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Jetty
Posts: 1394
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Migrant Crisis at the Texas Border

Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:02 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
If you look at history, immigrants will always "win". No matter how many resources you throw at it.

African migration to Europe is down significantly since Europe confiscated NGO ships and erected fences.

The ONLY way for immigration to stop if to make life better in those countries from which the immigrants emanate compared to the countries immigrants emigrate to.

Absolute nonsense that you made up yourself and has no factual basis. Almost all scientific research points in the complete opposite direction. Read this article i.e. for a good understanding:

Who could deny that rising opportunity at home would give them fewer reasons to leave?
Well, the facts do. The facts deny that. Within low-income countries, richer people are more likely to emigrate. And as low-income countries economically grow, people are more likely to emigrate.


https://www.cgdev.org/blog/emigration-r ... ot-fear-it


Quoting a self-serving thinktank that receives subsidies to meddle in foreign countries. They have zero credibility with their fake research reports.
FACT remains that people in impoverished nations are seeking a better life in richer Western nations. Not the other way around.

https://sandiegoimmigrationlawcenter.co ... ate-to-us/

Commenting on my source and then coming up with immigration lawyers as an alternative :roll:

Does Oxford work for you?

Second, increases in GDP per capita in many developing countries may lead to an increase rather than a decrease in migration (Hatton and Williamson 2002). As income rises, those who have a lot to gain from moving but were not previously able to move will be able to migrate.
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/r ... velopment/

There tons of scientific research on this subject and the facts are simple: more prosperity of poor nations means more and not less migration. Mainstream media in your own language know this as well:

https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achter ... ~b53af577/

https://www.volkskrant.nl/columns-opini ... ~bd9196d2/

https://fd.nl/futures/1354986/migratie- ... n-welvaart
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 982
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Migrant Crisis at the Texas Border

Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:48 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
If you look at history, immigrants will always "win". No matter how many resources you throw at it.
The ONLY way for immigration to stop if to make life better in those countries from which the immigrants emanate compared to the countries immigrants emigrate to.
Fortunately, there are a few shining examples in Central (and South) America that can teach other countries how to prosper. Costa Rica and Panama come to mind. Simply put, they kicked out the military and/or the US and focused on education and economic growth, coupled with honest governance.


Actually thats not true.


Yes it is.
Just look at the history of the European and Middle Eastern sub-continent over the last two millennia. All its empires collapsed due to foreign incursions. Either by peaceful or military means.
In fact, that is how the US got started: Europeans emigrated to the North American continent sometime in the 17th century, displaced the Native Population (with or without force) and basically took over the place 200 years later. In essence, no different than how the Goths took over the Western Roman Empire, or how the Spanish showed up in Tenochtitlan and destroyed the Aztec civilization.



Dieuwer - my four examples don't count?
And those weren't friendly migrations - the stronger people forceable replaced indigenous people at the point of musket or sword.

There were 2 billion people on the planet in 1921, 100 years later 7.8 billion
There are 84 million displaced people according to the UN. Failed states not counted in that number in the Western Hemisphere - Venezuela 29 million people, Haiti 11.9 million, Guatemala 17 million, El Salvador 6.5 million, Honduras 10 million. If your theory that mass migrations are going to happen, you better start converting your garage into an apartment.

Whoops left off the 12 million who live in Cuba. But they don't migrate to the States, do they?
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16000
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Migrant Crisis at the Texas Border

Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:07 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:

Actually thats not true.


Yes it is.
Just look at the history of the European and Middle Eastern sub-continent over the last two millennia. All its empires collapsed due to foreign incursions. Either by peaceful or military means.
In fact, that is how the US got started: Europeans emigrated to the North American continent sometime in the 17th century, displaced the Native Population (with or without force) and basically took over the place 200 years later. In essence, no different than how the Goths took over the Western Roman Empire, or how the Spanish showed up in Tenochtitlan and destroyed the Aztec civilization.



Dieuwer - my four examples don't count?
And those weren't friendly migrations - the stronger people forceable replaced indigenous people at the point of musket or sword.

There were 2 billion people on the planet in 1921, 100 years later 7.8 billion
There are 84 million displaced people according to the UN. Failed states not counted in that number in the Western Hemisphere - Venezuela 29 million people, Haiti 11.9 million, Guatemala 17 million, El Salvador 6.5 million, Honduras 10 million. If your theory that mass migrations are going to happen, you better start converting your garage into an apartment.

Whoops left off the 12 million who live in Cuba. But they don't migrate to the States, do they?


Various geographers, economists, and ecologists have estimated sustainable human population at between 2 and 3 billion, so we’re already way past screwing the pooch.

The way temperatures and aridification are going, we may not be a migrant’s destination of choice 20 years from now - Canada and Russia will start looking awfully attractive.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2897
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Migrant Crisis at the Texas Border

Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:23 pm

Lots of fact deniers participating in this thread. Implying that millions of Europeans flee Europe in boats across the Mediterranean to Africa, instead of people from impoverished African nations fleeing their continent to Europe. Yeah, because educated people flee FROM economic opportunities! Wow, who knew! :D
 
FGITD
Posts: 1744
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Migrant Crisis at the Texas Border

Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:49 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Lots of fact deniers participating in this thread. Implying that millions of Europeans flee Europe in boats across the Mediterranean to Africa, instead of people from impoverished African nations fleeing their continent to Europe. Yeah, because educated people flee FROM economic opportunities! Wow, who knew! :D


Literally no one has implied any such thing.

Key word in the sources cited by the alleged “fact deniers” is developing. Which of those European countries is still considered a developing nation?

There’s certainly a tipping point for developing countries. As they make progress, people start doing better and acquire the means to leave, and so they do. Because the country is doing better, but not great. Eventually you hit that tipping point where now things are good enough to warrant staying.

To scale it down, think of the people making $20k living in a bad area. They and a few neighbors suddenly start making $100k, so they’re going to get out of that bad neighborhood. A few years later, everyone on that street is making $100k and the area improves greatly. so it’s not worth leaving anymore unless You’ve got some other reason to do so.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 982
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Migrant Crisis at the Texas Border

Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:57 pm

The risk alot of people in the US/Canada/Europe/Australia see is if one group of immigrants gets too big and powerful, then they can exert pressure on allowing more of their country folks in. See South Florida and the Cubans ahead of all others. See how quickly the Haitian diasporas worked.

If I were planning on trying to get into the States, I do it now. You will move to the front of the line until the Country finally says enough. Dieuwer - you seem to believe that that won't happen.
But if recent history shows, a new wave of migrants will cause another hard swing to the right politically. And there will be changes in who is allowed in. The pushback will be severe - it help get Trump elected and various eastern European leaders too.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2897
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Migrant Crisis at the Texas Border

Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:13 pm

FGITD wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Lots of fact deniers participating in this thread. Implying that millions of Europeans flee Europe in boats across the Mediterranean to Africa, instead of people from impoverished African nations fleeing their continent to Europe. Yeah, because educated people flee FROM economic opportunities! Wow, who knew! :D


Literally no one has implied any such thing.

Key word in the sources cited by the alleged “fact deniers” is developing. Which of those European countries is still considered a developing nation?

There’s certainly a tipping point for developing countries. As they make progress, people start doing better and acquire the means to leave, and so they do. Because the country is doing better, but not great. Eventually you hit that tipping point where now things are good enough to warrant staying.

To scale it down, think of the people making $20k living in a bad area. They and a few neighbors suddenly start making $100k, so they’re going to get out of that bad neighborhood. A few years later, everyone on that street is making $100k and the area improves greatly. so it’s not worth leaving anymore unless You’ve got some other reason to do so.


Finally, someone admits that when countries reach a certain economic prosperity level people might actually stay instead of emigrate.
 
Jetty
Posts: 1394
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Migrant Crisis at the Texas Border

Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:37 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Lots of fact deniers participating in this thread. Implying that millions of Europeans flee Europe in boats across the Mediterranean to Africa, instead of people from impoverished African nations fleeing their continent to Europe. Yeah, because educated people flee FROM economic opportunities! Wow, who knew! :D


Literally no one has implied any such thing.

Key word in the sources cited by the alleged “fact deniers” is developing. Which of those European countries is still considered a developing nation?

There’s certainly a tipping point for developing countries. As they make progress, people start doing better and acquire the means to leave, and so they do. Because the country is doing better, but not great. Eventually you hit that tipping point where now things are good enough to warrant staying.

To scale it down, think of the people making $20k living in a bad area. They and a few neighbors suddenly start making $100k, so they’re going to get out of that bad neighborhood. A few years later, everyone on that street is making $100k and the area improves greatly. so it’s not worth leaving anymore unless You’ve got some other reason to do so.


Finally, someone admits that when countries reach a certain economic prosperity level people might actually stay instead of emigrate.

No one has stated otherwise, certainly not me. You might want to reread your statement that nobody agreed with: “the ONLY way for immigration to stop if to make life better in those countries from which the immigrants emanate compared to the countries immigrants emigrate to”.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23963
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Migrant Crisis at the Texas Border

Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:18 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
The risk alot of people in the US/Canada/Europe/Australia see is if one group of immigrants gets too big and powerful, then they can exert pressure on allowing more of their country folks in. See South Florida and the Cubans ahead of all others. See how quickly the Haitian diasporas worked.

If I were planning on trying to get into the States, I do it now. You will move to the front of the line until the Country finally says enough. Dieuwer - you seem to believe that that won't happen.
But if recent history shows, a new wave of migrants will cause another hard swing to the right politically. And there will be changes in who is allowed in. The pushback will be severe - it help get Trump elected and various eastern European leaders too.


So the reason for people crossing the border is.... to overthrow the government?

We have had this happen every year. It is only a huge issue when Democrats are in control. Right wing media spins all of this out of control and gins up the base. Remember these cries of crisis at the border 2016-2020? No? Was there zero immigration or did right wing media simply not report it?

Oh, wait... that one "caravan" of like 50 people....
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2897
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Migrant Crisis at the Texas Border

Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:23 pm

Jetty wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
FGITD wrote:

Literally no one has implied any such thing.

Key word in the sources cited by the alleged “fact deniers” is developing. Which of those European countries is still considered a developing nation?

There’s certainly a tipping point for developing countries. As they make progress, people start doing better and acquire the means to leave, and so they do. Because the country is doing better, but not great. Eventually you hit that tipping point where now things are good enough to warrant staying.

To scale it down, think of the people making $20k living in a bad area. They and a few neighbors suddenly start making $100k, so they’re going to get out of that bad neighborhood. A few years later, everyone on that street is making $100k and the area improves greatly. so it’s not worth leaving anymore unless You’ve got some other reason to do so.


Finally, someone admits that when countries reach a certain economic prosperity level people might actually stay instead of emigrate.


No one has stated otherwise, certainly not me.


So, what is your solution then.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 982
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Migrant Crisis at the Texas Border

Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:54 pm

seb146 wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
The risk alot of people in the US/Canada/Europe/Australia see is if one group of immigrants gets too big and powerful, then they can exert pressure on allowing more of their country folks in. See South Florida and the Cubans ahead of all others. See how quickly the Haitian diasporas worked.

If I were planning on trying to get into the States, I do it now. You will move to the front of the line until the Country finally says enough. Dieuwer - you seem to believe that that won't happen.
But if recent history shows, a new wave of migrants will cause another hard swing to the right politically. And there will be changes in who is allowed in. The pushback will be severe - it help get Trump elected and various eastern European leaders too.


So the reason for people crossing the border is.... to overthrow the government?

We have had this happen every year. It is only a huge issue when Democrats are in control. Right wing media spins all of this out of control and gins up the base. Remember these cries of crisis at the border 2016-2020? No? Was there zero immigration or did right wing media simply not report it?

Oh, wait... that one "caravan" of like 50 people....


The internet is your friend - you must not be familiar with the special rules that apply to Cuban refugees who make it ashore. https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article ... tates-2018
There were 20000 people under that bridge not your caravan of 50.
Where did I say they were going to overthrow the Government? But you just saw what political pressure did to Biden to allow 12000 undocumented migrants into the country over the course of 2 or 3 days. https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... n-migrants
Who advocates for Palestinians? Jeez maybe a Congresswoman from Dearborn, MI.
African immigrants from a Congresswoman from St. Paul, MN https://www.rollcall.com/2020/09/16/oma ... ortations/

But believe what you want. I
 
bpatus297
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Migrant Crisis at the Texas Border

Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:19 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
seb146 wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
The risk alot of people in the US/Canada/Europe/Australia see is if one group of immigrants gets too big and powerful, then they can exert pressure on allowing more of their country folks in. See South Florida and the Cubans ahead of all others. See how quickly the Haitian diasporas worked.

If I were planning on trying to get into the States, I do it now. You will move to the front of the line until the Country finally says enough. Dieuwer - you seem to believe that that won't happen.
But if recent history shows, a new wave of migrants will cause another hard swing to the right politically. And there will be changes in who is allowed in. The pushback will be severe - it help get Trump elected and various eastern European leaders too.


So the reason for people crossing the border is.... to overthrow the government?

We have had this happen every year. It is only a huge issue when Democrats are in control. Right wing media spins all of this out of control and gins up the base. Remember these cries of crisis at the border 2016-2020? No? Was there zero immigration or did right wing media simply not report it?

Oh, wait... that one "caravan" of like 50 people....


The internet is your friend - you must not be familiar with the special rules that apply to Cuban refugees who make it ashore. https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article ... tates-2018
There were 20000 people under that bridge not your caravan of 50.
Where did I say they were going to overthrow the Government? But you just saw what political pressure did to Biden to allow 12000 undocumented migrants into the country over the course of 2 or 3 days. https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... n-migrants
Who advocates for Palestinians? Jeez maybe a Congresswoman from Dearborn, MI.
African immigrants from a Congresswoman from St. Paul, MN https://www.rollcall.com/2020/09/16/oma ... ortations/

But believe what you want. I



And there were allowed into the US without a vaccination or COVID test.

"Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas on Friday told reporters that the nearly 15,000 migrants who were camped out under the Del Rio bridge in squalid conditions last week were not tested for COVID-19, and he does not know if anyone got sick with the contagious virus while there."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/mayork ... d-covid-19
 
LMP737
Posts: 6266
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: Migrant Crisis at the Texas Border

Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:45 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:

Okay, but getting to the story at hand, the Hatians, who have messed up their country without America being the bad guy.
The US history in other countires is much darker. I give you that.



You should Google "US involvement in Haiti".
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23963
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Migrant Crisis at the Texas Border

Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:25 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
And there were allowed into the US without a vaccination or COVID test.

"Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas on Friday told reporters that the nearly 15,000 migrants who were camped out under the Del Rio bridge in squalid conditions last week were not tested for COVID-19, and he does not know if anyone got sick with the contagious virus while there."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/mayork ... d-covid-19


Those are two completely different topics.

Mayorkas said officials do not know of those camped out under the bridge are tested or vaccinated while in the camp.

https://www.capradio.org/articles/2021/ ... rn-border/

There is a whole section on covid testing for immigrants at the Southern Border. It is titled On testing migrants for COVID-19 and who is doing it. Immigrants are being tested. If positive, they are isolated.
 
 
LMP737
Posts: 6266
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: Migrant Crisis at the Texas Border

Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:44 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:

The internet is your friend - you must not be familiar with the special rules that apply to Cuban refugees who make it ashore. https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article ... tates-2018
There were 20000 people under that bridge not your caravan of 50.
Where did I say they were going to overthrow the Government? But you just saw what political pressure did to Biden to allow 12000 undocumented migrants into the country over the course of 2 or 3 days. https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... n-migrants
Who advocates for Palestinians? Jeez maybe a Congresswoman from Dearborn, MI.
African immigrants from a Congresswoman from St. Paul, MN https://www.rollcall.com/2020/09/16/oma ... ortations/

But believe what you want. I


You're right, the internet is your friend. So is a history book and a knowledge of current affairs. With those two things you would know that when this countries foreign and domestic policies create havoc in other parts of the world people should not be so shocked when people show up at our door.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23963
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Migrant Crisis at the Texas Border

Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:08 pm

It seems like a migrant crisis happens every year or so. Maybe look into that?
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 982
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Migrant Crisis at the Texas Border

Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:59 am

LMP737 wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:

The internet is your friend - you must not be familiar with the special rules that apply to Cuban refugees who make it ashore. https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article ... tates-2018
There were 20000 people under that bridge not your caravan of 50.
Where did I say they were going to overthrow the Government? But you just saw what political pressure did to Biden to allow 12000 undocumented migrants into the country over the course of 2 or 3 days. https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... n-migrants
Who advocates for Palestinians? Jeez maybe a Congresswoman from Dearborn, MI.
African immigrants from a Congresswoman from St. Paul, MN https://www.rollcall.com/2020/09/16/oma ... ortations/

But believe what you want. I


You're right, the internet is your friend. So is a history book and a knowledge of current affairs. With those two things you would know that when this countries foreign and domestic policies create havoc in other parts of the world people should not be so shocked when people show up at our door.


Well the sins of our past will be showing up real soon (although I'm not sure how the US caused Haiti's collapse but ok)

Panama official tells U.S. another 60,000 Haitians are on the way https://www.kron4.com/news/panama-offic ... e-way/NEWS
No caravans sighted in Southern Mexico, but hundreds of Haitians coming over daily; Panama reports arrest of al-Qaeda operatives trying to blend in

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