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Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:46 pm

Looks like we have another "Debt Ceiling" drama on our hands.
To not have these dramas ever again, I suggest to actually let the FED handle the "ceiling", as Brian Galle suggests ( https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/573 ... ing-crisis ), or do away with it altogether. After all, Europe doesn't have a "debt ceiling" either and the euro also is a reserve currency. And AFAIK, nobody is fretting about Europe not being able to pay their bills or going bankrupt .
For those that do not subscribe to "but they don't do it either", the mere fact that the debt ceiling is a static number is nonsense. Because static debt as percentage of a growing economy will automatically decline in relevance. Meaning, that a certain point your "ceiling" will be so low that it will start to inhibit growth. Therefore, at a minimum any debt ceiling should be quoted as a percentage of GDP (which is what Europe is doing, i.e. the "Maastricht Criteria").
 
Newark727
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:53 pm

The debt ceiling is goddamned idiotic. To hell with it.
 
extender
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:54 pm

Sure, go on, let them spend like drunken sailors.
 
Newark727
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:20 pm

extender wrote:
Sure, go on, let them spend like drunken sailors.


I think the record shows that the debt ceiling has consistently failed to prevent this. Instead, it's given Congress a crash-the-economy button they can threaten to press whenever they feel cranky, which is always.

The way to actually get fiscal responsibility is for people to vote for it, which hasn't happened either. The reason for that is the conservative vision of fiscal responsibility has gradually become something fundamentally dishonest; essentially a cudgel to wield against Democratic domestic agendas that doesn't actually reflect policies Republican voters like. I think Republican voters realize this, which is why in 2016 they voted in the candidate who didn't even bother giving lip service to the idea.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:28 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Therefore, at a minimum any debt ceiling should be quoted as a percentage of GDP (which is what Europe is doing, i.e. the "Maastricht Criteria").


It needs to be something automatic. I am tired of this pointless drama every time the cap is hit. Just set it so it is out of the hands of hypocrites that claim they do the greatest thing ever by agreeing to pay the debts on the checks they already wrote.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:53 pm

Interesting, I thought that the adults back in the room meant no more drama.

Democrats control all levers of power, they can't blame the GOP for anything. They should find a compromise and stop with the extremism.

As for the debt ceiling being idiotic, I think its great we have it, so we hold our political elected leaders accountable to it. Not have a non-credit limit card to spend as they wish, without any disregard for the public who elected them in the first place, and who is also going to pay for it.

My personal feeling, I hope its not raised at all. Only if Democrats forget about the 3.5 Trillion bill they want to cram, if the idea is raising it so they can go ahead and keep the spending that is not really necessary going, GOP should not budge and allow the debt ceiling being raised. So I hope they hold the line, but I won't hold my breath.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:16 pm

The GOP is the party of "fiscal responsibility". Have them show the example next time they're in power.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:25 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Interesting, I thought that the adults back in the room meant no more drama.

Democrats control all levers of power, they can't blame the GOP for anything. They should find a compromise and stop with the extremism.

As for the debt ceiling being idiotic, I think its great we have it, so we hold our political elected leaders accountable to it. Not have a non-credit limit card to spend as they wish, without any disregard for the public who elected them in the first place, and who is also going to pay for it.

My personal feeling, I hope its not raised at all. Only if Democrats forget about the 3.5 Trillion bill they want to cram, if the idea is raising it so they can go ahead and keep the spending that is not really necessary going, GOP should not budge and allow the debt ceiling being raised. So I hope they hold the line, but I won't hold my breath.



I am not sure you understand the debt ceiling.

It is the amount of money the US Government can use to MEET it's already existing financial obligations. These are items already in law. SInce the US Government annually exceeds this by hundred of billions, the GOP would be saying that they want the US to default. At that point. Government employees don't get paid, Contractors don't get paid, and the US economy tanks.

It does nothing good for the US. The last time the GOP did this, and we had a government shutdown. It was egg in the face of the GOP
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:28 pm

casinterest wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Interesting, I thought that the adults back in the room meant no more drama.

Democrats control all levers of power, they can't blame the GOP for anything. They should find a compromise and stop with the extremism.

As for the debt ceiling being idiotic, I think its great we have it, so we hold our political elected leaders accountable to it. Not have a non-credit limit card to spend as they wish, without any disregard for the public who elected them in the first place, and who is also going to pay for it.

My personal feeling, I hope its not raised at all. Only if Democrats forget about the 3.5 Trillion bill they want to cram, if the idea is raising it so they can go ahead and keep the spending that is not really necessary going, GOP should not budge and allow the debt ceiling being raised. So I hope they hold the line, but I won't hold my breath.



I am not sure you understand the debt ceiling.

It is the amount of money the US Government can use to MEET it's already existing financial obligations. These are items already in law. SInce the US Government annually exceeds this by hundred of billions, the GOP would be saying that they want the US to default. At that point. Government employees don't get paid, Contractors don't get paid, and the US economy tanks.

It does nothing good for the US. The last time the GOP did this, and we had a government shutdown. It was egg in the face of the GOP


I think you are mistaking some things.

Debt ceiling and government shutdown are two different things.

The government shuts down if there is no budget funding government. That's another drama going on. If we don't fund it, yes it will shut down, albeit the military and such will continue.
The debt ceiling is a limit on how much money the federal government can borrow. If its not raised we go into default, can't pay the debts.

Two separate things.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:06 pm

The was no large scale GOP worry or indignation about it when Trump was in power (there were few honorable Republicans still opposed - Republicans that of course Trump castigated and attacked).

I don't want to raise it quite frankly, but it is what it is right now. We need to increase taxes (or just close loop holes) and cut spending. I don't know how that will ever happen.

Tugg
 
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casinterest
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:21 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Interesting, I thought that the adults back in the room meant no more drama.

Democrats control all levers of power, they can't blame the GOP for anything. They should find a compromise and stop with the extremism.

As for the debt ceiling being idiotic, I think its great we have it, so we hold our political elected leaders accountable to it. Not have a non-credit limit card to spend as they wish, without any disregard for the public who elected them in the first place, and who is also going to pay for it.

My personal feeling, I hope its not raised at all. Only if Democrats forget about the 3.5 Trillion bill they want to cram, if the idea is raising it so they can go ahead and keep the spending that is not really necessary going, GOP should not budge and allow the debt ceiling being raised. So I hope they hold the line, but I won't hold my breath.



I am not sure you understand the debt ceiling.

It is the amount of money the US Government can use to MEET it's already existing financial obligations. These are items already in law. SInce the US Government annually exceeds this by hundred of billions, the GOP would be saying that they want the US to default. At that point. Government employees don't get paid, Contractors don't get paid, and the US economy tanks.

It does nothing good for the US. The last time the GOP did this, and we had a government shutdown. It was egg in the face of the GOP


I think you are mistaking some things.

Debt ceiling and government shutdown are two different things.

The government shuts down if there is no budget funding government. That's another drama going on. If we don't fund it, yes it will shut down, albeit the military and such will continue.
The debt ceiling is a limit on how much money the federal government can borrow. If its not raised we go into default, can't pay the debts.

Two separate things.



Not two separate things in this case . You can have a Government shutdown without a Debt Ceiling issue. But if you have a debt ceiling issue, you can't pay anything the Government owes.
All salaries, All Bonds, etc. It is a defacto shutdown.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:49 pm

Tugger wrote:
I don't want to raise it quite frankly, but it is what it is right now. We need to increase taxes (or just close loop holes) and cut spending. I don't know how that will ever happen.

Tugg

On that world, my daughter has a pony.

We need to get the spending in check with a reasonable compromise. Neither party is acting like sober adults. Interest rates won't be low forever...

Lightsaber
 
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Aesma
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:52 pm

casinterest wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


I am not sure you understand the debt ceiling.

It is the amount of money the US Government can use to MEET it's already existing financial obligations. These are items already in law. SInce the US Government annually exceeds this by hundred of billions, the GOP would be saying that they want the US to default. At that point. Government employees don't get paid, Contractors don't get paid, and the US economy tanks.

It does nothing good for the US. The last time the GOP did this, and we had a government shutdown. It was egg in the face of the GOP


I think you are mistaking some things.

Debt ceiling and government shutdown are two different things.

The government shuts down if there is no budget funding government. That's another drama going on. If we don't fund it, yes it will shut down, albeit the military and such will continue.
The debt ceiling is a limit on how much money the federal government can borrow. If its not raised we go into default, can't pay the debts.

Two separate things.


Not two separate things in this case . You can have a Government shutdown without a Debt Ceiling issue. But if you have a debt ceiling issue, you can't pay anything the Government owes.
All salaries, All Bonds, etc. It is a defacto shutdown.


No, you should be able to pay some of the things. Paying the bonds first would be a good idea.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:59 pm

Aesma wrote:
casinterest wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

I think you are mistaking some things.

Debt ceiling and government shutdown are two different things.

The government shuts down if there is no budget funding government. That's another drama going on. If we don't fund it, yes it will shut down, albeit the military and such will continue.
The debt ceiling is a limit on how much money the federal government can borrow. If its not raised we go into default, can't pay the debts.

Two separate things.


Not two separate things in this case . You can have a Government shutdown without a Debt Ceiling issue. But if you have a debt ceiling issue, you can't pay anything the Government owes.
All salaries, All Bonds, etc. It is a defacto shutdown.


No, you should be able to pay some of the things. Paying the bonds first would be a good idea.


At the expense of the employees? It is a razor edge. One that the GOP never successfully navigates. They love all the posturing, but when it comes time to walk the walk they cave.

Sad thing is that in Trump's Term, all 3 times the debt celling needed to be raised the democrats were there to do it, and the GOP was happy to oblige. All 7.8 Trillion of it.

Now that Biden is in Office, the GOP thinks there is political gain to be made for failing to address the needs of Americans.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/24/politics ... index.html
 
hashtagconfused
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:00 pm

if the trump tax cuts are to be reversed, even if just part of them, it should be to curb the debt, not fund additional spending. we have heard for years that taxes need to be raised to eliminate the deficit so then would we add more spending that will then need to be covered. what is really needed is to make spending more efficient so that the money that is coming in can cover more items.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:39 pm

casinterest wrote:
At the expense of the employees? It is a razor edge.


If you default, you will have other problems. Pension funds crashing for a start.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:58 pm

lightsaber wrote:

We need to get the spending in check with a reasonable compromise. Neither party is acting like sober adults.

Lightsaber


I find myself loving Krysten Sinema more and more every day.
 
Ken777
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:57 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Democrats control all levers of power, they can't blame the GOP for anything. They should find a compromise and stop with the extremism.
[/quote="AirWorthy99"]

They can be blamed for the $7 to $8 Trillion they ran up under Trump. 93% for this spending is going to be for GOP Spending

AirWorthy99 wrote:
As for the debt ceiling being idiotic, I think its great we have it, so we hold our political elected leaders accountable to it. Not have a non-credit limit card to spend as they wish, without any disregard for the public who elected them in the first place, and who is also going to pay for it.

My personal feeling, I hope its not raised at all. Only if Democrats forget about the 3.5 Trillion bill they want to cram, if the idea is raising it so they can go ahead and keep the spending that is not really necessary going, GOP should not budge and allow the debt ceiling being raised. So I hope they hold the line, but I won't hold my breath.


There are two steps to clear out the Swamp: Ditch the filibuster and Dump the Debt Ceiling,ing. The GOP increases it as much as the Democrats. Unfortunately the shop's spending mainly help the top 1% . Ask the "helpers" at the grocery store how much their income was increases when the Trump Tac Cut kicked in. Minimum wage was totally ignored by Trump & Friends.

O)h, let's also tell those folks on minimum wage that they don't need any help with major medical bills. I have Chemo again tomorrow (set every 3 weeks) and with attaching to the port, drawing and analyzing blood and getting set up for the infusion the total bill for that and the bag of chemo will be $50,000+. The GOP is happy to let those people die so they can make more money. They are never going to say that Medicare and Medicaid need to be improved and the government needs to negotiate prescription drugs.
 
Ken777
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:58 pm

Ken777 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Democrats control all levers of power, they can't blame the GOP for anything. They should find a compromise and stop with the extremism.
[/quote="AirWorthy99"]

They can be blamed for the $7 to $8 Trillion they ran up under Trump. 93% for this spending is going to be for GOP Spending

AirWorthy99 wrote:
As for the debt ceiling being idiotic, I think its great we have it, so we hold our political elected leaders accountable to it. Not have a non-credit limit card to spend as they wish, without any disregard for the public who elected them in the first place, and who is also going to pay for it.

My personal feeling, I hope its not raised at all. Only if Democrats forget about the 3.5 Trillion bill they want to cram, if the idea is raising it so they can go ahead and keep the spending that is not really necessary going, GOP should not budge and allow the debt ceiling being raised. So I hope they hold the line, but I won't hold my breath.


There are two steps to clear out the Swamp: Ditch the filibuster and Dump the Debt Ceilinging. The GOP increases it as much as the Democrats. Unfortunately the shop's spending mainly help the top 1% . Ask the "helpers" at the grocery store how much their income was increases when the Trump Tac Cut kicked in. Minimum wage was totally ignored by Trump & Friends.

O)h, let's also tell those folks on minimum wage that they don't need any help with major medical bills. I have Chemo again tomorrow (set every 3 weeks) and with attaching to the port, drawing and analyzing blood and getting set up for the infusion the total bill for that and the bag of chemo will be $50,000+. The GOP is happy to let those people die so they can make more money. They are never going to say that Medicare and Medicaid need to be improved and the government needs to negotiate prescription drugs.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:37 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Interesting, I thought that the adults back in the room meant no more drama.

Democrats control all levers of power, they can't blame the GOP for anything. They should find a compromise and stop with the extremism.

As for the debt ceiling being idiotic, I think its great we have it, so we hold our political elected leaders accountable to it. Not have a non-credit limit card to spend as they wish, without any disregard for the public who elected them in the first place, and who is also going to pay for it.

My personal feeling, I hope its not raised at all. Only if Democrats forget about the 3.5 Trillion bill they want to cram, if the idea is raising it so they can go ahead and keep the spending that is not really necessary going, GOP should not budge and allow the debt ceiling being raised. So I hope they hold the line, but I won't hold my breath.


This take has zero credibility unless you were also vocally opposing the $7+ trillion in new spending under Trump at the same time corporate and HNW taxes were cut. That’s handing out a credit card to someone who took a 30% voluntary income cut.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:34 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Interesting, I thought that the adults back in the room meant no more drama.

Democrats control all levers of power, they can't blame the GOP for anything. They should find a compromise and stop with the extremism.

As for the debt ceiling being idiotic, I think its great we have it, so we hold our political elected leaders accountable to it. Not have a non-credit limit card to spend as they wish, without any disregard for the public who elected them in the first place, and who is also going to pay for it.

My personal feeling, I hope its not raised at all. Only if Democrats forget about the 3.5 Trillion bill they want to cram, if the idea is raising it so they can go ahead and keep the spending that is not really necessary going, GOP should not budge and allow the debt ceiling being raised. So I hope they hold the line, but I won't hold my breath.


This take has zero credibility unless you were also vocally opposing the $7+ trillion in new spending under Trump at the same time corporate and HNW taxes were cut. That’s handing out a credit card to someone who took a 30% voluntary income cut.


You are right about the zero credibility from many on the GOP, but you never saw me saying I did not care about the deficit when Trump was in power.

As for the 3.5 trillion, its a whole slew of new entitlements. They want to ram it without having a clear congressional mandate. Manchin seems to acknowledge this:

What I have made clear to the President and Democratic leaders is that spending trillions more on new and expanded government programs, when we can’t even pay for the essential programs, like Social Security and Medicare, is the definition of fiscal insanity. Suggesting that spending trillions more will not have an impact on inflation ignores the everyday reality that America’s families continue to pay an unavoidable inflation tax. Proposing a historical expansion of social programs while ignoring the fact that we are not in a recession and that millions of jobs remain open will only feed a dysfunction that could weaken our economic recovery.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/m ... term=first

I know Democrats are desperate to push this, because they know they will lose congress in 2022, but the 3.5 trillion bill is just the beginning of never ending budget deficits by expanding entitlements, that won't ever be offset even if they remove the Trump tax cuts. These entitlements will be impossible to actually phase out if they pass.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:03 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Interesting, I thought that the adults back in the room meant no more drama.

Democrats control all levers of power, they can't blame the GOP for anything. They should find a compromise and stop with the extremism.

As for the debt ceiling being idiotic, I think its great we have it, so we hold our political elected leaders accountable to it. Not have a non-credit limit card to spend as they wish, without any disregard for the public who elected them in the first place, and who is also going to pay for it.

My personal feeling, I hope its not raised at all. Only if Democrats forget about the 3.5 Trillion bill they want to cram, if the idea is raising it so they can go ahead and keep the spending that is not really necessary going, GOP should not budge and allow the debt ceiling being raised. So I hope they hold the line, but I won't hold my breath.


This take has zero credibility unless you were also vocally opposing the $7+ trillion in new spending under Trump at the same time corporate and HNW taxes were cut. That’s handing out a credit card to someone who took a 30% voluntary income cut.


You are right about the zero credibility from many on the GOP, but you never saw me saying I did not care about the deficit when Trump was in power.

As for the 3.5 trillion, its a whole slew of new entitlements. They want to ram it without having a clear congressional mandate. Manchin seems to acknowledge this:

What I have made clear to the President and Democratic leaders is that spending trillions more on new and expanded government programs, when we can’t even pay for the essential programs, like Social Security and Medicare, is the definition of fiscal insanity. Suggesting that spending trillions more will not have an impact on inflation ignores the everyday reality that America’s families continue to pay an unavoidable inflation tax. Proposing a historical expansion of social programs while ignoring the fact that we are not in a recession and that millions of jobs remain open will only feed a dysfunction that could weaken our economic recovery.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/m ... term=first

I know Democrats are desperate to push this, because they know they will lose congress in 2022, but the 3.5 trillion bill is just the beginning of never ending budget deficits by expanding entitlements, that won't ever be offset even if they remove the Trump tax cuts. These entitlements will be impossible to actually phase out if they pass.


I don't care who proposes it - someone needs to come out with a workable infrastructure plan. Whatever bill is proposed needs to be strictly that. It will not be cheap, but the country needs it.

Estimates range from $2.6T to $4.6T depending on period of time and targets for priority work completed.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN2AV0DD

https://collaborate.asce.org/ascegrandc ... 20unfunded.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:21 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

This take has zero credibility unless you were also vocally opposing the $7+ trillion in new spending under Trump at the same time corporate and HNW taxes were cut. That’s handing out a credit card to someone who took a 30% voluntary income cut.


You are right about the zero credibility from many on the GOP, but you never saw me saying I did not care about the deficit when Trump was in power.

As for the 3.5 trillion, its a whole slew of new entitlements. They want to ram it without having a clear congressional mandate. Manchin seems to acknowledge this:

What I have made clear to the President and Democratic leaders is that spending trillions more on new and expanded government programs, when we can’t even pay for the essential programs, like Social Security and Medicare, is the definition of fiscal insanity. Suggesting that spending trillions more will not have an impact on inflation ignores the everyday reality that America’s families continue to pay an unavoidable inflation tax. Proposing a historical expansion of social programs while ignoring the fact that we are not in a recession and that millions of jobs remain open will only feed a dysfunction that could weaken our economic recovery.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/m ... term=first

I know Democrats are desperate to push this, because they know they will lose congress in 2022, but the 3.5 trillion bill is just the beginning of never ending budget deficits by expanding entitlements, that won't ever be offset even if they remove the Trump tax cuts. These entitlements will be impossible to actually phase out if they pass.


I don't care who proposes it - someone needs to come out with a workable infrastructure plan. Whatever bill is proposed needs to be strictly that. It will not be cheap, but the country needs it.

Estimates range from $2.6T to $4.6T depending on period of time and targets for priority work completed.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN2AV0DD

https://collaborate.asce.org/ascegrandc ... 20unfunded.


I don't think you will find too many people who are opposed to an actual infrastructure deal. Problem is the current bill is jam packed with other stuff and is has a very unclear financial basis. There is a zero chance the deal would not cost a dime per what Biden says. And since he keeps touting that, he looses credibility and people lose faith in the bill. I would venture a guess that a large majority of American understand that this bill is going to cost money, so why try to lie? I am tired of both side of the aisle straight up lying and pretending Americans are too dumb to see through their BS.

If politicians truly want an infrastructure deal, they need to strip out all of the other stuff not related to infrastructure and maybe pare down the amount spent along with an actual finance mechanism. It is too easy for the corrupt politicians to slip their pork into these humongous bills. I personally think bills should be relatively small and focus on singular issues. Congress likes them to be tens of thousands of pages so no one notices the crap they put in there. Both sides like the status quo so neither side can be called out on it.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:50 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
It is too easy for the corrupt politicians to slip their pork into these humongous bills. I personally think bills should be relatively small and focus on singular issues.


Very difficult so long as K Street remains a major influence on the legislative process. Riders exist because members of Congress need them there to get anything passed.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:09 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
It is too easy for the corrupt politicians to slip their pork into these humongous bills. I personally think bills should be relatively small and focus on singular issues.


Very difficult so long as K Street remains a major influence on the legislative process. Riders exist because members of Congress need them there to get anything passed.


If something is important enough, it shouldn't need to be a rider. Most riders are just pork for individual representatives and senators. If the process is that broke, maybe its time the Citizens demand change, our Constitution allows for us to do this via a Convention of States.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:16 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
It is too easy for the corrupt politicians to slip their pork into these humongous bills. I personally think bills should be relatively small and focus on singular issues.


Very difficult so long as K Street remains a major influence on the legislative process. Riders exist because members of Congress need them there to get anything passed.


If something is important enough, it shouldn't need to be a rider. Most riders are just pork for individual representatives and senators. If the process is that broke, maybe its time the Citizens demand change, our Constitution allows for us to do this via a Convention of States.


I think one of the biggest problems with the corruption in this country is how all power is concentrated in DC. Is more easy to corrupt a group of powerful politicians in one city, than go after 50 states individually. States interests and issues are all decided by DC.

All of these social programs, all of this waste should be delegated to the States, as it was originally proposed by the founding fathers. DC has too much power, and its a clear example of how much interest groups have set up camp in one place, as one recently said, "Washington DC is occupied territory by the lobbyist and powerful interest". Be that industrialists, corporations, wall street, employee unions etc you name it.

The main purpose of the federal government was, defense. That was the entire point. It has become one giant administrative state with thousands of interest groups encamped all vying for a share of the pie and embedding among the un-appointed bureaucrats who now have more power than the elected politicians.

This is the fault of both parties.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:28 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Very difficult so long as K Street remains a major influence on the legislative process. Riders exist because members of Congress need them there to get anything passed.


If something is important enough, it shouldn't need to be a rider. Most riders are just pork for individual representatives and senators. If the process is that broke, maybe its time the Citizens demand change, our Constitution allows for us to do this via a Convention of States.


I think one of the biggest problems with the corruption in this country is how all power is concentrated in DC. Is more easy to corrupt a group of powerful politicians in one city, than go after 50 states individually. States interests and issues are all decided by DC.

All of these social programs, all of this waste should be delegated to the States, as it was originally proposed by the founding fathers. DC has too much power, and its a clear example of how much interest groups have set up camp in one place, as one recently said, "Washington DC is occupied territory by the lobbyist and powerful interest". Be that industrialists, corporations, wall street, employee unions etc you name it.

The main purpose of the federal government was, defense. That was the entire point. It has become one giant administrative state with thousands of interest groups encamped all vying for a share of the pie and embedding among the un-appointed bureaucrats who now have more power than the elected politicians.

This is the fault of both parties.


This is a capitalist country -> power = $$$. Everyone knows this. If you want to remove that influence from what happens in DC, you need to remove the ability of the ‘DC system’ to function in the manner it does.

This is proposed by many libertarians: a pool of public money that is used for all major elections. Candidates have access to the same amount of funds for each position sought and have to spend them wisely in order to win - no more lobbyists or shadow war chests. No more being re-elected despite poor performance with help of PACs who help with PR. This promotes the idea that the best candidate wins and is not beholden to interests - but would be a dramatic departure from how power is currently distributed.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1423
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:35 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

If something is important enough, it shouldn't need to be a rider. Most riders are just pork for individual representatives and senators. If the process is that broke, maybe its time the Citizens demand change, our Constitution allows for us to do this via a Convention of States.


I think one of the biggest problems with the corruption in this country is how all power is concentrated in DC. Is more easy to corrupt a group of powerful politicians in one city, than go after 50 states individually. States interests and issues are all decided by DC.

All of these social programs, all of this waste should be delegated to the States, as it was originally proposed by the founding fathers. DC has too much power, and its a clear example of how much interest groups have set up camp in one place, as one recently said, "Washington DC is occupied territory by the lobbyist and powerful interest". Be that industrialists, corporations, wall street, employee unions etc you name it.

The main purpose of the federal government was, defense. That was the entire point. It has become one giant administrative state with thousands of interest groups encamped all vying for a share of the pie and embedding among the un-appointed bureaucrats who now have more power than the elected politicians.

This is the fault of both parties.


This is a capitalist country -> power = $$$. Everyone knows this. If you want to remove that influence from what happens in DC, you need to remove the ability of the ‘DC system’ to function in the manner it does.

This is proposed by many libertarians: a pool of public money that is used for all major elections. Candidates have access to the same amount of funds for each position sought and have to spend them wisely in order to win - no more lobbyists or shadow war chests. No more being re-elected despite poor performance with help of PACs who help with PR. This promotes the idea that the best candidate wins and is not beholden to interests - but would be a dramatic departure from how power is currently distributed.


It is a capitalist country, but also its a Federal Republic. Concentrating power in just one place, goes completely against this being a Federal Republic. State capitals should decide what's best for their state, and how they will raise and spend their money. The Federal government's role should solely be defense. The States should take care of the rest and be held into account by their respective citizens.

Campaign finance is just one step, but removing all of this power DC has, would be what would reduce corruption in this country. Many of the wealthiest zip codes in this country are all in the DC area. That tells you something.

The possibility of this happening I know is very low, but that should cure the problem.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16574
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:43 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Campaign finance is just one step, but removing all of this power DC has, would be what would reduce corruption in this country. Many of the wealthiest zip codes in this country are all in the DC area. That tells you something.


Not sure where you got that information, but that statement is simply not accurate. Out of the top 50 wealthiest ZIP codes in the country, not one is in the DC metro area:

https://www.zipdatamaps.com/national/ec ... ted-states
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1423
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:47 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Campaign finance is just one step, but removing all of this power DC has, would be what would reduce corruption in this country. Many of the wealthiest zip codes in this country are all in the DC area. That tells you something.


Not sure where you got that information, but that statement is simply not accurate. Out of the top 50 wealthiest ZIP codes in the country, not one is in the DC metro area:

https://www.zipdatamaps.com/national/ec ... ted-states


Wrong metric, meant wage or salaries by State. DC tops it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... _mean_wage
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 14173
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:47 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

I think one of the biggest problems with the corruption in this country is how all power is concentrated in DC. Is more easy to corrupt a group of powerful politicians in one city, than go after 50 states individually. States interests and issues are all decided by DC.

All of these social programs, all of this waste should be delegated to the States, as it was originally proposed by the founding fathers. DC has too much power, and its a clear example of how much interest groups have set up camp in one place, as one recently said, "Washington DC is occupied territory by the lobbyist and powerful interest". Be that industrialists, corporations, wall street, employee unions etc you name it.

The main purpose of the federal government was, defense. That was the entire point. It has become one giant administrative state with thousands of interest groups encamped all vying for a share of the pie and embedding among the un-appointed bureaucrats who now have more power than the elected politicians.

This is the fault of both parties.


This is a capitalist country -> power = $$$. Everyone knows this. If you want to remove that influence from what happens in DC, you need to remove the ability of the ‘DC system’ to function in the manner it does.

This is proposed by many libertarians: a pool of public money that is used for all major elections. Candidates have access to the same amount of funds for each position sought and have to spend them wisely in order to win - no more lobbyists or shadow war chests. No more being re-elected despite poor performance with help of PACs who help with PR. This promotes the idea that the best candidate wins and is not beholden to interests - but would be a dramatic departure from how power is currently distributed.


It is a capitalist country, but also its a Federal Republic. Concentrating power in just one place, goes completely against this being a Federal Republic. State capitals should decide what's best for their state, and how they will raise and spend their money. The Federal government's role should solely be defense. The States should take care of the rest and be held into account by their respective citizens.

Campaign finance is just one step, but removing all of this power DC has, would be what would reduce corruption in this country. Many of the wealthiest zip codes in this country are all in the DC area. That tells you something.

The possibility of this happening I know is very low, but that should cure the problem.


DC has a lot of power, but it does not have all the power. The budget for DC includes Social Security, Medicare, and other retirement benefits, along with the Defense Spending that account for over 2/3 of US spending. Those are federal responsibilities

The states don't handle those items. The federal government also has a distinct advantage over the states. They create money out of thin air when needed. That is something the states cannot do.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14173
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:50 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Campaign finance is just one step, but removing all of this power DC has, would be what would reduce corruption in this country. Many of the wealthiest zip codes in this country are all in the DC area. That tells you something.


Not sure where you got that information, but that statement is simply not accurate. Out of the top 50 wealthiest ZIP codes in the country, not one is in the DC metro area:

https://www.zipdatamaps.com/national/ec ... ted-states


Wrong metric, meant wage or salaries by State. DC tops it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... _mean_wage



DC has tons of lawyers, politicians, and lobbyists along with government contractors stationed there to collect money. It is actually a city as well. So instead of comparing it to states. Compare it to cities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... nal_income
 
737307
Topic Author
Posts: 2945
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:52 pm

casinterest wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

This is a capitalist country -> power = $$$. Everyone knows this. If you want to remove that influence from what happens in DC, you need to remove the ability of the ‘DC system’ to function in the manner it does.

This is proposed by many libertarians: a pool of public money that is used for all major elections. Candidates have access to the same amount of funds for each position sought and have to spend them wisely in order to win - no more lobbyists or shadow war chests. No more being re-elected despite poor performance with help of PACs who help with PR. This promotes the idea that the best candidate wins and is not beholden to interests - but would be a dramatic departure from how power is currently distributed.


It is a capitalist country, but also its a Federal Republic. Concentrating power in just one place, goes completely against this being a Federal Republic. State capitals should decide what's best for their state, and how they will raise and spend their money. The Federal government's role should solely be defense. The States should take care of the rest and be held into account by their respective citizens.

Campaign finance is just one step, but removing all of this power DC has, would be what would reduce corruption in this country. Many of the wealthiest zip codes in this country are all in the DC area. That tells you something.

The possibility of this happening I know is very low, but that should cure the problem.


DC has a lot of power, but it does not have all the power. The budget for DC includes Social Security, Medicare, and other retirement benefits, along with the Defense Spending that account for over 2/3 of US spending.


Are you sure the US government spends 2/3 on defense? Or are you talking about something else?
Because according to his piechart, defense is 3.4% of GDP.

Image

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governmen ... ted_States
Last edited by 737307 on Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 14173
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:54 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

It is a capitalist country, but also its a Federal Republic. Concentrating power in just one place, goes completely against this being a Federal Republic. State capitals should decide what's best for their state, and how they will raise and spend their money. The Federal government's role should solely be defense. The States should take care of the rest and be held into account by their respective citizens.

Campaign finance is just one step, but removing all of this power DC has, would be what would reduce corruption in this country. Many of the wealthiest zip codes in this country are all in the DC area. That tells you something.

The possibility of this happening I know is very low, but that should cure the problem.


DC has a lot of power, but it does not have all the power. The budget for DC includes Social Security, Medicare, and other retirement benefits, along with the Defense Spending that account for over 2/3 of US spending.


Are you sure the US government spends 2/3 on defense? Or are you talking about something else?
Because according to his piechart, defense is 10% of GDP.

Image

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governmen ... ted_States



Maybe you missed this part.

"The budget for DC includes Social Security, Medicare, and other retirement benefits, along with the Defense Spending "

//Edit
Also don't go looking at 2020 for the full breakdown,. you are going to get dilution thanks to Covid recovery.
Last edited by casinterest on Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
737307
Topic Author
Posts: 2945
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:56 pm

casinterest wrote:
//Edit
Also don't go looking at 2020 for the full breakdown,. you are going to get dilution thanks to Covid recovery.


Perhaps you could be so nice to find a piechart for 2019.
Last edited by 737307 on Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:58 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Maybe you missed this part.

"The budget for DC includes Social Security, Medicare, and other retirement benefits, along with the Defense Spending "


You mean the District itself? I guess I misinterpreted "DC".


In the US we refer to DC as the fed government, or as a city. You can take it either way.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:58 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Maybe you missed this part.

"The budget for DC includes Social Security, Medicare, and other retirement benefits, along with the Defense Spending "


You mean the District itself? I guess I misinterpreted "DC".


Aye yai yai, no. Defense spending is the last item in a list of expenditures in that sentence. Together they comprise 2/3. Clear?
 
737307
Topic Author
Posts: 2945
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:59 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Maybe you missed this part.

"The budget for DC includes Social Security, Medicare, and other retirement benefits, along with the Defense Spending "


You mean the District itself? I guess I misinterpreted "DC".


Aye yai yai, no. Defense spending is the last item in a list of expenditures in that sentence. Together they comprise 2/3. Clear?


I am getting really confused now... :?
So, the new piechart I posted is not correct?
Last edited by 737307 on Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1423
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:00 pm

casinterest wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Not sure where you got that information, but that statement is simply not accurate. Out of the top 50 wealthiest ZIP codes in the country, not one is in the DC metro area:

https://www.zipdatamaps.com/national/ec ... ted-states


Wrong metric, meant wage or salaries by State. DC tops it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... _mean_wage



DC has tons of lawyers, politicians, and lobbyists along with government contractors stationed there to collect money. It is actually a city as well. So instead of comparing it to states. Compare it to cities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... nal_income


Have you been to DC? have you seen the poverty? these people you mention are the few powerful who control the federal government and make it what it is today. A giant wasteful administrative state that shouldn't have been.

Everyone living in DC making that money aren't just people who come from California or Texas willing to enjoy the beautiful capital of the country. Its because that's where all the power is concentrated. And they want part on it.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:07 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Wrong metric, meant wage or salaries by State. DC tops it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... _mean_wage



DC has tons of lawyers, politicians, and lobbyists along with government contractors stationed there to collect money. It is actually a city as well. So instead of comparing it to states. Compare it to cities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... nal_income


Have you been to DC? have you seen the poverty? these people you mention are the few powerful who control the federal government and make it what it is today. A giant wasteful administrative state that shouldn't have been.

Everyone living in DC making that money aren't just people who come from California or Texas willing to enjoy the beautiful capital of the country. Its because that's where all the power is concentrated. And they want part on it.


I have been to DC? Have you? Have you gone to the surrounding towns and cities instead of concentrating on East DC? Have you gone to West DC? There is tons of money in that city and the surrounding areas. A lot of it is federal contractors that give private jobs world wide.

Why do you claim wasteful? They run the federal government that looks out for ALL US CITIZENS. Not selective ones like certain states seem to think should occur. DC is one of the oldest cities in the US, and it has inherited as well as generated wealth. It has infrastructure, culture,. and living conditions that are amicable for many people.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:15 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
//Edit
Also don't go looking at 2020 for the full breakdown,. you are going to get dilution thanks to Covid recovery.


Perhaps you could be so nice to find a piechart for 2019.


Here's a 2019 chart from Politifact. Nothing to be confused about, as cas said, spending totals 2/3 on a combination of defense, Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security - 69% to be exact:

Image
 
bpatus297
Posts: 334
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:50 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Very difficult so long as K Street remains a major influence on the legislative process. Riders exist because members of Congress need them there to get anything passed.


If something is important enough, it shouldn't need to be a rider. Most riders are just pork for individual representatives and senators. If the process is that broke, maybe its time the Citizens demand change, our Constitution allows for us to do this via a Convention of States.


I think one of the biggest problems with the corruption in this country is how all power is concentrated in DC. Is more easy to corrupt a group of powerful politicians in one city, than go after 50 states individually. States interests and issues are all decided by DC.

All of these social programs, all of this waste should be delegated to the States, as it was originally proposed by the founding fathers. DC has too much power, and its a clear example of how much interest groups have set up camp in one place, as one recently said, "Washington DC is occupied territory by the lobbyist and powerful interest". Be that industrialists, corporations, wall street, employee unions etc you name it.

The main purpose of the federal government was, defense. That was the entire point. It has become one giant administrative state with thousands of interest groups encamped all vying for a share of the pie and embedding among the un-appointed bureaucrats who now have more power than the elected politicians.

This is the fault of both parties.


Agree 100%
 
bpatus297
Posts: 334
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:51 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

If something is important enough, it shouldn't need to be a rider. Most riders are just pork for individual representatives and senators. If the process is that broke, maybe its time the Citizens demand change, our Constitution allows for us to do this via a Convention of States.


I think one of the biggest problems with the corruption in this country is how all power is concentrated in DC. Is more easy to corrupt a group of powerful politicians in one city, than go after 50 states individually. States interests and issues are all decided by DC.

All of these social programs, all of this waste should be delegated to the States, as it was originally proposed by the founding fathers. DC has too much power, and its a clear example of how much interest groups have set up camp in one place, as one recently said, "Washington DC is occupied territory by the lobbyist and powerful interest". Be that industrialists, corporations, wall street, employee unions etc you name it.

The main purpose of the federal government was, defense. That was the entire point. It has become one giant administrative state with thousands of interest groups encamped all vying for a share of the pie and embedding among the un-appointed bureaucrats who now have more power than the elected politicians.

This is the fault of both parties.


This is a capitalist country -> power = $$$. Everyone knows this. If you want to remove that influence from what happens in DC, you need to remove the ability of the ‘DC system’ to function in the manner it does.

This is proposed by many libertarians: a pool of public money that is used for all major elections. Candidates have access to the same amount of funds for each position sought and have to spend them wisely in order to win - no more lobbyists or shadow war chests. No more being re-elected despite poor performance with help of PACs who help with PR. This promotes the idea that the best candidate wins and is not beholden to interests - but would be a dramatic departure from how power is currently distributed.


I 100% support this type of election reform.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 334
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:57 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Wrong metric, meant wage or salaries by State. DC tops it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... _mean_wage



DC has tons of lawyers, politicians, and lobbyists along with government contractors stationed there to collect money. It is actually a city as well. So instead of comparing it to states. Compare it to cities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... nal_income


Have you been to DC? have you seen the poverty? these people you mention are the few powerful who control the federal government and make it what it is today. A giant wasteful administrative state that shouldn't have been.

Everyone living in DC making that money aren't just people who come from California or Texas willing to enjoy the beautiful capital of the country. Its because that's where all the power is concentrated. And they want part on it.


Most of those people "lawyers, politicians, etc." don't technically reside in DC so they are not included in the numbers for DC. Most claim somewhere else as their residence. Their DC crash pad is just a place to sleep while in town.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:29 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


DC has tons of lawyers, politicians, and lobbyists along with government contractors stationed there to collect money. It is actually a city as well. So instead of comparing it to states. Compare it to cities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... nal_income


Have you been to DC? have you seen the poverty? these people you mention are the few powerful who control the federal government and make it what it is today. A giant wasteful administrative state that shouldn't have been.

Everyone living in DC making that money aren't just people who come from California or Texas willing to enjoy the beautiful capital of the country. Its because that's where all the power is concentrated. And they want part on it.


Most of those people "lawyers, politicians, etc." don't technically reside in DC so they are not included in the numbers for DC. Most claim somewhere else as their residence. Their DC crash pad is just a place to sleep while in town.



Those that are counted in the income report live in the city. You would be amazed at some of the old money in that city as well.
 
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seb146
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:01 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Interesting, I thought that the adults back in the room meant no more drama.

Democrats control all levers of power, they can't blame the GOP for anything. They should find a compromise and stop with the extremism.

As for the debt ceiling being idiotic, I think its great we have it, so we hold our political elected leaders accountable to it. Not have a non-credit limit card to spend as they wish, without any disregard for the public who elected them in the first place, and who is also going to pay for it.

My personal feeling, I hope its not raised at all. Only if Democrats forget about the 3.5 Trillion bill they want to cram, if the idea is raising it so they can go ahead and keep the spending that is not really necessary going, GOP should not budge and allow the debt ceiling being raised. So I hope they hold the line, but I won't hold my breath.


It is.... wait for it.... REPUBLICANS blocking any talk of raising the debt ceiling. REPUBLICANS refuse to hold any kind of vote or talks or anything on raising the debt ceiling. So, yes, this is squarely on REPUBLICANS.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/government ... lock-bill/

The title? REPUBLICANS block debt ceiling bill

And, let's not forget, Republicans want to spend 3.5 trillion in infrastructure AND passed tax cuts that were not paid for when they controlled everything.
 
apodino
Posts: 4094
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:21 pm

seb146 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Interesting, I thought that the adults back in the room meant no more drama.

Democrats control all levers of power, they can't blame the GOP for anything. They should find a compromise and stop with the extremism.

As for the debt ceiling being idiotic, I think its great we have it, so we hold our political elected leaders accountable to it. Not have a non-credit limit card to spend as they wish, without any disregard for the public who elected them in the first place, and who is also going to pay for it.

My personal feeling, I hope its not raised at all. Only if Democrats forget about the 3.5 Trillion bill they want to cram, if the idea is raising it so they can go ahead and keep the spending that is not really necessary going, GOP should not budge and allow the debt ceiling being raised. So I hope they hold the line, but I won't hold my breath.


It is.... wait for it.... REPUBLICANS blocking any talk of raising the debt ceiling. REPUBLICANS refuse to hold any kind of vote or talks or anything on raising the debt ceiling. So, yes, this is squarely on REPUBLICANS.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/government ... lock-bill/

The title? REPUBLICANS block debt ceiling bill

And, let's not forget, Republicans want to spend 3.5 trillion in infrastructure AND passed tax cuts that were not paid for when they controlled everything.


I agree that the Republicans have no interest in helping out on this issue. But here is the bottom line Seb. As AirWorthy rightly says, the Democrats have a majority in the House, a Majority in the Senate by way of Harris, and the White House. They should not even need republican help to get this done. Schumer is the Majority leader and he, not Mitch McConnell can decide what comes up for a vote. He doesn't need republican help for that. Furthermore there are a few other things you do not acknowledge.

1. The Democrats could eliminate the filibuster and continue to choose not to do so. Yes I get that most of the is Manchin and Sinema using it for power, but certainly there are ways leadership can apply pressure to these senators isn't there?
2. When the Covid relief bill passed under reconciliation earlier this year, the Democrats could have easily included a debt ceiling increase in it, and did not do so. That is on Schumer and Pelosi, not the GOP.
3. Biden doesn't even need congress to act. He can mint a coin that would deal with the issue immediately. And chooses not to do so.
4. Harris can always overrule the parliamentarian on anything, but chooses not to do so. Furthermore, the dems could fire her the way McConnell and the GOP fired Bob Dove when he didn't give them what they wanted. Again, they choose not to do so.
5. For some reason, there is a hyper focus on the Infrastructure bill and the Reconciliation bill this week. Even though these bills are needed, passing them is not as critical as the Debt Ceiling. But the focus seems to be more on the former and not the latter.
6. Where the hell is Biden in all of this? I don't see him putting much pressure on Congress or using the bully pulpit at all.

Seb you are 100 percent correct in that the GOP is not helping the situation at all. But for once, can you take off your partisan glasses and start criticizing your own party for once. They control everything. They have the ability to get this done. And for whatever reason, they are having a hard time governing and getting it done. This is not on a GOP that is in the minority, this is on Biden, Schumer, and Pelosi for failing to lead.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1370
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Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:58 am

casinterest wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


DC has tons of lawyers, politicians, and lobbyists along with government contractors stationed there to collect money. It is actually a city as well. So instead of comparing it to states. Compare it to cities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... nal_income


Have you been to DC? have you seen the poverty? these people you mention are the few powerful who control the federal government and make it what it is today. A giant wasteful administrative state that shouldn't have been.

Everyone living in DC making that money aren't just people who come from California or Texas willing to enjoy the beautiful capital of the country. Its because that's where all the power is concentrated. And they want part on it.


I have been to DC? Have you? Have you gone to the surrounding towns and cities instead of concentrating on East DC? Have you gone to West DC? There is tons of money in that city and the surrounding areas. A lot of it is federal contractors that give private jobs world wide.

Why do you claim wasteful? They run the federal government that looks out for ALL US CITIZENS. Not selective ones like certain states seem to think should occur. DC is one of the oldest cities in the US, and it has inherited as well as generated wealth. It has infrastructure, culture,. and living conditions that are amicable for many people.


DC area is absurdly wealthy and quite stylish. They massively tax the country AND also have a magic license to create US dollars at the Federal Reserve. You would certainly expect DC to be wealthy, and it is.

But it ISN’T a free lunch. When inflation runs at (say) 10% per year, people at the margins are plunged into crisis. Apartment rents went up 15% versus last year, and house prices about the same. Car prices same.

Printing money is a tax on everyone. It can mean you can afford a smaller apartment or no apartment. Inflation has led to full social breakdowns. It could break the US government. People just assume we can magically borrow money. That is ignorant of the singular privilege the US has had. If we abuse our borrowing privileges, we wake up to a “real world” in which we cannot borrow (like Greece, like Argentina, USSR, etc).
Last edited by LCDFlight on Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16574
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:05 am

LCDFlight wrote:
DC area is absurdly wealthy and quite stylish. They massively tax the country AND also have a magic license to create US dollars at the Federal Reserve. You would certainly expect DC to be wealthy, and it is.


People are generally comfortable and there are quite a few wealthy people in DC metro, but again this take is OTT. 'Absurdly' wealthy is hardly befitting. Being in the orbit of federal government contracting and lobbying certainly pays over six figures in most cases, and the folks running lobbying firms are easily into eight figure net worth, but none of this compares to the wealth generated in finance and tech. Like not even remotely. It's not Seattle, it's not Boston, it's not NYC, it's not LA.

There are 3 US cities on the world's top 10 list of billionaire cities, and DC aint one of them:

https://www.businessinsider.com/where-d ... dditions-9
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1370
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:29 am

Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
DC area is absurdly wealthy and quite stylish. They massively tax the country AND also have a magic license to create US dollars at the Federal Reserve. You would certainly expect DC to be wealthy, and it is.


People are generally comfortable and there are quite a few wealthy people in DC metro, but again this take is OTT. 'Absurdly' wealthy is hardly befitting. Being in the orbit of federal government contracting and lobbying certainly pays over six figures in most cases, and the folks running lobbying firms are easily into eight figure net worth, but none of this compares to the wealth generated in finance and tech. Like not even remotely. It's not Seattle, it's not Boston, it's not NYC, it's not LA.

There are 3 US cities on the world's top 10 list of billionaire cities, and DC aint one of them:

https://www.businessinsider.com/where-d ... dditions-9


Looking at billionaires is fun, but I think millionaires have a bigger effect on a city. median DC MSA household income is a little higher than Boston and Seattle metro areas (latest numbers appear to be $122k median household in DC Metro). LA and NYC are lower at 80-85k. I agree not many billionaires in DC area, but it is among the most affluent cities on Earth.

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