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Tugger
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Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:44 pm

So the Dems are making a very bad showing with the battle between the two wings of the party: Progressives vs Moderates

Of course I am strongly on the moderate side and don't get the "lets take everything we can now" side. It's as if step change is no longer good enough in the country. It is endemic in this country now both within and between the political parties. Just get something done, even if it is on the lower end. Otherwise they will end up like the Republicans in last administration and not be able to actually get anything done.

The House delayed the vote on the $550 infrastructure measure late Thursday as Democratic leaders struggled to assuage demands by progressives who have said they would only vote for the infrastructure measure after the $3.5 trillion social safety net package is passed by the Senate.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congre ... l-n1280560

Other articles:
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/democr ... 021-10-01/
https://www.ft.com/content/0caae2a6-fc3 ... c74fdbc995
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... cture-bill
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/polit ... lls-194775


I fully support the "make sure you know how you are paying for it" and "you can't just give, people must work" side of politics.

They are appearing as bad as the Republicans with their internal war between Trumplicans and actual Republicans.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
leader1
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:53 pm

Tugger wrote:
They are appearing as bad as the Republicans with their internal war between Trumplicans and actual Republicans.

Tugg



Exactly. Reminds me of the GOP civil war during the advent of the Tea Party when the business/moderate Republicans brought them into their fold. Difference was that the GOP moderates folded rather quickly and let the crazies take over. At least the Dem moderates are actually putting up a fight.
 
extender
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:12 pm

Funny, the Arizona Democratic party is trying disavow Kyrsten Sinema if she doesn't follow the progressive line.
 
737307
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:14 pm

Tugger wrote:
So the Dems are making a very bad showing with the battle between the two wings of the party: Progressives vs Moderates


Anyone with an attitude of "my way or the highway" is neither progressive nor moderate, but in fact an extremist. That goes for both Dems and the GOP.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:15 pm

The good thing is the moderates are putting up a fight - the bad thing is they're not really couching their opposition in terms acceptable to other parties, which will enhance gridlock.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:16 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Tugger wrote:
So the Dems are making a very bad showing with the battle between the two wings of the party: Progressives vs Moderates


Anyone with an attitude of "my way or the highway" is neither progressive nor moderate, but in fact an extremist. That goes for both Dems and the GOP.



You've described pretty much the entire Congress with the exception of about 10-15 reasonable members from both parties.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:18 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Tugger wrote:
So the Dems are making a very bad showing with the battle between the two wings of the party: Progressives vs Moderates


Anyone with an attitude of "my way or the higher way" is neither progressive nor moderate, but in fact an extremist. That goes for both Dems and the GOP.

So holding to an idea that spending an additional $1.5 trillion and knowing where the funding to pay for it vs supporting a drive to spend $3.5 trillion that has no known equivalent funding is coming from is an "extremist" thing to do?

I just don't see it that way. To being willing to come up to $1.5 trillion IS a compromise.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
737307
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:19 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Tugger wrote:
So the Dems are making a very bad showing with the battle between the two wings of the party: Progressives vs Moderates


Anyone with an attitude of "my way or the highway" is neither progressive nor moderate, but in fact an extremist. That goes for both Dems and the GOP.



You've described pretty much the entire Congress with the exception of about 10-15 reasonable members from both parties.


I know, it is sad. How low the country has stooped.
Perhaps it is time to overhaul the election system and make something that allows for multiple parties. Then we can have an extreme left, and extreme right, and hopefully something moderate in the middle. Because I still believe a large majority of voters wants a reasonable compromise and not something extreme.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:34 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:

Anyone with an attitude of "my way or the highway" is neither progressive nor moderate, but in fact an extremist. That goes for both Dems and the GOP.



You've described pretty much the entire Congress with the exception of about 10-15 reasonable members from both parties.


I know, it is sad. How low the country has stooped.
Perhaps it is time to overhaul the election system and make something that allows for multiple parties. Then we can have an extreme left, and extreme right, and hopefully something moderate in the middle. Because I still believe a large majority of voters wants a reasonable compromise and not something extreme.


What makes you think that system of multiple parties is going to work? how is a 3rd party or 4th party candidate get to 270 electoral votes? how can a senate that needs a majority of 50+1 get controlled by a third party? a house where you need a majority?

Sounds great in paper, but if you want an agenda to move forward you need 2 parties. In reality, my preference will always be, the more gridlock the better, the less the federal government ever does, the best. Let the states decide.

The current gridlock was intended by the voters in this country which said there should be 50 democrats 50 republicans in the Senate, and a majority of a handful in the house. Seems to me that the public wants either gridlock or people to work together, but not a majority forcing themselves on the rest of the country. That's my impression.

Next year Biden will become lame duck because moderates will not go into the crazy extremism because they would want to be reelected. If democrats don't do anything soon, Biden will become lame duck sooner than that.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:36 pm

Some of the "moderates" are DINO. In fact not even that, they're fully Republicans, if the GOP hadn't become the house of crazies. They take money from big donors and do their bidding. 70% of Republicans and 90% of Dems in West Virginia support the infrastructure bill, but Joe Manchin opposes it. Who is he representing, exactly ?

On the other hand, nothing the progressives are asking for is remotely "far left". It's normal life in Western Europe for decades.

Does it go too far for the US, probably yes, and I'm sure there is margin for negotiation between the two sides, but the "moderates" want to do so little it would be meaningless. They're acting as if it will make any difference next election, as if the GOP will be grateful for their moderation. Even if absolutely nothing is done, the GOP will still call every Dem a "crazy communist out to destroy America". So while you have power, do something with it, then people will have something to vote about, not just rants.
 
737307
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:37 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
In reality, my preference will always be, the more gridlock the better, the less the federal government ever does, the best. Let the states decide..


Would you prefer a dissolution of the United States?
 
737307
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:44 pm

I would personally cheer the Dems if they show the courage to get rid of the filibuster once and for all. Because it is the most anti-democratic, authoritarian scam in the book, aimed at depriving anyone else from speaking his or her mind.
Last edited by 737307 on Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:45 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
I would personally cheer the Dems if they show the courage to get rid of the filibuster once and for all. Because it is the most anti-democratic, authoritarian scam in the book, aimed at depriving anyone else for speaking his or her mind.

Of course in the current situation, getting rid of the filibuster would not solve the problem.

And technically it is what gives the more moderate elements, those "middle parties" you want to see in the US, the ability to do something. (The problem though is that currently those that are "middle" are hunted and attempted to be killed by the major parties that want only utter compliance to their will.)

Tugg
 
NIKV69
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:49 pm

leader1 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
They are appearing as bad as the Republicans with their internal war between Trumplicans and actual Republicans.

Tugg



Exactly. Reminds me of the GOP civil war during the advent of the Tea Party when the business/moderate Republicans brought them into their fold. Difference was that the GOP moderates folded rather quickly and let the crazies take over. At least the Dem moderates are actually putting up a fight.


Only difference was the tea party wasn't full of crazies. At least not to the tune of 4 Trillion dollars.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:56 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
leader1 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
They are appearing as bad as the Republicans with their internal war between Trumplicans and actual Republicans.

Tugg



Exactly. Reminds me of the GOP civil war during the advent of the Tea Party when the business/moderate Republicans brought them into their fold. Difference was that the GOP moderates folded rather quickly and let the crazies take over. At least the Dem moderates are actually putting up a fight.


Only difference was the tea party wasn't full of crazies. At least not to the tune of 4 Trillion dollars.

$4 trillion is not crazy IF you can pay for it. I am not saying that it is what the country should do but I do not support the "let's not spend any (more) money" loonies out there.

We are the wealthiest nation on this planet, by a long shot. We can do what we want really. But we DON'T pay for what we do and use. Again, we need to curb spending (I think) but more importantly increase taxes/close loopholes and fund what we ARE doing. We aren't going to be able to cut much/enough. No one is willing to gore their own ox. So taxes need to go up and funding source for each program needs to be identified and understood. The Treasury's printing press is not a good funding source.

Infrastructure and expansion into some new programs can be a good thing for the nation going forward. But there can't just be a crazy rush to do everything with no proper allocation of funding sources.

Tugg
 
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:01 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
leader1 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
They are appearing as bad as the Republicans with their internal war between Trumplicans and actual Republicans.

Tugg



Exactly. Reminds me of the GOP civil war during the advent of the Tea Party when the business/moderate Republicans brought them into their fold. Difference was that the GOP moderates folded rather quickly and let the crazies take over. At least the Dem moderates are actually putting up a fight.


Only difference was the tea party wasn't full of crazies. At least not to the tune of 4 Trillion dollars.



It's more charitable to believe no group is crazy, than argue the Tea Party was not full of crazies.

Back to topic, some infighting is good because it causes the party to think about what is achievable and what is rhetoric. Party platforms are generally more extreme than what the party will implement. Many progressive Democrats were not even happy with the platform, so it makes sense they will try to stir the pot when time to decide policy comes. Unfortunately, thanks to the urban-rural divide and our federal system of enfranchising land over people, Democrats are not as likely to hold meaningful power. People believing a government should do nothing by design is basically the death knell for an organized, unified country. I sometimes feel I drift rightward as I age, but a rudderless Democratic party still inspires more confidence and stability than the only other realistic choice.
 
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:05 pm

Tugger wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
leader1 wrote:


Exactly. Reminds me of the GOP civil war during the advent of the Tea Party when the business/moderate Republicans brought them into their fold. Difference was that the GOP moderates folded rather quickly and let the crazies take over. At least the Dem moderates are actually putting up a fight.


Only difference was the tea party wasn't full of crazies. At least not to the tune of 4 Trillion dollars.

$4 trillion is not crazy IF you can pay for it. I am not saying that it is what the country should do but I do not support the "let's not spend any (more) money" loonies out there.

We are the wealthiest nation on this planet, by a long shot. We can do what we want really. But we DON'T pay for what we do and use. Again, we need to curb spending (I think) but more importantly increase taxes/close loopholes and fund what we ARE doing. We aren't going to be able to cut much/enough. No one is willing to gore their own ox. So taxes need to go up and funding source for each program needs to be identified and understood. The Treasury's printing press is not a good funding source.

Infrastructure and expansion into some new programs can be a good thing for the nation going forward. But there can't just be a crazy rush to do everything with no proper allocation of funding sources.

Tugg


I don't think we should raise taxes or even consider changing anything tax related until we have a Federal budget overhaul. I personally believe that congress needs to get a grip on spending, have a clear and concise plan to pay for every single dollar they spend, then we can talk about how much to raise or lower taxes. I think there should be a Federal Balanced Budget act, and part of that act would be that congress cannot pass a single bill until a budget for the following FY is approved.
 
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:06 pm

N867DA wrote:
[...]
but a rudderless Democratic party still inspires more confidence and stability than the only other realistic choice.

Well when the hand on the other party's rudder is someone like Trump... ANYTHING is better than that. But again, the Republican's seem equally unable to get their own house in order.

Both parties are depending on the failures of the other party to deliver their "success" and are unable to achieve anything though their own actions.

Tugg
 
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:07 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
In reality, my preference will always be, the more gridlock the better, the less the federal government ever does, the best. Let the states decide..


Would you prefer a dissolution of the United States?


Why would I prefer that?

A congress that doesn't legislate, is better option for a conservative like me. Let things be as it is, issues should be solved locally and by the states.

Dissolution might happen if there are 4 major parties. Imagine a president that can't be elected because did not reach 270. Then a congress so divided it can't then elect the president since the election did not have a 270 electoral vote president. That would be a much bigger mess.

I think the outcome of the 2020 election was a mandate from Americans telling Washington to either compromise or do nothing.

Democrats want to ram more spending by party line votes than the entire cost of WW2. And at the same time expand the welfare state. That's extremist for a congress that there isn't a substantial majority by neither party.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:23 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
I think the outcome of the 2020 election was a mandate from Americans telling Washington to either compromise or do nothing.

The election was no "mandate". That would require a country united and speaking in a common voice.... that is how mandates actually work. The current situation is completely the result of deep divisions everywhere in our nation. And may I remind you "Divided we fall". That is NOT a good thing and no one who supports the USA should be advocating or desiring that.

Doing nothing is what losers do. Just at at those around you that "do nothing" and tell me where you see success in them and their situation.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Democrats want to ram more spending by party line votes than the entire cost of WW2. And at the same time expand the welfare state. That's extremist for a congress that there isn't a substantial majority by neither party.

Referencing WW2 is silly. The US GDP was just $228 billion in 1945. You think we should still be at that level? It was our willingness to go deep into debt spending that lead to the incredible recovery and economic performance of the next 50+ years! So deficit spending isn't the worst thing you can do. Not looking forward and planning and doing nothing even though a lot needs to be done, is the worst thing you can do.

Still, I agree that the Dems are very much trying to ram as much spending through as they possibly can right now. And the "Progressive" elements only seem to care that it is a crazy high amount that supposedly addresses all of their wish lists. That is stupid and irresponsible. As irresponsible as doing nothing.

Tugg
 
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:25 pm

This is both, at once, good and bad for Democrats. They want to cast the widest net possible and let everyone have a voice but, at the same time, it waters down anything. Progressives have to give up some things, moderates have to give up some things. Then, the final bill has to be negotiated because Republicans refuse to listen to any bill from Democrats, so more stuff has to be cut.

There are times I wish Democrats would be more authoritarian...
 
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:08 pm

Dieuwer wrote:

Would you prefer a dissolution of the United States?


A good portion (if not the majority) of the “let the states run things” people tend to live in the states that would go bankrupt in a week without federal assistance being allocated using money from…other states.

For all the talk of the federal govt getting their finances in order, how about the states try get themselves in order?
 
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:26 pm

seb146 wrote:
This is both, at once, good and bad for Democrats. They want to cast the widest net possible and let everyone have a voice but, at the same time, it waters down anything. Progressives have to give up some things, moderates have to give up some things. Then, the final bill has to be negotiated because Republicans refuse to listen to any bill from Democrats, so more stuff has to be cut.

There are times I wish Democrats would be more authoritarian...



We need a third party in the middle to pull in the edges from Right and left. Without it, we are just piling slush up to the sides of the road and everyone avoids the middle.
 
phluser
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:39 pm

Manchin and Sinema have enough power in a 50-50 senate, whether one agrees with them or not; thus, it's the progressives (on the weaker side) and ultimately the ones, making a mistake by not budging and letting the whole deal fail. It's seem foolish for the progressives to let it all fail, let Biden become lame duck and ultimately depress voter turnout in the midterms. I don't know what is at issue with them with the smaller 1.5 Trillion bipartisan deal. Why not get it passed, then work hard to flip PA and the few challenged seats to have a 52 or 53 seat majority in the Senate by the midterms, keep the House, then try passing more progressive agenda again in two years. Instead, the progressives are just setting themselves as Democrats, to lose the Senate in 2022. Some of the states with a challenged Senate Seat in 2022 include PA, NC, OH, FL, GA. Rather large/diverse states where Democrats can win, over say Maine, where progressives ran a Rhode Island native, Sara Gideon, against Susan Collins, then wondered why they lost even though Biden carried the state.
 
apodino
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:44 pm

Aesma wrote:
Some of the "moderates" are DINO. In fact not even that, they're fully Republicans, if the GOP hadn't become the house of crazies. They take money from big donors and do their bidding. 70% of Republicans and 90% of Dems in West Virginia support the infrastructure bill, but Joe Manchin opposes it. Who is he representing, exactly ?

On the other hand, nothing the progressives are asking for is remotely "far left". It's normal life in Western Europe for decades.

Does it go too far for the US, probably yes, and I'm sure there is margin for negotiation between the two sides, but the "moderates" want to do so little it would be meaningless. They're acting as if it will make any difference next election, as if the GOP will be grateful for their moderation. Even if absolutely nothing is done, the GOP will still call every Dem a "crazy communist out to destroy America". So while you have power, do something with it, then people will have something to vote about, not just rants.

This is the best post on this thread. You said everything that I wanted to say. The bottom line is, if you look at what the Progressives in the house are fighting for, it could easily pass for the Tori party manifesto in the UK, or it could have been the official platform of Erin O'Toole and the conservative party in Canada.

There is a big misconception of what moderate actually means. Let me spell it out for you. Allowing Medicare to negotiate drug prices is a Moderate position that would benefit almost all Americans, and it would also save the Federal Government a ton of money (meaning it would actually reduce the deficit.) It both cuts spending and doesn't raise taxes, which are two things the GOP says they want yet the GOP is staunchly against this idea. That is extreme in my opinion. And it gets worse, a number of Democrats are against it and then if you look at who they are and look at their campaign donors....you see big pharma. In fact, one Democrat, Scott Peters of California was called out by his own constituents on it, and he didn't apologize, saying he needed the corrupting money to fight a possible GOP challenger (In a safe blue district)
https://jacobinmag.com/2021/09/democrats-big-pharma-drug-pricing-vote-peters-schrader-rice

Also Biden should have all the leverage in the world over Joe Manchin. Joe Manchin's Daughter was caught rigging a merger deal with a company she ran called Mylan. She orchestrated a merger with Pfizer so that she could get rich and Pfizer could eliminate a competitor for an Epi-Pen so that they could have a monopoly and price gouge people who need them. Then to make matters worse, Mylan moved all the jobs out of West Virginia. She literally sold West Virginians out to get rich. What she did is criminal. Biden can use this as Leverage saying, if you don't vote with us we will prosecute your Daughter. Here is the great reporting on this issue from the intercept.

https://theintercept.com/2021/09/07/joe-manchin-epipen-price-heather-bresch/

Again, the extremism in my opinion is stuff that benefits the wealthy and the corporations. The moderate stuff is the stuff that actually benefits the people. The Dems are on the right side of these issues largely. But because the corporate media and people who hate Joe Biden don't want him to have victories, they spin it as though these corporate Democrats are actually moderate, when they are in fact extreme just like Mitch McConnell has been his entire career.
 
apodino
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:53 pm

phluser wrote:
Manchin and Sinema have enough power in a 50-50 senate, whether one agrees with them or not; thus, it's the progressives (on the weaker side) and ultimately the ones, making a mistake by not budging and letting the whole deal fail. It's seem foolish for the progressives to let it all fail, let Biden become lame duck and ultimately depress voter turnout in the midterms. I don't know what is at issue with them with the smaller 1.5 Trillion bipartisan deal. Why not get it passed, then work hard to flip PA and the few challenged seats to have a 52 or 53 seat majority in the Senate by the midterms, keep the House, then try passing more progressive agenda again in two years. Instead, the progressives are just setting themselves as Democrats, to lose the Senate in 2022. Some of the states with a challenged Senate Seat in 2022 include PA, NC, OH, FL, GA. Rather large/diverse states where Democrats can win, over say Maine, where progressives ran a Rhode Island native, Sara Gideon, against Susan Collins, then wondered why they lost even though Biden carried the state.


Which may explain Kevin McCarthy's gamble in the house to whip against the Bipartisan Bill, which I don't agree with tactically. I think tactically he should have provided the votes for it, then the Progressives would have lost all their leverage on the Reconciliation Bill, and it very well could have cost Pelosi her speakership. Instead he is gambling that the game of chicken between Manchin/Sinema and the rest of the party will cause nothing to pass which then Voters would blame on the party in Power and would then put the GOP back in power. It is very risky though because then if both bills do pass eventually, and people are helped by them, this is going to backfire on the GOP as then what does the GOP actually run on other than culture war BS that won't play will in Blue states.

As far as 2022 goes, I do think the map is favorable for Democrats. PA is a seat they should win, NC is winnable, Warnock is actually somewhat popular in GA and Trump's antics there are going to hurt Herschel Walker. OH is a seat that probably stays Red, and in Florida I don't see Marco Rubio losing. One state you leave off is WI, and I think Ron Johnson is going to be very vulnerable if he runs again, and if he doesn't run I don't know who the GOP actually runs. In the House, the early redrawn congressional maps show that the GOP isn't Gerrymandering as aggressively as they have in the past, and Democrats are gerrymandering more aggressively than they have in the past. I still think the House goes GOP, but it is going to be closer than people think.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:21 am

apodino wrote:
Also Biden should have all the leverage in the world over Joe Manchin. Joe Manchin's Daughter…

First of all, Joe Biden isn’t in a position to pressure anyone regarding the actions of their grown children. Second of all, Manchin won and represents a state that went for Trump +40. While no doubt infuriating to Dems, they have absolutely no leverage on him. And if they make things too difficult for him, he could very easily defect to the GOP with absolutely no blowback from his constituents.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:07 am

flyguy89 wrote:
apodino wrote:
Also Biden should have all the leverage in the world over Joe Manchin. Joe Manchin's Daughter…

First of all, Joe Biden isn’t in a position to pressure anyone regarding the actions of their grown children. Second of all, Manchin won and represents a state that went for Trump +40. While no doubt infuriating to Dems, they have absolutely no leverage on him. And if they make things too difficult for him, he could very easily defect to the GOP with absolutely no blowback from his constituents.


Heather Bresch presided over a scandal that affected hundreds of thousands, and while she claimed she took full responsibility for Mylan's actions, her defense was basically 'people ought to look on the bright side of life'. You may also remember the company only paid 1/3 of the restitution due to the government on over a billion dollars in price gouging of taxpayers. That seems far more serious, on balance, than a lawyer with a substance abuse problem. This kind of equivocation is just dumb. :shakehead:
 
flyguy89
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:43 am

Aaron747 wrote:
This kind of equivocation is just dumb. :shakehead:

It’s really not. They’re both grown people and unless Manchin or Biden were somehow directly involved in the scandalous activities of their crappy adult children, it’s dumb to use as a cudgel against either.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:01 am

flyguy89 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
This kind of equivocation is just dumb. :shakehead:

It’s really not. They’re both grown people and unless Manchin or Biden were somehow directly involved in the scandalous activities of their crappy adult children, it’s dumb to use as a cudgel against either.


A fair point, but arguably Ms. Bresch owed her entire ascension at Mylan to her father's interventions, including an MBA degree at WVU she didn't actually complete.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/28/us/2 ... ginia.html

And there are still questions about how they managed to classify their products as generics thereby skirting federal law (and defrauding the public) for so long.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... raud-probe

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/03/busi ... -ways.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-myla ... SKBN18R2ZN
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8593
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:08 pm

Schumer and Manchin did sign an agreement on $1.5 trillion.

https://static.politico.com/1e/ef/159ca ... 8-2021.pdf
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15887
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:06 am

Meanwhile, the mouthpieces of the far left continue melting down:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... ation.html


ABC's "The View" host blasts Democratic senators Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin for not agreeing to pass the Biden budget.

"These people are destroying the country, in my opinion," she said. "I don't know if people understand how dire the situation is."

"Manchin and Sinema must be called to task, they are the enemy of democracy, as you pointed out before."

"We have a great democracy, but it is really on life support here because of these two people."


I love it when the left eats their own...
 
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Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 11534
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:57 am

EA CO AS wrote:
I love it when the left eats their own...

And of course equally so many others have enjoyed watching the right eat their own.

It's important to always enjoy watching others fail.. It's an important core to many people's lives!

Tugg
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14567
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:59 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Meanwhile, the mouthpieces of the far left continue melting down:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... ation.html


ABC's "The View" host blasts Democratic senators Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin for not agreeing to pass the Biden budget.

"These people are destroying the country, in my opinion," she said. "I don't know if people understand how dire the situation is."

"Manchin and Sinema must be called to task, they are the enemy of democracy, as you pointed out before."

"We have a great democracy, but it is really on life support here because of these two people."


I love it when the left eats their own...


I really don't think many people care what Joy Behar has to say. She is a bomb thrower and really doesn't do much to further any thoughtful dialogue. I can't wait to see her reaction after the midterms.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16550
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:10 am

NIKV69 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Meanwhile, the mouthpieces of the far left continue melting down:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... ation.html


ABC's "The View" host blasts Democratic senators Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin for not agreeing to pass the Biden budget.

"These people are destroying the country, in my opinion," she said. "I don't know if people understand how dire the situation is."

"Manchin and Sinema must be called to task, they are the enemy of democracy, as you pointed out before."

"We have a great democracy, but it is really on life support here because of these two people."


I love it when the left eats their own...


I really don't think many people care what Joy Behar has to say. She is a bomb thrower and really doesn't do much to further any thoughtful dialogue. I can't wait to see her reaction after the midterms.


I certainly don't. She doesn't have a demonstrably negative impact on discourse like Maddow or Carlson.
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 15887
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:12 am

Tugger wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
I love it when the left eats their own...

And of course equally so many others have enjoyed watching the right eat their own.

It's important to always enjoy watching others fail.. It's an important core to many people's lives!

Tugg


Actually, I think you and I are more aligned than you realize. The goal is to see the extreme left and extreme right be eaten, leaving the moderates on both sides to work together to get things done.

As an Arizonan, so far I’m not seeing anyone on the GOP side who energizes me for the Senate. I’m seriously considering voting to re-elect Sen. Sinema as I like moderates who can think for themselves.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:19 am

The compromise will likely be watered down stuff plus 3 year plans instead of 10 year plans.
 
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DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2718
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:23 am

Tugger wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
I love it when the left eats their own...

And of course equally so many others have enjoyed watching the right eat their own.

It's important to always enjoy watching others fail.. It's an important core to many people's lives!

Tugg


It's like when I watch some segments of TYT, about the Dem Mods vs Rockers... I mean Progressives... ;)

When the TYT hosts whine, I dine. :smile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvyEJZRDZ4c
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24088
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:27 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Tugger wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
I love it when the left eats their own...

And of course equally so many others have enjoyed watching the right eat their own.

It's important to always enjoy watching others fail.. It's an important core to many people's lives!

Tugg


Actually, I think you and I are more aligned than you realize. The goal is to see the extreme left and extreme right be eaten, leaving the moderates on both sides to work together to get things done.

As an Arizonan, so far I’m not seeing anyone on the GOP side who energizes me for the Senate. I’m seriously considering voting to re-elect Sen. Sinema as I like moderates who can think for themselves.


If she continues to side with a party who supports overthrowing the government, is she really moderate? John McCain was a moderate. It can be argued that Romney is moderate. Sinema and Manchin are Republicans. Moderate means you have the strength of character to break from your party when history demands it.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8593
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:21 pm

seb146 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Tugger wrote:
And of course equally so many others have enjoyed watching the right eat their own.

It's important to always enjoy watching others fail.. It's an important core to many people's lives!

Tugg


Actually, I think you and I are more aligned than you realize. The goal is to see the extreme left and extreme right be eaten, leaving the moderates on both sides to work together to get things done.

As an Arizonan, so far I’m not seeing anyone on the GOP side who energizes me for the Senate. I’m seriously considering voting to re-elect Sen. Sinema as I like moderates who can think for themselves.


If she continues to side with a party who supports overthrowing the government, is she really moderate? John McCain was a moderate. It can be argued that Romney is moderate. Sinema and Manchin are Republicans. Moderate means you have the strength of character to break from your party when history demands it.


Since when does “history” have agency to demand anything?
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14567
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:21 pm

seb146 wrote:

If she continues to side with a party who supports overthrowing the government, is she really moderate? John McCain was a moderate. It can be argued that Romney is moderate. Sinema and Manchin are Republicans. Moderate means you have the strength of character to break from your party when history demands it.


This is pure Hyperbole. She isn't siding with anyone she is exercising some fiscal responsibility since the crazies in her own party have a death wish when it comes to spending.
 
Ken777
Posts: 10197
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:03 am

There was an article in either WaPo or the NY Times a short time ago that I spent a few hours to find today. Essentially it brought up the reality that the $3.5 Trillion amount was only Spending with ZERO adjustments for revenues coming into the Treasury. The number my diminished memory keeps bringing up is either $1.6 Trillion or $0.6 Trillion for the NET costs. Regardless of which one it is BOTH deliver a net cost that is less than HAKF for the $3.5 Spending that politicians argue against, Even Senator Manchin would understand that it is only $10 BILLION a year over his "Firm Ceiling".

Personally I believe that we should get the politicians to have honest discussions and negotiations on the Honest NET numbers, especially on a yearly basis. Most politicians in Congress (but maybe not all) can understand that would require them to divide that 10 year number by 10.

Manchin may have some sensitive areas where the Democrats need to protect him. There is going to be some major investments around the country and I believe that it is possible to have a dynamic economy that exceeds expectations.

That other Senator I'm renaming Senator Senna S. - it just seems to fit her better.
 
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Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 11534
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:06 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Tugger wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
I love it when the left eats their own...

And of course equally so many others have enjoyed watching the right eat their own.

It's important to always enjoy watching others fail.. It's an important core to many people's lives!

Tugg


Actually, I think you and I are more aligned than you realize. The goal is to see the extreme left and extreme right be eaten, leaving the moderates on both sides to work together to get things done.

As an Arizonan, so far I’m not seeing anyone on the GOP side who energizes me for the Senate. I’m seriously considering voting to re-elect Sen. Sinema as I like moderates who can think for themselves.

Fair enough. I was reacting too what I perceived was another "eff the other side" but if its both then yes both extremes deserve "effing".

And I see people calling Manchin and Sinema "Republican" but they aren't. They are elected as and state that they are Dems. People get to do that and to have their own free thoughts on what they want to do. I do appreciate what Manchin is. He is a hard ass, and he has stated clearly who and what is is and is seeking and willing to do and why. There are few willing to do that.

Honestly I hated that last round of COVID free money handouts and think it should have been the "infrastructure bill". Sure put money into the economy but do it in a way that is productive and gets things rolling again.

Tugg
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8593
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:45 pm

Ken777 wrote:
There was an article in either WaPo or the NY Times a short time ago that I spent a few hours to find today. Essentially it brought up the reality that the $3.5 Trillion amount was only Spending with ZERO adjustments for revenues coming into the Treasury. The number my diminished memory keeps bringing up is either $1.6 Trillion or $0.6 Trillion for the NET costs. Regardless of which one it is BOTH deliver a net cost that is less than HAKF for the $3.5 Spending that politicians argue against, Even Senator Manchin would understand that it is only $10 BILLION a year over his "Firm Ceiling".

Personally I believe that we should get the politicians to have honest discussions and negotiations on the Honest NET numbers, especially on a yearly basis. Most politicians in Congress (but maybe not all) can understand that would require them to divide that 10 year number by 10.

Manchin may have some sensitive areas where the Democrats need to protect him. There is going to be some major investments around the country and I believe that it is possible to have a dynamic economy that exceeds expectations.

That other Senator I'm renaming Senator Senna S. - it just seems to fit her better.


Is this another iteration of the “it’s free if we collect enough taxes” argument? If I earn $50,000 is the new car I buy free? Of course not. More free lunch gaslighting.
 
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atcsundevil
Moderator
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:03 pm

Please engage in discussion without personal attacks or disrespectful attitudes.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
Ken777
Posts: 10197
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:46 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Is this another iteration of the “it’s free if we collect enough taxes” argument? If I earn $50,000 is the new car I buy free? Of course not. More free lunch gaslighting.



I don't consider it gaslighting th establish the probable offset of increased government revenues to establish an honest Net Calculation, It seems to me that Failure to do so is basically political ignorance.

The difference in real life can be seen in the boost in the economy over a 10 year period - and probably longer. Initial growth can be seen in faster movement to enhanced Medicaid/Medicare patient care, extending the Chid Credit, pre-k, child care support, etc, We also need to grow our medical facilities, including hospitals. Increasing medical training is up to 9 years Post BS degree when you look at specialists, but significant growth in all areas of medicine & dentistry is needed.

As far as a "free lunch" goes, Food Stamps take care of a small part of that, but the best free lunch going on in this country id tried to the Trump Tax Cuts - with the super rich getting a free lunch in the form of cash and the country getting around a $7 Trillion increase in the government debt.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8593
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:15 am

Spending $3.5 trillion is $3.5 trillion, no getting around that. Show us how that “investment” will create returns equal to other investments and we can talk. Your argument sounds like self-paying tax cuts. Oh, is your income, my income and Buffet’s income owned by the government and we get to enjoy what the Congress let’s us keep? So, a tax cut is a free lunch.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1423
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:32 am

These darned rich folk who don't pay their fair share and are getting their earned money unfairly via Trump tax cut.

They (the top 1% of earner) actually pay for 40% of all income tax.

Image
https://www.heritage.org/taxes/commenta ... -pay-taxes
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16550
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:34 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Oh, is your income, my income and Buffet’s income owned by the government and we get to enjoy what the Congress let’s us keep?


I never understand this level of emotionalism on taxes. They are an assessment - nobody in government or anywhere else ever claimed income is 'owned'. If you don't want to be assessed, live off the grid.

There are whole organizations online trying to convince people they are illegal. That's just irrational.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8593
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:12 am

Stop paying taxes and see how long it takes for the government to come and arrest you. We had a very famous near here—jail time for refusing. There’s no choice here, no off grid.

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