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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:55 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


But that 20% is used by the private sector. All that money that goes back to the IRS, still get used in outlays along with the Fed's printed money, and ultimately becomes a part of the money cycle in the private sector. Yes we can get too much Government, but it is usually balanced out by what the Fed creates to balance the budget.


It's also just an inaccurate take. Spending inevitably results in bids and vendor contracts - people conveniently forget the private sector actions many government programs.


Then why doesn’t the government take 60%, 80%? Does government spend and invest in productive ways better than the private sector?


Because absent very unusual scenarios like the Depression, there's no purpose to taking that much. As stated earlier: citizens and businesses receive services they have either directly voted for or proxies have advocated for. 'Production' is not government's aim, and never has been. That is not debatable.

What is also not debatable is that inevitably some programs are large enough that government cannot execute them without private sector vendors with specific expertise. So as cas said, ultimately whatever percentage that is cycles back through the private sector.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:44 am

flyguy89 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I wouldn't mind it too much but I think 91% is too high quite frankly and I also firmly support several of the "social programs" (Social security, healthcare) enacted since then and so the situation is wholly different.

Here’s the thing…no one paid those high statutory rates. The effective tax rate at that peak (1960) was 46%, today it’s ~27%, so only an 18-19 point difference between the “golden years” and today. Our tax code has always been a mess, riddled with loopholes and deductions. I do agree with you that we need to pay for what we have and that there’s obviously some room to increase taxes on the wealthy…but there really isn’t THAT much room. At least not as much as progressives would like to think. But then again I don’t think they have any desire to sustainably fund their wish lists since most of them seem to be in the MMT camp.

You know you are sounding very Progressive suggesting increasing taxes on just the wealthy vs taxes on all.

And sure, I'll support your 27%. It's a hell of a lot more than the ACTUAL average across all incomes of just under 15%
https://www.thebalance.com/what-the-ave ... es-4768594
So yeah I can understand maybe why that earlier version of the USA was more prosperous than this current version. We spend like we tax at 27%... so I guess we should like you say.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Then why doesn’t the government take 60%, 80%? Does government spend and invest in productive ways better than the private sector?

The number one thing about money, other than that which sits and is not spent or loaned (is hoarded), all money goes to people and is spent with other people. One thing the government does is spend money (more than it should, but spends it into peoples pockets). That is one reason why the USA is wealthier than all others. Look up velocity of money. That is one of the key things that is most important.

Tugg
 
flyguy89
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:27 am

Tugger wrote:
You know you are sounding very Progressive suggesting increasing taxes on just the wealthy vs taxes on all.

Nah, I’m more of a minarchist as far as personal leanings, but I’m open to having the debate…I just prefer keeping the discussion fact-based. If we want to have a Scandinavian-style social safety net, then taxes are going to have to go up across the board. The notion of sustainably funding that amount of government by only increasing taxes on the wealthy and corporations as well as borrowing is just not realistic.

Tugger wrote:
And sure, I'll support your 27%.

I should clarify, those numbers were in reference to the top statutory rate of 91%. The effective rate actually paid was 46%
 
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casinterest
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:28 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

It's also just an inaccurate take. Spending inevitably results in bids and vendor contracts - people conveniently forget the private sector actions many government programs.


Then why doesn’t the government take 60%, 80%? Does government spend and invest in productive ways better than the private sector?


Because absent very unusual scenarios like the Depression, there's no purpose to taking that much. As stated earlier: citizens and businesses receive services they have either directly voted for or proxies have advocated for. 'Production' is not government's aim, and never has been. That is not debatable.

What is also not debatable is that inevitably some programs are large enough that government cannot execute them without private sector vendors with specific expertise. So as cas said, ultimately whatever percentage that is cycles back through the private sector.



And remember, the 20% includes programs directly going back to people through healthcare and social security. So the Administrative costs are actually very minimal for what the federal government is doing.

The concerning part of it all is always the debt, but we pay interest on the debt to acknowledge that it does exist, but in essence, it is once again paying citizens for buying the debt that they are getting paid with.
 
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seb146
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:10 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Just a question for you seb: was it OK for people to harass her in the bathroom?


I only heard the audio, I have not seen if there is video. Every word they said is true. They were demanding answers as constituents. I get why they did it. It is creepy but I get it. I know that is a BS answer but that is my answer.


They also harassed her on a flight. It's ok they are more than welcome to vote against her in a primary but something tells me she will be just fine.


"Harassed" is a funny way of saying she was asked by constituents. I doubt she will survive the next election. Even with right wing voting restrictions in place and right wing gerrymandering, Democrats and moderates are not happy with her.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:21 pm

seb146 wrote:
"Harassed" is a funny way of saying she was asked by constituents.

You are intentionally avoiding the reality of the situation if you don't see some level of harassment in what she encountered in the situations that have been shown online.

Tugg
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:09 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

It's also just an inaccurate take. Spending inevitably results in bids and vendor contracts - people conveniently forget the private sector actions many government programs.


Then why doesn’t the government take 60%, 80%? Does government spend and invest in productive ways better than the private sector?


Because absent very unusual scenarios like the Depression, there's no purpose to taking that much. As stated earlier: citizens and businesses receive services they have either directly voted for or proxies have advocated for. 'Production' is not government's aim, and never has been. That is not debatable.

What is also not debatable is that inevitably some programs are large enough that government cannot execute them without private sector vendors with specific expertise. So as cas said, ultimately whatever percentage that is cycles back through the private sector.


No argument that a slice goes back into the economy, but how efficiently, how much winds up lost in the government? Would the private sector have found more productive uses for those resources? While government did support basic research in the internet, for example, it was the private sector that made it productive. How much of the “welfare state” support real needs and how much is enabling unproductive behavior?

Of course, government spending has to be productive or the money is simply burned up. Opportunity cost is pretty simple, the productive capacity of the economy must be used in highest return investments.
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8601
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:12 pm

Tugger wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I wouldn't mind it too much but I think 91% is too high quite frankly and I also firmly support several of the "social programs" (Social security, healthcare) enacted since then and so the situation is wholly different.

Here’s the thing…no one paid those high statutory rates. The effective tax rate at that peak (1960) was 46%, today it’s ~27%, so only an 18-19 point difference between the “golden years” and today. Our tax code has always been a mess, riddled with loopholes and deductions. I do agree with you that we need to pay for what we have and that there’s obviously some room to increase taxes on the wealthy…but there really isn’t THAT much room. At least not as much as progressives would like to think. But then again I don’t think they have any desire to sustainably fund their wish lists since most of them seem to be in the MMT camp.

You know you are sounding very Progressive suggesting increasing taxes on just the wealthy vs taxes on all.

And sure, I'll support your 27%. It's a hell of a lot more than the ACTUAL average across all incomes of just under 15%
https://www.thebalance.com/what-the-ave ... es-4768594
So yeah I can understand maybe why that earlier version of the USA was more prosperous than this current version. We spend like we tax at 27%... so I guess we should like you say.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Then why doesn’t the government take 60%, 80%? Does government spend and invest in productive ways better than the private sector?

The number one thing about money, other than that which sits and is not spent or loaned (is hoarded), all money goes to people and is spent with other people. One thing the government does is spend money (more than it should, but spends it into peoples pockets). That is one reason why the USA is wealthier than all others. Look up velocity of money. That is one of the key things that is most important.

Tugg


No one “hoards” money even the trillions in savings accounts is invested by banks who benefit from 0.05% interest rates.
 
737307
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:29 pm

What is also clear that it is always about "taxes" and who should pay them, while you never hear about expenses and if we perhaps should finally curtail or even reduce them.
This is clear from the fact that when you live in e.g. California or NY, you total tax bill (including funding retirement and paying for healthcare) is equal if not higher than in most Western European countries. And those European countries do know how to balance their budget without crying about "taxes" all the time.

Image

http://bvcocpas.com/how-the-united-stat ... o-germany/
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... th/274945/
https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/20 ... -premiums/
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:03 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No argument that a slice goes back into the economy, but how efficiently, how much winds up lost in the government? Would the private sector have found more productive uses for those resources? While government did support basic research in the internet, for example, it was the private sector that made it productive. How much of the “welfare state” support real needs and how much is enabling unproductive behavior?


I think it really depends on what we're looking at. A lot of people looked at Apollo + Gemini in the 60s and said 'what's the point of $280 billion (in today's dollars) when we can put that into national parks and social security?' For one, it employed more than 400K engineers and support staff and involved tens of thousands of vendors, for what, almost 12 years? Those firms came away with numerous innovations in computing, materials science, process improvements and widespread business/consumer applications. I'd go back and tell that naysayer they were lacking imagination.
 
AirWorthy99
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Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:07 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No argument that a slice goes back into the economy, but how efficiently, how much winds up lost in the government? Would the private sector have found more productive uses for those resources? While government did support basic research in the internet, for example, it was the private sector that made it productive. How much of the “welfare state” support real needs and how much is enabling unproductive behavior?


I think it really depends on what we're looking at. A lot of people looked at Apollo + Gemini in the 60s and said 'what's the point of $280 billion (in today's dollars) when we can put that into national parks and social security?' For one, it employed more than 400K engineers and support staff and involved tens of thousands of vendors, for what, almost 12 years? Those firms came away with numerous innovations in computing, materials science, process improvements and widespread business/consumer applications. I'd go back and tell that naysayer they were lacking imagination.


Why are we still dreaming with this idea that the government is ran by angels and saints.

Government sucks at spending tax dollars, because most of the time, those spending it, aren't accountable to anyone. They will just blame one department and the other (the bureaucrats). The politicians will blame the bureaucrats or their political opponents on not running the government rightly. Its a never ending cycle of incompetence, mediocrity and corruption. That's any government. If it ain't your own money you don't worry at all how its spent and if its wasted.

Private sector will always administer the money better than the government for the simple reason that they are accountable to share holders or owners who looking at a problem will address it ASAP and not blame someone else or look the other way because its their direct bottom line.

Yes there are many examples of government doing many things right, but when was the last time we heard: "Oh look at that government program, its so good, so much great return on the investment by tax payers". That doesn't happen any more.

Paying federal taxes is basically only worth for the military and some small sized entities. But the rest is just one huge ponzi scheme that makes DC and the surrounding area more powerful than what it is. We are fools if we don't believe that.

As for money, no one goes to the grave with billions. That money goes back to the economy, and much better than how the government spends it.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:46 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No argument that a slice goes back into the economy, but how efficiently, how much winds up lost in the government? Would the private sector have found more productive uses for those resources? While government did support basic research in the internet, for example, it was the private sector that made it productive. How much of the “welfare state” support real needs and how much is enabling unproductive behavior?


I think it really depends on what we're looking at. A lot of people looked at Apollo + Gemini in the 60s and said 'what's the point of $280 billion (in today's dollars) when we can put that into national parks and social security?' For one, it employed more than 400K engineers and support staff and involved tens of thousands of vendors, for what, almost 12 years? Those firms came away with numerous innovations in computing, materials science, process improvements and widespread business/consumer applications. I'd go back and tell that naysayer they were lacking imagination.


Why are we still dreaming with this idea that the government is ran by angels and saints.

Government sucks at spending tax dollars, because most of the time, those spending it, aren't accountable to anyone. They will just blame one department and the other (the bureaucrats). The politicians will blame the bureaucrats or their political opponents on not running the government rightly. Its a never ending cycle of incompetence, mediocrity and corruption. That's any government. If it ain't your own money you don't worry at all how its spent and if its wasted.

Private sector will always administer the money better than the government for the simple reason that they are accountable to share holders or owners who looking at a problem will address it ASAP and not blame someone else or look the other way because its their direct bottom line.

Yes there are many examples of government doing many things right, but when was the last time we heard: "Oh look at that government program, its so good, so much great return on the investment by tax payers". That doesn't happen any more.

Paying federal taxes is basically only worth for the military and some small sized entities. But the rest is just one huge ponzi scheme that makes DC and the surrounding area more powerful than what it is. We are fools if we don't believe that.

As for money, no one goes to the grave with billions. That money goes back to the economy, and much better than how the government spends it.


Serious conflation of issues here. And I also never used the expression ‘angels and saints’ - that’s your emotionally loaded addition, not mine.

1. Government is accountable - the GAO’s entire purpose is to report on program efficacy and benefit to taxpayers. The CBO does deeper research on efficacy and impacts of legislation in Congress. Both are wide open transparent, and nonpartisan - their reports can be read anytime. State and local governments conduct similar reporting.

The public does a poor job of holding politicians accountable - our job via voting - because a. the country is huge and it’s hard to stay on top of it all b. a lot of people have no interest in the process c. many laymen don’t understand the content of these reports well because they are not SMEs and d. people accept whatever take on these reports is given by their favorite media or politician - both may be misleading. Those points are all on us.

2. The statement nobody likes government programs or has praised them is a hasty generalization fallacy. Are you suggesting Floridians are unsatisfied with NOAA’s hurricane forecasting efforts? Local governments are definitely thankful to have FEMA assistance.

And possibly due to your age, you’re neglecting the widespread popularity of a huge program we all pay into: Medicare. An analysis of 2018 and 2019 national surveys by the Kaiser Family Foundation found 94% satisfaction rates among Medicare users.

https://www.kff.org/medicare/issue-brie ... -problems/
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:08 pm

The NWS, including NHC, gets a whole $1.1 billion, a drop in the bucket of a $4.5 trillion budget. The big budget items are SS and Medicare/Medicaid, both will run out of money in the near-ish future—dedicated tax revenue (FICA) won’t cover outlays. I’m part of the 6% who find Medicare deplorable, much worse than my corporate plan.

Actually, Medicare is much worse than my experience with the vet or my eye surgeon doing cataract surgery. Both docs were responsive, kept me informed and the outcome was as planned. My new doc is casual, perfunctory and explained the wellness as “what Medicare provides”. Nearly useless. My corporate physical provided my the same hospital was thorough, gave me a full report including lab report, was timely and gave me what I needed for the FAA in two days. None of which can be said by the Medicare program. I gave up getting my FAA medical because getting the needed lab work was impossible, “it’s not needed”, was the explanation. The hospital ombudsman said the same. I gave up.

You say government is accountable but, if it’s impossible for voters to research and understand what’s going on with 25% of the nation’s economy in the form of government, it’s not accountable at all. I can go to my town meeting and, in person, hold my highway surveyor accountable or take the school supervisor to task, but how does one do that in DC?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:18 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The NWS, including NHC, gets a whole $1.1 billion, a drop in the bucket of a $4.5 trillion budget. The big budget items are SS and Medicare/Medicaid, both will run out of money in the near-ish future—dedicated tax revenue (FICA) won’t cover outlays. I’m part of the 6% who find Medicare deplorable, much worse than my corporate plan.

You say government is accountable but, if it’s impossible for voters to research and understand what’s going on with 25% of the nation’s economy in the form of government, it’s not accountable at all. I can go to my town meeting and, in person, hold my highway surveyor accountable or take the school supervisor to task, but how does one do that in DC?


The information needed for accountability is there - the government audits and reports on itself, to us. As I said, the responsibility is on us to not accept politicians’ or pundits’ interpretations at face value and hold them to account at the ballot box. That isn’t always easy when not everyone is good at analyzing information or plain not engaged. Obviously that is somewhere to focus, but let’s face it: these topics are a turn off to most people - they want to get on with their day and not have to think about anything too deeply. And we’re only half the equation because lobbyists and companies also have their say.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:15 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The NWS, including NHC, gets a whole $1.1 billion, a drop in the bucket of a $4.5 trillion budget. The big budget items are SS and Medicare/Medicaid, both will run out of money in the near-ish future—dedicated tax revenue (FICA) won’t cover outlays. I’m part of the 6% who find Medicare deplorable, much worse than my corporate plan.

Actually, Medicare is much worse than my experience with the vet or my eye surgeon doing cataract surgery. Both docs were responsive, kept me informed and the outcome was as planned. My new doc is casual, perfunctory and explained the wellness as “what Medicare provides”. Nearly useless. My corporate physical provided my the same hospital was thorough, gave me a full report including lab report, was timely and gave me what I needed for the FAA in two days. None of which can be said by the Medicare program. I gave up getting my FAA medical because getting the needed lab work was impossible, “it’s not needed”, was the explanation. The hospital ombudsman said the same. I gave up.

You say government is accountable but, if it’s impossible for voters to research and understand what’s going on with 25% of the nation’s economy in the form of government, it’s not accountable at all. I can go to my town meeting and, in person, hold my highway surveyor accountable or take the school supervisor to task, but how does one do that in DC?


You added to your post it seems - I have no idea as to your particular situation but Medicare is for retired persons generally, not folks who need to maintain an FAA medical. What my grandparents love about Medicare is the ability to use almost any facility, even top notch specialists down the road at Stanford. The plans they were on 30 years ago when working were restrictive. Not everyone has a Cadillac plan like yours.
 
Ken777
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:42 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
You added to your post it seems - I have no idea as to your particular situation but Medicare is for retired persons generally, not folks who need to maintain an FAA medical. What my grandparents love about Medicare is the ability to use almost any facility, even top notch specialists down the road at Stanford. The plans they were on 30 years ago when working were restrictive. Not everyone has a Cadillac plan like yours.


The great part of Medicare (for those who look deeply into it) is the ability to add a Medicare Supplement. Mine is Plan F and comes from State Farm. The total monthly costs for both Medicare and Medicare Supplement about half of the costs of my private health insurance when we were paying big dollars for far less "bang for our buck". The two together mean that the only payment I pay in a year for care IS the $25 I pay to have my eyes dilated at the annual visit to the eye Doc.

For the "average old folks" the costs of both combined doesn't look like a good deal UNTIL you get hit with a nasty (and expensive) cancer, of need multiple surgeries. Then it is a huge blessing.
 
AirWorthy99
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Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:00 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

I think it really depends on what we're looking at. A lot of people looked at Apollo + Gemini in the 60s and said 'what's the point of $280 billion (in today's dollars) when we can put that into national parks and social security?' For one, it employed more than 400K engineers and support staff and involved tens of thousands of vendors, for what, almost 12 years? Those firms came away with numerous innovations in computing, materials science, process improvements and widespread business/consumer applications. I'd go back and tell that naysayer they were lacking imagination.


Why are we still dreaming with this idea that the government is ran by angels and saints.

Government sucks at spending tax dollars, because most of the time, those spending it, aren't accountable to anyone. They will just blame one department and the other (the bureaucrats). The politicians will blame the bureaucrats or their political opponents on not running the government rightly. Its a never ending cycle of incompetence, mediocrity and corruption. That's any government. If it ain't your own money you don't worry at all how its spent and if its wasted.

Private sector will always administer the money better than the government for the simple reason that they are accountable to share holders or owners who looking at a problem will address it ASAP and not blame someone else or look the other way because its their direct bottom line.

Yes there are many examples of government doing many things right, but when was the last time we heard: "Oh look at that government program, its so good, so much great return on the investment by tax payers". That doesn't happen any more.

Paying federal taxes is basically only worth for the military and some small sized entities. But the rest is just one huge ponzi scheme that makes DC and the surrounding area more powerful than what it is. We are fools if we don't believe that.

As for money, no one goes to the grave with billions. That money goes back to the economy, and much better than how the government spends it.


Serious conflation of issues here. And I also never used the expression ‘angels and saints’ - that’s your emotionally loaded addition, not mine.

1. Government is accountable - the GAO’s entire purpose is to report on program efficacy and benefit to taxpayers. The CBO does deeper research on efficacy and impacts of legislation in Congress. Both are wide open transparent, and nonpartisan - their reports can be read anytime. State and local governments conduct similar reporting.

The public does a poor job of holding politicians accountable - our job via voting - because a. the country is huge and it’s hard to stay on top of it all b. a lot of people have no interest in the process c. many laymen don’t understand the content of these reports well because they are not SMEs and d. people accept whatever take on these reports is given by their favorite media or politician - both may be misleading. Those points are all on us.

2. The statement nobody likes government programs or has praised them is a hasty generalization fallacy. Are you suggesting Floridians are unsatisfied with NOAA’s hurricane forecasting efforts? Local governments are definitely thankful to have FEMA assistance.

And possibly due to your age, you’re neglecting the widespread popularity of a huge program we all pay into: Medicare. An analysis of 2018 and 2019 national surveys by the Kaiser Family Foundation found 94% satisfaction rates among Medicare users.

https://www.kff.org/medicare/issue-brie ... -problems/


May I ask, who is being fired, who is changing anything, after we see 20+ billion of Dollars wasted on fraudulent medicare payments *every year*.
The FY 2020 Medicare FFS estimated improper payment rate is 6.27 percent, representing $25.74 billion in improper payments. This compares to the FY 2019 estimated improper payment rate of 7.25 percent, representing $28.91 billion in improper payments.

https://www.cms.gov/newsroom/fact-sheet ... s-programs
Who is accountable for this? who is being fired?

You take a fortune 500 company, they find out they lose 20+ billion dollars a year by fraud, I can only imagine the headlines.

Federal government money doesn't have the same level of accountability and interest from anyone, we barely see the headlines stating the vast amount of federal money lost to fraud and waste, because its government money, everyone assumes this is normal. This are tax payer money, that's why no one cares.

Now, on this forum we have someone to attest that medicare sucks. I happen to know others to say the same.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16592
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:30 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Why are we still dreaming with this idea that the government is ran by angels and saints.

Government sucks at spending tax dollars, because most of the time, those spending it, aren't accountable to anyone. They will just blame one department and the other (the bureaucrats). The politicians will blame the bureaucrats or their political opponents on not running the government rightly. Its a never ending cycle of incompetence, mediocrity and corruption. That's any government. If it ain't your own money you don't worry at all how its spent and if its wasted.

Private sector will always administer the money better than the government for the simple reason that they are accountable to share holders or owners who looking at a problem will address it ASAP and not blame someone else or look the other way because its their direct bottom line.

Yes there are many examples of government doing many things right, but when was the last time we heard: "Oh look at that government program, its so good, so much great return on the investment by tax payers". That doesn't happen any more.

Paying federal taxes is basically only worth for the military and some small sized entities. But the rest is just one huge ponzi scheme that makes DC and the surrounding area more powerful than what it is. We are fools if we don't believe that.

As for money, no one goes to the grave with billions. That money goes back to the economy, and much better than how the government spends it.


Serious conflation of issues here. And I also never used the expression ‘angels and saints’ - that’s your emotionally loaded addition, not mine.

1. Government is accountable - the GAO’s entire purpose is to report on program efficacy and benefit to taxpayers. The CBO does deeper research on efficacy and impacts of legislation in Congress. Both are wide open transparent, and nonpartisan - their reports can be read anytime. State and local governments conduct similar reporting.

The public does a poor job of holding politicians accountable - our job via voting - because a. the country is huge and it’s hard to stay on top of it all b. a lot of people have no interest in the process c. many laymen don’t understand the content of these reports well because they are not SMEs and d. people accept whatever take on these reports is given by their favorite media or politician - both may be misleading. Those points are all on us.

2. The statement nobody likes government programs or has praised them is a hasty generalization fallacy. Are you suggesting Floridians are unsatisfied with NOAA’s hurricane forecasting efforts? Local governments are definitely thankful to have FEMA assistance.

And possibly due to your age, you’re neglecting the widespread popularity of a huge program we all pay into: Medicare. An analysis of 2018 and 2019 national surveys by the Kaiser Family Foundation found 94% satisfaction rates among Medicare users.

https://www.kff.org/medicare/issue-brie ... -problems/


May I ask, who is being fired, who is changing anything, after we see 20+ billion of Dollars wasted on fraudulent medicare payments *every year*.
The FY 2020 Medicare FFS estimated improper payment rate is 6.27 percent, representing $25.74 billion in improper payments. This compares to the FY 2019 estimated improper payment rate of 7.25 percent, representing $28.91 billion in improper payments.

https://www.cms.gov/newsroom/fact-sheet ... s-programs
Who is accountable for this? who is being fired?

You take a fortune 500 company, they find out they lose 20+ billion dollars a year by fraud, I can only imagine the headlines.

Federal government money doesn't have the same level of accountability and interest from anyone, we barely see the headlines stating the vast amount of federal money lost to fraud and waste, because its government money, everyone assumes this is normal. This are tax payer money, that's why no one cares.

Now, on this forum we have someone to attest that medicare sucks. I happen to know others to say the same.


Anecdotal reference is a logical fallacy. That is not a response to the Kaiser analysis of Medicare satisfaction rates.

And it’s more than a little disingenuous to bring up fraud and question who is being held responsible when the DOJ has a task force to prosecute fraudulent billing.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/medicare ... se-billing

https://www.justice.gov/criminal-fraud/ ... operations
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1423
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:35 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Serious conflation of issues here. And I also never used the expression ‘angels and saints’ - that’s your emotionally loaded addition, not mine.

1. Government is accountable - the GAO’s entire purpose is to report on program efficacy and benefit to taxpayers. The CBO does deeper research on efficacy and impacts of legislation in Congress. Both are wide open transparent, and nonpartisan - their reports can be read anytime. State and local governments conduct similar reporting.

The public does a poor job of holding politicians accountable - our job via voting - because a. the country is huge and it’s hard to stay on top of it all b. a lot of people have no interest in the process c. many laymen don’t understand the content of these reports well because they are not SMEs and d. people accept whatever take on these reports is given by their favorite media or politician - both may be misleading. Those points are all on us.

2. The statement nobody likes government programs or has praised them is a hasty generalization fallacy. Are you suggesting Floridians are unsatisfied with NOAA’s hurricane forecasting efforts? Local governments are definitely thankful to have FEMA assistance.

And possibly due to your age, you’re neglecting the widespread popularity of a huge program we all pay into: Medicare. An analysis of 2018 and 2019 national surveys by the Kaiser Family Foundation found 94% satisfaction rates among Medicare users.

https://www.kff.org/medicare/issue-brie ... -problems/


May I ask, who is being fired, who is changing anything, after we see 20+ billion of Dollars wasted on fraudulent medicare payments *every year*.
The FY 2020 Medicare FFS estimated improper payment rate is 6.27 percent, representing $25.74 billion in improper payments. This compares to the FY 2019 estimated improper payment rate of 7.25 percent, representing $28.91 billion in improper payments.

https://www.cms.gov/newsroom/fact-sheet ... s-programs
Who is accountable for this? who is being fired?

You take a fortune 500 company, they find out they lose 20+ billion dollars a year by fraud, I can only imagine the headlines.

Federal government money doesn't have the same level of accountability and interest from anyone, we barely see the headlines stating the vast amount of federal money lost to fraud and waste, because its government money, everyone assumes this is normal. This are tax payer money, that's why no one cares.

Now, on this forum we have someone to attest that medicare sucks. I happen to know others to say the same.


Anecdotal reference is a logical fallacy. That is not a response to the Kaiser analysis of Medicare satisfaction rates.

And it’s more than a little disingenuous to bring up fraud and question who is being held responsible when the DOJ has a task force to prosecute fraudulent billing.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/medicare ... se-billing

https://www.justice.gov/criminal-fraud/ ... operations


No its not, you are saying we should be happy with medicare. Well not everyone who uses it is. And now I show how badly this is ran to the tune of losing tens of billion a year to fraud. Just the tip of the ice berg, I am sure way more is lost.

I think the best way to deal with medicare or any other government program is full privatization. I am sure tax payers will save more than the 20+ billion a year which they lose to fraud. A lot of the money being put to medicare will go to what's supposed to, instead of losing billions either by fraud or by the bureaucratic costs of running it.

Imagine a Fortune 500 spending millions on reducing fraud with a 'task force', only to see fraud keep going almost to 30 billion. They will fire everyone and find another company to run the task force.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:52 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

May I ask, who is being fired, who is changing anything, after we see 20+ billion of Dollars wasted on fraudulent medicare payments *every year*.

https://www.cms.gov/newsroom/fact-sheet ... s-programs
Who is accountable for this? who is being fired?

You take a fortune 500 company, they find out they lose 20+ billion dollars a year by fraud, I can only imagine the headlines.

Federal government money doesn't have the same level of accountability and interest from anyone, we barely see the headlines stating the vast amount of federal money lost to fraud and waste, because its government money, everyone assumes this is normal. This are tax payer money, that's why no one cares.

Now, on this forum we have someone to attest that medicare sucks. I happen to know others to say the same.


Anecdotal reference is a logical fallacy. That is not a response to the Kaiser analysis of Medicare satisfaction rates.

And it’s more than a little disingenuous to bring up fraud and question who is being held responsible when the DOJ has a task force to prosecute fraudulent billing.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/medicare ... se-billing

https://www.justice.gov/criminal-fraud/ ... operations


No its not, you are saying we should be happy with medicare. Well not everyone who uses it is. And now I show how badly this is ran to the tune of losing tens of billion a year to fraud. Just the tip of the ice berg, I am sure way more is lost.

I think the best way to deal with medicare or any other government program is full privatization. I am sure tax payers will save more than the 20+ billion a year which they lose to fraud. A lot of the money being put to medicare will go to what's supposed to, instead of losing billions either by fraud or by the bureaucratic costs of running it.

Imagine a Fortune 500 spending millions on reducing fraud with a 'task force', only to see fraud keep going almost to 30 billion. They will fire everyone and find another company to run the task force.


‘No it’s not’ is not a valid argument. Anecdotal fallacies are covered in the first week of any coommunity college critical thinking class.

Also feelings anout the government don’t change facts - 94% are satisfied. That’s what expert analysis (by an HMO of all places) says - if you have commissioned research and have different data, let’s see it. :boggled:
 
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seb146
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:12 am

Tugger wrote:
seb146 wrote:
"Harassed" is a funny way of saying she was asked by constituents.

You are intentionally avoiding the reality of the situation if you don't see some level of harassment in what she encountered in the situations that have been shown online.

Tugg


When people are angry, this is what happens. They elected her to represent the people. She is not. She is seeing the backlash. Part of me does feel they went too far but party of me thinks they did the right thing. Especially if she is not representing those who elected her.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:27 am

seb146 wrote:
When people are angry, this is what happens. They elected her to represent the people. She is not. She is seeing the backlash. Part of me does feel they went too far but party of me thinks they did the right thing. Especially if she is not representing those who elected her.

Wait... so anyone who does not feel "represented" is OK to do this to elected representatives? There is no call for decorum or for respect or boundaries? Anyone can do this to anyone they don't think is "fairly" representing them? You would support that happening to you?

Tugg
 
hashtagconfused
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:41 am

the 91% tax rate was for a income bracket that started at the equivalent of about $2,000,000 in today numbers. it likely applied to very few individuals. even if the average effective tax rate on the top 1% was increased by 20 points to approx 45% that would be roughly 500 billion dollars more a year, hardly enough to close the budget deficit. it will take more than raising taxes on the wealthy
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:41 am

seb146 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
seb146 wrote:
"Harassed" is a funny way of saying she was asked by constituents.

You are intentionally avoiding the reality of the situation if you don't see some level of harassment in what she encountered in the situations that have been shown online.

Tugg


When people are angry, this is what happens. They elected her to represent the people. She is not. She is seeing the backlash. Part of me does feel they went too far but party of me thinks they did the right thing. Especially if she is not representing those who elected her.


Nobody died - this is a difference of opinion. Their harassment of her is inappropriate and immature, period.
 
hashtagconfused
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:42 am

are government elected to only represent the people that voted for them? or to represent all people?
 
Ken777
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:35 am

hashtagconfused wrote:
are government elected to only represent the people that voted for them? or to represent all people?


The GOP has moved to a point where they are elected to represent Big Money, both the super rich individuals and the very rich companies (or corporations). The very rich has sufficient influence (or control) on the GOP in Congress and we continue to see them get down to their knees to keep the wealthy happy.

The GOP did make it a big deal to move a businessman into the Oval Office - like we would see some benefit for that move. Sadly the GOP choose a :businessman" who had t file for bankruptcy 6 times.

Yep SIX TIMES and the Republicans think that is grand. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
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seb146
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:48 pm

hashtagconfused wrote:
are government elected to only represent the people that voted for them? or to represent all people?


In theory, members of the House represent a specific district. I live in Oregon and, IIRC, we have six representatives. Each state has two Senators who are elected by the entire state. In this case, Sen. Kyrsten Sinema was elected by a majority of Arizona citizens. She ran as a Democrat but, like Joe Manchin of West Virginia, she sides with Republicans more often than not. As the group who confronted her pointed out, she is not acting in the best interest of those who elected her.
 
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seb146
Posts: 24104
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:50 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
You are intentionally avoiding the reality of the situation if you don't see some level of harassment in what she encountered in the situations that have been shown online.

Tugg


When people are angry, this is what happens. They elected her to represent the people. She is not. She is seeing the backlash. Part of me does feel they went too far but party of me thinks they did the right thing. Especially if she is not representing those who elected her.


Nobody died - this is a difference of opinion. Their harassment of her is inappropriate and immature, period.


While she was doing her business, fine. But the rest of the time? No. Her constituents have the right to know why she is not acting in their interest. She may not be responding to their phone calls and emails and we all know what a clown show USPS is right now, so mailing anything is a nightmare.
 
hashtagconfused
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:35 pm

Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:34 pm

i am not sure the relevance of trump's bankruptcies.

it seems though that if the wealthy are the ones that voted for turmp, then the tax cuts that benefited them are justified since he was just acting in the interest of those that elected him.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:40 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The NWS, including NHC, gets a whole $1.1 billion, a drop in the bucket of a $4.5 trillion budget. The big budget items are SS and Medicare/Medicaid, both will run out of money in the near-ish future—dedicated tax revenue (FICA) won’t cover outlays. I’m part of the 6% who find Medicare deplorable, much worse than my corporate plan.

Actually, Medicare is much worse than my experience with the vet or my eye surgeon doing cataract surgery. Both docs were responsive, kept me informed and the outcome was as planned. My new doc is casual, perfunctory and explained the wellness as “what Medicare provides”. Nearly useless. My corporate physical provided my the same hospital was thorough, gave me a full report including lab report, was timely and gave me what I needed for the FAA in two days. None of which can be said by the Medicare program. I gave up getting my FAA medical because getting the needed lab work was impossible, “it’s not needed”, was the explanation. The hospital ombudsman said the same. I gave up.

You say government is accountable but, if it’s impossible for voters to research and understand what’s going on with 25% of the nation’s economy in the form of government, it’s not accountable at all. I can go to my town meeting and, in person, hold my highway surveyor accountable or take the school supervisor to task, but how does one do that in DC?


You added to your post it seems - I have no idea as to your particular situation but Medicare is for retired persons generally, not folks who need to maintain an FAA medical. What my grandparents love about Medicare is the ability to use almost any facility, even top notch specialists down the road at Stanford. The plans they were on 30 years ago when working were restrictive. Not everyone has a Cadillac plan like yours.


Typical High Deductible HSA plan, nothing fancy, nothing Cadillac. Yes, past 65, so I’m stuck with it and wanted to keep my FAA medical, which should be supported. I have friends still flying professionally in their 70s, fortunately they don’t need a waiver completed.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8601
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:43 pm

seb146 wrote:
hashtagconfused wrote:
are government elected to only represent the people that voted for them? or to represent all people?


In theory, members of the House represent a specific district. I live in Oregon and, IIRC, we have six representatives. Each state has two Senators who are elected by the entire state. In this case, Sen. Kyrsten Sinema was elected by a majority of Arizona citizens. She ran as a Democrat but, like Joe Manchin of West Virginia, she sides with Republicans more often than not. As the group who confronted her pointed out, she is not acting in the best interest of those who elected her.


She’s not supposed to represent the people who elected her, she’s supposed to represent her state.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:46 pm

Ken777 wrote:
hashtagconfused wrote:
are government elected to only represent the people that voted for them? or to represent all people?


The GOP has moved to a point where they are elected to represent Big Money, both the super rich individuals and the very rich companies (or corporations). The very rich has sufficient influence (or control) on the GOP in Congress and we continue to see them get down to their knees to keep the wealthy happy.

The GOP did make it a big deal to move a businessman into the Oval Office - like we would see some benefit for that move. Sadly the GOP choose a :businessman" who had t file for bankruptcy 6 times.

Yep SIX TIMES and the Republicans think that is grand. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


The Democrats have become the Party of the Rich, blue collar, non-college workers vote R. Look at where Ds get campaign money, look at the Silicon Valley and high tech votes. Why else are they all in on eliminating the SALT deduction?

https://www.standingforfreedom.com/2021 ... -the-rich/
 
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Tugger
Topic Author
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:56 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
She’s not supposed to represent the people who elected her, she’s supposed to represent her state.

I say that all the time but I have a bunch of more conservative friends still supporting blocking everything they consider "Libruhl". It must go both ways.

Tugg
 
Newark727
Posts: 2620
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:22 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

The Democrats have become the Party of the Rich, blue collar, non-college workers vote R. Look at where Ds get campaign money, look at the Silicon Valley and high tech votes. Why else are they all in on eliminating the SALT deduction?

https://www.standingforfreedom.com/2021 ... -the-rich/


It's a convenient narrative, but as with most convenient narratives, has abundant counterexamples. PayPal billionaire Peter Thiel spoke at the Republican convention, while Oculus billionaire Palmer Luckey hosted a Trump fundraiser two weeks out from the 2020 election. In the fight over how app workers should be classified in California last year, the state Democratic party and Silicon Valley were on opposite sides. While the "blue collar, non-college" thing basically only holds true if you ignore everyone who isn't white.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:30 pm

And now witness the right wing talk circus and media farm berating McConnell for actually doing the right thing on the debt cap. The debt cap issue is for spending that has ALREADY been approved... including the spending the last 4+ years pushed through. If you are against raising the cap then you had plenty of time to not raise it.

Tugg
 
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casinterest
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:46 am

Tugger wrote:
And now witness the right wing talk circus and media farm berating McConnell for actually doing the right thing on the debt cap. The debt cap issue is for spending that has ALREADY been approved... including the spending the last 4+ years pushed through. If you are against raising the cap then you had plenty of time to not raise it.

Tugg



What is sad is that the supporters of these GOP reps think that they are standing up for something, but all they are doing is asking them to default on the US debt.
McConnell knows it is bad optics, but most of the GOP no longer understands finance or math.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:55 am

casinterest wrote:
Tugger wrote:
And now witness the right wing talk circus and media farm berating McConnell for actually doing the right thing on the debt cap. The debt cap issue is for spending that has ALREADY been approved... including the spending the last 4+ years pushed through. If you are against raising the cap then you had plenty of time to not raise it.

Tugg



What is sad is that the supporters of these GOP reps think that they are standing up for something, but all they are doing is asking them to default on the US debt.
McConnell knows it is bad optics, but most of the GOP no longer understands finance or math.


Oh they understand it, they are just being obtuse by choice.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:58 am

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Tugger wrote:
And now witness the right wing talk circus and media farm berating McConnell for actually doing the right thing on the debt cap. The debt cap issue is for spending that has ALREADY been approved... including the spending the last 4+ years pushed through. If you are against raising the cap then you had plenty of time to not raise it.

Tugg



What is sad is that the supporters of these GOP reps think that they are standing up for something, but all they are doing is asking them to default on the US debt.
McConnell knows it is bad optics, but most of the GOP no longer understands finance or math.


Oh they understand it, they are just being obtuse by choice.


It's not by choice. They are obtuse because they are scared. They run to the ledge and realize they aren't jumping just because their constituents think it would be funny.
 
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par13del
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:28 pm

casinterest wrote:
It's not by choice. They are obtuse because they are scared. They run to the ledge and realize they aren't jumping just because their constituents think it would be funny.

So everyone looks at this as being strictly about the government not defaulting on its existing loans, no one looking to see if there is any correlation to government spending?
I recall a number of past threads the last time the Tea Party was around and the limit was set to be raised, difference now is no Tea Party, someone somewhere needs to ensure that fiscal responsibility is also in the conversation.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:48 pm

par13del wrote:
casinterest wrote:
It's not by choice. They are obtuse because they are scared. They run to the ledge and realize they aren't jumping just because their constituents think it would be funny.

So everyone looks at this as being strictly about the government not defaulting on its existing loans, no one looking to see if there is any correlation to government spending?
I recall a number of past threads the last time the Tea Party was around and the limit was set to be raised, difference now is no Tea Party, someone somewhere needs to ensure that fiscal responsibility is also in the conversation.

Fiscal responsibility ? Remember both parties have put that in the wind. Remember those 2 Trillion in Tax Cuts that were going to be paid by Spending cuts?
That didn't happen.

We need fiscal responsibility, but the Federal Government has different responsibilities than the states. They have to meet the promised services, and that sometimes involves printing money( think of it like mining bitcoin). The past two years have been crazy, but hopefully by next year things will be back on track,

The US gets more money every year,
https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s- ... ue-3305762

But they spend it too :)

https://www.thebalance.com/national-deb ... ts-3306287


This next year as we recover in 2022, will show probably a lower deficit.
 
Newark727
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:54 pm

par13del wrote:
So everyone looks at this as being strictly about the government not defaulting on its existing loans, no one looking to see if there is any correlation to government spending?
I recall a number of past threads the last time the Tea Party was around and the limit was set to be raised, difference now is no Tea Party, someone somewhere needs to ensure that fiscal responsibility is also in the conversation.


The conversation isn't served by dishonest participants. The Tea Party had every chance to pursue a fiscally responsible agenda, but instead chose to repeal Obamacare fifty times, ban abortion thirty times, and vote for a blatant charlatan who slashed taxes, then took the money to keep the roofs from leaking at Army bases, and spent it on a big, useless wall. Fiscal responsibility!
 
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par13del
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:13 pm

Newark727 wrote:
par13del wrote:
So everyone looks at this as being strictly about the government not defaulting on its existing loans, no one looking to see if there is any correlation to government spending?
I recall a number of past threads the last time the Tea Party was around and the limit was set to be raised, difference now is no Tea Party, someone somewhere needs to ensure that fiscal responsibility is also in the conversation.


The conversation isn't served by dishonest participants. The Tea Party had every chance to pursue a fiscally responsible agenda, but instead chose to repeal Obamacare fifty times, ban abortion thirty times, and vote for a blatant charlatan who slashed taxes, then took the money to keep the roofs from leaking at Army bases, and spent it on a big, useless wall. Fiscal responsibility!

Yeah, but Trump was only in power for 4 years, the previous 8 was Obama a democrat, the current debt that the USA has is larger than whatever hate folks have for Trump, however, the past 4 years could be used as a cover for all that has happened before, which is the point I am trying to make. Trump did not invent fiscal responsibility, nor can his 4 years kill that notion. It is not only the states who waste money, the feds do as well, there were a whole lot of "shovel ready" projects that the states convinced the feds should be funded, how well did that work, not good since the current administration is now pushing for billions in major infrastructure upgrades.
 
737307
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:32 pm

As I have shown before, total tax rates including compulsory payments are already too high and well-above what the folks in Europe pay. So, the problem in fact are not payments, the problem is spending.
On top of that, I would argue that Americans get a very crappy return for all that spend. Look at infrastructure. European infrastructure is miles ahead of America. I haven't seen many pot-holed roads or public transport in Europe that constantly breaks down.
Then, Europeans have arguably the best healthcare system on the planet and do not pay usury rates for it like Americans do. And if that were not enough, Europeans typically refrain from going on costly adventures in foreign nations, then get beaten, and subsequently leave with their tail behind their legs and have their equipment impounded by "terrorist" organizations.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:41 pm

seb146 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

When people are angry, this is what happens. They elected her to represent the people. She is not. She is seeing the backlash. Part of me does feel they went too far but party of me thinks they did the right thing. Especially if she is not representing those who elected her.


Nobody died - this is a difference of opinion. Their harassment of her is inappropriate and immature, period.


While she was doing her business, fine. But the rest of the time? No. Her constituents have the right to know why she is not acting in their interest. She may not be responding to their phone calls and emails and we all know what a clown show USPS is right now, so mailing anything is a nightmare.


Her constituents can ask her in the street or outside her office fair game ..Following her into the restroom or in a restaurant trying to eat or doxing which left wing nut jobs love to do is another story. If her constituents have an issue with her they can vote her out.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Democrat infighting over agenda and achievable plans

Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:21 pm

seb146 wrote:

"Harassed" is a funny way of saying she was asked by constituents. I doubt she will survive the next election. Even with right wing voting restrictions in place and right wing gerrymandering, Democrats and moderates are not happy with her.


The hard left left is unhappy with her not the moderates I would be more worried about 22' not 24'.

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