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Aaron747
Posts: 16449
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:33 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
DC area is absurdly wealthy and quite stylish. They massively tax the country AND also have a magic license to create US dollars at the Federal Reserve. You would certainly expect DC to be wealthy, and it is.


People are generally comfortable and there are quite a few wealthy people in DC metro, but again this take is OTT. 'Absurdly' wealthy is hardly befitting. Being in the orbit of federal government contracting and lobbying certainly pays over six figures in most cases, and the folks running lobbying firms are easily into eight figure net worth, but none of this compares to the wealth generated in finance and tech. Like not even remotely. It's not Seattle, it's not Boston, it's not NYC, it's not LA.

There are 3 US cities on the world's top 10 list of billionaire cities, and DC aint one of them:

https://www.businessinsider.com/where-d ... dditions-9


Looking at billionaires is fun, but I think millionaires have a bigger effect on a city. median DC MSA household income is a little higher than Boston and Seattle metro areas (latest numbers appear to be $122k median household in DC Metro). LA and NYC are lower at 80-85k. I agree not many billionaires in DC area, but it is among the most affluent cities on Earth.


Again household income is just as much fun as billionaires. Differences in COL between US MSAs make it a poor metric, as was posted earlier, PCPI is a better metric for metropolitan comparison. On that score, DC is middle of the pack in the US top 10, and falls behind Seattle and Boston.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... nal_income
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14145
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:19 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
casinterest wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Have you been to DC? have you seen the poverty? these people you mention are the few powerful who control the federal government and make it what it is today. A giant wasteful administrative state that shouldn't have been.

Everyone living in DC making that money aren't just people who come from California or Texas willing to enjoy the beautiful capital of the country. Its because that's where all the power is concentrated. And they want part on it.


I have been to DC? Have you? Have you gone to the surrounding towns and cities instead of concentrating on East DC? Have you gone to West DC? There is tons of money in that city and the surrounding areas. A lot of it is federal contractors that give private jobs world wide.

Why do you claim wasteful? They run the federal government that looks out for ALL US CITIZENS. Not selective ones like certain states seem to think should occur. DC is one of the oldest cities in the US, and it has inherited as well as generated wealth. It has infrastructure, culture,. and living conditions that are amicable for many people.


DC area is absurdly wealthy and quite stylish. They massively tax the country AND also have a magic license to create US dollars at the Federal Reserve. You would certainly expect DC to be wealthy, and it is.

But it ISN’T a free lunch. When inflation runs at (say) 10% per year, people at the margins are plunged into crisis. Apartment rents went up 15% versus last year, and house prices about the same. Car prices same.

Printing money is a tax on everyone. It can mean you can afford a smaller apartment or no apartment. Inflation has led to full social breakdowns. It could break the US government. People just assume we can magically borrow money. That is ignorant of the singular privilege the US has had. If we abuse our borrowing privileges, we wake up to a “real world” in which we cannot borrow (like Greece, like Argentina, USSR, etc).



The DC area is the seat of the Federal Government. It is where business and government meet to provide for all Americans. Don't forget many technical companies got started and work around DC as well to provide for all Americans. Don't blame the DC area for taxing the country. That is done by all the representatives to pay for services. Remember, over 2/3 of payments and arguably all of income tax/ssi receipts go to pay for Defense, Social Security and Medical Care.

The difference between Greece and The US is that the US dollar is a global currency. If we print too much, yes it risks inflation, but everything will inflate with it. We need to remove the debt ceiling, because as inflation hits, we will hit it more often than not, and that is fine. The dollar replaced Gold, and Gold was always mineable, just not east to store. Think of the government printing money as mining it.


Also remember, how much does 1-2 trillion a year matter, when the net worth of assets in the US is approaching 200 Trillion. 2020 and 2021 hopefully are bits of an anomaly. It is a big sum, but it is less than 1% of US assets.
https://www.usdebtclock.org/

Take a look at the average taxes paid by income

https://www.businessinsider.com/persona ... -by-income
 
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seb146
Posts: 24075
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:22 pm

apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Interesting, I thought that the adults back in the room meant no more drama.

Democrats control all levers of power, they can't blame the GOP for anything. They should find a compromise and stop with the extremism.

As for the debt ceiling being idiotic, I think its great we have it, so we hold our political elected leaders accountable to it. Not have a non-credit limit card to spend as they wish, without any disregard for the public who elected them in the first place, and who is also going to pay for it.

My personal feeling, I hope its not raised at all. Only if Democrats forget about the 3.5 Trillion bill they want to cram, if the idea is raising it so they can go ahead and keep the spending that is not really necessary going, GOP should not budge and allow the debt ceiling being raised. So I hope they hold the line, but I won't hold my breath.


It is.... wait for it.... REPUBLICANS blocking any talk of raising the debt ceiling. REPUBLICANS refuse to hold any kind of vote or talks or anything on raising the debt ceiling. So, yes, this is squarely on REPUBLICANS.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/government ... lock-bill/

The title? REPUBLICANS block debt ceiling bill

And, let's not forget, Republicans want to spend 3.5 trillion in infrastructure AND passed tax cuts that were not paid for when they controlled everything.


I agree that the Republicans have no interest in helping out on this issue. But here is the bottom line Seb. As AirWorthy rightly says, the Democrats have a majority in the House, a Majority in the Senate by way of Harris, and the White House. They should not even need republican help to get this done. Schumer is the Majority leader and he, not Mitch McConnell can decide what comes up for a vote. He doesn't need republican help for that. Furthermore there are a few other things you do not acknowledge.

1. The Democrats could eliminate the filibuster and continue to choose not to do so. Yes I get that most of the is Manchin and Sinema using it for power, but certainly there are ways leadership can apply pressure to these senators isn't there?
2. When the Covid relief bill passed under reconciliation earlier this year, the Democrats could have easily included a debt ceiling increase in it, and did not do so. That is on Schumer and Pelosi, not the GOP.
3. Biden doesn't even need congress to act. He can mint a coin that would deal with the issue immediately. And chooses not to do so.
4. Harris can always overrule the parliamentarian on anything, but chooses not to do so. Furthermore, the dems could fire her the way McConnell and the GOP fired Bob Dove when he didn't give them what they wanted. Again, they choose not to do so.
5. For some reason, there is a hyper focus on the Infrastructure bill and the Reconciliation bill this week. Even though these bills are needed, passing them is not as critical as the Debt Ceiling. But the focus seems to be more on the former and not the latter.
6. Where the hell is Biden in all of this? I don't see him putting much pressure on Congress or using the bully pulpit at all.

Seb you are 100 percent correct in that the GOP is not helping the situation at all. But for once, can you take off your partisan glasses and start criticizing your own party for once. They control everything. They have the ability to get this done. And for whatever reason, they are having a hard time governing and getting it done. This is not on a GOP that is in the minority, this is on Biden, Schumer, and Pelosi for failing to lead.


How are they not leading? Because two Democrats align with Republicans? They have had pressure put on them. Removing the filibuster will simply give control back to Republicans as both Manchin and Sinema would side with Republicans.

Democrats are playing chess, Republicans are playing Red Rover.
 
apodino
Posts: 4094
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:25 pm

seb146 wrote:
apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:

It is.... wait for it.... REPUBLICANS blocking any talk of raising the debt ceiling. REPUBLICANS refuse to hold any kind of vote or talks or anything on raising the debt ceiling. So, yes, this is squarely on REPUBLICANS.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/government ... lock-bill/

The title? REPUBLICANS block debt ceiling bill

And, let's not forget, Republicans want to spend 3.5 trillion in infrastructure AND passed tax cuts that were not paid for when they controlled everything.


I agree that the Republicans have no interest in helping out on this issue. But here is the bottom line Seb. As AirWorthy rightly says, the Democrats have a majority in the House, a Majority in the Senate by way of Harris, and the White House. They should not even need republican help to get this done. Schumer is the Majority leader and he, not Mitch McConnell can decide what comes up for a vote. He doesn't need republican help for that. Furthermore there are a few other things you do not acknowledge.

1. The Democrats could eliminate the filibuster and continue to choose not to do so. Yes I get that most of the is Manchin and Sinema using it for power, but certainly there are ways leadership can apply pressure to these senators isn't there?
2. When the Covid relief bill passed under reconciliation earlier this year, the Democrats could have easily included a debt ceiling increase in it, and did not do so. That is on Schumer and Pelosi, not the GOP.
3. Biden doesn't even need congress to act. He can mint a coin that would deal with the issue immediately. And chooses not to do so.
4. Harris can always overrule the parliamentarian on anything, but chooses not to do so. Furthermore, the dems could fire her the way McConnell and the GOP fired Bob Dove when he didn't give them what they wanted. Again, they choose not to do so.
5. For some reason, there is a hyper focus on the Infrastructure bill and the Reconciliation bill this week. Even though these bills are needed, passing them is not as critical as the Debt Ceiling. But the focus seems to be more on the former and not the latter.
6. Where the hell is Biden in all of this? I don't see him putting much pressure on Congress or using the bully pulpit at all.

Seb you are 100 percent correct in that the GOP is not helping the situation at all. But for once, can you take off your partisan glasses and start criticizing your own party for once. They control everything. They have the ability to get this done. And for whatever reason, they are having a hard time governing and getting it done. This is not on a GOP that is in the minority, this is on Biden, Schumer, and Pelosi for failing to lead.


How are they not leading? Because two Democrats align with Republicans? They have had pressure put on them. Removing the filibuster will simply give control back to Republicans as both Manchin and Sinema would side with Republicans.

Democrats are playing chess, Republicans are playing Red Rover.

First of all, I believe Sinema and Manchin both voted to Raise the debt ceiling. So Schumer has the votes to pass this if the filibuster goes away. I can not believe that you are actually arguing in favor of the filibuster. Secondly, the GOP already has all the power because they have defacto veto power over anything that would otherwise pass the Senate. If the filibuster goes away, it makes it that much easier to pass a lot of democratic priorities. And it also takes political cover away from other senate Democrats who actually support what Sinema and Manchin are doing, but allowing them to be the boogeyman to cover their own backsides. Remember 10 Democrats voted against raising the minimum wage.

I stand by what I said. The debt ceiling is solely on Schumer and Pelosi. Now if Manchin or Sinema actually goes out and switches parties, that is a whole different game. But they have their votes on the Debt Ceiling. Again, this is on Democratic leadership. They have all the power in Government. They have to get this done.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8576
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:24 pm

apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:
apodino wrote:

I agree that the Republicans have no interest in helping out on this issue. But here is the bottom line Seb. As AirWorthy rightly says, the Democrats have a majority in the House, a Majority in the Senate by way of Harris, and the White House. They should not even need republican help to get this done. Schumer is the Majority leader and he, not Mitch McConnell can decide what comes up for a vote. He doesn't need republican help for that. Furthermore there are a few other things you do not acknowledge.

1. The Democrats could eliminate the filibuster and continue to choose not to do so. Yes I get that most of the is Manchin and Sinema using it for power, but certainly there are ways leadership can apply pressure to these senators isn't there?
2. When the Covid relief bill passed under reconciliation earlier this year, the Democrats could have easily included a debt ceiling increase in it, and did not do so. That is on Schumer and Pelosi, not the GOP.
3. Biden doesn't even need congress to act. He can mint a coin that would deal with the issue immediately. And chooses not to do so.
4. Harris can always overrule the parliamentarian on anything, but chooses not to do so. Furthermore, the dems could fire her the way McConnell and the GOP fired Bob Dove when he didn't give them what they wanted. Again, they choose not to do so.
5. For some reason, there is a hyper focus on the Infrastructure bill and the Reconciliation bill this week. Even though these bills are needed, passing them is not as critical as the Debt Ceiling. But the focus seems to be more on the former and not the latter.
6. Where the hell is Biden in all of this? I don't see him putting much pressure on Congress or using the bully pulpit at all.

Seb you are 100 percent correct in that the GOP is not helping the situation at all. But for once, can you take off your partisan glasses and start criticizing your own party for once. They control everything. They have the ability to get this done. And for whatever reason, they are having a hard time governing and getting it done. This is not on a GOP that is in the minority, this is on Biden, Schumer, and Pelosi for failing to lead.


How are they not leading? Because two Democrats align with Republicans? They have had pressure put on them. Removing the filibuster will simply give control back to Republicans as both Manchin and Sinema would side with Republicans.

Democrats are playing chess, Republicans are playing Red Rover.

First of all, I believe Sinema and Manchin both voted to Raise the debt ceiling. So Schumer has the votes to pass this if the filibuster goes away. I can not believe that you are actually arguing in favor of the filibuster. Secondly, the GOP already has all the power because they have defacto veto power over anything that would otherwise pass the Senate. If the filibuster goes away, it makes it that much easier to pass a lot of democratic priorities. And it also takes political cover away from other senate Democrats who actually support what Sinema and Manchin are doing, but allowing them to be the boogeyman to cover their own backsides. Remember 10 Democrats voted against raising the minimum wage.

I stand by what I said. The debt ceiling is solely on Schumer and Pelosi. Now if Manchin or Sinema actually goes out and switches parties, that is a whole different game. But they have their votes on the Debt Ceiling. Again, this is on Democratic leadership. They have all the power in Government. They have to get this done.


Okay, just suppose the Dems lose the Senate and the WH in 2024, proceed to propose all sorts of conservative laws, say big tax cuts, end Roe by legislation, trim social spending, how would feel about the filibuster then? It goes both ways and it protects the minority.

The “leadership” doesn’t have the power and if you think so, you’re not paying attention—they clearly don’t.
 
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seb146
Posts: 24075
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:33 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
apodino wrote:
seb146 wrote:

How are they not leading? Because two Democrats align with Republicans? They have had pressure put on them. Removing the filibuster will simply give control back to Republicans as both Manchin and Sinema would side with Republicans.

Democrats are playing chess, Republicans are playing Red Rover.

First of all, I believe Sinema and Manchin both voted to Raise the debt ceiling. So Schumer has the votes to pass this if the filibuster goes away. I can not believe that you are actually arguing in favor of the filibuster. Secondly, the GOP already has all the power because they have defacto veto power over anything that would otherwise pass the Senate. If the filibuster goes away, it makes it that much easier to pass a lot of democratic priorities. And it also takes political cover away from other senate Democrats who actually support what Sinema and Manchin are doing, but allowing them to be the boogeyman to cover their own backsides. Remember 10 Democrats voted against raising the minimum wage.

I stand by what I said. The debt ceiling is solely on Schumer and Pelosi. Now if Manchin or Sinema actually goes out and switches parties, that is a whole different game. But they have their votes on the Debt Ceiling. Again, this is on Democratic leadership. They have all the power in Government. They have to get this done.


Okay, just suppose the Dems lose the Senate and the WH in 2024, proceed to propose all sorts of conservative laws, say big tax cuts, end Roe by legislation, trim social spending, how would feel about the filibuster then? It goes both ways and it protects the minority.

The “leadership” doesn’t have the power and if you think so, you’re not paying attention—they clearly don’t.


The filibuster is not in the Constitution. The filibuster gives too much power to the minority. Republicans have been using the filibuster to get their way for at least a decade. It needs to be removed or, at the very least, take it back to a talking filibuster and make Republicans explain why they hate voting, hate women's health rights, hate minorities, hate LGBTQ+ people, and want to blend their brand of Christianity and government.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8576
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:29 pm

Look up Article 1, Section 5; each chamber can set their rules of procedure meaning filibuster is allowed. I see hatred of conservatism hasn’t changed.
 
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kngkyle
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:33 am

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:47 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
I think one of the biggest problems with the corruption in this country is how all power is concentrated in DC. Is more easy to corrupt a group of powerful politicians in one city, than go after 50 states individually. States interests and issues are all decided by DC.

All of these social programs, all of this waste should be delegated to the States, as it was originally proposed by the founding fathers. DC has too much power, and its a clear example of how much interest groups have set up camp in one place, as one recently said, "Washington DC is occupied territory by the lobbyist and powerful interest". Be that industrialists, corporations, wall street, employee unions etc you name it.

The main purpose of the federal government was, defense. That was the entire point. It has become one giant administrative state with thousands of interest groups encamped all vying for a share of the pie and embedding among the un-appointed bureaucrats who now have more power than the elected politicians.

This is the fault of both parties.


As someone on the left I also agree with you and I don't understand why there is virtually no discussion of states rights in our discourse today. The Founders knew different states had different ideas on how they wanted to be governed and created a system that allowed for that. There is little stopping blue states from implementing the policies they advocate for and the same goes for red states - and in reality they have done this (California most notably). The political shitshow in DC is about one side forcing it's will on the other side at the national level.

I'd put a big chunk of the blame for this at the feet of our national news media who fan the flames and steer the political agenda based on what they choose to cover vs not cover.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16449
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Debt Ceiling Drama

Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:19 am

kngkyle wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
I think one of the biggest problems with the corruption in this country is how all power is concentrated in DC. Is more easy to corrupt a group of powerful politicians in one city, than go after 50 states individually. States interests and issues are all decided by DC.

All of these social programs, all of this waste should be delegated to the States, as it was originally proposed by the founding fathers. DC has too much power, and its a clear example of how much interest groups have set up camp in one place, as one recently said, "Washington DC is occupied territory by the lobbyist and powerful interest". Be that industrialists, corporations, wall street, employee unions etc you name it.

The main purpose of the federal government was, defense. That was the entire point. It has become one giant administrative state with thousands of interest groups encamped all vying for a share of the pie and embedding among the un-appointed bureaucrats who now have more power than the elected politicians.

This is the fault of both parties.


As someone on the left I also agree with you and I don't understand why there is virtually no discussion of states rights in our discourse today. The Founders knew different states had different ideas on how they wanted to be governed and created a system that allowed for that. There is little stopping blue states from implementing the policies they advocate for and the same goes for red states - and in reality they have done this (California most notably). The political shitshow in DC is about one side forcing it's will on the other side at the national level.

I'd put a big chunk of the blame for this at the feet of our national news media who fan the flames and steer the political agenda based on what they choose to cover vs not cover.


This is a plus of platforms like Twitter or comment sections on major newspapers - anyone can respond and at least users will be exposed to varying views (minus the disinformation chaff from abroad, but often it's obvious who they are). The splintering off in the last two years to echo chambers in FB groups and new social media platforms unfortunately means people are becoming more cocooned and the weak-minded will only become more extreme in due time.

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