or equivalent. School IDs simply identify students at that school. To start, they are missing all of the verification and registration with various records systems. This is a really strange hill for you to try conquer. It is accepted by almost everyone that a school ID is not a valid Government issued ID. I suppose schools could come into compliance with the Real ID Act, but it is probably a lot more easy to just tell students to get an ID from their state.
 
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flyingclrs727
Posts: 2858
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:20 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
SoCalPilot wrote:
Why not just use a state issued ID?

How is having to show an ID to vote racist but having to show an ID for a vaccine passport not? I suppose people who support vaccine passports don't want people of color around them at restaurants and bars?


Such as? A driver's license is pointless for people who don't drive & not worth the hassles.


I know in Texas you have a choice of a driver's license or state ID card. They both can be used for boarding aircraft, buying liquor, entering night clubs, buying restricted prescription drugs, etc. We also have a free voter ID that can only be used for voting.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16454
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:56 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Such voters more frequently have difficulty obtaining ID, because they cannot afford or cannot obtain the underlying documents that are a prerequisite to obtaining government-issued photo ID card


And you have evidence you can cite/source for us demonstrating that this statement is 1. factually incorrect and 2. intends to disparage the abilities of minorities?

If not, then that doesn't say what you think/claim they are saying.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24068
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:20 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
School IDs are issued by individual schools, not the state Department of State or equivalent. School IDs simply identify students at that school. To start, they are missing all of the verification and registration with various records systems. This is a really strange hill for you to try conquer. It is accepted by almost everyone that a school ID is not a valid Government issued ID. I suppose schools could come into compliance with the Real ID Act, but it is probably a lot more easy to just tell students to get an ID from their state.


And the same information states use for state issued ID is on file at state schools.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:12 pm

seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
School IDs are issued by individual schools, not the state Department of State or equivalent. School IDs simply identify students at that school. To start, they are missing all of the verification and registration with various records systems. This is a really strange hill for you to try conquer. It is accepted by almost everyone that a school ID is not a valid Government issued ID. I suppose schools could come into compliance with the Real ID Act, but it is probably a lot more easy to just tell students to get an ID from their state.


And the same information states use for state issued ID is on file at state schools.


Again, the school doesn't verify anything. I never gave my birth certificate, social security card, utility bills, lease or anything else to a college. All they got was my transcripts, application, money, and a copy of my government issues ID. They used my drivers license to verify my identity! All the school cares about is if the student is registered there. School IDs are not even remotely close to a Government issues ID.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1347
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:48 pm

I don’t have a big problem with voter ID. It is another case where both sides look stupid. The system where a voter identifies himself or herself is adequate, as long as the fraud rate is tracked and dealt with. While perhaps not technically required (as with air travel, ID is not required according to some extreme libertarians), ID is a reasonable expectation for voting in my view. Yes, exceptions maybe should be allowed in rare circumstances.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16454
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:05 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
The system where a voter identifies himself or herself is adequate, as long as the fraud rate is tracked and dealt with.


This - is what sanity and sound reasoning sounds like on this issue.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:07 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
The system where a voter identifies himself or herself is adequate, as long as the fraud rate is tracked and dealt with.


This - is what sanity and sound reasoning sounds like on this issue.



This is what the previously existing system has always been. The new requirements are ways to continue to marginalize people that were the victims of bad laws 55-90 years ago.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16454
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:10 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
The system where a voter identifies himself or herself is adequate, as long as the fraud rate is tracked and dealt with.


This - is what sanity and sound reasoning sounds like on this issue.



This is what the previously existing system has always been. The new requirements are ways to continue to marginalize people that were the victims of bad laws 55-90 years ago.


As a practical matter, I would still like our Texas members to explain how it is sensible and not ill-intentioned to require counties with 4 million residents to run their drop boxes in the same manner as counties with 60,000.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24068
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:20 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
School IDs are issued by individual schools, not the state Department of State or equivalent. School IDs simply identify students at that school. To start, they are missing all of the verification and registration with various records systems. This is a really strange hill for you to try conquer. It is accepted by almost everyone that a school ID is not a valid Government issued ID. I suppose schools could come into compliance with the Real ID Act, but it is probably a lot more easy to just tell students to get an ID from their state.


And the same information states use for state issued ID is on file at state schools.


Again, the school doesn't verify anything. I never gave my birth certificate, social security card, utility bills, lease or anything else to a college. All they got was my transcripts, application, money, and a copy of my government issues ID. They used my drivers license to verify my identity! All the school cares about is if the student is registered there. School IDs are not even remotely close to a Government issues ID.


A copy of your government issued ID? But they don't verify anything? But they have your ID? And you can't use your student ID when they know full well who you are? hmmmmm.....
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24068
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:22 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
I don’t have a big problem with voter ID.


Nobody does. The problem comes with arbitrary rules set up by one side to limit who can vote, where, and when. They then flip it around and start saying "liberals" don't want ID to vote. Which is a lie. Everybody wants secure elections. One side wants to be the only ones to get elected.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:35 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

This - is what sanity and sound reasoning sounds like on this issue.



This is what the previously existing system has always been. The new requirements are ways to continue to marginalize people that were the victims of bad laws 55-90 years ago.


As a practical matter, I would still like our Texas members to explain how it is sensible and not ill-intentioned to require counties with 4 million residents to run their drop boxes in the same manner as counties with 60,000.



That's another thread we will probably see soon. This one amazes me that a judge let this fly through as it ignores county size and population.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:02 pm

seb146 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
I don’t have a big problem with voter ID.


Nobody does. The problem comes with arbitrary rules set up by one side to limit who can vote, where, and when. They then flip it around and start saying "liberals" don't want ID to vote. Which is a lie. Everybody wants secure elections. One side wants to be the only ones to get elected.


Do you really think the left doesn't want to also be the only ones elected? If so I have a some property in Arizona to sell you.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16454
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:05 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
I don’t have a big problem with voter ID.


Nobody does. The problem comes with arbitrary rules set up by one side to limit who can vote, where, and when. They then flip it around and start saying "liberals" don't want ID to vote. Which is a lie. Everybody wants secure elections. One side wants to be the only ones to get elected.


Do you really think the left doesn't want to also be the only ones elected? If so I have a some property in Arizona to sell you.


In heart of hearts? Sure, that's only human. But at the end of the day, they're not hiring crisis actors to testify to voter fraud that never happened and filling courts and state houses with sham audits.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:09 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Nobody does. The problem comes with arbitrary rules set up by one side to limit who can vote, where, and when. They then flip it around and start saying "liberals" don't want ID to vote. Which is a lie. Everybody wants secure elections. One side wants to be the only ones to get elected.


Do you really think the left doesn't want to also be the only ones elected? If so I have a some property in Arizona to sell you.


In heart of hearts? Sure, that's only human. But at the end of the day, they're not hiring crisis actors to testify to voter fraud that never happened and filling courts and state houses with sham audits.


Anyone that runs for office wants to be elected. Let them be judged on the merits of their ideas and plans, not by how many people that can be kept from voting.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24068
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Voter ID Law Blocked in North Carolina

Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:56 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
I don’t have a big problem with voter ID.


Nobody does. The problem comes with arbitrary rules set up by one side to limit who can vote, where, and when. They then flip it around and start saying "liberals" don't want ID to vote. Which is a lie. Everybody wants secure elections. One side wants to be the only ones to get elected.


Do you really think the left doesn't want to also be the only ones elected? If so I have a some property in Arizona to sell you.


That's why "the left" has an actual agenda laid out. They have an actual plan to sell The American People. Things like infrastructure bills and voting rights bills and student debt bills. The Republican plan? Cancel voting.

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