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Aesma
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Putin now clearly in the minority

Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:58 pm

He had to ban his main opponents from running, stuff ballots on a massive scale, employ all kinds of fraudulent tactics, to only get "nearly 50%" of the vote...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58614227
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:06 pm

Is he trying to make himself look more legitimate by cheating to only just above 50%?

Then again, why would he care. He could go full African Dictator mode and give himself 90% of the votes and no one could or would do anything about it... The pretense is long gone.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:10 pm

Francoflier wrote:
The pretense is long gone.


Is it? I read on some forums where some western people are more than happy to defend the Putin regime as legitimate and point to the elections, quite naively of course. But there you go, fake elections work with some.
 
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Tugger
Posts: 11480
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
The pretense is long gone.


Is it? I read on some forums where some western people are more than happy to defend the Putin regime as legitimate and point to the elections, quite naively of course. But there you go, fake elections work with some.

Fake elections are real news, and real elections are Fake News. Sigh... the world we live in.

Tugg
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
The pretense is long gone.


Is it? I read on some forums where some western people are more than happy to defend the Putin regime as legitimate and point to the elections, quite naively of course. But there you go, fake elections work with some.


Certain right wing figures here in the US praise him on the regular - I would have called anyone crazy 10-15 years ago if they told me that would come to pass.
 
johns624
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:48 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
The pretense is long gone.


Is it? I read on some forums where some western people are more than happy to defend the Putin regime as legitimate and point to the elections, quite naively of course. But there you go, fake elections work with some.


Certain right wing figures here in the US praise him on the regular - I would have called anyone crazy 10-15 years ago if they told me that would come to pass.
I remember when I was in St Petersburg in 2012. The Russians we met derisively referred to him as "Putin the Great". How times have changed...
 
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seb146
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:26 pm

He will simply keep changing the rules so he can stay in power. He has been doing this for years so this should be no surprise.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:23 pm

For a long time he had a lot of support despite already employing such tactics. It's easy for example to be popular if you don't allow free journalism, imprison or kill opponents, etc., and with the economy doing OK. Now the economy isn't doing OK, and many finally open their eyes. They might also realize the only people in the world in power for 20 years or more are dictators...
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:50 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
The pretense is long gone.


Is it? I read on some forums where some western people are more than happy to defend the Putin regime as legitimate and point to the elections, quite naively of course. But there you go, fake elections work with some.


Certain right wing figures here in the US praise him on the regular - I would have called anyone crazy 10-15 years ago if they told me that would come to pass.


Right-wingers praise him (though I actually didn't see it anywhere. Can you post a link?) and liberals behave like communists.
Maybe it's a coordinated plan to ease in the idea to the nation lol.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:14 pm

Ramzan Kadyrov won 99.7% of the vote in Chechnya!

I guess the solution for Putin for next election is to hold it over the period of a week or so, elongating the period with witch to stuff ballot boxes etc?
 
T4thH
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:53 pm

zkojq wrote:
Ramzan Kadyrov won 99.7% of the vote in Chechnya!

I guess the solution for Putin for next election is to hold it over the period of a week or so, elongating the period with witch to stuff ballot boxes etc?


Putin has really to learn, best from Lukashenko and the great Erdogan. Only when you get >100% of all votes, than you are greatest....
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:40 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Is it? I read on some forums where some western people are more than happy to defend the Putin regime as legitimate and point to the elections, quite naively of course. But there you go, fake elections work with some.


Certain right wing figures here in the US praise him on the regular - I would have called anyone crazy 10-15 years ago if they told me that would come to pass.


Right-wingers praise him (though I actually didn't see it anywhere. Can you post a link?) and liberals behave like communists.


It has been all over the place the last several years amongst some pols and TV pundits:

https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/603433/

https://observer.com/2018/04/report-say ... atvia/amp/

https://amp.theguardian.com/media/2019/ ... todd-msnbc

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/glo ... utType=amp
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3611
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:58 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
The pretense is long gone.


Is it? I read on some forums where some western people are more than happy to defend the Putin regime as legitimate and point to the elections, quite naively of course. But there you go, fake elections work with some.


Certain right wing figures here in the US praise him on the regular - I would have called anyone crazy 10-15 years ago if they told me that would come to pass.


Except Mitt Romney...nobody listened to poor Mitt, though. And that was 2012.

T4thH wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Ramzan Kadyrov won 99.7% of the vote in Chechnya!

I guess the solution for Putin for next election is to hold it over the period of a week or so, elongating the period with witch to stuff ballot boxes etc?


Putin has really to learn, best from Lukashenko and the great Erdogan. Only when you get >100% of all votes, than you are greatest....


Don't forget the myth, the god, and the creator of all Kim Jong-un. At least according to NK "history".

Or they can do what's going on in HK right now and simply jailed all opposition. 100% representation with 90% voter turnout! (Out of <5000 peeps, or 0.06% of HK population).
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:11 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Is it? I read on some forums where some western people are more than happy to defend the Putin regime as legitimate and point to the elections, quite naively of course. But there you go, fake elections work with some.


Certain right wing figures here in the US praise him on the regular - I would have called anyone crazy 10-15 years ago if they told me that would come to pass.


Except Mitt Romney...nobody listened to poor Mitt, though. And that was 2012.

T4thH wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Ramzan Kadyrov won 99.7% of the vote in Chechnya!

I guess the solution for Putin for next election is to hold it over the period of a week or so, elongating the period with witch to stuff ballot boxes etc?


Putin has really to learn, best from Lukashenko and the great Erdogan. Only when you get >100% of all votes, than you are greatest....


Don't forget the myth, the god, and the creator of all Kim Jong-un. At least according to NK "history".

Or they can do what's going on in HK right now and simply jailed all opposition. 100% representation with 90% voter turnout! (Out of <5000 peeps, or 0.06% of HK population).


With an adult population of around 120 million, they're going to need a few more cops for that. Russia aint Hong Kong :lol:
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:37 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Certain right wing figures here in the US praise him on the regular - I would have called anyone crazy 10-15 years ago if they told me that would come to pass.


Right-wingers praise him (though I actually didn't see it anywhere. Can you post a link?) and liberals behave like communists.


It has been all over the place the last several years amongst some pols and TV pundits:

https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/603433/

https://observer.com/2018/04/report-say ... atvia/amp/

https://amp.theguardian.com/media/2019/ ... todd-msnbc

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/glo ... utType=amp


Networks or corporations singing to a different tune in places like Russia, China, Middle East is nothing new.
They would get shut down and licenses revoked if they didn't. NBA, Google, Apple, Fox, CNN you name it. All puppets just hanging to get a dollar. Nature of the beast.
As for some of the Tucker statements, some are crazy and some are hard to disagree with. Show me somebody that doesn't say something stupid at times? There are no perfect people but there's a lot of virtue signaling. As for the mentioned articles, every day on social media, plenty of liberals display their hate for the US so he's not wrong here at all.
At the same time, Biden isn't exactly giving Russia a hard time (minus some words) so I bet Putin is happy Biden is at the helm.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57180674

You have this more recently but as time is showing it doesn't really mean much anymore so in the end, Russia is still happy.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-issues ... 021-08-20/

My point is they are all the same doing the same and wanting the same. The only difference here is that the elites have different rules they need to play around.
Pretending US is some harbor of virtue and righteousness is plain stupid.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:46 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:

Right-wingers praise him (though I actually didn't see it anywhere. Can you post a link?) and liberals behave like communists.


It has been all over the place the last several years amongst some pols and TV pundits:

https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/603433/

https://observer.com/2018/04/report-say ... atvia/amp/

https://amp.theguardian.com/media/2019/ ... todd-msnbc

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/glo ... utType=amp


Networks or corporations singing to a different tune in places like Russia, China, Middle East is nothing new.
They would get shut down and licenses revoked if they didn't. NBA, Google, Apple, Fox, CNN you name it. All puppets just hanging to get a dollar. Nature of the beast.
As for some of the Tucker statements, some are crazy and some are hard to disagree with. Show me somebody that doesn't say something stupid at times? There are no perfect people but there's a lot of virtue signaling. As for the mentioned articles, every day on social media, plenty of liberals display their hate for the US so he's not wrong here at all.
At the same time, Biden isn't exactly giving Russia a hard time (minus some words) so I bet Putin is happy Biden is at the helm.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57180674

You have this more recently but as time is showing it doesn't really mean much anymore so in the end, Russia is still happy.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-issues ... 021-08-20/

My point is they are all the same doing the same and wanting the same. The only difference here is that the elites have different rules they need to play around.
Pretending US is some harbor of virtue and righteousness is plain stupid.


The point was the sea change in some conservatives' attitudes toward Putin over the last decade has been downright bizarre. Understandable due to the dynamics in play, but no less bizarre.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:49 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:


Networks or corporations singing to a different tune in places like Russia, China, Middle East is nothing new.
They would get shut down and licenses revoked if they didn't. NBA, Google, Apple, Fox, CNN you name it. All puppets just hanging to get a dollar. Nature of the beast.
As for some of the Tucker statements, some are crazy and some are hard to disagree with. Show me somebody that doesn't say something stupid at times? There are no perfect people but there's a lot of virtue signaling. As for the mentioned articles, every day on social media, plenty of liberals display their hate for the US so he's not wrong here at all.
At the same time, Biden isn't exactly giving Russia a hard time (minus some words) so I bet Putin is happy Biden is at the helm.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57180674

You have this more recently but as time is showing it doesn't really mean much anymore so in the end, Russia is still happy.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-issues ... 021-08-20/

My point is they are all the same doing the same and wanting the same. The only difference here is that the elites have different rules they need to play around.
Pretending US is some harbor of virtue and righteousness is plain stupid.


The point was the sea change in some conservatives' attitudes toward Putin over the last decade has been downright bizarre. Understandable due to the dynamics in play, but no less bizarre.


I think both Democrats and Republicans would want some version of absolute control like Russia or China have. Especially China. I mean that country is about to run circles around the world and nothing will stop them so thinking pure numbers here they are doing something right. The fact that you can silence the opposition also must sound tempting. Just you and your ideas. If given a chance I bet both Dem and Repu would form one major party and run with it.
Now, collateral damage is a different story but losers don't tell the tales or at least that's what history is telling us in the grand scheme of things.

Russia on the other hand is simply too big to be exploted which is why they never had a real shot at domination past their region. Nothing Putin could do about it.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:58 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:

Networks or corporations singing to a different tune in places like Russia, China, Middle East is nothing new.
They would get shut down and licenses revoked if they didn't. NBA, Google, Apple, Fox, CNN you name it. All puppets just hanging to get a dollar. Nature of the beast.
As for some of the Tucker statements, some are crazy and some are hard to disagree with. Show me somebody that doesn't say something stupid at times? There are no perfect people but there's a lot of virtue signaling. As for the mentioned articles, every day on social media, plenty of liberals display their hate for the US so he's not wrong here at all.
At the same time, Biden isn't exactly giving Russia a hard time (minus some words) so I bet Putin is happy Biden is at the helm.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57180674

You have this more recently but as time is showing it doesn't really mean much anymore so in the end, Russia is still happy.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-issues ... 021-08-20/

My point is they are all the same doing the same and wanting the same. The only difference here is that the elites have different rules they need to play around.
Pretending US is some harbor of virtue and righteousness is plain stupid.


The point was the sea change in some conservatives' attitudes toward Putin over the last decade has been downright bizarre. Understandable due to the dynamics in play, but no less bizarre.


I think both Democrats and Republicans would want some version of absolute control like Russia or China have. Especially China. I mean that country is about to run circles around the world and nothing will stop them so thinking pure numbers here they are doing something right. The fact that you can silence the opposition also must sound tempting. Just you and your ideas. If given a chance I bet both Dem and Repu would form one major party and run with it.
Now, collateral damage is a different story but losers don't tell the tales or at least that's what history is telling us in the grand scheme of things.

Russia on the other hand is simply too big to be exploted which is why they never had a real shot at domination past their region. Nothing Putin could do about it.


That would be an interesting starter for a thread, as previously suggested. China put up new hospitals in a week. In the US, you'd be lucky to get one done in three years, and that's if the funding and permits go right and nobody in the surrounding area storms planning commission meetings in opposition over traffic.
 
tu204
Posts: 2271
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:04 pm

First of all, United Russia's election results do not equal Putin's approval ratings. Look at historical opinion polls for that. Anyone that claims that is trying to throw in propaganda or is simply incompetent.

Secondly, United Russia's election results of nearly 50% pretty much match public opinion. I don't dismiss that there were probably irregularities in the elections, however those wouldn't play a significant role in the end result.
In the other country I hold a passport of, Canada, they didn't let in a single foreign observer and didn't have video monitoring of all the elections sites (correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't lived in Canada for over 10 years, visit every 2-3 years, have bo plan to live there so I don't really follow or care about their politics that much). Same as United States and most other countries (so they can put a gym sock in their mouths when it comes to criticizing Russian elections as far as I, and most other Russians are concerned).

Personally, there are issues and points I agree with and don't agree with when in comes to United Russia. I didn't vote for them for the single reason that I don't believe in a single constitutional majority in parliament since they don't have to listen to anyone but themselves.
Unfortunately the Russian parliament is elected 50% by total party votes and 50% from ridings/districts where whoever wins the district gets the mandate. This is how they still got over 2/3 of the seats with under 50% of the total vote.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:21 pm

The US is a bit a of special case, but in other democracies like Canada, opposition parties observe the electoral process and are fine with it (in the US mostly too, but Trump...). In Russia they're harassed or in prison.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:04 pm

tu204 wrote:
First of all, United Russia's election results do not equal Putin's approval ratings. Look at historical opinion polls for that. Anyone that claims that is trying to throw in propaganda or is simply incompetent.

Secondly, United Russia's election results of nearly 50% pretty much match public opinion. I don't dismiss that there were probably irregularities in the elections, however those wouldn't play a significant role in the end result.
In the other country I hold a passport of, Canada, they didn't let in a single foreign observer and didn't have video monitoring of all the elections sites (correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't lived in Canada for over 10 years, visit every 2-3 years, have bo plan to live there so I don't really follow or care about their politics that much). Same as United States and most other countries (so they can put a gym sock in their mouths when it comes to criticizing Russian elections as far as I, and most other Russians are concerned).

Personally, there are issues and points I agree with and don't agree with when in comes to United Russia. I didn't vote for them for the single reason that I don't believe in a single constitutional majority in parliament since they don't have to listen to anyone but themselves.
Unfortunately the Russian parliament is elected 50% by total party votes and 50% from ridings/districts where whoever wins the district gets the mandate. This is how they still got over 2/3 of the seats with under 50% of the total vote.


oh boy, you are either real naive about Russia and living in an autocracy, or you just want to whitewash the Putin regime in a mostly western-orientated forum. Let's keep it real and give some impartial information:
- Russia ranked as an Authoritarian regime, no democracy, number 124 in the world
- Canada ranked as a Full democracy, number 5 in the world

Source: the Democracy Index by the Economist Intelligence Unit.

No contest between the two. Douma is a puppet parliament with paper powers, doesn't matter what you vote.

Full and fair elections are impossible in Russia (or in any other autocratic regimes), in Russia there is a total lag of the right conditions to have a democratic election. In Russia, there is no free press, no rule of law, no freedom of assembly, no freedom to start political parties, not even the right to have the freedom to determine the electoral list yourself (if a candidate is too popular he/she will be dismissed).

Or most 'comical in St Petersburg: Three near-identical Boris Vishnevskys on St Petersburg election ballot. Real Vishnevsky battling two doppelgängers who seem to have changed their appearance as well as their names.

So please don't compare the two countries if they are on the same level, As shown, they are not, not even close.
 
DTVG
Posts: 104
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:51 pm

tu204 wrote:
First of all, United Russia's election results do not equal Putin's approval ratings. Look at historical opinion polls for that. Anyone that claims that is trying to throw in propaganda or is simply incompetent.

Secondly, United Russia's election results of nearly 50% pretty much match public opinion. I don't dismiss that there were probably irregularities in the elections, however those wouldn't play a significant role in the end result.
In the other country I hold a passport of, Canada, they didn't let in a single foreign observer and didn't have video monitoring of all the elections sites (correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't lived in Canada for over 10 years, visit every 2-3 years, have bo plan to live there so I don't really follow or care about their politics that much). Same as United States and most other countries (so they can put a gym sock in their mouths when it comes to criticizing Russian elections as far as I, and most other Russians are concerned).

Personally, there are issues and points I agree with and don't agree with when in comes to United Russia. I didn't vote for them for the single reason that I don't believe in a single constitutional majority in parliament since they don't have to listen to anyone but themselves.
Unfortunately the Russian parliament is elected 50% by total party votes and 50% from ridings/districts where whoever wins the district gets the mandate. This is how they still got over 2/3 of the seats with under 50% of the total vote.


I cant speak for Canada but where I live international organizations can (by can I mean are allowed to) send election observers to our elections (which they rarely do).
 
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Tugger
Posts: 11480
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:21 pm

You really have to admire the Russian leadership's utter cowardice!

They are afraid of everyone.

Tugg
 
tu204
Posts: 2271
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:24 am

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
First of all, United Russia's election results do not equal Putin's approval ratings. Look at historical opinion polls for that. Anyone that claims that is trying to throw in propaganda or is simply incompetent.

Secondly, United Russia's election results of nearly 50% pretty much match public opinion. I don't dismiss that there were probably irregularities in the elections, however those wouldn't play a significant role in the end result.
In the other country I hold a passport of, Canada, they didn't let in a single foreign observer and didn't have video monitoring of all the elections sites (correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't lived in Canada for over 10 years, visit every 2-3 years, have bo plan to live there so I don't really follow or care about their politics that much). Same as United States and most other countries (so they can put a gym sock in their mouths when it comes to criticizing Russian elections as far as I, and most other Russians are concerned).

Personally, there are issues and points I agree with and don't agree with when in comes to United Russia. I didn't vote for them for the single reason that I don't believe in a single constitutional majority in parliament since they don't have to listen to anyone but themselves.
Unfortunately the Russian parliament is elected 50% by total party votes and 50% from ridings/districts where whoever wins the district gets the mandate. This is how they still got over 2/3 of the seats with under 50% of the total vote.


oh boy, you are either real naive about Russia and living in an autocracy, or you just want to whitewash the Putin regime in a mostly western-orientated forum. Let's keep it real and give some impartial information:
- Russia ranked as an Authoritarian regime, no democracy, number 124 in the world
- Canada ranked as a Full democracy, number 5 in the world

Source: the Democracy Index by the Economist Intelligence Unit.

No contest between the two. Douma is a puppet parliament with paper powers, doesn't matter what you vote.

Full and fair elections are impossible in Russia (or in any other autocratic regimes), in Russia there is a total lag of the right conditions to have a democratic election. In Russia, there is no free press, no rule of law, no freedom of assembly, no freedom to start political parties, not even the right to have the freedom to determine the electoral list yourself (if a candidate is too popular he/she will be dismissed).

Or most 'comical in St Petersburg: Three near-identical Boris Vishnevskys on St Petersburg election ballot. Real Vishnevsky battling two doppelgängers who seem to have changed their appearance as well as their names.

So please don't compare the two countries if they are on the same level, As shown, they are not, not even close.


Absolutely don't care what some propagandist sites say about freedoms and transparencies. The fact that Russia is rated below Ukraine, where the regime shuts down media critical of the regime, arbitrarily sanctions it's own citizens and goes after anyone critical of the regime is more than enough for me to make my conclusions on the quality of said rankings. Maybe if they print the reports on soft paper you could at least use that for toilet paper.

I stated facts - election monitors from parties in the elections, foreign monitors, video surveillance from polling stations.

Having lived in both countries, as an individual I feel no difference when it comes to freedoms. The only thing I can't do in Russia that I could have done in Canada would be attend a pride parade.
 
tu204
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Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:53 am

Aesma wrote:
The US is a bit a of special case, but in other democracies like Canada, opposition parties observe the electoral process and are fine with it (in the US mostly too, but Trump...). In Russia they're harassed or in prison.


Well we won't know that will we? Both countries don't allow observers from other nations or international organizations. ;)
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12586
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:03 am

tu204 wrote:
Absolutely don't care what some propagandist sites say about freedoms and transparencies.


The Economist a propagandist site :lol:

tu204 wrote:
The fact that Russia is rated below Ukraine, where the regime shuts down media critical of the regime, arbitrarily sanctions it's own citizens and goes after anyone critical of the regime is more than enough for me to make my conclusions on the quality of said rankings.


check, the real problem here, you don't believe it because it doesn't fit your narrative, thus you do not believe the source. It has nothing to do with the source and everything to do with your frame of mind. One thing is correct, the situation in Ukraine isn't good at all, the thing is: in Russia, it is worse. Just a small overview.

tu204 wrote:
I stated facts - election monitors from parties in the elections, foreign monitors


I will state facts as well: no free press, no rule of law, no freedom of assembly, no freedom to start political parties, not even the right to have the freedom to determine the electoral list yourself.
All is needed to have a democracy and Russia is no democracy, but an autocratic regime.

tu204 wrote:
video surveillance from polling stations.


Yes, those are hilarious: open ballot fraud. They don't care even.

tu204 wrote:
Having lived in both countries, as an individual I feel no difference when it comes to freedoms. The only thing I can't do in Russia that I could have done in Canada would be attending a pride parade.


Given your stated biased for Russia / Putin regime, your personal experience says nothing. And given your biased views for the Putin regime, you are not opposed to the regime, that will help a lot to make your life a lot easier. Given that you do not accept any international compartment of independent researches where Russia isn't at the top, I will leave it for now.

But seriously, Canada is Russia when it comes to freedom, seriously?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:12 am

tu204 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The US is a bit a of special case, but in other democracies like Canada, opposition parties observe the electoral process and are fine with it (in the US mostly too, but Trump...). In Russia they're harassed or in prison.


Well we won't know that will we? Both countries don't allow observers from other nations or international organizations. ;)


You are wrong: OSCE. And more indepth: Link to several sources.

As for the US: OSCE

For Russia: No OSCE observers for Russian parliamentary elections following major limitations

So conclusion: OSCE observers for both US and Canadian elections, no OSCE observers in Russia because they weren't allowed to do their work freely.

Does this change your conclusion about Canada and Russia's elections?
 
tu204
Posts: 2271
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:44 am

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Absolutely don't care what some propagandist sites say about freedoms and transparencies.


The Economist a propagandist site :lol:

tu204 wrote:
The fact that Russia is rated below Ukraine, where the regime shuts down media critical of the regime, arbitrarily sanctions it's own citizens and goes after anyone critical of the regime is more than enough for me to make my conclusions on the quality of said rankings.


check, the real problem here, you don't believe it because it doesn't fit your narrative, thus you do not believe the source. It has nothing to do with the source and everything to do with your frame of mind. One thing is correct, the situation in Ukraine isn't good at all, the thing is: in Russia, it is worse. Just a small overview.

tu204 wrote:
I stated facts - election monitors from parties in the elections, foreign monitors


I will state facts as well: no free press, no rule of law, no freedom of assembly, no freedom to start political parties, not even the right to have the freedom to determine the electoral list yourself.
All is needed to have a democracy and Russia is no democracy, but an autocratic regime.

tu204 wrote:
video surveillance from polling stations.


Yes, those are hilarious: open ballot fraud. They don't care even.

tu204 wrote:
Having lived in both countries, as an individual I feel no difference when it comes to freedoms. The only thing I can't do in Russia that I could have done in Canada would be attending a pride parade.


Given your stated biased for Russia / Putin regime, your personal experience says nothing. And given your biased views for the Putin regime, you are not opposed to the regime, that will help a lot to make your life a lot easier. Given that you do not accept any international compartment of independent researches where Russia isn't at the top, I will leave it for now.

But seriously, Canada is Russia when it comes to freedom, seriously?


I say again, I do not care what opinions western NGO's/media, many of whom whom openly or indirectly receive funding from western regimes' governments say about Russia. I care about what I see for myself. The article posted in the topic starter is a great example of propaganda aimed at misleading the average western reader that has no clue or first hand account on what is going on in Russia and is far more likely to believe what he reads than the Russian reader (USSR years taught people to take whats on TV with a grain of salt). I read daily western media/propaganda (CBC, CNN, BBC), and often it's amazing on the shit they write. Like describing a different planet than the one I am living in and see every day. Clearly to me this is aimed at their local audiences.

What's important in Russia is that the authorities have taken major steps to investigate these NGO's and "media" outlets, branding many of them "Foreign agents", when they now have to start every article they post with "This is written by an outlet, which is a foreign agent" or something like that. It is important that readers know who is trying to feed them shit under the guise of an "independent news outlet".

Nobody is banning them, they just have to call themselves what they really are so people aren't mislead.

If they don't take foreign money, like Echo of Moscow, they can go ahead calling themselves a news outlet and continue to badmouth Putin and the government all day long (regularly listen to them on my commute, you see, I can do that, but you that I can't. It's sad, you seem like an educated person and swallow your propaganda hook line and sinker.)
 
tu204
Posts: 2271
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:48 am

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The US is a bit a of special case, but in other democracies like Canada, opposition parties observe the electoral process and are fine with it (in the US mostly too, but Trump...). In Russia they're harassed or in prison.


Well we won't know that will we? Both countries don't allow observers from other nations or international organizations. ;)


You are wrong: OSCE. And more indepth: Link to several sources.

As for the US: OSCE

For Russia: No OSCE observers for Russian parliamentary elections following major limitations

So conclusion: OSCE observers for both US and Canadian elections, no OSCE observers in Russia because they weren't allowed to do their work freely.

Does this change your conclusion about Canada and Russia's elections?


I stand corrected about Canada. Ok, in my book they just went up a notch.

As far as Russia goes, the OCSE decided to not send anyone because the number of monitors allowed were less than what they wanted. They were not banned from coming. It was their decision. Many other countries and organisations sent monitors.
 
Dogman
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:18 pm

tu204 wrote:
I say again, I do not care what opinions western NGO's/media, many of whom whom openly or indirectly receive funding from western regimes' governments say about Russia. I care about what I see for myself. The article posted in the topic starter is a great example of propaganda aimed at misleading the average western reader that has no clue or first hand account on what is going on in Russia and is far more likely to believe what he reads than the Russian reader (USSR years taught people to take whats on TV with a grain of salt). I read daily western media/propaganda (CBC, CNN, BBC), and often it's amazing on the shit they write. Like describing a different planet than the one I am living in and see every day. Clearly to me this is aimed at their local audiences.

What's important in Russia is that the authorities have taken major steps to investigate these NGO's and "media" outlets, branding many of them "Foreign agents", when they now have to start every article they post with "This is written by an outlet, which is a foreign agent" or something like that. It is important that readers know who is trying to feed them shit under the guise of an "independent news outlet".

Nobody is banning them, they just have to call themselves what they really are so people aren't mislead.

If they don't take foreign money, like Echo of Moscow, they can go ahead calling themselves a news outlet and continue to badmouth Putin and the government all day long (regularly listen to them on my commute, you see, I can do that, but you that I can't. It's sad, you seem like an educated person and swallow your propaganda hook line and sinker.)


If you really used to live in Canada you would know that the news agencies do not wright the news about Russia for the local audience, because the local audience, at least in Canada, does not care much what is going on in Russia. I don't think that the things are much different in the USA or EU.
As for Ukraine, the TV channels that got closed were broadcasting a pure undeluded Russian propaganda. One of them belongs to a guy whose son has Putin himself as the godfather. It would be strange to allow them to operate during the Russian aggression against Ukraine, don't you think? There are plenty of the news sources that are critical of the current president, for example the channel that belongs to the previous Ukrainian president, the 5 Channel. And here are plenty more.
The simple fact is that in Ukraine elections result in changing of the people in power, and in Russia they do not. That's why Ukraine is rated above Russia.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12586
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:01 pm

tu204 wrote:
As far as Russia goes, the OCSE decided to not send anyone because the number of monitors allowed were less than what they wanted. They were not banned from coming. It was their decision. Many other countries and organisations sent monitors.


Haha, right, the simple truth is that they were banned from doing their job properly. The OCSE can't properly observe the election process with fewer people, and thus decided not to come at all because they don't want to be used by the Putin regime propaganda machine. So or you allow observers in and don't restrict them in any way, or you don't. Quite an understandable reaction by the OCSE, don't you think.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:25 pm

tu204 wrote:
I say again, I do not care what opinions western NGO's/media, many of whom whom openly or indirectly receive funding from western regimes' governments say about Russia. I care about what I see for myself.


Ok, very well, you do not want to learn about the outside world and just want to remain in your own train of thought. That is fine, but then again your opinion is of no use to anyone but yourself because it isn't fact-based, but only your own observations and feelings.

As for your NGO comment, perhaps you have been away from western countries, many NGO's have government grants, the difference with Russia is, that democratic governments will not say what the NGO's investigates and certainly not what their conclusions are. Many NGO's are also very critical of the same governments and rightfully so. So your comments about NGO's and Russia are unsubstantiated and given the previous remark, aren't even logical in a democracy.

PS quite a common mistake: western democracies have governments. The term 'regime' is mostly reserved for a totalitarian form of government.
 
THS214
Posts: 426
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:01 pm

Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:40 pm

tu204 wrote:

Absolutely don't care what some propagandist sites say about freedoms and transparencies. The fact that Russia is rated below Ukraine, where the regime shuts down media critical of the regime, arbitrarily sanctions it's own citizens and goes after anyone critical of the regime is more than enough for me to make my conclusions on the quality of said rankings. Maybe if they print the reports on soft paper you could at least use that for toilet paper.

I stated facts - election monitors from parties in the elections, foreign monitors, video surveillance from polling stations.

Having lived in both countries, as an individual I feel no difference when it comes to freedoms. The only thing I can't do in Russia that I could have done in Canada would be attend a pride parade.


I believe OSCE and our member of parliament who leads our poll watchers. They say that even the basic standards are not met in the Russian election so there in no reason to send poll watchers to monitor elections in Russia.
 
tu204
Posts: 2271
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:52 pm

THS214 wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Absolutely don't care what some propagandist sites say about freedoms and transparencies. The fact that Russia is rated below Ukraine, where the regime shuts down media critical of the regime, arbitrarily sanctions it's own citizens and goes after anyone critical of the regime is more than enough for me to make my conclusions on the quality of said rankings. Maybe if they print the reports on soft paper you could at least use that for toilet paper.

I stated facts - election monitors from parties in the elections, foreign monitors, video surveillance from polling stations.

Having lived in both countries, as an individual I feel no difference when it comes to freedoms. The only thing I can't do in Russia that I could have done in Canada would be attend a pride parade.


I believe OSCE and our member of parliament who leads our poll watchers. They say that even the basic standards are not met in the Russian election so there in no reason to send poll watchers to monitor elections in Russia.


Cool. So if they don't send anyone they can take a sock off their foot and put it in their mouths I guess.

"I haven't been there, but I know it sucks!" :roll:
 
tu204
Posts: 2271
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:57 pm

Dogman wrote:
tu204 wrote:
I say again, I do not care what opinions western NGO's/media, many of whom whom openly or indirectly receive funding from western regimes' governments say about Russia. I care about what I see for myself. The article posted in the topic starter is a great example of propaganda aimed at misleading the average western reader that has no clue or first hand account on what is going on in Russia and is far more likely to believe what he reads than the Russian reader (USSR years taught people to take whats on TV with a grain of salt). I read daily western media/propaganda (CBC, CNN, BBC), and often it's amazing on the shit they write. Like describing a different planet than the one I am living in and see every day. Clearly to me this is aimed at their local audiences.

What's important in Russia is that the authorities have taken major steps to investigate these NGO's and "media" outlets, branding many of them "Foreign agents", when they now have to start every article they post with "This is written by an outlet, which is a foreign agent" or something like that. It is important that readers know who is trying to feed them shit under the guise of an "independent news outlet".

Nobody is banning them, they just have to call themselves what they really are so people aren't mislead.

If they don't take foreign money, like Echo of Moscow, they can go ahead calling themselves a news outlet and continue to badmouth Putin and the government all day long (regularly listen to them on my commute, you see, I can do that, but you that I can't. It's sad, you seem like an educated person and swallow your propaganda hook line and sinker.)


If you really used to live in Canada you would know that the news agencies do not wright the news about Russia for the local audience, because the local audience, at least in Canada, does not care much what is going on in Russia. I don't think that the things are much different in the USA or EU.
As for Ukraine, the TV channels that got closed were broadcasting a pure undeluded Russian propaganda. One of them belongs to a guy whose son has Putin himself as the godfather. It would be strange to allow them to operate during the Russian aggression against Ukraine, don't you think? There are plenty of the news sources that are critical of the current president, for example the channel that belongs to the previous Ukrainian president, the 5 Channel. And here are plenty more.
The simple fact is that in Ukraine elections result in changing of the people in power, and in Russia they do not. That's why Ukraine is rated above Russia.


Hahaha, that's good, I like that.

News outlets are critical of the regime that is steadily but surely turning Ukraine into something you expect to see in Africa get closed, without any legal proceedings whatsoever and of course they are "Russia spies/agents" or whatever.
Can't be any more convenient than that. Rob the people all you want, when anyone criticizes you just call them a Russian spy and shut them down, keep robbing all you can.

Btw, from what I can tell, elections in Ukraine don't really change much. Just the face maybe, the regime remains and gets even worse. Have a look at what Zelensky promised and what he actually kept, if anything.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11480
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Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:23 pm

tu204 wrote:
Cool. So if they don't send anyone they can take a sock off their foot and put it in their mouths I guess.

"I haven't been there, but I know it sucks!" :roll:

You should tour North Korea, it is a paradise! At least every tour they guide you on will show you that.

Shows that governments provide for visiting officials are worthless. And I know that you are fully aware of that.

Tugg
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 12586
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:06 pm

tu204 wrote:
Hahaha, that's good, I like that.

News outlets are critical of the regime that is steadily but surely turning Ukraine into something you expect to see in Africa get closed, without any legal proceedings whatsoever and of course they are "Russia spies/agents" or whatever.
Can't be any more convenient than that. Rob the people all you want, when anyone criticizes you just call them a Russian spy and shut them down, keep robbing all you can.

Btw, from what I can tell, elections in Ukraine don't really change much. Just the face maybe, the regime remains and gets even worse. Have a look at what Zelensky promised and what he actually kept, if anything.


Tu204, you know what, you are absolutely right about Ukraine, Ukraine is not really a democracy. A number of things you list will make sure that the minimum criteria to be called democracy are not met. So correct there. And yet, Russia is ranked lower than Ukraine, so the situation in Russia is worse.
 
Dogman
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:55 am

tu204 wrote:
Hahaha, that's good, I like that.

News outlets are critical of the regime that is steadily but surely turning Ukraine into something you expect to see in Africa get closed, without any legal proceedings whatsoever and of course they are "Russia spies/agents" or whatever.


No, they are critical of the current government, (not the regime, do not confuse it with Russia) that it does not want to surrender Ukraine to Putin. By the way, do not be so smug about Africa: many of them have the democracy index higher than Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

tu204 wrote:
Btw, from what I can tell, elections in Ukraine don't really change much. Just the face maybe, the regime remains and gets even worse. Have a look at what Zelensky promised and what he actually kept, if anything.


You are quire wrong, there are noticeable changes. Not always to the better, I must admit. When the previous administration was in charge a lot was done in reforming the court system and battling corruption. Not to mention that the army was rebuilt from non-existence. Zelensky, being an oligarch project, rolled back many of those changes. BTW, it is interesting how you structured your reply assuming that I will be defending Zelensky just because he is the current Ukrainian president. I have a very negative opinion of him, even though it looks like he finally starting to realize that Putin will accept nothing less than a complete surrender of Ukrainian sovereignty.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11480
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Putin now clearly in the minority

Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:04 am

Dogman wrote:
[...] it looks like he finally starting to realize that Putin will accept nothing less than a complete surrender of Ukrainian sovereignty.

Putin wants nothing less for Ukraine than what he has in Belarus, a lapdog stongman subverting his country for pats on the head and strokes on his belly.

Tugg

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