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readytotaxi
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The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:55 pm

"The Pandora Papers is a leak of almost 12 million documents that reveals hidden wealth, tax avoidance and, in some cases, money laundering by some of the world's rich and powerful."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58780561

Well they all seem to be at it, nothing changes. ;)
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:12 pm

nope. Although our finance minister is in there with a small investment, which he had sold one week before he became a minister. He might have to resign over this. Being in the papers while tax avoidance is something he (and his department) should be trying to combat is not something that goes well together. We'll see how that is going to develop.

Another "interesting" person mentioned is of course Tony Blair, being a socialist and the avoiding taxes that is also something to think about.
 
737307
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:21 pm

And as usual, American politicians are conspicuously missing from these papers.
Last edited by 737307 on Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Tugger
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:22 pm

The real issue is the legal avoidance aspects. I get it, I avoid whatever taxes I can too, filing to take advantage of whatever allowances are available to me. Many people do that. The difference is the scale. At scale using these schemes can pay for themselves, so you pay some smart legal or accounting type to find every option possible, but average people seldom achieve that.

For someone making a 9 million dollar real estate transaction (like Blair) versus an average citizen doing a $90,000 transaction, the $422 thousand dollar savings with using an offshore entity can pay for itself, but not so much a potential $4,000.00 dollar savings for the average schmoe.

Tugg
 
737307
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:32 pm

Tugger wrote:
The real issue is the legal avoidance aspects. I get it, I avoid whatever taxes I can too, filing to take advantage of whatever allowances are available to me. Many people do that. The difference is the scale. At scale using these schemes can pay for themselves, so you pay some smart legal or accounting type to find every option possible, but average people seldom achieve that.
Tugg


The real issue is the blatant hypocrisy of politicians.
They are the ones that are big buddies with billionaires and do their bidding. They are the ones who voted for these loopholes. And now they cry crocodile tears about the same? Give me break. :thumbsdown:
 
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Tugger
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:38 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Tugger wrote:
The real issue is the legal avoidance aspects. I get it, I avoid whatever taxes I can too, filing to take advantage of whatever allowances are available to me. Many people do that. The difference is the scale. At scale using these schemes can pay for themselves, so you pay some smart legal or accounting type to find every option possible, but average people seldom achieve that.
Tugg


The real issue is the blatant hypocrisy of politicians.
They are the ones that are big buddies with billionaires and do their bidding. They are the ones who voted for these loopholes. And now they cry crocodile tears about the same? Give me break. :thumbsdown:

Sorry, those loopholes are available to everyone and the people/the voters elect those people and re-elect them and let them pass this legislation. There is no hypocrisy with say people need to pay taxes appropriately and those same people taking the legal options available to them. It is just whinging or whining to say others shouldn't do what you would do.

Just stop the loopholes and carve outs. But we elect the people that enact them.

Tugg
 
737307
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:42 pm

Tugger wrote:
Sorry, those loopholes are available to everyone and the people/the voters elect those people and re-elect them and let them pass this legislation. There is no hypocrisy with say people need to pay taxes appropriately and those same people taking the legal options available to them. It is just whinging or whining to say others shouldn't do what you would do.

Just stop the loopholes and carve outs. But we elect the people that enact them.

Tugg


The "carried interest" loophole is of no use to most people, except if you are a wealthy hedge fund manager/owner.
And guess what? This loophole is protected in the new Biden budget, but taxes have to go up for everyone else! Right!!!

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/30/lobbyin ... -says.html
 
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Tugger
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:47 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Sorry, those loopholes are available to everyone and the people/the voters elect those people and re-elect them and let them pass this legislation. There is no hypocrisy with say people need to pay taxes appropriately and those same people taking the legal options available to them. It is just whinging or whining to say others shouldn't do what you would do.

Just stop the loopholes and carve outs. But we elect the people that enact them.

Tugg


The "carried interest" loophole is of no use to most people, except if you are a wealthy hedge fund manager/owner.
And guess what? This loophole is protected in the new Biden budget, but taxes have to go up for everyone else! Right!!!

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/30/lobbyin ... -says.html

Yup, I am not a fan of such things. I don't get it as it seems it should be an easy one to kill but it persists.

The also hate the other side, when people who are employed by the government complain about taxes being to high and the government being wasteful. Then max out in every way possible for themselves, even if a little questionable, to max out retirement and pension and medical payments.

But of course why shouldn't they do that? The options are available to them, there for the taking!

Tugg
 
wingman
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:13 pm

Tugger wrote:

Just stop the loopholes and carve outs. But we elect the people that enact them.

Tugg


Or "Just stop the loopholes and carve outs. But the rich bankroll the people that protect them."

As money in politics grows so will wealth inequality. And someday that inequality will reach a breaking point. It's why so many politicians, bankrollers and entertainment opinion channels spend every waking moment making the issues about everything else. Whatever the loop hole is I'd say fine, Warren Buffet can enjoy it up to $1M in income at an 8% effective rate, every dollar over should be at 30 or 40, no matter how it's generated. I don't say that as any kind of socialist, I say that as someone who dreads the day that the 180M Americans living below, at, near or 1 job loss away from poverty wake up real pissed off and get organized about it. That day is coming.
 
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seb146
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:29 pm

People talk about taxing the rich then see reports like this and say "meh.... what are you going to do?" Some of those same people do not want to tax the rich at all but are still angry that the rich get away with things like this. Maybe it is time we taxed the rich and hold the accountable for crimes they commit.
 
GDB
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:50 pm

Dutchy wrote:
nope. Although our finance minister is in there with a small investment, which he had sold one week before he became a minister. He might have to resign over this. Being in the papers while tax avoidance is something he (and his department) should be trying to combat is not something that goes well together. We'll see how that is going to develop.

Another "interesting" person mentioned is of course Tony Blair, being a socialist and the avoiding taxes that is also something to think about.


In European terms more a moderate Social Democrat, unlike European ones however he came to office after 18 years of policies uncommon in Europe, which the ‘moderate’ part was not minded to change very much, the ‘social democratic’ part meant higher spending in areas like health and education as well as being much more socially liberal than the Tories were then.
Not the first time however that the Blair’s have compromised themselves around property, being near the moral toxic waste dump of these Pandora Papers will just further diminish his reputation, that began when those WMDs were not found and the reasoning behind the UKs involvement in that war emerged.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:48 pm

Flat tax, everyone after the first $75.000 pays 15% in income tax, regardless of source. If that doesn’t raise enough money, so sorry, politicians you don’t get anymore until proven performance. Pols ought to be paid by performance.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:26 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Flat tax, everyone after the first $75.000 pays 15% in income tax, regardless of source. If that doesn’t raise enough money, so sorry, politicians you don’t get anymore until proven performance. Pols ought to be paid by performance.


Rich people don't have income, they have revenue from wealth. Regardless, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:28 pm

GDB wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
nope. Although our finance minister is in there with a small investment, which he had sold one week before he became a minister. He might have to resign over this. Being in the papers while tax avoidance is something he (and his department) should be trying to combat is not something that goes well together. We'll see how that is going to develop.

Another "interesting" person mentioned is of course Tony Blair, being a socialist and the avoiding taxes that is also something to think about.


In European terms more a moderate Social Democrat, unlike European ones however he came to office after 18 years of policies uncommon in Europe, which the ‘moderate’ part was not minded to change very much, the ‘social democratic’ part meant higher spending in areas like health and education as well as being much more socially liberal than the Tories were then.
Not the first time however that the Blair’s have compromised themselves around property, being near the moral toxic waste dump of these Pandora Papers will just further diminish his reputation, that began when those WMDs were not found and the reasoning behind the UKs involvement in that war emerged.


Blair was more an advocate of the 3rd way, indeed. But you know what I mean right?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Flat tax, everyone after the first $75.000 pays 15% in income tax, regardless of source. If that doesn’t raise enough money, so sorry, politicians you don’t get anymore until proven performance. Pols ought to be paid by performance.


Rich people don't have income, they have revenue from wealth. Regardless, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.


See posts, 6, 7, 8, and 9, this thread, it is about tax avoidance and how to cure it. Simple one rate flat tax on all income, REGARDLESS of source, would reduce tax arbitrage. Low rates would reduce incentives to move money around.
 
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Tugger
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:06 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Flat tax, everyone after the first $75.000 pays 15% in income tax, regardless of source. If that doesn’t raise enough money, so sorry, politicians you don’t get anymore until proven performance. Pols ought to be paid by performance.


Rich people don't have income, they have revenue from wealth. Regardless, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.


See posts, 6, 7, 8, and 9, this thread, it is about tax avoidance and how to cure it. Simple one rate flat tax on all income, REGARDLESS of source, would reduce tax arbitrage. Low rates would reduce incentives to move money around.

So basically all monies/revenues/incomes/increases in personal net worth, that you gain in any given year?

Tugg
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:09 pm

No, just income whether fro realized capital gains, wage, interest, winnings etc. Your 401k increases by a million bucks, no tax; take out your RMD, it’s taxed at 15% after the $75,000
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:20 am

Tax avoidance isn't necessarily illegal. So the bigger question should be the source of income, especially for politicians.

One thing that I just thought about is this - why isn't there someone enterprising enough to offer such services to average Joes so that they can exploit the same loopholes as the fat cats?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:56 pm

wingman wrote:
Tugger wrote:

Just stop the loopholes and carve outs. But we elect the people that enact them.

Tugg


Or "Just stop the loopholes and carve outs. But the rich bankroll the people that protect them."

As money in politics grows so will wealth inequality. And someday that inequality will reach a breaking point. It's why so many politicians, bankrollers and entertainment opinion channels spend every waking moment making the issues about everything else. Whatever the loop hole is I'd say fine, Warren Buffet can enjoy it up to $1M in income at an 8% effective rate, every dollar over should be at 30 or 40, no matter how it's generated. I don't say that as any kind of socialist, I say that as someone who dreads the day that the 180M Americans living below, at, near or 1 job loss away from poverty wake up real pissed off and get organized about it. That day is coming.


Populism in its worst form, whether from the left or right invariable ruins the economy, impoverishes the vast majority and hands out all of the rewards to the one percent. But it is true, there are a large minority of Americans who long for it. Oddly enough the best political leaders may offer a little populism, a little Libertarianism, a little socialism, a little authoritarianism, and best the mix changes from election to election.
 
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seb146
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:34 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Tax avoidance isn't necessarily illegal. So the bigger question should be the source of income, especially for politicians.

One thing that I just thought about is this - why isn't there someone enterprising enough to offer such services to average Joes so that they can exploit the same loopholes as the fat cats?


Average Joes do not have that kind of cash to invest. We don't have capital gains to write off, we don't have stocks to write off, we don't have massive corporate expenses. There are very few things we can write off. We can not write off transportation expenses except very specific cases, we can not write off food we take to work, we can not write off housing. Those of us who have children can get credit for that, so it is something.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:59 pm

Business lunches and other meals are write of for most people on expense accounts. I suspect most business jets get the same, but don't know the rules.
 
pune
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:35 pm

Had read this quite sometime back. Appropriate for the time :(

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... y-1187564/
 
LCDFlight
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:41 pm

Tugger wrote:
The real issue is the legal avoidance aspects. I get it, I avoid whatever taxes I can too, filing to take advantage of whatever allowances are available to me. Many people do that. The difference is the scale. At scale using these schemes can pay for themselves, so you pay some smart legal or accounting type to find every option possible, but average people seldom achieve that.

For someone making a 9 million dollar real estate transaction (like Blair) versus an average citizen doing a $90,000 transaction, the $422 thousand dollar savings with using an offshore entity can pay for itself, but not so much a potential $4,000.00 dollar savings for the average schmoe.

Tugg


Very true! And you have to know that corporate tax works the same way. Small and medium to medium-large corporations get screwed. Big companies can pay tax
Consultants and lawyers to halve their tax bill. The solution is simplification. Fewer regulations. Every rich person pays around the same rate. Every business pays the same low rate. Taxing small and medium business heavily is an extremely wrong agenda.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:42 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Tax avoidance isn't necessarily illegal. So the bigger question should be the source of income, especially for politicians.

One thing that I just thought about is this - why isn't there someone enterprising enough to offer such services to average Joes so that they can exploit the same loopholes as the fat cats?


Actually, there are options. For example, ETFs tax rules on capital gains are a bit different than those rules on mutual funds, which appear very much the same. The rules, however, make an ETF investment about 1% more efficient than the same money in a mutual fund. Sounds like not much, but over time is a huge advantage. It’s not hard to earn 4%-6% in a tax efficient ETF today for amounts as low as $50,000.
 
johns624
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:02 pm

seb146 wrote:
Average Joes do not have that kind of cash to invest. We don't have capital gains to write off, we don't have stocks to write off.
"Average Joes" should have these. If you're just planning on SS and an IRA, you probably won't have enough money in retirement.
 
hashtagconfused
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:18 pm

seb146 wrote:
Average Joes do not have that kind of cash to invest. We don't have capital gains to write off, we don't have stocks to write off,


how does one "write off capital gains" or "write off stocks"?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:39 pm

Good question, you can’t write-off either one.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:14 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Good question, you can’t write-off either one.

You defer or find legal ways to increase ones basis.

I'm becoming a flat taxer on income, capital gains (excl. 401k until pulled out) and those investment incomes. Also, a tax on luxury goods to prevent (including jets, cars over the price of the median income).

Too many loopholes. Far too many.

Lightsaber
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:29 pm

lightsaber wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Good question, you can’t write-off either one.

You defer or find legal ways to increase ones basis.

I'm becoming a flat taxer on income, capital gains (excl. 401k until pulled out) and those investment incomes. Also, a tax on luxury goods to prevent (including jets, cars over the price of the median income).

Too many loopholes. Far too many.

Lightsaber


Luxury taxes were tried by the Bush 41 and it was a mess, lots of unemployed workers in industries based on luxury goods. Bad idea. You can’t “write off” capital gains”; you can sell losses to offset gains, you can time losses and gains, you can change the basis, step up on death prominently but you can’t write them off.

BTW, next time you see a fancy jacked up pickup with a sign on the door—it’s a business investment and a tax deduction. Same with an EV, other people are paying Musk for someone’s car.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:18 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Good question, you can’t write-off either one.

You defer or find legal ways to increase ones basis.

I'm becoming a flat taxer on income, capital gains (excl. 401k until pulled out) and those investment incomes. Also, a tax on luxury goods to prevent (including jets, cars over the price of the median income).

Too many loopholes. Far too many.

Lightsaber


Luxury taxes were tried by the Bush 41 and it was a mess, lots of unemployed workers in industries based on luxury goods. Bad idea. You can’t “write off” capital gains”; you can sell losses to offset gains, you can time losses and gains, you can change the basis, step up on death prominently but you can’t write them off.

BTW, next time you see a fancy jacked up pickup with a sign on the door—it’s a business investment and a tax deduction. Same with an EV, other people are paying Musk for someone’s car.


The one thing I don't understand about America is why not have a consumption tax like a Goods & Services Tax or Value Added Tax, the way Europe and many other country do it? That way you can tax the rich in other ways beside income alone.
 
hashtagconfused
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:57 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

The one thing I don't understand about America is why not have a consumption tax like a Goods & Services Tax or Value Added Tax, the way Europe and many other country do it? That way you can tax the rich in other ways beside income alone.


the US has sales tax and property taxes. property tax is a big one that is often overlooked when talking about the amount of taxes the "wealthy" pay. federal tax rates are usually what is referenced. but since the homes they own can be quite valuable, the property taxes can add up
 
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seb146
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:08 pm

hashtagconfused wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Average Joes do not have that kind of cash to invest. We don't have capital gains to write off, we don't have stocks to write off,


how does one "write off capital gains" or "write off stocks"?


It is also called "offsetting" and not "writing off" but both can be done.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/reporting- ... ort%20term.

But, again, the "average Joe" either does not make enough for this to matter or has none to begin with. And, yes, we are planning on only living on Social Security or, if we are lucky, an IRA also. If we can afford to retire.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:07 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
You defer or find legal ways to increase ones basis.

I'm becoming a flat taxer on income, capital gains (excl. 401k until pulled out) and those investment incomes. Also, a tax on luxury goods to prevent (including jets, cars over the price of the median income).

Too many loopholes. Far too many.

Lightsaber


Luxury taxes were tried by the Bush 41 and it was a mess, lots of unemployed workers in industries based on luxury goods. Bad idea. You can’t “write off” capital gains”; you can sell losses to offset gains, you can time losses and gains, you can change the basis, step up on death prominently but you can’t write them off.

BTW, next time you see a fancy jacked up pickup with a sign on the door—it’s a business investment and a tax deduction. Same with an EV, other people are paying Musk for someone’s car.


The one thing I don't understand about America is why not have a consumption tax like a Goods & Services Tax or Value Added Tax, the way Europe and many other country do it? That way you can tax the rich in other ways beside income alone.


The political issue in the US is it’s too easily adjusted upwards and too regressive. Compared the most EU nations or Australia, the US middle income quintile get very lightly taxed at the Federal level.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:14 pm

seb146 wrote:
hashtagconfused wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Average Joes do not have that kind of cash to invest. We don't have capital gains to write off, we don't have stocks to write off,


how does one "write off capital gains" or "write off stocks"?


It is also called "offsetting" and not "writing off" but both can be done.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/reporting- ... ort%20term.

But, again, the "average Joe" either does not make enough for this to matter or has none to begin with. And, yes, we are planning on only living on Social Security or, if we are lucky, an IRA also. If we can afford to retire.


79% of all US employees have access to a 401k at their employer. Even putting in just enough to make the match, if offered, makes you interested in markets, capital gains taxation.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:21 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Luxury taxes were tried by the Bush 41 and it was a mess, lots of unemployed workers in industries based on luxury goods. Bad idea. You can’t “write off” capital gains”; you can sell losses to offset gains, you can time losses and gains, you can change the basis, step up on death prominently but you can’t write them off.

BTW, next time you see a fancy jacked up pickup with a sign on the door—it’s a business investment and a tax deduction. Same with an EV, other people are paying Musk for someone’s car.


The one thing I don't understand about America is why not have a consumption tax like a Goods & Services Tax or Value Added Tax, the way Europe and many other country do it? That way you can tax the rich in other ways beside income alone.


The political issue in the US is it’s too easily adjusted upwards and too regressive. Compared the most EU nations or Australia, the US middle income quintile get very lightly taxed at the Federal level.


Except as you know, in those countries they pay more for peace of mind. Those higher taxes pay for NHS and pension that avoid any high cost outlay with health needs or retirement living later.
 
hashtagconfused
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:42 am

seb146 wrote:
hashtagconfused wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Average Joes do not have that kind of cash to invest. We don't have capital gains to write off, we don't have stocks to write off,


how does one "write off capital gains" or "write off stocks"?


It is also called "offsetting" and not "writing off" but both can be done.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/reporting- ... ort%20term.

But, again, the "average Joe" either does not make enough for this to matter or has none to begin with. And, yes, we are planning on only living on Social Security or, if we are lucky, an IRA also. If we can afford to retire.


although "offsetting" was not mentioned in the link provided i understand you are referring to only having to pay taxes on the net profit or gain from a investments sold in a period. i believe that option is available to everyone. and i am not sure what benefit there would be to anyone to lose enough money to make it worth it on their taxes since the amount lost would always be greater than the savings in the amount of taxes paid.
 
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zkojq
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:36 am

Many of these issues stem from the fact that you can create a company on paper and have it incorporated in essentially whatever jurisdiction that you like, regardless of where A) most of the employees are and B) where the business's actual operations take place. It's patently ridiculous.

Also ridiculous that the Big Four accounting firms simultaneously advise governments on legislation and methods of clamping down on tax avoidance whilst simultaneously advising wealthy individuals and corporations on how to shirk their tax responsibilities.
 
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scbriml
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:55 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Tax avoidance isn't necessarily illegal.


By definition, tax avoidance is legal. It's everyone's duty to avoid paying a penny more in tax than you absolutely have to, using every legal means at your disposal. Tax evasion, on the other hand, is very much illegal.

hashtagconfused wrote:
the US has sales tax and property taxes. property tax is a big one that is often overlooked when talking about the amount of taxes the "wealthy" pay. federal tax rates are usually what is referenced. but since the homes they own can be quite valuable, the property taxes can add up


But again, these taxes are easy to avoid through setting up shell companies in the Caymans or somewhere similar. The leaked papers showed that Middle East royals are buying up huge swathes of high-end London properties through overseas shell companies and avoiding paying millions of pounds in taxes on these properties.


I certainly don't blame people for utilising these unfair loopholes - I say they're unfair because while in theory they're available to anyone, you need to be avoiding tax on a huge scale in order to end up ahead. The "average person" can't afford to set up offshore shell companies to avoid paying tax on their £250,000 house. The issue is not people using these loopholes, the issue is governments not closing these loopholes.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:06 am

Dutchy wrote:
nope. Although our finance minister is in there with a small investment, which he had sold one week before he became a minister. He might have to resign over this. Being in the papers while tax avoidance is something he (and his department) should be trying to combat is not something that goes well together. We'll see how that is going to develop.

Another "interesting" person mentioned is of course Tony Blair, being a socialist and the avoiding taxes that is also something to think about.


Tony Blair is a champagne socialist, not a socialist.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:28 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Good question, you can’t write-off either one.

You defer or find legal ways to increase ones basis.

I'm becoming a flat taxer on income, capital gains (excl. 401k until pulled out) and those investment incomes. Also, a tax on luxury goods to prevent (including jets, cars over the price of the median income).

Too many loopholes. Far too many.

Lightsaber


Luxury taxes were tried by the Bush 41 and it was a mess, lots of unemployed workers in industries based on luxury goods. Bad idea. You can’t “write off” capital gains”; you can sell losses to offset gains, you can time losses and gains, you can change the basis, step up on death prominently but you can’t write them off.

BTW, next time you see a fancy jacked up pickup with a sign on the door—it’s a business investment and a tax deduction. Same with an EV, other people are paying Musk for someone’s car.


Are there many luxury goods manufacturers in the US?
 
petertenthije
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:56 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Are there many luxury goods manufacturers in the US?

Various business jets come to mind, from small cessnas all the way up to Boeing’s.
 
flyguy89
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:14 am

Kiwirob wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
You defer or find legal ways to increase ones basis.

I'm becoming a flat taxer on income, capital gains (excl. 401k until pulled out) and those investment incomes. Also, a tax on luxury goods to prevent (including jets, cars over the price of the median income).

Too many loopholes. Far too many.

Lightsaber


Luxury taxes were tried by the Bush 41 and it was a mess, lots of unemployed workers in industries based on luxury goods. Bad idea. You can’t “write off” capital gains”; you can sell losses to offset gains, you can time losses and gains, you can change the basis, step up on death prominently but you can’t write them off.

BTW, next time you see a fancy jacked up pickup with a sign on the door—it’s a business investment and a tax deduction. Same with an EV, other people are paying Musk for someone’s car.


Are there many luxury goods manufacturers in the US?

Between companies like Cessna, Gulfstream, Beechcraft, Learjet, Bell Textron, Sikorsky, recreational boat and vehicle manufacturers, luxury car manufacturing…it’s certainly not an insignificant part of the economy.
 
JJJ
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:36 am

hashtagconfused wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

The one thing I don't understand about America is why not have a consumption tax like a Goods & Services Tax or Value Added Tax, the way Europe and many other country do it? That way you can tax the rich in other ways beside income alone.


the US has sales tax and property taxes. property tax is a big one that is often overlooked when talking about the amount of taxes the "wealthy" pay.


Definitely. I had quite the culture shock when in the market for a house in the US which seems cheap at first but then property taxes (and crazy high insurance) shoot prices up.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:34 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Are there many luxury goods manufacturers in the US?

Various business jets come to mind, from small cessnas all the way up to Boeing’s.


That's not what most people generally refer to as luxury goods.
 
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Tugger
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:46 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Are there many luxury goods manufacturers in the US?

Various business jets come to mind, from small cessnas all the way up to Boeing’s.


That's not what most people generally refer to as luxury goods.

Simply put: Yes.
From aircraft as noted to Louis Vuitton (see link for why: https://coutureusa.com/blogs/news/our-f ... ury-brands) to Tiffany and Apple (High End and if you want something else look at AlienWare) to Harley Davdison to Jack Daniel (top end) there are many. The USA probably has more "luxury goods manufacturers" than any other single country. Though I am sure many can give the US a run for its money.

Tugg
 
johns624
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:35 pm

seb146 wrote:
hashtagconfused wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Average Joes do not have that kind of cash to invest. We don't have capital gains to write off, we don't have stocks to write off,


how does one "write off capital gains" or "write off stocks"?


It is also called "offsetting" and not "writing off" but both can be done.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/reporting- ... ort%20term.

But, again, the "average Joe" either does not make enough for this to matter or has none to begin with. And, yes, we are planning on only living on Social Security or, if we are lucky, an IRA also. If we can afford to retire.
The key is to live below your means. If you can't afford to contribute to an IRA, something is wrong with your lifestyle. It's not all about today, it's about tomorrow.
 
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seb146
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:44 pm

johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
hashtagconfused wrote:

how does one "write off capital gains" or "write off stocks"?


It is also called "offsetting" and not "writing off" but both can be done.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/reporting- ... ort%20term.

But, again, the "average Joe" either does not make enough for this to matter or has none to begin with. And, yes, we are planning on only living on Social Security or, if we are lucky, an IRA also. If we can afford to retire.
The key is to live below your means. If you can't afford to contribute to an IRA, something is wrong with your lifestyle. It's not all about today, it's about tomorrow.


Why do you think we have so many homeless? They can not afford a house or an apartment, so they move into a tent in some alley or park. For many, it is only about today. Surviving another day.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:46 pm

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Various business jets come to mind, from small cessnas all the way up to Boeing’s.


That's not what most people generally refer to as luxury goods.

Simply put: Yes.
From aircraft as noted to Louis Vuitton (see link for why: https://coutureusa.com/blogs/news/our-f ... ury-brands) to Tiffany and Apple (High End and if you want something else look at AlienWare) to Harley Davdison to Jack Daniel (top end) there are many. The USA probably has more "luxury goods manufacturers" than any other single country. Though I am sure many can give the US a run for its money.

Tugg


You’re confusing high end brands with luxury brands, Apple is not a luxury brand, neither is Harley Davidson. The country with the most luxury goods manufacturers is Italy, and has been for decades.

The largest luxury goods brands are almost all located in Europe.

https://www.gq.com.au/style/news/the-wo ... 75329ef65b

China is poised to overtake the US as the worlds largest market for luxury goods.
 
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Tugger
Posts: 11532
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:06 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

That's not what most people generally refer to as luxury goods.

Simply put: Yes.
From aircraft as noted to Louis Vuitton (see link for why: https://coutureusa.com/blogs/news/our-f ... ury-brands) to Tiffany and Apple (High End and if you want something else look at AlienWare) to Harley Davdison to Jack Daniel (top end) there are many. The USA probably has more "luxury goods manufacturers" than any other single country. Though I am sure many can give the US a run for its money.

Tugg


You’re confusing high end brands with luxury brands, Apple is not a luxury brand, neither is Harley Davidson. The country with the most luxury goods manufacturers is Italy, and has been for decades.

The largest luxury goods brands are almost all located in Europe.

https://www.gq.com.au/style/news/the-wo ... 75329ef65b

China is poised to overtake the US as the worlds largest market for luxury goods.

OK, you are just talking the corporate band name homes and niche luxury products. Gotcha.

Tugg
 
johns624
Posts: 4272
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Re: The Pandora Papers - are we really susprised?

Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:09 pm

seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

It is also called "offsetting" and not "writing off" but both can be done.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/reporting- ... ort%20term.

But, again, the "average Joe" either does not make enough for this to matter or has none to begin with. And, yes, we are planning on only living on Social Security or, if we are lucky, an IRA also. If we can afford to retire.
The key is to live below your means. If you can't afford to contribute to an IRA, something is wrong with your lifestyle. It's not all about today, it's about tomorrow.


Why do you think we have so many homeless? They can not afford a house or an apartment, so they move into a tent in some alley or park. For many, it is only about today. Surviving another day.
i wasn't talking about homeless people. I was talking about YOU. You have two incomes and can't afford to save anything for retirement. Something is wrong there. Either you're living above your means or you have to reassess your job and work skills.

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