lightsaber wrote:

Noris wrote:

DocLightning wrote:

Why have smoke detectors if your house will never burn down?

You never know when you will encounter it and once you do, it is far too late to get vaccinated.

Do you know how many patients I've told they have COVID and suddenly they ask if they can get the vaccine? That's not how it works.

As for me, I just had my third dose. Within about a week I'll be able to have a full-on superspreader cough in my face and almost certainly won't get sick. The cost of this? My arm hurts today.

DocLightning, my arm hurts today as well after my booster jab and I have to say this is one of the best posts I have read on any of these forums recently. I hope that people read it and inwardly absorb.

I have lost a family member in their seventies to Covid, and two work colleagues, one in their fifties and one in their thirties. None of them had any underlying conditions.

I implore people to get vaccinated and get a booster jab if you can - not doing so is madness.

Rgds.

My condolences on your losses. I lost a coworker (unhealthy, age 65). My daughter lost a young (age 10) healthy classmate and the child's late 30s father succumbed and I know a healthy 15 year old who passed away.

I personally am boosted. I'm having to persuade friend by friend to boost. My older child has been vaccinated for 5 months, the younger will get the 2nd jab late in the Thanksgiving holiday.

I personally am getting out more thanks to the younger one being jabbed (I read a few journal papers and that age does better with one jab than my age with two).

What I notice is few wear masks. Exposure will be with a higher viral load. That means the unvaxed are going to be in trouble.

I feel for my friends with younger kids. They are quite concerned they cannot vaccinate them.

Lightsaber

Noris wrote:

I'm looking forward to the end of this pandemic, although at this rate, I don't think it's going to be anytime soon.... 2023 at best, maybe?

Noris wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Noris wrote:

DocLightning, my arm hurts today as well after my booster jab and I have to say this is one of the best posts I have read on any of these forums recently. I hope that people read it and inwardly absorb.

I have lost a family member in their seventies to Covid, and two work colleagues, one in their fifties and one in their thirties. None of them had any underlying conditions.

I implore people to get vaccinated and get a booster jab if you can - not doing so is madness.

Rgds.

My condolences on your losses. I lost a coworker (unhealthy, age 65). My daughter lost a young (age 10) healthy classmate and the child's late 30s father succumbed and I know a healthy 15 year old who passed away.

I personally am boosted. I'm having to persuade friend by friend to boost. My older child has been vaccinated for 5 months, the younger will get the 2nd jab late in the Thanksgiving holiday.

I personally am getting out more thanks to the younger one being jabbed (I read a few journal papers and that age does better with one jab than my age with two).

What I notice is few wear masks. Exposure will be with a higher viral load. That means the unvaxed are going to be in trouble.

I feel for my friends with younger kids. They are quite concerned they cannot vaccinate them.

Lightsaber

Lightsaber - Thank you for your condolences, they are appreciated. I send the same to you.

A member of my household is undergoing TKI (Tyrosine Kinase Inhibiting) therapy for a GIST so we were shielding for the first part of the pandemic until around February 2021, at this point we'd all had a jab and cases were falling. After our second jabs around May, we all started doing some of the things we did before the pandemic started, going out shopping and so on, although much less often, and always wearing a mask. Now we are all boosted and a week or two down the line, we'll probably start to increase the frequency with which we do this.

As you state, most people no longer wear masks, even though it's a simple and painless way to prevent and reduce transmission. I don't understand the selfish mentality of some people with their point blank refusals to wear one. Fortunately for the unvaccinated (and everybody else), mandatory vaccination is coming to the EU - likely sooner rather than later. Indirect mandatory vaccination is coming to the UK as well if you want to go abroad on holiday.

A few people I know have unvaccinated teenage and slightly younger kids, most of them have ended up with Covid and it has spread through their households quickly, with all of them having to isolate at some point. Luckily, the adults were double jabbed and recovered and so did the children, not all of them quickly though.

I'm looking forward to the end of this pandemic, although at this rate, I don't think it's going to be anytime soon.... 2023 at best, maybe?

Rgds.

art wrote:

Noris wrote:

I'm looking forward to the end of this pandemic, although at this rate, I don't think it's going to be anytime soon.... 2023 at best, maybe?

I fear that this disease will remain a serious problem in many parts of the world for a long, long time due to a lack of near universal vaccination. I also fear that the virus will evolve to produce forms that are either more contagious or result in more serious disease or both. My greatest fear is that it evolves into forms that produce serious disease in people hitherto protected by vaccination since that would undermine our best practical defence in our battle against this virus.

What is the position on herd immunity? Any signs of that appearing anywhere?
-

lightsaber wrote:

Europe has approved the child's Pfizer vaccine (ages 5 to 11):
https://www.cnet.com/health/eus-drug-re ... -children/

In Ireland, the age 5 years to 11 years are the age group with the most infections. Although the claim is mostly from the community and families, not the schools:
https://www.independent.ie/news/tony-ho ... 76476.html

In Southern California, age 5 to 11 children are now 27% of the confirmed cases. Note, I disagree with much of the "tone" of the article as at work its pretty obvious who wants the vaccines and who doesn't. My department is only very senior engineers and we're 100% boosted, much less not worrying about getting vaccinated. Oh well, as a Federal contractor, not a concern for much longer.
https://www.ocregister.com/2021/11/21/c ... -bay-area/

c933103 wrote:

By the way, is there any research on vaccine's effect on long covid?

T4thH wrote:

c933103 wrote:

By the way, is there any research on vaccine's effect on long covid?

What I have seen, if you are vaccinated, the chance, to get long covid after a SARS COV 2 infection is minimal. So, the COVID infection stays a upper respiratory tract infection and did not get systemic (so it is just a cold).
If you have long covid and then get the vaccination, there seems to be an around 10 % chance, that you will recover earlier from long covid.

There is a treatment against long covid (BC 007), still in early stage of development/clinical trials against Glaucoma. Also Glaucoma is an autoimmune disease, there are the same autoimmune proteins found in long covid.
It was identified at the University Hospital in Erlangen, (first around 20 patients have now already received the treatment, the results of the first four treated is published); one i75 min infusion, all patients got complete long covid symptom free in less than 3 weeks (even in less than one week, there is an approvement to more or less to normal), first results were seen after few hours already, also blood cells got normal again and autoimmune proteins have disappeared and it can also be checked in the eyes, that everything is back to normal.
This was the nice part and now the bad news. BC 007 is in early stage of clinical trials, even safety data are not avaiblable. It will need years, till it will get the approvals.

Some sources (all in German, use your Google translator):
https://www.uk-erlangen.de/presse/pressemitteilungen/ansicht/detail/medikament-gegen-autoantikoerper-hilft-bei-long-covid/
https://www.fau.de/2021/09/news/wissenschaft/65-millionen-euro-vom-bmbf-fuer-long-covid-forschung/
https://www.nordbayern.de/region/heilerfolge-bei-long-covid-testpersonen-fur-erlanger-studie-gesucht-1.11422298
https://www.srf.ch/wissen/corona/coronavirus-long-covid-es-gibt-hoffnung-auf-heilung
https://www.uk-erlangen.de/presse/pressemitteilungen/ansicht/detail/long-covid-medikament-hilfe-fuer-weitere-betroffene/

c933103 wrote:

T4thH wrote:

c933103 wrote:

By the way, is there any research on vaccine's effect on long covid?

What I have seen, if you are vaccinated, the chance, to get long covid after a SARS COV 2 infection is minimal. So, the COVID infection stays a upper respiratory tract infection and did not get systemic (so it is just a cold).
If you have long covid and then get the vaccination, there seems to be an around 10 % chance, that you will recover earlier from long covid.

There is a treatment against long covid (BC 007), still in early stage of development/clinical trials against Glaucoma. Also Glaucoma is an autoimmune disease, there are the same autoimmune proteins found in long covid.
It was identified at the University Hospital in Erlangen, (first around 20 patients have now already received the treatment, the results of the first four treated is published); one i75 min infusion, all patients got complete long covid symptom free in less than 3 weeks (even in less than one week, there is an approvement to more or less to normal), first results were seen after few hours already, also blood cells got normal again and autoimmune proteins have disappeared and it can also be checked in the eyes, that everything is back to normal.
This was the nice part and now the bad news. BC 007 is in early stage of clinical trials, even safety data are not avaiblable. It will need years, till it will get the approvals.

Some sources (all in German, use your Google translator):
https://www.uk-erlangen.de/presse/pressemitteilungen/ansicht/detail/medikament-gegen-autoantikoerper-hilft-bei-long-covid/
https://www.fau.de/2021/09/news/wissenschaft/65-millionen-euro-vom-bmbf-fuer-long-covid-forschung/
https://www.nordbayern.de/region/heilerfolge-bei-long-covid-testpersonen-fur-erlanger-studie-gesucht-1.11422298
https://www.srf.ch/wissen/corona/coronavirus-long-covid-es-gibt-hoffnung-auf-heilung
https://www.uk-erlangen.de/presse/pressemitteilungen/ansicht/detail/long-covid-medikament-hilfe-fuer-weitere-betroffene/

Wait, isn't COVID-19, even regardless of vaccination status, mostly a lower respiratory tract infection?

Kent350787 wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Europe has approved the child's Pfizer vaccine (ages 5 to 11):
https://www.cnet.com/health/eus-drug-re ... -children/

In Ireland, the age 5 years to 11 years are the age group with the most infections. Although the claim is mostly from the community and families, not the schools:
https://www.independent.ie/news/tony-ho ... 76476.html

In Southern California, age 5 to 11 children are now 27% of the confirmed cases. Note, I disagree with much of the "tone" of the article as at work its pretty obvious who wants the vaccines and who doesn't. My department is only very senior engineers and we're 100% boosted, much less not worrying about getting vaccinated. Oh well, as a Federal contractor, not a concern for much longer.
https://www.ocregister.com/2021/11/21/c ... -bay-area/

In NSW, Australia, 0-11yo are approx. a third of new cases - vaccination is not currently availble for this group. A little over 20% of cases are from amongst the 6.4% of the 12+ population who are unvaccinated. Almost a third of cases are from amongst the 91% of the 12+ population with two (a tiny number 3) doses. Around 5% of cases are from the 3.4% of the 12+ population with a single dose.

Around 75% of the total population is fully vaccinated. Almost 70% of current cases are being identified in the 25% of the population not fully vaccinated.

Also, no fully vaccinated person under 80yo has died of Covid in the last month.

lightsaber wrote:

Kent350787 wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Europe has approved the child's Pfizer vaccine (ages 5 to 11):
https://www.cnet.com/health/eus-drug-re ... -children/

In Ireland, the age 5 years to 11 years are the age group with the most infections. Although the claim is mostly from the community and families, not the schools:
https://www.independent.ie/news/tony-ho ... 76476.html

In Southern California, age 5 to 11 children are now 27% of the confirmed cases. Note, I disagree with much of the "tone" of the article as at work its pretty obvious who wants the vaccines and who doesn't. My department is only very senior engineers and we're 100% boosted, much less not worrying about getting vaccinated. Oh well, as a Federal contractor, not a concern for much longer.
https://www.ocregister.com/2021/11/21/c ... -bay-area/

In NSW, Australia, 0-11yo are approx. a third of new cases - vaccination is not currently availble for this group. A little over 20% of cases are from amongst the 6.4% of the 12+ population who are unvaccinated. Almost a third of cases are from amongst the 91% of the 12+ population with two (a tiny number 3) doses. Around 5% of cases are from the 3.4% of the 12+ population with a single dose.

Around 75% of the total population is fully vaccinated. Almost 70% of current cases are being identified in the 25% of the population not fully vaccinated.

Also, no fully vaccinated person under 80yo has died of Covid in the last month.

Very interesting information. Do you have a link? Breakthroughs are expected, in particular from sick children to parents (who doesn't hug a sick child?).

The vaccines work very well. Not perfectly, but well enough. If we can vaccinate the portions of the population with the majority of cases and boost the rest, we'll get through this.

Lightsaber

Late edit:
I found a link stating only 3% of those in Australia ICUs were vaccinated:
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/c ... es-2299996

63% of cases unvaccinated.

The report's findings were in line with data from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which said in September that unvaccinated individuals were 11 times more likely to die from COVID-19 than those who were fully vaccinated.


Vaccines are working.

art wrote:

There is a new variant detected in South Africa which is causing alarm. I hope we are not going to shut travel down again.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-59427770

c933103 wrote:

art wrote:

There is a new variant detected in South Africa which is causing alarm. I hope we are not going to shut travel down again.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-59427770

There are already announcements like "anyone who have been to these countries in the past 3 weeks, even vaccinated nationals, cannot enter the border"

But why in the thread about vaccine?

Also, we still have no information on strength of this variant.

art wrote:

c933103 wrote:

art wrote:

There is a new variant detected in South Africa which is causing alarm. I hope we are not going to shut travel down again.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-59427770

There are already announcements like "anyone who have been to these countries in the past 3 weeks, even vaccinated nationals, cannot enter the border"

But why in the thread about vaccine?

Also, we still have no information on strength of this variant.

Sorry if I posted incorrectly. The concern seems to be that people vaccinated with existing vaccines may be less protected from this variant.

c933103 wrote:

art wrote:

There is a new variant detected in South Africa which is causing alarm. I hope we are not going to shut travel down again.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-59427770

There are already announcements like "anyone who have been to these countries in the past 3 weeks, even vaccinated nationals, cannot enter the border"

But why in the thread about vaccine?

Also, we still have no information on strength of this variant.

StarAC17 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

art wrote:

There is a new variant detected in South Africa which is causing alarm. I hope we are not going to shut travel down again.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-59427770

There are already announcements like "anyone who have been to these countries in the past 3 weeks, even vaccinated nationals, cannot enter the border"

But why in the thread about vaccine?

Also, we still have no information on strength of this variant.

We don't and that is important.

I get that restricting travel will slow it down but its a good chance that this is basically everywhere already. Unless there is genealogical testing on every positive test (there isn't) once the variant is discovered it has probably been in most places.

Its up to natural selection on whether this variant has the evolutionary advantage to usurp delta as the dominant strain.

LNCS0930 wrote:

StarAC17 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

There are already announcements like "anyone who have been to these countries in the past 3 weeks, even vaccinated nationals, cannot enter the border"

But why in the thread about vaccine?

Also, we still have no information on strength of this variant.

We don't and that is important.

I get that restricting travel will slow it down but its a good chance that this is basically everywhere already. Unless there is genealogical testing on every positive test (there isn't) once the variant is discovered it has probably been in most places.

Its up to natural selection on whether this variant has the evolutionary advantage to usurp delta as the dominant strain.

It’s likely already in way more places than they think.

acavpics wrote:

Who's ready for weeks of media freak-out over this new variant?
Remember the hype about the mu variant a couple months ago? Oh wait. Nothing happened there.
Rinse, repeat. Rinse, repeat.

art wrote:

On CNN Moderna and AstraZeneca are reported to be investigating the effectiveness of their vaccines against the omicron variant.

How long might it take to tweak the most tweakable vaccines and to get them into production if that is seen as necessary?

Pi7472000 wrote:

If the vaccines are not effective with this variant we will need travel lockdowns and lockdowns in general until they can develop a vaccine that is safe and effective against this new variant. We will need to follow the science, data and facts coming out of South Africa to make quick decisions to slow the spread and save lives. Let’s hope the vaccines and boosters can be modified quickly.

lightsaber wrote:

Kent350787 wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Europe has approved the child's Pfizer vaccine (ages 5 to 11):
https://www.cnet.com/health/eus-drug-re ... -children/

In Ireland, the age 5 years to 11 years are the age group with the most infections. Although the claim is mostly from the community and families, not the schools:
https://www.independent.ie/news/tony-ho ... 76476.html

In Southern California, age 5 to 11 children are now 27% of the confirmed cases. Note, I disagree with much of the "tone" of the article as at work its pretty obvious who wants the vaccines and who doesn't. My department is only very senior engineers and we're 100% boosted, much less not worrying about getting vaccinated. Oh well, as a Federal contractor, not a concern for much longer.
https://www.ocregister.com/2021/11/21/c ... -bay-area/

In NSW, Australia, 0-11yo are approx. a third of new cases - vaccination is not currently availble for this group. A little over 20% of cases are from amongst the 6.4% of the 12+ population who are unvaccinated. Almost a third of cases are from amongst the 91% of the 12+ population with two (a tiny number 3) doses. Around 5% of cases are from the 3.4% of the 12+ population with a single dose.

Around 75% of the total population is fully vaccinated. Almost 70% of current cases are being identified in the 25% of the population not fully vaccinated.

Also, no fully vaccinated person under 80yo has died of Covid in the last month.

Very interesting information. Do you have a link? Breakthroughs are expected, in particular from sick children to parents (who doesn't hug a sick child?).

The vaccines work very well. Not perfectly, but well enough. If we can vaccinate the portions of the population with the majority of cases and boost the rest, we'll get through this.

Lightsaber

Late edit:
I found a link stating only 3% of those in Australia ICUs were vaccinated:
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/c ... es-2299996

63% of cases unvaccinated.

The report's findings were in line with data from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which said in September that unvaccinated individuals were 11 times more likely to die from COVID-19 than those who were fully vaccinated.


Vaccines are working.

art wrote:

There is a new variant detected in South Africa which is causing alarm. I hope we are not going to shut travel down again.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-59427770

OA260 wrote:

Sky News reporting that 61 passengers on a flight from SA to Netherlands have tested positive and are in isolation.

OA260 wrote:

art wrote:

There is a new variant detected in South Africa which is causing alarm. I hope we are not going to shut travel down again.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-59427770

Sky News reporting that 61 passengers on a flight from SA to Netherlands have tested positive and are in isolation.

Alfons wrote:

OA260 wrote:

Sky News reporting that 61 passengers on a flight from SA to Netherlands have tested positive and are in isolation.

Would have been actually nice to get the info as well how many of those ones are already vaccinated... .

Kent350787 wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Kent350787 wrote:

In NSW, Australia, 0-11yo are approx. a third of new cases - vaccination is not currently availble for this group. A little over 20% of cases are from amongst the 6.4% of the 12+ population who are unvaccinated. Almost a third of cases are from amongst the 91% of the 12+ population with two (a tiny number 3) doses. Around 5% of cases are from the 3.4% of the 12+ population with a single dose.

Around 75% of the total population is fully vaccinated. Almost 70% of current cases are being identified in the 25% of the population not fully vaccinated.

Also, no fully vaccinated person under 80yo has died of Covid in the last month.

Very interesting information. Do you have a link? Breakthroughs are expected, in particular from sick children to parents (who doesn't hug a sick child?).

The vaccines work very well. Not perfectly, but well enough. If we can vaccinate the portions of the population with the majority of cases and boost the rest, we'll get through this.

Lightsaber

Late edit:
I found a link stating only 3% of those in Australia ICUs were vaccinated:
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/c ... es-2299996

63% of cases unvaccinated.

The report's findings were in line with data from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which said in September that unvaccinated individuals were 11 times more likely to die from COVID-19 than those who were fully vaccinated.


Vaccines are working.

The latest NSW case surveillance report is here https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectiou ... 211113.pdf

The most accessible front end for vaccination rates is here https://covidlive.com.au/nsw Covidlive was developed by a group of teens, but harnesses data fomr official sources around the country, adding algorithms to predict vax rate dates. vax rates have slowed in the last week, and 51 days to reach 95% 12+ vaxxed does unfotunately seem correct. although it's 91.47% today.

I can't find a reporting source for whole population vax rates, but it has been flagged in official daily updates a couple of times a week.

Pellegrine wrote:

Pi7472000 wrote:

If the vaccines are not effective with this variant we will need travel lockdowns and lockdowns in general until they can develop a vaccine that is safe and effective against this new variant. We will need to follow the science, data and facts coming out of South Africa to make quick decisions to slow the spread and save lives. Let’s hope the vaccines and boosters can be modified quickly.

I'm ready to lock down again. I have a guest in my home who is leaving Sunday, after that it's clink clink lockdown. I WFH, so I'm good. My quarantine measures were so good I was never exposed to COVID before being vaccinated (I tested multiple times negative for antibodies). Now I'm 3x Moderna (the best vaccine IMO). I had travel planned for January and February, but that looks iffy.

yonahleung wrote:

Pellegrine wrote:

Pfizer is saying that it takes around 100 days to produce a vaccine targeting a new variant. So it won't be long till we have a variant specific vaccine as booster.

lightsaber wrote:

I'm not a viral expert, but it is very unlikely the T-cells won't still work Bummer on the antibodies as the article notes this variant probably evolved in a HIV patient where the virus had months of forced evolution (my words) with all the anti-bodies its seen. Unfortunately, we probably have an anti-body resistant variant. That means natural and vaccine immunity will be less.

DocLightning wrote:

Not only that, but initial reports is that cases with this new variant have been mild. Vaccinated people often don't even have symptoms.

I hope this is going to wind up being a bit of a tempest in a teacup.

For now, get your vaccines. Get your third doses. I think that's the biggest thing you can do.

Francoflier wrote:

DocLightning wrote:

Not only that, but initial reports is that cases with this new variant have been mild. Vaccinated people often don't even have symptoms.

I hope this is going to wind up being a bit of a tempest in a teacup.

For now, get your vaccines. Get your third doses. I think that's the biggest thing you can do.

Do the many genetic mutations mean that normal Covid testing is less effective at finding it?
The large proportion of Omicron cases in SA seems to indicate that it has been circulating there for a while.

Kent350787 wrote:

Wow, 17% in the elderly is super low, even by world standards. Here in NSW over 95% of 70yo+ are fully vaccinated.

I hope the mandates are successful. I hear anecdotes of people in Australia getting vaccinated so they aren’t excluded from the local pub.

StarAC17 wrote:

art wrote:

How long does it take to develop a vaccine targeted at a particular variant and to produce billions of doses from the time it is identified as a variant of concern? Can it be done fast enough to seriously mitigate the effect of new, more contagious/virulent strains? I don't know but we might end up producing a vast amount of vaccine too late for it to be greatly beneficial. Indeed, the variant concerned might already be outperformed by a newer variant by the time the booster for the older version is available in large volumes.

On the tack of a booster, double vaccination reduces hospitalisation and death by a massive amount in people who nevertheless become infected. So why not just let them catch COVID-19? I understand that infection boosts antibody levels greatly. To me it would be better to get everyone in the world double vaccinated before adminstering a third dose. I believe that transmission is the most likely scenario for mutation of the virus ergo limiting transmission everywhere will give the most benefit to all us earthlings.

Development is easy but IIRC it would have to go through trials that would hold it up from being deployed to the masses right away. That would take six months or longer.

Odds are that the virus will become less virulent over time and 18 months is a long time to us but not for evolution, its next to nothing. However the less sick a virus makes its host the more successful its going to be.

It's hard to pinpoint whether it is in fact more virulent because there are so many factors at play. It's infecting children at a higher rate but it that because of the strain or the fact that children are the only demographic that hasn't been vaccinated.

In terms of the booster I agree, let those who have had two shots get the virus infected and get the booster from that. Long haul symptoms may be an issue to not permit this but then we need a better vaccine or treatments to combat this which the latter is lacking. Not everyone can get regeneron on the notice of a positive test like Joe Rogan did.

It makes my blood boil that the experts and media don't speak about natural immunity when studies show its robust. While vaccination does provide protection your body only recognizes the spike protein which can change but usually not enough to completely stamp out any immunity but the clock is ticking much faster as now there is evolutionary pressure on the spike protein to mutate to evade immunity. Natural infection would teach your body to recognize the whole virus and you would have more protection from it as the virus can change one protein or texture but can't change them all at once. Add in vaccination and you face minimal risk of severe illness from Covid. I theorize this happens for other infections all of the time you just don't get sick from the re-infection and unless you are tested you wouldn't know. There are probably thousands if not millions of people who are vaccinated for Covid, got the infection, showed no symptoms and never got tested and were none the wiser.

Public Health won't do this because it will create a surge on hospitals as vaccination rates aren't high enough but this is what the UK seems to be doing. Also the need for 3rd doses in the west is western greed, I stand by this opinion 100% and the US needs to get the rest of their population to get dose 1 before offering dose 3 to healthy people.

We know this crisis isn't over for anyone until its over for everyone and some people may need 3rd doses but not everyone. The US and especially Israel talking about a bi-annual shot while Asia and Africa have low rates is not constructive to end this pandemic especially if a variant comes along that renders the vaccines useless and we are back to March 2020 again.

Do any of you think the public is going to take that nicely? I see mass civil unrest and blame pointed right at the experts if this happens.

stratosphere wrote:

StarAC17 wrote:

art wrote:

How long does it take to develop a vaccine targeted at a particular variant and to produce billions of doses from the time it is identified as a variant of concern? Can it be done fast enough to seriously mitigate the effect of new, more contagious/virulent strains? I don't know but we might end up producing a vast amount of vaccine too late for it to be greatly beneficial. Indeed, the variant concerned might already be outperformed by a newer variant by the time the booster for the older version is available in large volumes.

On the tack of a booster, double vaccination reduces hospitalisation and death by a massive amount in people who nevertheless become infected. So why not just let them catch COVID-19? I understand that infection boosts antibody levels greatly. To me it would be better to get everyone in the world double vaccinated before adminstering a third dose. I believe that transmission is the most likely scenario for mutation of the virus ergo limiting transmission everywhere will give the most benefit to all us earthlings.

Development is easy but IIRC it would have to go through trials that would hold it up from being deployed to the masses right away. That would take six months or longer.

Odds are that the virus will become less virulent over time and 18 months is a long time to us but not for evolution, its next to nothing. However the less sick a virus makes its host the more successful its going to be.

It's hard to pinpoint whether it is in fact more virulent because there are so many factors at play. It's infecting children at a higher rate but it that because of the strain or the fact that children are the only demographic that hasn't been vaccinated.

In terms of the booster I agree, let those who have had two shots get the virus infected and get the booster from that. Long haul symptoms may be an issue to not permit this but then we need a better vaccine or treatments to combat this which the latter is lacking. Not everyone can get regeneron on the notice of a positive test like Joe Rogan did.

It makes my blood boil that the experts and media don't speak about natural immunity when studies show its robust. While vaccination does provide protection your body only recognizes the spike protein which can change but usually not enough to completely stamp out any immunity but the clock is ticking much faster as now there is evolutionary pressure on the spike protein to mutate to evade immunity. Natural infection would teach your body to recognize the whole virus and you would have more protection from it as the virus can change one protein or texture but can't change them all at once. Add in vaccination and you face minimal risk of severe illness from Covid. I theorize this happens for other infections all of the time you just don't get sick from the re-infection and unless you are tested you wouldn't know. There are probably thousands if not millions of people who are vaccinated for Covid, got the infection, showed no symptoms and never got tested and were none the wiser.

Public Health won't do this because it will create a surge on hospitals as vaccination rates aren't high enough but this is what the UK seems to be doing. Also the need for 3rd doses in the west is western greed, I stand by this opinion 100% and the US needs to get the rest of their population to get dose 1 before offering dose 3 to healthy people.

We know this crisis isn't over for anyone until its over for everyone and some people may need 3rd doses but not everyone. The US and especially Israel talking about a bi-annual shot while Asia and Africa have low rates is not constructive to end this pandemic especially if a variant comes along that renders the vaccines useless and we are back to March 2020 again.

Do any of you think the public is going to take that nicely? I see mass civil unrest and blame pointed right at the experts if this happens.

The experts and media not recognizing natural immunity makes me suspect of all of it. Now we have a new variant of concern and Pfizer and Moderna are rushing to tweak their vaccines to the new variant.

So what does this mean? We have to get a boost to the new variants that come out every other month? We need to stop chasing these vaccines and go with and invest more in therapeutics that go after and blocks the effects and keeps it from replicating and causing chaos in the body which will cover any variant that comes along.

My distrust of government and big pharma and chasing the all mighty dollar makes me wary of motives at this point.

stratosphere wrote:

So what does this mean? We have to get a boost to the new variants that come out every other month? We need to stop chasing these vaccines and go with and invest more in therapeutics that go after and blocks the effects and keeps it from replicating and causing chaos in the body which will cover any variant that comes along.

My distrust of government and big pharma and chasing the all mighty dollar makes me wary of motives at this point.

stratosphere wrote:

StarAC17 wrote:

art wrote:

How long does it take to develop a vaccine targeted at a particular variant and to produce billions of doses from the time it is identified as a variant of concern? Can it be done fast enough to seriously mitigate the effect of new, more contagious/virulent strains? I don't know but we might end up producing a vast amount of vaccine too late for it to be greatly beneficial. Indeed, the variant concerned might already be outperformed by a newer variant by the time the booster for the older version is available in large volumes.

On the tack of a booster, double vaccination reduces hospitalisation and death by a massive amount in people who nevertheless become infected. So why not just let them catch COVID-19? I understand that infection boosts antibody levels greatly. To me it would be better to get everyone in the world double vaccinated before adminstering a third dose. I believe that transmission is the most likely scenario for mutation of the virus ergo limiting transmission everywhere will give the most benefit to all us earthlings.

Development is easy but IIRC it would have to go through trials that would hold it up from being deployed to the masses right away. That would take six months or longer.

Odds are that the virus will become less virulent over time and 18 months is a long time to us but not for evolution, its next to nothing. However the less sick a virus makes its host the more successful its going to be.

It's hard to pinpoint whether it is in fact more virulent because there are so many factors at play. It's infecting children at a higher rate but it that because of the strain or the fact that children are the only demographic that hasn't been vaccinated.

In terms of the booster I agree, let those who have had two shots get the virus infected and get the booster from that. Long haul symptoms may be an issue to not permit this but then we need a better vaccine or treatments to combat this which the latter is lacking. Not everyone can get regeneron on the notice of a positive test like Joe Rogan did.

It makes my blood boil that the experts and media don't speak about natural immunity when studies show its robust. While vaccination does provide protection your body only recognizes the spike protein which can change but usually not enough to completely stamp out any immunity but the clock is ticking much faster as now there is evolutionary pressure on the spike protein to mutate to evade immunity. Natural infection would teach your body to recognize the whole virus and you would have more protection from it as the virus can change one protein or texture but can't change them all at once. Add in vaccination and you face minimal risk of severe illness from Covid. I theorize this happens for other infections all of the time you just don't get sick from the re-infection and unless you are tested you wouldn't know. There are probably thousands if not millions of people who are vaccinated for Covid, got the infection, showed no symptoms and never got tested and were none the wiser.

Public Health won't do this because it will create a surge on hospitals as vaccination rates aren't high enough but this is what the UK seems to be doing. Also the need for 3rd doses in the west is western greed, I stand by this opinion 100% and the US needs to get the rest of their population to get dose 1 before offering dose 3 to healthy people.

We know this crisis isn't over for anyone until its over for everyone and some people may need 3rd doses but not everyone. The US and especially Israel talking about a bi-annual shot while Asia and Africa have low rates is not constructive to end this pandemic especially if a variant comes along that renders the vaccines useless and we are back to March 2020 again.

Do any of you think the public is going to take that nicely? I see mass civil unrest and blame pointed right at the experts if this happens.

The experts and media not recognizing natural immunity makes me suspect of all of it. Now we have a new variant of concern and Pfizer and Moderna are rushing to tweak their vaccines to the new variant.

So what does this mean? We have to get a boost to the new variants that come out every other month? We need to stop chasing these vaccines and go with and invest more in therapeutics that go after and blocks the effects and keeps it from replicating and causing chaos in the body which will cover any variant that comes along.

My distrust of government and big pharma and chasing the all mighty dollar makes me wary of motives at this point.

lightsaber wrote:

stratosphere wrote:

StarAC17 wrote:

Development is easy but IIRC it would have to go through trials that would hold it up from being deployed to the masses right away. That would take six months or longer.

Odds are that the virus will become less virulent over time and 18 months is a long time to us but not for evolution, its next to nothing. However the less sick a virus makes its host the more successful its going to be.

It's hard to pinpoint whether it is in fact more virulent because there are so many factors at play. It's infecting children at a higher rate but it that because of the strain or the fact that children are the only demographic that hasn't been vaccinated.

In terms of the booster I agree, let those who have had two shots get the virus infected and get the booster from that. Long haul symptoms may be an issue to not permit this but then we need a better vaccine or treatments to combat this which the latter is lacking. Not everyone can get regeneron on the notice of a positive test like Joe Rogan did.

It makes my blood boil that the experts and media don't speak about natural immunity when studies show its robust. While vaccination does provide protection your body only recognizes the spike protein which can change but usually not enough to completely stamp out any immunity but the clock is ticking much faster as now there is evolutionary pressure on the spike protein to mutate to evade immunity. Natural infection would teach your body to recognize the whole virus and you would have more protection from it as the virus can change one protein or texture but can't change them all at once. Add in vaccination and you face minimal risk of severe illness from Covid. I theorize this happens for other infections all of the time you just don't get sick from the re-infection and unless you are tested you wouldn't know. There are probably thousands if not millions of people who are vaccinated for Covid, got the infection, showed no symptoms and never got tested and were none the wiser.

Public Health won't do this because it will create a surge on hospitals as vaccination rates aren't high enough but this is what the UK seems to be doing. Also the need for 3rd doses in the west is western greed, I stand by this opinion 100% and the US needs to get the rest of their population to get dose 1 before offering dose 3 to healthy people.

We know this crisis isn't over for anyone until its over for everyone and some people may need 3rd doses but not everyone. The US and especially Israel talking about a bi-annual shot while Asia and Africa have low rates is not constructive to end this pandemic especially if a variant comes along that renders the vaccines useless and we are back to March 2020 again.

Do any of you think the public is going to take that nicely? I see mass civil unrest and blame pointed right at the experts if this happens.

The experts and media not recognizing natural immunity makes me suspect of all of it. Now we have a new variant of concern and Pfizer and Moderna are rushing to tweak their vaccines to the new variant.

So what does this mean? We have to get a boost to the new variants that come out every other month? We need to stop chasing these vaccines and go with and invest more in therapeutics that go after and blocks the effects and keeps it from replicating and causing chaos in the body which will cover any variant that comes along.

My distrust of government and big pharma and chasing the all mighty dollar makes me wary of motives at this point.

Vaccines are the lowest cost solution. They are cheap versus the therapeutics that work. The NIH does the best job of investigating options:
https://covid19.nih.gov/treatments-and- ... treatments

Treatments:
https://combatcovid.hhs.gov/possible-tr ... s-covid-19

Be careful what you suggest. e.g., Invectromin has really nasty side effects: https://covid19.nih.gov/news-and-storie ... -and-lives

There are tons of studies going on for alternatives, the issue is other treatments only have a few day window to keep people out of the hospitals:
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04885530

If you worry about Pharma profits, just take AZ. The vaccines have done an incredible job reducing the strain on the hospitals. Vaccines reduce transmission 40% (note, I believe than numbers I previously posted are higher as this includes some less effective vaccines):
https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/vaccines ... 50945.html

Historically, vaccines are the lowest cost solution. Since 40% of Covid19 survivors have long haul symptoms, you really don't want natural immunity:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MU1zT7LmdLw?vq=hd720

Natural immunity can be short lived. Some keep it long term, some lose it in as short as 25 days:
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20211 ... -last.aspx

Together, these data suggest that the initial magnitude of response and speed of decline vary with disease severity.

I had a mild case of Covid19, but I must have an opperation this week to kill a nerve damaged by the virus (symptoms started well before vaccination). In fact, all the doctors treating long haul symptoms recommend a vaccine 2 weeks after illness to minimize long haul symptoms (the virus can live on a long time, in particular in men).

Lightsaber

In a 13-to-10 vote, advisors for the Food and Drug Administration narrowly supported authorizing Merck's Thor-inspired antiviral pill molnupiravir for use against severe COVID-19.

The FDA's panel of advisors—the Antimicrobial Drugs Advisory Committee (AMDAC)—struggled in an all-day meeting Tuesday to weigh the drug's risks, its modest benefits, and the limited available data. The latest analysis suggests that the pill is only 30 percent effective at preventing hospitalization and death from COVID-19 in people at high risk of severe disease. Meanwhile, the drug has the worrisome potential to cause mutations, leading advisors to agonize over whether it should be offered to pregnant people.