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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:21 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Stop paying taxes and see how long it takes for the government to come and arrest you. We had a very famous near here—jail time for refusing. There’s no choice here, no off grid.


Not so - there are people who sell their property and live via camping passes or working on someone else's land instead of paying rent or taking an income. Off grid is not impossible, just a matter of choices.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:23 am

seb146 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Tugger wrote:
And of course equally so many others have enjoyed watching the right eat their own.

It's important to always enjoy watching others fail.. It's an important core to many people's lives!

Tugg


Actually, I think you and I are more aligned than you realize. The goal is to see the extreme left and extreme right be eaten, leaving the moderates on both sides to work together to get things done.

As an Arizonan, so far I’m not seeing anyone on the GOP side who energizes me for the Senate. I’m seriously considering voting to re-elect Sen. Sinema as I like moderates who can think for themselves.


If she continues to side with a party who supports overthrowing the government, is she really moderate? John McCain was a moderate. It can be argued that Romney is moderate. Sinema and Manchin are Republicans. Moderate means you have the strength of character to break from your party when history demands it.


Just a question for you seb: was it OK for people to harass her in the bathroom?
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:24 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Stop paying taxes and see how long it takes for the government to come and arrest you. We had a very famous near here—jail time for refusing. There’s no choice here, no off grid.



Nothing and no one are preventing you from renouncing your citizenship. If you do not feel like paying what you cost the gov't, this is always an option for you.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Spending $3.5 trillion is $3.5 trillion, no getting around that. Show us how that “investment” will create returns equal to other investments and we can talk.


There is no need to talk. We are doing this.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:52 am

Would 40% be okay, is 60%, the majority of your income okay. If the tax rat was 90%, wouldn’t that mean they own you
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:14 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Would 40% be okay, is 60%, the majority of your income okay. If the tax rat was 90%, wouldn’t that mean they own you


If someone in the .01% was at $20 billion net worth, they'd still have $2 billion to play with. And in any case they'd never pay the top marginal rate so it would be more like $10 billion to play with.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:39 am

If it was your $20 billion, you wouldn’t give it away so easy, as we’ve seen from Buffet giving his money to Gates’ Foundation exempting from taxation. Warren doesn’t believe the government can spend his money better than he can. But, whose money is it—the person’s or the government’s? I come down hard on it being the individual’s providing it was legally earned. And we’re not arguing over net worth, income. We’re not taxing wealth, we’re taxing earnings. Besides the real money, as shown by European taxation is the middle class.

Lastly, look at confidence in government which is in the toilet and has been for years. Can we truthfully say it’s the consent of the governed when people hold almost all government sectors in contempt and two votes in the Senate and maybe five in the House can mean so much in the outcomes. Most big bills have gotten wide majority support from both sides of the aisle, but both parties have given up on political persuasion, my way or the highway rules.
 
Ken777
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:07 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Would 40% be okay, is 60%, the majority of your income okay. If the tax rat was 90%, wouldn’t that mean they own you


IIRC the Top Tax Rate after World War II was 90%. It took a Democrat (JFK) in the White House to cut from that number, but it only went down to 75%. Both of those high rastes, however, were supporting a strong economy - it just got better with the cuts.

As for the 40% or 60% noted above, it would not be applied on a gross level. You 60% rate if applied these days would encounter a long list of legal deductions that would ensure it was not the majority of your income.

My biggest lesson on the need to generate government revenues was when I was in the Navy over 3 WestPac deployments. Lesson #1 was on Destroyer out of Da Nang. While most days we were on gunfire support for the troops on land we did periodically join carrier operations. Looking at the range and scope of the supporting ships as well as the carrier itself made it clear that these type of operations cost a loot of money to maintain - especially since they operated in a rotating basis with another carrier group.

The (CG(N)9) I served on for the first two deployment was also not cheap, We were a PIRAZ Operation, which was like flight controller for Yankee Station. Not a cheap warship by any means and, unfortunately will probably not be seen again, like the BBs.

Our combat over the years costs a lot of money. How much was Afghanistan operations costing? $3 Trillion over 20 years and counting. The "and counting part" come in the form of VA costs and benefits. I'm 77 and still get a benefit paid monthly for my service in the 60's. And I feel I have a few good years in me. Health care in the US normally has increasing expecting life spans and there will be a lot of young Afghanistan vets who will need 60 years of VA support.

It should not be that hard to look around at various parts of government spending and start to get an understanding that there is a need go generate revenues and we have taxes that we need to pay. Local through federal taxes.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:59 am

I don't have the answers but I will note that the we have had tax rates of 90% and been incredibly prosperous. And had enormous deficit spending and been incredibly prosperous. And started new social programs for needy portions of our population and been incredibly prosperous.

I think the tax rate is what the legislature we elect sets it as, and the nation adjusts and works to its best. As it has always done.

But we get in trouble, and are in trouble now, because we don't PAY FOR WHAT WE DO. We knew 40+ years ago that Social Security was going to be in trouble now. the solution was to adjust it a bit. I believe I remember either a small adjustment to the rate or remove the cap but idiots blocked any discussion of increases and other idiots allowed it and then added new programs and increased benefits to people who did not pay in without increasing what wen into it.

This is as much Republican's fault as it is Democrat's.

Tugg
 
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Tugger
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:08 am

To see an obvious wrongness in the Republican's right now: McConnell and the rest of them should support raising the debt ceiling. Because it is the right thing for the country and it has to be done. But they don't because they think it is to their benefit, to Republican's benefit. fuck the country, to not too.

Dems do their own shit that is the same but this is one simple example

Tugg
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:19 am

Tugger wrote:
To see an obvious wrongness in the Republican's right now: McConnell and the rest of them should support raising the debt ceiling. Because it is the right thing for the country and it has to be done. But they don't because they think it is to their benefit, to Republican's benefit. fuck the country, to not too.

Dems do their own shit that is the same but this is one simple example

Tugg


In a nutshell that's why long term issues don't get solved - looking for short term gain. This thinking poisons corporate organizations, and it does just the same to government.

When the middle class was swelling in the 60s and 70s, it made sense to make modest increases in tax rates for the largest chunk of the population. Now 40+ years later, almost all of the gains are going to the uppermost quintile while the middle class is squeezed evermore by housing, healthcare, and energy expenses. Therefore it makes sense that at least until a period the middle class is growing again in real measurables instead of purely by population increase, the uppermost quintile should bear most of the load again - and within that quintile, the top 10% in particular with income/gains in the seven figures plus. They will be fine, after all.
 
extender
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:28 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Nothing and no one are preventing you from renouncing your citizenship. If you do not feel like paying what you cost the gov't, this is always an option for you.


Got it all wrong, it is what the government costs us.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:11 am

extender wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Nothing and no one are preventing you from renouncing your citizenship. If you do not feel like paying what you cost the gov't, this is always an option for you.


Got it all wrong, it is what the government costs us.


How so?
 
extender
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:14 am

The government doesn't produce anything. Its income is derived from taxation. It is pretty simple actually. That post makes it sound like we are all serfs to a benevolent lord.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:20 am

extender wrote:
The government doesn't produce anything. Its income is derived from taxation. It is pretty simple actually. That post makes it sound like we are all serfs to a benevolent lord.


That statement makes zero sense logically or economically. Citizens and businesses receive a boatload of services they have either directly voted for or proxies have advocated for. 'Production' is not the aim, and never has been. The 'income' makes those services possible. You can debate which are necessary but the function of the system is what it is.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:19 pm

I am a loyal Democrat but I cannot accept the harassment by some extreme 'liberals' of Sens. Manchin and Senima for their demands for a smaller and more traditional infrastructure spending plan. They have been hanging out in small boats around the houseboat Sen. Manchin uses when in DC. Harassing Sen. Seyana at the airport, trespassing to inside a classroom where she teaches a course at Arizona State and inside a Woman's bathroom there. Pres. Biden gave a mild rebuke for such behaviors. Such acts of harassment to push them to support the big $3.5T bill will backfire, make the Democrats look worse and likely stiffen their positions against the bigger bill. They come from States where Republicans dominate or a narrow majority of voters and believe sincerely they are choosing the right course in limiting spending, preventing tax increases (which would be on the middle class, not the rich) and expansion of government. I would love to see the programs in the big bill but lets face it no one wants their taxes going up to pay for it, especially if most of the benefits go to the poor.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... uxbndlbing
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:20 pm

ltbewr wrote:
I am a loyal Democrat but I cannot accept the harassment by some extreme 'liberals' of Sens. Manchin and Senima for their demands for a smaller and more traditional infrastructure spending plan. They have been hanging out in small boats around the houseboat Sen. Manchin uses when in DC. Harassing Sen. Seyana at the airport, trespassing to inside a classroom where she teaches a course at Arizona State and inside a Woman's bathroom there.


Fully agree. This is also irrational behavior, and it won't be effective in getting those senators to change positions. Every administration has a shot at roughly one large policy deal, and it takes all hands on deck to get the compromises through that deliver something workable.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:44 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
extender wrote:
The government doesn't produce anything. Its income is derived from taxation. It is pretty simple actually. That post makes it sound like we are all serfs to a benevolent lord.


That statement makes zero sense logically or economically. Citizens and businesses receive a boatload of services they have either directly voted for or proxies have advocated for. 'Production' is not the aim, and never has been. The 'income' makes those services possible. You can debate which are necessary but the function of the system is what it is.


Are you willing to enumerate the 'boatloads' of services we citizens receive, and if we citizens even without paying taxes still receive? Tell me if there are any?

Roads and police and some others don't count. As if you are coming from another country visiting and still without being a citizen you can enjoy that.

I really want to know, what I as a tax payer pay to receive from the government ?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:19 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
extender wrote:
The government doesn't produce anything. Its income is derived from taxation. It is pretty simple actually. That post makes it sound like we are all serfs to a benevolent lord.


That statement makes zero sense logically or economically. Citizens and businesses receive a boatload of services they have either directly voted for or proxies have advocated for. 'Production' is not the aim, and never has been. The 'income' makes those services possible. You can debate which are necessary but the function of the system is what it is.


Are you willing to enumerate the 'boatloads' of services we citizens receive, and if we citizens even without paying taxes still receive? Tell me if there are any?

Roads and police and some others don't count. As if you are coming from another country visiting and still without being a citizen you can enjoy that.

I really want to know, what I as a tax payer pay to receive from the government ?

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-b ... dollars-go

Social Security, Medicare, tha US Military, and Interest on the National Debt are 70+%

Image
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:24 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
extender wrote:
The government doesn't produce anything. Its income is derived from taxation. It is pretty simple actually. That post makes it sound like we are all serfs to a benevolent lord.


That statement makes zero sense logically or economically. Citizens and businesses receive a boatload of services they have either directly voted for or proxies have advocated for. 'Production' is not the aim, and never has been. The 'income' makes those services possible. You can debate which are necessary but the function of the system is what it is.


Are you willing to enumerate the 'boatloads' of services we citizens receive, and if we citizens even without paying taxes still receive? Tell me if there are any?

Roads and police and some others don't count. As if you are coming from another country visiting and still without being a citizen you can enjoy that.

I really want to know, what I as a tax payer pay to receive from the government ?


Summed up nicely in the post above mine. Roads and what not are only 2% of that pie. Police are from your local taxes. Federal law enforcement though has kept us impressively safe from terror for more than 20 years, with the exception of Boston and San Berdoo.
 
extender
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:28 pm

Where do you think the government gets those funds from?

Social Security, comes from the magnificence of the government? Look at your W-2 lately?
 
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Tugger
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:31 pm

extender wrote:
Where do you think the government gets those funds from?

Social Security, comes from the magnificence of the government? Look at your W-2 lately?

The government IS the PEOPLE. At least in the USA that is how it is designed.

I have noticed how many seem to want to make "government" some boogeyman. Something that is "other". But it's not. We all participate in the governance of this nation via the representatives we elect to do so.

Tugg
 
extender
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:34 pm

A boogeyman that wants $3.5T to spread amongst political cronies. When a representative that was elected doesn't agree with the radicals, they get bullied and browbeat by drones. Time for the government to change.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:42 pm

extender wrote:
A boogeyman that wants $3.5T to spread amongst political cronies. When a representative that was elected doesn't agree with the radicals, they get bullied and browbeat by drones. Time for the government to change.


So much conflation in this statement. Is it the bogeyman? Is it the representatives who are out of step? Is it the taxation? Is it the drones? I suggest clearing the dust bunnies from under the bed - maybe that's the bogeyman you're looking for.

Change the government how, by the way? :boggled:
Last edited by Aaron747 on Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:42 pm

extender wrote:
A boogeyman that wants $3.5T to spread amongst political cronies. When a representative that was elected doesn't agree with the radicals, they get bullied and browbeat by drones. Time for the government to change.

Really? Has the "boogeyman" gotten that $3.5T? And to your end response, then change the government (but don't do it by trying to invade the capitol please).

I do not support the $3.5T wishlist currently making waves in the capitol. And I do not think it is going through. I also see the Dems are being morons and stupid in not actually doing what they CAN get done, instead they are attacking themselves and looking like fools and blowing.

All I ask is that we have plans to pay for what we are doing. That's it really. Yes there are times you have to go into debt, but then after you have to pay that debt pay or at least down. We don't do that. (And Republican's don't do that either. Oh to to those that follow Savior Trump, the bloviating ass didn't either.)

Tugg
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:48 pm

True enough, in 1950; top income tax rate was 91% and the Federal government spent 13.2% of GDP, 75% of that on defense. If you want to go back to those numbers, I’m with you. Company cars for middle mgt and country club membership were common perks. Here’s the data,

https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/historical-tables/

The $3.5 trillion number isn’t built from actual needs, it’s just “we spend this and let the executive figure out where to send it”. Waste will be amazing.
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:53 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
True enough, in 1950; top income tax rate was 91% and the Federal government spent 13.2% of GDP, 75% of that on defense. If you want to go back to those numbers, I’m with you. Here’s the data,

https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/historical-tables/

The $3.5 trillion number isn’t built from actual needs, it’s just “we spend this and let the executive figure out where to send it”. Waste will be amazing.



You mean right out of a recession then ? In `1952 the Fed spent `18,1% of GDP.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S
 
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Tugger
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:55 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
True enough, in 1950; top income tax rate was 91% and the Federal government spent 13.2% of GDP, 75% of that on defense. If you want to go back to those numbers, I’m with you.

I wouldn't mind it too much but I think 91% is too high quite frankly and I also firmly support several of the "social programs" (Social security, healthcare) enacted since then and so the situation is wholly different. The nation is wholly different from then. I think it was another thread that I called out someone for using the "entire cost of all of WW2" to denounce the $3.5T boondoggle the Dems want but then the entire US economy was only $250 billion back then too soo... kinda a useless measuring stick.

The growth and prosperity we have experienced since then does lend credence to the fact that increased government spending can and does enable greater prosperity for the citizens. But again, we come back to the same point I keep making: Pay for what you are doing! And what we are doing, on BOTH sides, is NOT that.

Tugg
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:56 pm

casinterest wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
True enough, in 1950; top income tax rate was 91% and the Federal government spent 13.2% of GDP, 75% of that on defense. If you want to go back to those numbers, I’m with you. Here’s the data,

https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/historical-tables/

The $3.5 trillion number isn’t built from actual needs, it’s just “we spend this and let the executive figure out where to send it”. Waste will be amazing.



You mean right out of a recession then ? In `1952 the Fed spent `18,1% of GDP.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S


Things were pretty fluid in those boom years - annualized GDP exceeded 5% growth 11x between 1954 and 1972.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:01 pm

casinterest wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
True enough, in 1950; top income tax rate was 91% and the Federal government spent 13.2% of GDP, 75% of that on defense. If you want to go back to those numbers, I’m with you. Here’s the data,

https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/historical-tables/

The $3.5 trillion number isn’t built from actual needs, it’s just “we spend this and let the executive figure out where to send it”. Waste will be amazing.



You mean right out of a recession then ? In `1952 the Fed spent `18,1% of GDP.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S



It’s varied from 15-18% of GDP, regardless of tax rates for most of the post-WWII era.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:06 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
True enough, in 1950; top income tax rate was 91% and the Federal government spent 13.2% of GDP, 75% of that on defense. If you want to go back to those numbers, I’m with you. Here’s the data,

https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/historical-tables/

The $3.5 trillion number isn’t built from actual needs, it’s just “we spend this and let the executive figure out where to send it”. Waste will be amazing.



You mean right out of a recession then ? In `1952 the Fed spent `18,1% of GDP.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S



It’s varied from 15-18% of GDP, regardless of tax rates for most of the post-WWII era.



And it it generally 16% now.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:11 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

That statement makes zero sense logically or economically. Citizens and businesses receive a boatload of services they have either directly voted for or proxies have advocated for. 'Production' is not the aim, and never has been. The 'income' makes those services possible. You can debate which are necessary but the function of the system is what it is.


Are you willing to enumerate the 'boatloads' of services we citizens receive, and if we citizens even without paying taxes still receive? Tell me if there are any?

Roads and police and some others don't count. As if you are coming from another country visiting and still without being a citizen you can enjoy that.

I really want to know, what I as a tax payer pay to receive from the government ?


Summed up nicely in the post above mine. Roads and what not are only 2% of that pie. Police are from your local taxes. Federal law enforcement though has kept us impressively safe from terror for more than 20 years, with the exception of Boston and San Berdoo.


No services to me.

I do not use social security, I have my private pension fund, savings investments.
Don't use medicare, medicaid or CHIP. Nor any of the safety net programs.

So I don't receive any services from the government other than the military, which as I said before, its the only point. But its hardly a service, I don't actually go out to the military every day or they come to me.

And even if I don't pay any taxes or go off the grid as you say, I will still get the military or law enforcement.

So, in reality, I don't get anything for my money that I wouldn't otherwise get if I don't pay federal taxes.

Bottom line, the government hasn't any business in the money I make, nor should it be forced upon me to pay the government under the threat of jail, money that I have earned myself without the aid of the government. Its my hard earned work that has allowed me to make money. And the government is no where near me on helping me accomplish this.

Nonetheless, I support the idea of local taxes to fund roads, schools my children don't go because its private, and my local law enforcement. I support my military, but other than that. That's it. All the rest if waste money that won't provide any return not only to me but to my country as a whole. There hasn't been any real success for example in any return from the money spent in the 'war on poverty'. Much less I expect from this stupid 3.5 trillion package, which the only intent is to make the welfare state bigger at my expense and of my family.
 
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seb146
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:28 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

Actually, I think you and I are more aligned than you realize. The goal is to see the extreme left and extreme right be eaten, leaving the moderates on both sides to work together to get things done.

As an Arizonan, so far I’m not seeing anyone on the GOP side who energizes me for the Senate. I’m seriously considering voting to re-elect Sen. Sinema as I like moderates who can think for themselves.


If she continues to side with a party who supports overthrowing the government, is she really moderate? John McCain was a moderate. It can be argued that Romney is moderate. Sinema and Manchin are Republicans. Moderate means you have the strength of character to break from your party when history demands it.


Just a question for you seb: was it OK for people to harass her in the bathroom?


I only heard the audio, I have not seen if there is video. Every word they said is true. They were demanding answers as constituents. I get why they did it. It is creepy but I get it. I know that is a BS answer but that is my answer.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:40 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Are you willing to enumerate the 'boatloads' of services we citizens receive, and if we citizens even without paying taxes still receive? Tell me if there are any?

Roads and police and some others don't count. As if you are coming from another country visiting and still without being a citizen you can enjoy that.

I really want to know, what I as a tax payer pay to receive from the government ?


Summed up nicely in the post above mine. Roads and what not are only 2% of that pie. Police are from your local taxes. Federal law enforcement though has kept us impressively safe from terror for more than 20 years, with the exception of Boston and San Berdoo.


No services to me.

I do not use social security, I have my private pension fund, savings investments.
Don't use medicare, medicaid or CHIP. Nor any of the safety net programs.

So I don't receive any services from the government other than the military, which as I said before, its the only point. But its hardly a service, I don't actually go out to the military every day or they come to me.

And even if I don't pay any taxes or go off the grid as you say, I will still get the military or law enforcement.

So, in reality, I don't get anything for my money that I wouldn't otherwise get if I don't pay federal taxes.

Bottom line, the government hasn't any business in the money I make, nor should it be forced upon me to pay the government under the threat of jail, money that I have earned myself without the aid of the government. Its my hard earned work that has allowed me to make money. And the government is no where near me on helping me accomplish this.

Nonetheless, I support the idea of local taxes to fund roads, schools my children don't go because its private, and my local law enforcement. I support my military, but other than that. That's it. All the rest if waste money that won't provide any return not only to me but to my country as a whole. There hasn't been any real success for example in any return from the money spent in the 'war on poverty'. Much less I expect from this stupid 3.5 trillion package, which the only intent is to make the welfare state bigger at my expense and of my family.


All I hear is righteous indignation. Did you attend public school as a kid? Where did you go to college? Of course you don’t use SS - you’re still working age! LOL

You will reject SS when you retire? Have you told your parents to send their SS benefits back? You’re not going to use Medicare when you’re over 65? Pretty hard to take seriously.

And for a Floridian pretty hilarious to imagine going back to pre-1940s life, when hurricanes would suddenly turn up and lay waste to whole communities without any time to prepare. But sure, let’s shut down NOAA and NWS...no service for you from them. :shakehead:
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1423
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:47 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Summed up nicely in the post above mine. Roads and what not are only 2% of that pie. Police are from your local taxes. Federal law enforcement though has kept us impressively safe from terror for more than 20 years, with the exception of Boston and San Berdoo.


No services to me.

I do not use social security, I have my private pension fund, savings investments.
Don't use medicare, medicaid or CHIP. Nor any of the safety net programs.

So I don't receive any services from the government other than the military, which as I said before, its the only point. But its hardly a service, I don't actually go out to the military every day or they come to me.

And even if I don't pay any taxes or go off the grid as you say, I will still get the military or law enforcement.

So, in reality, I don't get anything for my money that I wouldn't otherwise get if I don't pay federal taxes.

Bottom line, the government hasn't any business in the money I make, nor should it be forced upon me to pay the government under the threat of jail, money that I have earned myself without the aid of the government. Its my hard earned work that has allowed me to make money. And the government is no where near me on helping me accomplish this.

Nonetheless, I support the idea of local taxes to fund roads, schools my children don't go because its private, and my local law enforcement. I support my military, but other than that. That's it. All the rest if waste money that won't provide any return not only to me but to my country as a whole. There hasn't been any real success for example in any return from the money spent in the 'war on poverty'. Much less I expect from this stupid 3.5 trillion package, which the only intent is to make the welfare state bigger at my expense and of my family.


All I hear is righteous indignation. Did you attend public school as a kid? Where did you go to college? Of course you don’t use SS - you’re still working age! LOL

You will reject SS when you retire? Have you told your parents to send their SS benefits back? You’re not going to use Medicare when you’re over 65? Pretty hard to take seriously.

And for a Floridian pretty hilarious to imagine going back to pre-1940s life, when hurricanes would suddenly turn up and lay waste to whole communities without any time to prepare. But sure, let’s shut down NOAA and NWS...no service for you from them. :shakehead:


SS is being paid separate of the taxes. You know this. No, I won't rely on the bankrupt SS for my pension. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... nsolvency/
That's why I have placed my faith on my private pension fund.
I went to private school as a kid, but even if I went to public it was my local taxes that I proudly pay.

You still haven't told me which are the 'boatload of services' I get *now* with the amount I pay in federal taxes. Still waiting....
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14576
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:53 pm

seb146 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

If she continues to side with a party who supports overthrowing the government, is she really moderate? John McCain was a moderate. It can be argued that Romney is moderate. Sinema and Manchin are Republicans. Moderate means you have the strength of character to break from your party when history demands it.


Just a question for you seb: was it OK for people to harass her in the bathroom?


I only heard the audio, I have not seen if there is video. Every word they said is true. They were demanding answers as constituents. I get why they did it. It is creepy but I get it. I know that is a BS answer but that is my answer.


They also harassed her on a flight. It's ok they are more than welcome to vote against her in a primary but something tells me she will be just fine.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16592
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:07 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

No services to me.

I do not use social security, I have my private pension fund, savings investments.
Don't use medicare, medicaid or CHIP. Nor any of the safety net programs.

So I don't receive any services from the government other than the military, which as I said before, its the only point. But its hardly a service, I don't actually go out to the military every day or they come to me.

And even if I don't pay any taxes or go off the grid as you say, I will still get the military or law enforcement.

So, in reality, I don't get anything for my money that I wouldn't otherwise get if I don't pay federal taxes.

Bottom line, the government hasn't any business in the money I make, nor should it be forced upon me to pay the government under the threat of jail, money that I have earned myself without the aid of the government. Its my hard earned work that has allowed me to make money. And the government is no where near me on helping me accomplish this.

Nonetheless, I support the idea of local taxes to fund roads, schools my children don't go because its private, and my local law enforcement. I support my military, but other than that. That's it. All the rest if waste money that won't provide any return not only to me but to my country as a whole. There hasn't been any real success for example in any return from the money spent in the 'war on poverty'. Much less I expect from this stupid 3.5 trillion package, which the only intent is to make the welfare state bigger at my expense and of my family.


All I hear is righteous indignation. Did you attend public school as a kid? Where did you go to college? Of course you don’t use SS - you’re still working age! LOL

You will reject SS when you retire? Have you told your parents to send their SS benefits back? You’re not going to use Medicare when you’re over 65? Pretty hard to take seriously.

And for a Floridian pretty hilarious to imagine going back to pre-1940s life, when hurricanes would suddenly turn up and lay waste to whole communities without any time to prepare. But sure, let’s shut down NOAA and NWS...no service for you from them. :shakehead:


SS is being paid separate of the taxes. You know this. No, I won't rely on the bankrupt SS for my pension. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... nsolvency/
That's why I have placed my faith on my private pension fund.
I went to private school as a kid, but even if I went to public it was my local taxes that I proudly pay.

You still haven't told me which are the 'boatload of services' I get *now* with the amount I pay in federal taxes. Still waiting....


SS is a tax, bud. And I never said ‘rely’ on it - my question was will you reject it? Also I never made any temporal reference to the services - some are always on and some are indirect or plain come later in life.

If your parents use Medicare, there are coordinators in your area who will help arrange homecare or physical therapy should they need it. As I said you Floridians benefit from NOAA, NWS, and FEMA big-time. You have fresh oranges in your markets thanks to coordination and research by USDA...food safety for your family too. You have cheap sugar and flour thanks to Department of Commerce/USTR influence on those markets. You have reasonable electricity prices in a high consumption state thanks to DOE subsidies. You can instantly locate flood hazards and sinkhole risk anywhere you might buy in your state thanks to USGS.
 
FGITD
Posts: 1808
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:21 pm

Yea…but what have the Romans ever done for us?!

As for the bathroom incident…I’m ok with politics getting a little ugly. I’ve said it before, but politicians need to be kept aware that this isn’t a zero sum game for everyone. Outside of their re-election chances, they are all more or less immune from every decision they make, and if anything most likely stand to profit and benefit regardless of outcome.
 
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Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 11534
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:25 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
You still haven't told me which are the 'boatload of services' I get *now* with the amount I pay in federal taxes. Still waiting....

One thing that always amazes me is how completely blind some people are to the obvious. What you get, the "boatload of services', is the entire business and economic engine of the USA. YOU may get nothing, but most EVERYONE else does.

And that allows them to get an education as a child, to get emergency medical services if needed, to get a job (and protected by unemployment if the company goes belly up). That allows the people to work and feel secure that they will have something later in life (even if you poo poo SS it's staying and there will funding found for it, probably a fee increase on the wealthy combined with means testing which I disagree with). And who live in neighborhoods that have infrastructure projects that benefited from federal funding (not just local). The goods and services all these people get and use that are carried on interstate transit elements from airways to highways. That went into the military to serve their country and came out with skills or a work ethic or a pride of country.

All the people that you make money off of to pay your private schooling and your private pension and that private healthcare you enjoy (which is wholly subsidized by everyone else using said services as well.) The trough you feed from... or more accurately, the boat you are floating on is the boatload you get.

Tugg
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8601
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:11 pm

casinterest wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:


You mean right out of a recession then ? In `1952 the Fed spent `18,1% of GDP.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S



It’s varied from 15-18% of GDP, regardless of tax rates for most of the post-WWII era.



And it it generally 16% now.


Revenue for Feds was 16.4% of GDP in pre-COVID 2018 and spending was 20.2%. It’s spending that tells the tale because that’s how much of the economy the government is allocating to itself. That 20.2% can’t be used by the private sector, which means lower investment, lower productivity and lower wages.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8601
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:15 pm

Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
You still haven't told me which are the 'boatload of services' I get *now* with the amount I pay in federal taxes. Still waiting....

One thing that always amazes me is how completely blind some people are to the obvious. What you get, the "boatload of services', is the entire business and economic engine of the USA. YOU may get nothing, but most EVERYONE else does.

And that allows them to get an education as a child, to get emergency medical services if needed, to get a job (and protected by unemployment if the company goes belly up). That allows the people to work and feel secure that they will have something later in life (even if you poo poo SS it's staying and there will funding found for it, probably a fee increase on the wealthy combined with means testing which I disagree with). And who live in neighborhoods that have infrastructure projects that benefited from federal funding (not just local). The goods and services all these people get and use that are carried on interstate transit elements from airways to highways. That went into the military to serve their country and came out with skills or a work ethic or a pride of country.

All the people that you make money off of to pay your private schooling and your private pension and that private healthcare you enjoy (which is wholly subsidized by everyone else using said services as well.) The trough you feed from... or more accurately, the boat you are floating on is the boatload you get.

Tugg


Much of those services are funded and run by state and local governments. Run the numbers on your SS contributions, all 12.4%, and see how much better a retirement it would provide that SS for anyone who worked until FRA. It’s remarkably better to invest the FICA money over a lifetime. I paid, both employee and the employer sides, about $300,000; invested over those almost 50 years, it be well over $1.3 million. The lump sum value of my SS now is less than $600,000, even considering survivor benefit. It’s a horrible scheme.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 11534
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:27 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Revenue for Feds was 16.4% of GDP in pre-COVID 2018 and spending was 20.2%. It’s spending that tells the tale because that’s how much of the economy the government is allocating to itself. That 20.2% can’t be used by the private sector, which means lower investment, lower productivity and lower wages.

Then we again come back to the question of: How do YOU propose we solve that?

I'll put my eggs out there: Increase taxes and halt growth on existing limited use programs. Which programs? Ain't that always the question and problem. Cuz' no one wants to gore their ox. Which then comes back to: Taxes. And an increase in them. Sadly, for better or worse.

Of course "raising taxes" isn't some easy fix. Any changes won't just magically create the needed increase. Dems seem blind to this. Any increase/change immediately causes money to shift and move to new "safety". So the increase won;t be as much as is desired if there is one at all.

And if I did get to choose spending to cut, some of it would be military (won't happen easily as the various states want the manufacturing jobs) but mostly "sustained payments programs" would be my target. Basically I support the need for assistance to be temporary and that people need to work to earn what they get. Somehow.

No easy answer, not even a complete one, just my opinion.

Tugg
 
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Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 11534
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:32 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Much of those services are funded and run by state and local governments. Run the numbers on your SS contributions, all 12.4%, and see how much better a retirement it would provide that SS for anyone who worked until FRA. It’s remarkably better to invest the FICA money over a lifetime. I paid, both employee and the employer sides, about $300,000; invested over those almost 50 years, it be well over $1.3 million. The lump sum value of my SS now is less than $600,000, even considering survivor benefit. It’s a horrible scheme.

But SS is not an investment in the stock market or a company. It is a public promise among the US citizens to themselves that you will at least get something at the end. It is an investment that can't go belly up. And if you think could just dump all that money into the market without enormous consequences, then you are not as insightful as I thought.

I don't know the easy answer.

Tugg
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8601
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:50 pm

Well, path dependence says it is way too late to seriously modify SS. If the SS had been invested by individuals in the economy instead of spent by politicians; we’d have more investment, larger GDP, higher wages. We now for a fact, that “promise” is hostage to Congress who can on a whim take it away because they have done just that several times. As it is, every bit of everyone’s SS has been nothing but an alternative flat tax on the economy—it’s gone. OTOH, if the money had been handed over to Congress in some form of TSP, yes, enormous bad consequences.
 
hashtagconfused
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:35 pm

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:22 pm

should the SALT cap remain in place then to help ensure "wealthier" people have less to deduct? with all the focus on effective federal tax rates, the amount of money paid in property taxes, for example, is often overlooked. for many homeowners of expensive homes, that can be a substantial amount of money paid into the tax system.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8601
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:38 pm

No, SALT cap should remain, but indexed. Removing SALT would substantially undo what the Dems are doing to raise taxes on the “wealthy”.
 
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Tugger
Topic Author
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:14 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, SALT cap should remain, but indexed. Removing SALT would substantially undo what the Dems are doing to raise taxes on the “wealthy”.

If it were me, I'd just double it or maybe go to $25K (and link to CPI rise after?). That would address the vast majority of those that need it and not give a big break to others.

Tugg
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14178
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:41 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:


It’s varied from 15-18% of GDP, regardless of tax rates for most of the post-WWII era.



And it it generally 16% now.


Revenue for Feds was 16.4% of GDP in pre-COVID 2018 and spending was 20.2%. It’s spending that tells the tale because that’s how much of the economy the government is allocating to itself. That 20.2% can’t be used by the private sector, which means lower investment, lower productivity and lower wages.



But that 20% is used by the private sector. All that money that goes back to the IRS, still get used in outlays along with the Fed's printed money, and ultimately becomes a part of the money cycle in the private sector. Yes we can get too much Government, but it is usually balanced out by what the Fed creates to balance the budget.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16592
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:49 am

casinterest wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:


And it it generally 16% now.


Revenue for Feds was 16.4% of GDP in pre-COVID 2018 and spending was 20.2%. It’s spending that tells the tale because that’s how much of the economy the government is allocating to itself. That 20.2% can’t be used by the private sector, which means lower investment, lower productivity and lower wages.



But that 20% is used by the private sector. All that money that goes back to the IRS, still get used in outlays along with the Fed's printed money, and ultimately becomes a part of the money cycle in the private sector. Yes we can get too much Government, but it is usually balanced out by what the Fed creates to balance the budget.


It's also just an inaccurate take. Spending inevitably results in bids and vendor contracts - people conveniently forget the private sector actions many government programs.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3461
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:32 am

Tugger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
True enough, in 1950; top income tax rate was 91% and the Federal government spent 13.2% of GDP, 75% of that on defense. If you want to go back to those numbers, I’m with you.

I wouldn't mind it too much but I think 91% is too high quite frankly and I also firmly support several of the "social programs" (Social security, healthcare) enacted since then and so the situation is wholly different.

Here’s the thing…no one paid those high statutory rates. The effective tax rate at that peak (1960) was 46%, today it’s ~27%, so only an 18-19 point difference between the “golden years” and today. Our tax code has always been a mess, riddled with loopholes and deductions. I do agree with you that we need to pay for what we have and that there’s obviously some room to increase taxes on the wealthy…but there really isn’t THAT much room. At least not as much as progressives would like to think. But then again I don’t think they have any desire to sustainably fund their wish lists since most of them seem to be in the MMT camp.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8601
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:27 am

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Revenue for Feds was 16.4% of GDP in pre-COVID 2018 and spending was 20.2%. It’s spending that tells the tale because that’s how much of the economy the government is allocating to itself. That 20.2% can’t be used by the private sector, which means lower investment, lower productivity and lower wages.



But that 20% is used by the private sector. All that money that goes back to the IRS, still get used in outlays along with the Fed's printed money, and ultimately becomes a part of the money cycle in the private sector. Yes we can get too much Government, but it is usually balanced out by what the Fed creates to balance the budget.


It's also just an inaccurate take. Spending inevitably results in bids and vendor contracts - people conveniently forget the private sector actions many government programs.


Then why doesn’t the government take 60%, 80%? Does government spend and invest in productive ways better than the private sector?

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