Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
frmrCapCadet wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/10/13/great-resignation-faq-quit-your-job/
There are entire large classifications of jobs which don't pay enough nor have enough benefits to pay for food, housing, medical care, elderly care, let along raising a family. EU, even the UK, subsidizes people to cover these kinds of expenses. The US does not. Raising pay for this 'incomed' population will cause some major inflation, but not recurring. Want to go to a restaurant? Pay more. Want to have educations for your kids? Pay more. Want to be looked after in assisted living or even more expensive memory care units? Pay more. I would prefer to see higher income taxes, and then covered insurance to enable all of this. What is your plan? Two things governments to well - raise armies and provide insurance. Again how will we pay for all of this?
LCDFlight wrote:Paying low paid people more money would be a constant / permanent source of inflation. Things would simply cost more, both for the rich and (this is crucial) for the poor also.
B777LRF wrote:LCDFlight wrote:Paying low paid people more money would be a constant / permanent source of inflation. Things would simply cost more, both for the rich and (this is crucial) for the poor also.
Yes, because as has been demonstrated so clearly in Scandinavia, providing even the lowest paid with a liveable salary, subsidised housing and nurseries for low earners, universal education and healthcare, payed for by high taxes, brings absolute misery, wide-spread dissatisfaction, high crime, high inflation and everyone's worse of.
No, wait, that's not it. Happiest countries on the earth and pretty much the envy of the world, that's what it brought. Sorry, so easy to confuse the two.
Newark727 wrote:No you see, because of inflation, we had absolutely no choice but to keep making the billionaires even richer while social mobility and wages stay static everywhere else. Hands were completely tied. (Collects paycheck from Koch brothers think tank)
LCDFlight wrote:frmrCapCadet wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/10/13/great-resignation-faq-quit-your-job/
There are entire large classifications of jobs which don't pay enough nor have enough benefits to pay for food, housing, medical care, elderly care, let along raising a family. EU, even the UK, subsidizes people to cover these kinds of expenses. The US does not. Raising pay for this 'incomed' population will cause some major inflation, but not recurring. Want to go to a restaurant? Pay more. Want to have educations for your kids? Pay more. Want to be looked after in assisted living or even more expensive memory care units? Pay more. I would prefer to see higher income taxes, and then covered insurance to enable all of this. What is your plan? Two things governments to well - raise armies and provide insurance. Again how will we pay for all of this?
Paying low paid people more money would be a constant / permanent source of inflation. Things would simply cost more, both for the rich and (this is crucial) for the poor also. This would mean, after a 10% inflation, that a 10% wage increase would have no effect whatsoever. Rent goes up, food goes up. Meanwhile, as businesses get less competitive, it would be harder to justify hiring the lowest wage people whose skills don’t justify a healthy salary and benefits package.
People quitting their jobs is an effect caused by the reluctance to work that Covid caused, both from government handouts and kids being kept out of school.
So the situation is better than usual for most of the people who are working. Easier to quit and get a raise.
LCDFlight wrote:That's just ruthless.hiring the lowest wage people whose skills don’t justify a healthy salary and benefits package.
GalaxyFlyer wrote:Convince 325 million Americans to vote for high middle income taxes, I agree, but ain’t happening.
johns624 wrote:Wages seem to have gone up quite a bit in the last 6 months, yet everyone still has signs out.
seb146 wrote:Is anyone else seeing this? People complaining about things but don't lift a finger to help? The ports are backed up because qualified candidates can not be found. Restaurants are closing early and even entirely on certain days because people will not work. Stores have long lines because cashiers and stock people can not be found. If you are complaining, go get those jobs. Stimulate the economy. That's how capitalism works. All of that "they don't pay what I am worth" and "they don't give benefits I need" is irrelevant. Isn't it?
Kiwirob wrote:seb146 wrote:Is anyone else seeing this? People complaining about things but don't lift a finger to help? The ports are backed up because qualified candidates can not be found. Restaurants are closing early and even entirely on certain days because people will not work. Stores have long lines because cashiers and stock people can not be found. If you are complaining, go get those jobs. Stimulate the economy. That's how capitalism works. All of that "they don't pay what I am worth" and "they don't give benefits I need" is irrelevant. Isn't it?
You still have cashiers in supermarkets? A lot of the supermarkets around where I live are converting to self scan.
frmrCapCadet wrote:The State of California itself is a big part of the problem. Container drayage is about the lowest paid part of the trucking business. That's why it's mostly small companies that you've never heard of, using very old hand-me-down tractors. Well, the state has outlawed trucks 2006 and older. Many have left the business since they can't afford a newer truck.Operating a shipyard train - sounds fun, especially the wages those guys (and now gals) get. They are at the apex of the salary system of blue collar workers. Probably over a couple hundred grand a year, With an 'in', I had a union job working my way through school, entry level though. It is not them that creates the backlog. Try the 'per trip' lowly paid truckers who transfer boxes from shore to ultimate carrier. (no longer a teamster job, at least in Seattle).
seb146 wrote:Is anyone else seeing this? People complaining about things but don't lift a finger to help? The ports are backed up because qualified candidates can not be found. Restaurants are closing early and even entirely on certain days because people will not work. Stores have long lines because cashiers and stock people can not be found. If you are complaining, go get those jobs. Stimulate the economy. That's how capitalism works. All of that "they don't pay what I am worth" and "they don't give benefits I need" is irrelevant. Isn't it?
lightsaber wrote:RIght now aerospace has a major great resignation problem. The industry benefits are good, but not great like before (e.g., no pension except at Boeing and maybe a few others, but not my work). Senior engineers are getting so burned out, it has become surprising when I don't know someone announcing retirement. Now many are going to other states to work other fields (e.g., demand for optical engineers in medicine just as defense has a HUGE demand for them). People want work/life balance.Kiwirob wrote:You still have cashiers in supermarkets? A lot of the supermarkets around where I live are converting to self scan.
First, low level jobs are having trouble hiring. In particular "dead end" jobs like cashiers. That said, so many stores now have apps. My favorite warehouse store put in a scan as you go app and now 70% of people do that (a cashier is required for any alcohol purchases and a few non-prescription medicines that have minimum ages) and just go down one dedicated isle for those who already paid, although it took a year and the pandemic to get out enough bugs (first 3 months, half the time I couldn't scan a few items so it was put them back or wait for the cashier).
We did create a system where the unskilled have a better lifestyle not-working than working. Now we have another issue, apps and automation are reducing unskilled jobs quickly as the companies cannot raise wages on huge labor forces and meet targets.
What matters is trucking companies are already having trouble hiring:
https://www.fox9.com/news/minnesota-com ... in-lingers
We've broken the jobs ladder and the question is how to fix it? When a store has an app and another doesn't, I'm just going to go to the one easier for me.
Lightsaber
johns624 wrote:People don't want to be drivers because of all the time away from home and the relatively low pay. Most long haul drivers are gone 2-3 weeks at a time and then are only home for 2-3 days. Many times, if you're waiting to load or unload, you're burning "work" hours without any pay for it. Average PPM is around $.40-45 cents. Think about it. That $45,000 for driving 100,000 miles in a year. That's 2500 miles a week. You hardly have any social or home life.
pay for drivers ranging from $78,000 to $100,000 on average.
Tugger wrote:Old Dominion is just one company. They are an LTL carrier. I doubt they hire any no experience or recent truck driving school graduates. Most local companies require you to get at least a couple of years of OTR experience first. That salary range probably includes both pay and benefits.johns624 wrote:People don't want to be drivers because of all the time away from home and the relatively low pay. Most long haul drivers are gone 2-3 weeks at a time and then are only home for 2-3 days. Many times, if you're waiting to load or unload, you're burning "work" hours without any pay for it. Average PPM is around $.40-45 cents. Think about it. That $45,000 for driving 100,000 miles in a year. That's 2500 miles a week. You hardly have any social or home life.
The linked article is saying that the pay nowadays is much higher:pay for drivers ranging from $78,000 to $100,000 on average.
So double what you note. And again, a lot of driving is local and the driver can be home each night (local being one that drives 75-150 miles out and back). Others are out for a day and back. There are also independent versus employed drivers. The long haul driver is the classic "trucker" but not the only one.
Tugg
johns624 wrote:Tugger wrote:Old Dominion is just one company. They are an LTL carrier. I doubt they hire any no experience or recent truck driving school graduates. Most local companies require you to get at least a couple of years of OTR experience first. That salary range probably includes both pay and benefits.johns624 wrote:People don't want to be drivers because of all the time away from home and the relatively low pay. Most long haul drivers are gone 2-3 weeks at a time and then are only home for 2-3 days. Many times, if you're waiting to load or unload, you're burning "work" hours without any pay for it. Average PPM is around $.40-45 cents. Think about it. That $45,000 for driving 100,000 miles in a year. That's 2500 miles a week. You hardly have any social or home life.
The linked article is saying that the pay nowadays is much higher:pay for drivers ranging from $78,000 to $100,000 on average.
So double what you note. And again, a lot of driving is local and the driver can be home each night (local being one that drives 75-150 miles out and back). Others are out for a day and back. There are also independent versus employed drivers. The long haul driver is the classic "trucker" but not the only one.
Tugg
stratable wrote:seb146 wrote:Is anyone else seeing this? People complaining about things but don't lift a finger to help? The ports are backed up because qualified candidates can not be found. Restaurants are closing early and even entirely on certain days because people will not work. Stores have long lines because cashiers and stock people can not be found. If you are complaining, go get those jobs. Stimulate the economy. That's how capitalism works. All of that "they don't pay what I am worth" and "they don't give benefits I need" is irrelevant. Isn't it?
First, why would you work when you don't get paid a decent wage and don't receive any benefits?
Second, capitalism also means there's a labour market, i.e. employers and employees negotiate the terms of service.
If you're not an attractive employer, people will not work for you.
lightsaber wrote:RIght now aerospace has a major great resignation problem. The industry benefits are good, but not great like before (e.g., no pension except at Boeing and maybe a few others, but not my work). Senior engineers are getting so burned out, it has become surprising when I don't know someone announcing retirement. Now many are going to other states to work other fields (e.g., demand for optical engineers in medicine just as defense has a HUGE demand for them). People want work/life balance.Kiwirob wrote:seb146 wrote:Is anyone else seeing this? People complaining about things but don't lift a finger to help? The ports are backed up because qualified candidates can not be found. Restaurants are closing early and even entirely on certain days because people will not work. Stores have long lines because cashiers and stock people can not be found. If you are complaining, go get those jobs. Stimulate the economy. That's how capitalism works. All of that "they don't pay what I am worth" and "they don't give benefits I need" is irrelevant. Isn't it?
You still have cashiers in supermarkets? A lot of the supermarkets around where I live are converting to self scan.
First, low level jobs are having trouble hiring. In particular "dead end" jobs like cashiers. That said, so many stores now have apps. My favorite warehouse store put in a scan as you go app and now 70% of people do that (a cashier is required for any alcohol purchases and a few non-prescription medicines that have minimum ages) and just go down one dedicated isle for those who already paid, although it took a year and the pandemic to get out enough bugs (first 3 months, half the time I couldn't scan a few items so it was put them back or wait for the cashier).
We did create a system where the unskilled have a better lifestyle not-working than working. Now we have another issue, apps and automation are reducing unskilled jobs quickly as the companies cannot raise wages on huge labor forces and meet targets.
What matters is trucking companies are already having trouble hiring:
https://www.fox9.com/news/minnesota-com ... in-lingers
We've broken the jobs ladder and the question is how to fix it? When a store has an app and another doesn't, I'm just going to go to the one easier for me.
Lightsaber
johns624 wrote:Sorry, I wouldn't take one of those jobs because I'm retired. I worked 28 years in a warehouse, plus other jobs. I had about 4 months off between when I turned 16 and retired at 61. It was hard, dirty work but I did it, and now I'm done.
einsteinboricua wrote:For the group of people that is quitting low wage jobs, it's a double edged sword, because while I DO agree that the current minimum wage and even $10/hr are too little, where exactly do we draw the line when it comes to experience and pay? When I did my first internship with a company (a software engineering position), I was paid the equivalent of $26/hr for that summer. I turned down medical, but began putting money to retirement and I was given vacation and sick leave (and I was free to use it how I wanted or liquidate it upon finishing the internship). I will be damned if a McDonald's cashier earns just as much without any sort of experience or requirement. A cashier that's earned their way by putting in work and years of service earning $26/hr is something I could respect; the 18yr old fresh out of school and bumming around? Nope!
And even then, if we'll be paying a "living wage" to unskilled labor, what does that mean for jobs that DO require skills? The disparity is still going to be there. If flipping hamburgers is with $30/hr, what's the price of coding for a company?
Do hamburger flippers deserve a living wage? Yes. Is their job worth a living wage? Probably not, but it can be mitigated with universal/heavily subsidized education and healthcare so that people can move on from that kind of job without worrying too much about their finances. For all the hype from conservatives about how some people don't pay taxes, this would be quite an easy sell as I'm sure that these folks (which DO pay taxes) would contribute to a program where everyone benefits.