https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... -your-job/

There are entire large classifications of jobs which don't pay enough nor have enough benefits to pay for food, housing, medical care, elderly care, let along raising a family. EU, even the UK, subsidizes people to cover these kinds of expenses. The US does not. Raising pay for this 'incomed' population will cause some major inflation, but not recurring. Want to go to a restaurant? Pay more. Want to have educations for your kids? Pay more. Want to be looked after in assisted living or even more expensive memory care units? Pay more. I would prefer to see higher income taxes, and then covered insurance to enable all of this. What is your plan? Two things governments to well - raise armies and provide insurance. Again how will we pay for all of this?

Interesting that the article at one point claims some people are still “scared” to return to work.

People are realizing their worth.

Most of the labor shortages aren’t out of fear. It’s out of frustration. Used to be that the boss had a bigger house, a nicer car. Now the boss is going to space for fun, and you’re working full time but still need government assistance to survive. The boss makes more per hour than almost any of their employees will make in a lifetime.

Or in the case of the service/retail type jobs. Usually no or minimal benefits, low pay, long hours, irregular schedules, persistent short staffing, oh and a good portion of the customers will take out their frustration on you…and then the boss will blame you.

But wahhhhh this generation doesn’t want to work because the govt gave them a few thousand dollars. It’s not the low pay and the terrible benefits and the at-will employment. No, it’s the entitlement!

frmrCapCadet wrote:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/10/13/great-resignation-faq-quit-your-job/

There are entire large classifications of jobs which don't pay enough nor have enough benefits to pay for food, housing, medical care, elderly care, let along raising a family. EU, even the UK, subsidizes people to cover these kinds of expenses. The US does not. Raising pay for this 'incomed' population will cause some major inflation, but not recurring. Want to go to a restaurant? Pay more. Want to have educations for your kids? Pay more. Want to be looked after in assisted living or even more expensive memory care units? Pay more. I would prefer to see higher income taxes, and then covered insurance to enable all of this. What is your plan? Two things governments to well - raise armies and provide insurance. Again how will we pay for all of this?

Paying low paid people more money would be a constant / permanent source of inflation. Things would simply cost more, both for the rich and (this is crucial) for the poor also. This would mean, after a 10% inflation, that a 10% wage increase would have no effect whatsoever. Rent goes up, food goes up. Meanwhile, as businesses get less competitive, it would be harder to justify hiring the lowest wage people whose skills don’t justify a healthy salary and benefits package.

People quitting their jobs is an effect caused by the reluctance to work that Covid caused, both from government handouts and kids being kept out of school.

So the situation is better than usual for most of the people who are working. Easier to quit and get a raise.

LCDFlight wrote:

Paying low paid people more money would be a constant / permanent source of inflation. Things would simply cost more, both for the rich and (this is crucial) for the poor also.

Yes, because as has been demonstrated so clearly in Scandinavia, providing even the lowest paid with a liveable salary, subsidised housing and nurseries for low earners, universal education and healthcare, payed for by high taxes, brings absolute misery, wide-spread dissatisfaction, high crime, high inflation and everyone's worse of.

No, wait, that's not it. Happiest countries on the earth and pretty much the envy of the world, that's what it brought. Sorry, so easy to confuse the two.

No you see, because of inflation, we had absolutely no choice but to keep making the billionaires even richer while social mobility and wages stay static everywhere else. Hands were completely tied. (Collects paycheck from Koch brothers think tank)

B777LRF wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Paying low paid people more money would be a constant / permanent source of inflation. Things would simply cost more, both for the rich and (this is crucial) for the poor also.

Yes, because as has been demonstrated so clearly in Scandinavia, providing even the lowest paid with a liveable salary, subsidised housing and nurseries for low earners, universal education and healthcare, payed for by high taxes, brings absolute misery, wide-spread dissatisfaction, high crime, high inflation and everyone's worse of.

No, wait, that's not it. Happiest countries on the earth and pretty much the envy of the world, that's what it brought. Sorry, so easy to confuse the two.

Emigrate 325 million .Scandinavian people to pay Scandinavian taxes into the US and I agree. Convince 325 million Americans to vote for high middle income taxes, I agree, but ain’t happening.

Newark727 wrote:

No you see, because of inflation, we had absolutely no choice but to keep making the billionaires even richer while social mobility and wages stay static everywhere else. Hands were completely tied. (Collects paycheck from Koch brothers think tank)

Absolutely what will happen, yes. People will still earn $50,000 per year, but that money will barely afford a dirt hut in the future. It will look like São Paulo. Middle class Americans will pay their local gang or cartel leader to defend their favela.

I understand some people, such as Trump, believe that the US can become another Norway or a Sweden. Hahahahah. America once was a lot like that. Current trends do not suggest we are ever going back to that.

I think the real reason so many entry level retail/foodservice jobs have gone unfilled is that high school students never work anymore. Look at the people you see working them now, a lot are retirees whose check isn't enough. Back when I went to school, most kids worked their way through HS. That's where they learned job skills and a work ethic. It also taught them that if they didn't do good in school, that job was all that they could look forward to.

There are two great resignations simultaneously - one in lower wage work and another in white collar/tech work. In the latter many employees are leaving companies that are being strict about return to offices or otherwise telegraphing inflexibility with future remote work.

LCDFlight wrote:

frmrCapCadet wrote:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/10/13/great-resignation-faq-quit-your-job/

There are entire large classifications of jobs which don't pay enough nor have enough benefits to pay for food, housing, medical care, elderly care, let along raising a family. EU, even the UK, subsidizes people to cover these kinds of expenses. The US does not. Raising pay for this 'incomed' population will cause some major inflation, but not recurring. Want to go to a restaurant? Pay more. Want to have educations for your kids? Pay more. Want to be looked after in assisted living or even more expensive memory care units? Pay more. I would prefer to see higher income taxes, and then covered insurance to enable all of this. What is your plan? Two things governments to well - raise armies and provide insurance. Again how will we pay for all of this?

Paying low paid people more money would be a constant / permanent source of inflation. Things would simply cost more, both for the rich and (this is crucial) for the poor also. This would mean, after a 10% inflation, that a 10% wage increase would have no effect whatsoever. Rent goes up, food goes up. Meanwhile, as businesses get less competitive, it would be harder to justify hiring the lowest wage people whose skills don’t justify a healthy salary and benefits package.

People quitting their jobs is an effect caused by the reluctance to work that Covid caused, both from government handouts and kids being kept out of school.

So the situation is better than usual for most of the people who are working. Easier to quit and get a raise.

This is generally not true when looking at Economics research. A minimum wage that provides the possibility to live a normal live in society does not cause significant inflation.
And it seems very American to me to argue

LCDFlight wrote:

hiring the lowest wage people whose skills don’t justify a healthy salary and benefits package.

That's just ruthless.

Heck even one of the recently announced Nobel Prize winning economist advocates for a $15 minimum wage in the US.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/can ... -economics

In my opinion it comes down to what GalaxyFlyer said:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Convince 325 million Americans to vote for high middle income taxes, I agree, but ain’t happening.

The lack of empathy for those who look after our elderly in institutions, restaurant workers, farm workers is truly sad. And just who thinks those are non-essential workers?

Another option is to start your own business. People had plenty of time - being locked up for about a year - to think about that.

Wages seem to have gone up quite a bit in the last 6 months, yet everyone still has signs out.

johns624 wrote:

Wages seem to have gone up quite a bit in the last 6 months, yet everyone still has signs out.

Offer and demand... That's how capitalism works, right?

And it seems the offer is still not satisfying the demand.

Is anyone else seeing this? People complaining about things but don't lift a finger to help? The ports are backed up because qualified candidates can not be found. Restaurants are closing early and even entirely on certain days because people will not work. Stores have long lines because cashiers and stock people can not be found. If you are complaining, go get those jobs. Stimulate the economy. That's how capitalism works. All of that "they don't pay what I am worth" and "they don't give benefits I need" is irrelevant. Isn't it?

seb146 wrote:

Is anyone else seeing this? People complaining about things but don't lift a finger to help? The ports are backed up because qualified candidates can not be found. Restaurants are closing early and even entirely on certain days because people will not work. Stores have long lines because cashiers and stock people can not be found. If you are complaining, go get those jobs. Stimulate the economy. That's how capitalism works. All of that "they don't pay what I am worth" and "they don't give benefits I need" is irrelevant. Isn't it?

You still have cashiers in supermarkets? A lot of the supermarkets around where I live are converting to self scan.

In a way I'd like to be unemployed right now, I would try out some of these jobs. Operating a shipyard crane seems like fun.

About minimum wage, I think it needs to depend on location. For the whole US 15$ is probably fine because it's still quite low, but at the opposite end in expensive places it should be more than that. And for all jobs where your presence is needed, then that minimum wage should basically be local.

Here in France we have a national minimum wage and it doesn't make sense, the only reason it works is because we have a ton of subsidized housing (and subsidies for people to pay for it, too, so basically free housing), but that causes other issues.

Some things I would like to add to the above comments.

Many women left the workforce during the pandemic to take care of children, that childcare facilities were shut down and even now to prevent their yet to be vaccinated children as not yet able to get the vaccine. Many women also left as after realizing that after childcare, vehicle, long commutes, lousy jobs so-so pay that it wasn't worth working outside the home for very little added to family incomes.

Some noted above that many teens are not taking jobs they often used to. Many jobs like in fast food as operating hazardous machinery require one to be 18 to operate. Those in high school are limited in hours they can work including late or early hours. Many are involved in after school activities (like sports) that further limit when they can work. There there is the 'shame' that comes with working at a McD's some parents and teens themselves don't want.

Then you have those in high risk, stressful jobs like in healthcare, where mandated overtime (even if well paid), being overworked, unable to take time off and can't go anywhere, 'burnout', has chased people out of them.

A few may have found other ways to make money 'off the books' from selling stuff online, dealing with cryptocurrency, their investments paying good.

Some with health problems dropped out to reduce their risk, those who got Covid-19 may have long-term health problems that limit their ability to work.

Operating a shipyard train - sounds fun, especially the wages those guys (and now gals) get. They are at the apex of the salary system of blue collar workers. Probably over a couple hundred grand a year, With an 'in', I had a union job working my way through school, entry level though. It is not them that creates the backlog. Try the 'per trip' lowly paid truckers who transfer boxes from shore to ultimate carrier. (no longer a teamster job, at least in Seattle).

RIght now aerospace has a major great resignation problem. The industry benefits are good, but not great like before (e.g., no pension except at Boeing and maybe a few others, but not my work). Senior engineers are getting so burned out, it has become surprising when I don't know someone announcing retirement. Now many are going to other states to work other fields (e.g., demand for optical engineers in medicine just as defense has a HUGE demand for them). People want work/life balance.

Kiwirob wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Is anyone else seeing this? People complaining about things but don't lift a finger to help? The ports are backed up because qualified candidates can not be found. Restaurants are closing early and even entirely on certain days because people will not work. Stores have long lines because cashiers and stock people can not be found. If you are complaining, go get those jobs. Stimulate the economy. That's how capitalism works. All of that "they don't pay what I am worth" and "they don't give benefits I need" is irrelevant. Isn't it?

You still have cashiers in supermarkets? A lot of the supermarkets around where I live are converting to self scan.

First, low level jobs are having trouble hiring. In particular "dead end" jobs like cashiers. That said, so many stores now have apps. My favorite warehouse store put in a scan as you go app and now 70% of people do that (a cashier is required for any alcohol purchases and a few non-prescription medicines that have minimum ages) and just go down one dedicated isle for those who already paid, although it took a year and the pandemic to get out enough bugs (first 3 months, half the time I couldn't scan a few items so it was put them back or wait for the cashier).

We did create a system where the unskilled have a better lifestyle not-working than working. Now we have another issue, apps and automation are reducing unskilled jobs quickly as the companies cannot raise wages on huge labor forces and meet targets.

What matters is trucking companies are already having trouble hiring:
https://www.fox9.com/news/minnesota-com ... in-lingers

We've broken the jobs ladder and the question is how to fix it? When a store has an app and another doesn't, I'm just going to go to the one easier for me.

Lightsaber

frmrCapCadet wrote:

Operating a shipyard train - sounds fun, especially the wages those guys (and now gals) get. They are at the apex of the salary system of blue collar workers. Probably over a couple hundred grand a year, With an 'in', I had a union job working my way through school, entry level though. It is not them that creates the backlog. Try the 'per trip' lowly paid truckers who transfer boxes from shore to ultimate carrier. (no longer a teamster job, at least in Seattle).

The State of California itself is a big part of the problem. Container drayage is about the lowest paid part of the trucking business. That's why it's mostly small companies that you've never heard of, using very old hand-me-down tractors. Well, the state has outlawed trucks 2006 and older. Many have left the business since they can't afford a newer truck.

seb146 wrote:

Is anyone else seeing this? People complaining about things but don't lift a finger to help? The ports are backed up because qualified candidates can not be found. Restaurants are closing early and even entirely on certain days because people will not work. Stores have long lines because cashiers and stock people can not be found. If you are complaining, go get those jobs. Stimulate the economy. That's how capitalism works. All of that "they don't pay what I am worth" and "they don't give benefits I need" is irrelevant. Isn't it?

First, why would you work when you don't get paid a decent wage and don't receive any benefits?

Second, capitalism also means there's a labour market, i.e. employers and employees negotiate the terms of service.
If you're not an attractive employer, people will not work for you.

lightsaber wrote:

RIght now aerospace has a major great resignation problem. The industry benefits are good, but not great like before (e.g., no pension except at Boeing and maybe a few others, but not my work). Senior engineers are getting so burned out, it has become surprising when I don't know someone announcing retirement. Now many are going to other states to work other fields (e.g., demand for optical engineers in medicine just as defense has a HUGE demand for them). People want work/life balance.

Kiwirob wrote:

You still have cashiers in supermarkets? A lot of the supermarkets around where I live are converting to self scan.

First, low level jobs are having trouble hiring. In particular "dead end" jobs like cashiers. That said, so many stores now have apps. My favorite warehouse store put in a scan as you go app and now 70% of people do that (a cashier is required for any alcohol purchases and a few non-prescription medicines that have minimum ages) and just go down one dedicated isle for those who already paid, although it took a year and the pandemic to get out enough bugs (first 3 months, half the time I couldn't scan a few items so it was put them back or wait for the cashier).

We did create a system where the unskilled have a better lifestyle not-working than working. Now we have another issue, apps and automation are reducing unskilled jobs quickly as the companies cannot raise wages on huge labor forces and meet targets.

What matters is trucking companies are already having trouble hiring:
https://www.fox9.com/news/minnesota-com ... in-lingers

We've broken the jobs ladder and the question is how to fix it? When a store has an app and another doesn't, I'm just going to go to the one easier for me.

Lightsaber

Honestly I dislike the amount of work companies are now offloading onto their customers. From self check out to requiring the use of an app on your own device (offloading the cost of hardware to the customer) to do business in the store or restaurant. (I am a bit of a privacy nut and don't give out my email or phone number etc. and apps just collect data on you and I don't want that.)

It is the future of course, has been for ever (self-service gas and online check-in for flights was an anathema at one point). Self-check out is fine for small trips for me (1-3 items?) but I definitely prefer the cashier option for larger. I do laugh that at several stores I go to the self check line is longer than the cashier ones. I walk past the people lined up for self check, go to the open cashier and am out before the others.

WRT trucking, I would think driving would be quite attractive to a lot of the people that would have done other now extinct lowish level jobs. You get to sit much of the day, you have full mobile data access on the road (and a lot of jobs or local so you can be home after work). But then we have also told our youth that you must get a college degree (often requiring them to take on a lot of debt) and anything less, like trucking, is to be looked down on.

Tugg

People don't want to be drivers because of all the time away from home and the relatively low pay. Most long haul drivers are gone 2-3 weeks at a time and then are only home for 2-3 days. Many times, if you're waiting to load or unload, you're burning "work" hours without any pay for it. Average PPM is around $.40-45 cents. Think about it. That $45,000 for driving 100,000 miles in a year. That's 2500 miles a week. You hardly have any social or home life.

johns624 wrote:

People don't want to be drivers because of all the time away from home and the relatively low pay. Most long haul drivers are gone 2-3 weeks at a time and then are only home for 2-3 days. Many times, if you're waiting to load or unload, you're burning "work" hours without any pay for it. Average PPM is around $.40-45 cents. Think about it. That $45,000 for driving 100,000 miles in a year. That's 2500 miles a week. You hardly have any social or home life.

The linked article is saying that the pay nowadays is much higher:

pay for drivers ranging from $78,000 to $100,000 on average.

So double what you note. And again, a lot of driving is local and the driver can be home each night (local being one that drives 75-150 miles out and back). Others are out for a day and back. There are also independent versus employed drivers. The long haul driver is the classic "trucker" but not the only one.

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

johns624 wrote:

People don't want to be drivers because of all the time away from home and the relatively low pay. Most long haul drivers are gone 2-3 weeks at a time and then are only home for 2-3 days. Many times, if you're waiting to load or unload, you're burning "work" hours without any pay for it. Average PPM is around $.40-45 cents. Think about it. That $45,000 for driving 100,000 miles in a year. That's 2500 miles a week. You hardly have any social or home life.

The linked article is saying that the pay nowadays is much higher:

pay for drivers ranging from $78,000 to $100,000 on average.

So double what you note. And again, a lot of driving is local and the driver can be home each night (local being one that drives 75-150 miles out and back). Others are out for a day and back. There are also independent versus employed drivers. The long haul driver is the classic "trucker" but not the only one.

Tugg

Old Dominion is just one company. They are an LTL carrier. I doubt they hire any no experience or recent truck driving school graduates. Most local companies require you to get at least a couple of years of OTR experience first. That salary range probably includes both pay and benefits.

johns624 wrote:

Tugger wrote:

johns624 wrote:

People don't want to be drivers because of all the time away from home and the relatively low pay. Most long haul drivers are gone 2-3 weeks at a time and then are only home for 2-3 days. Many times, if you're waiting to load or unload, you're burning "work" hours without any pay for it. Average PPM is around $.40-45 cents. Think about it. That $45,000 for driving 100,000 miles in a year. That's 2500 miles a week. You hardly have any social or home life.

The linked article is saying that the pay nowadays is much higher:

pay for drivers ranging from $78,000 to $100,000 on average.

So double what you note. And again, a lot of driving is local and the driver can be home each night (local being one that drives 75-150 miles out and back). Others are out for a day and back. There are also independent versus employed drivers. The long haul driver is the classic "trucker" but not the only one.

Tugg

Old Dominion is just one company. They are an LTL carrier. I doubt they hire any no experience or recent truck driving school graduates. Most local companies require you to get at least a couple of years of OTR experience first. That salary range probably includes both pay and benefits.

Understood, but I think it is still higher than what you are noting, though the "first year pay" is in that range. This is decently explained here: https://schneiderjobs.com/truck-driving ... driver-pay

Tugg

stratable wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Is anyone else seeing this? People complaining about things but don't lift a finger to help? The ports are backed up because qualified candidates can not be found. Restaurants are closing early and even entirely on certain days because people will not work. Stores have long lines because cashiers and stock people can not be found. If you are complaining, go get those jobs. Stimulate the economy. That's how capitalism works. All of that "they don't pay what I am worth" and "they don't give benefits I need" is irrelevant. Isn't it?

First, why would you work when you don't get paid a decent wage and don't receive any benefits?

Second, capitalism also means there's a labour market, i.e. employers and employees negotiate the terms of service.
If you're not an attractive employer, people will not work for you.

Yes to both of those. People are complaining because they are inconvenienced. They can't get items at stores, they can't get food when they want. All because the workers understand their worth and refuse to take anything less. So, the people complaining the loudest should take those jobs if they want to stop being inconvenienced.

lightsaber wrote:

RIght now aerospace has a major great resignation problem. The industry benefits are good, but not great like before (e.g., no pension except at Boeing and maybe a few others, but not my work). Senior engineers are getting so burned out, it has become surprising when I don't know someone announcing retirement. Now many are going to other states to work other fields (e.g., demand for optical engineers in medicine just as defense has a HUGE demand for them). People want work/life balance.

Kiwirob wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Is anyone else seeing this? People complaining about things but don't lift a finger to help? The ports are backed up because qualified candidates can not be found. Restaurants are closing early and even entirely on certain days because people will not work. Stores have long lines because cashiers and stock people can not be found. If you are complaining, go get those jobs. Stimulate the economy. That's how capitalism works. All of that "they don't pay what I am worth" and "they don't give benefits I need" is irrelevant. Isn't it?

You still have cashiers in supermarkets? A lot of the supermarkets around where I live are converting to self scan.

First, low level jobs are having trouble hiring. In particular "dead end" jobs like cashiers. That said, so many stores now have apps. My favorite warehouse store put in a scan as you go app and now 70% of people do that (a cashier is required for any alcohol purchases and a few non-prescription medicines that have minimum ages) and just go down one dedicated isle for those who already paid, although it took a year and the pandemic to get out enough bugs (first 3 months, half the time I couldn't scan a few items so it was put them back or wait for the cashier).

We did create a system where the unskilled have a better lifestyle not-working than working. Now we have another issue, apps and automation are reducing unskilled jobs quickly as the companies cannot raise wages on huge labor forces and meet targets.

What matters is trucking companies are already having trouble hiring:
https://www.fox9.com/news/minnesota-com ... in-lingers

We've broken the jobs ladder and the question is how to fix it? When a store has an app and another doesn't, I'm just going to go to the one easier for me.

Lightsaber

No one has a "better lifestyle" not working. There is another thread about homeless in Denver. How is that better than working a dead end job? Welfare runs out and people get kicked out of their home and end up in a tent on the sidewalk. How is that better?

Sorry, I wouldn't take one of those jobs because I'm retired. I worked 28 years in a warehouse, plus other jobs. I had about 4 months off between when I turned 16 and retired at 61. It was hard, dirty work but I did it, and now I'm done.

johns624 wrote:

Sorry, I wouldn't take one of those jobs because I'm retired. I worked 28 years in a warehouse, plus other jobs. I had about 4 months off between when I turned 16 and retired at 61. It was hard, dirty work but I did it, and now I'm done.

Thank you for your service. Enjoy your time now!

And for those that find that comment improper, I thing we too often don't value the people that day in and day out do the work that is needed for our nation and economy to work and function. And those people allow all the other amazing things we have in our nation. So many think these jobs are "lowly" or beneath outright full respect, which find silly. I am glad for everyone that work at all the tough jobs.

Tugg

For the group of people that is quitting low wage jobs, it's a double edged sword, because while I DO agree that the current minimum wage and even $10/hr are too little, where exactly do we draw the line when it comes to experience and pay? When I did my first internship with a company (a software engineering position), I was paid the equivalent of $26/hr for that summer. I turned down medical, but began putting money to retirement and I was given vacation and sick leave (and I was free to use it how I wanted or liquidate it upon finishing the internship). I will be damned if a McDonald's cashier earns just as much without any sort of experience or requirement. A cashier that's earned their way by putting in work and years of service earning $26/hr is something I could respect; the 18yr old fresh out of school and bumming around? Nope!

And even then, if we'll be paying a "living wage" to unskilled labor, what does that mean for jobs that DO require skills? The disparity is still going to be there. If flipping hamburgers is with $30/hr, what's the price of coding for a company?

Do hamburger flippers deserve a living wage? Yes. Is their job worth a living wage? Probably not, but it can be mitigated with universal/heavily subsidized education and healthcare so that people can move on from that kind of job without worrying too much about their finances. For all the hype from conservatives about how some people don't pay taxes, this would be quite an easy sell as I'm sure that these folks (which DO pay taxes) would contribute to a program where everyone benefits.

einsteinboricua wrote:

For the group of people that is quitting low wage jobs, it's a double edged sword, because while I DO agree that the current minimum wage and even $10/hr are too little, where exactly do we draw the line when it comes to experience and pay? When I did my first internship with a company (a software engineering position), I was paid the equivalent of $26/hr for that summer. I turned down medical, but began putting money to retirement and I was given vacation and sick leave (and I was free to use it how I wanted or liquidate it upon finishing the internship). I will be damned if a McDonald's cashier earns just as much without any sort of experience or requirement. A cashier that's earned their way by putting in work and years of service earning $26/hr is something I could respect; the 18yr old fresh out of school and bumming around? Nope!

And even then, if we'll be paying a "living wage" to unskilled labor, what does that mean for jobs that DO require skills? The disparity is still going to be there. If flipping hamburgers is with $30/hr, what's the price of coding for a company?

Do hamburger flippers deserve a living wage? Yes. Is their job worth a living wage? Probably not, but it can be mitigated with universal/heavily subsidized education and healthcare so that people can move on from that kind of job without worrying too much about their finances. For all the hype from conservatives about how some people don't pay taxes, this would be quite an easy sell as I'm sure that these folks (which DO pay taxes) would contribute to a program where everyone benefits.

I hear your point. I can still remember in nursing school someone saying to us on the one side of this issue why should someone working at McDonalds make more (I think they were saying $15) than an EMT/emergency medical when their job is much harder, more physical and has more responsibility and my answer was - why was the EMT forced to take that wage, surely we can find a way to pay EMTs a respectable wage. Then one time I was at a Supercuts and the hairstylist snapped at me for saying teachers in my locality should be paid better. This was back when starting teachers made sub 25k in some districts. She came back with "Teachers shouldnt be in it for the money!" I about died and shut my mouth up for the rest of that haircut.

This type of class conflict-keeping score income issue you mention I feel is going to be very fascinating to see play itself out. I almost felt like when I was having all these conversations I was seeing the literal effects of implosion of union visibility/credibility in most areas of the economy and I thought to myself hmm this bodes well.