As was warned when HB3979 was passed by the Texas legislature last May, things have come to their logical conclusion in a school district in Southlake, TX. As the new law requires schools to promote 'balance' on supposedly controversial topics, one administrator offered that their interpretation includes topics like the Holocaust.

“Just try to remember the concepts of [House Bill] 3979,” Gina Peddy, a Carroll administrator, said in the recording obtained by NBC News. “And make sure that if you have a book on the Holocaust, that you have one that has an opposing, that has other perspectives.”

A teacher responded: “How do you oppose the Holocaust?”

According to the article in DMN, even local GOP leaders said that was a bridge way too far.

State Sen. Kelly Hancock, R-North Richland Hills, wrote on Twitter that “Southlake just got it wrong.”

“School administrators should know the difference between factual historical events and fiction,” Hancock wrote. “No legislation is suggesting the action this administrator is promoting.”

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/educati ... c-reports/

Extremists and supremacists have argued for years that traditional history curriculum in the US puts too much blind faith in the historic account of the Holocaust and should include so-called alternative perspectives popular in the domain of extremism. Such views are 100% antisemitic and cannot be pandered to, ever. It's pretty stunning that anyone in a school administrator position would fail to recognize that 1. this is a topic with clear historical facts to be reported in any curriculum and 2. pandering to calls for balance on this topic is dangerous and opens communities to future antisemitism. Also 3. there is simply no rational 'alternate' history of the Holocaust.

Is an "alternative perspective" another term for........theory?

phatfarmlines wrote:

Is an "alternative perspective" another term for........theory?

No, a "theory" in science is when we have evidence for something. A "hypothesis" is when we have an idea in our heads with zero evidence.

Seems like a case of "garbage in, garbage out." This should have been the first possibility Texas lawmakers thought of when they decided to pass a bill to "both sides" history, but they were in too much of a hurry to own the libs.

Aaron747 wrote:

As was warned when HB3979 was passed by the Texas legislature last May, things have come to their logical conclusion in a school district in Southlake, TX. As the new law requires schools to promote 'balance' on supposedly controversial topics, one administrator offered that their interpretation includes topics like the Holocaust.

“Just try to remember the concepts of [House Bill] 3979,” Gina Peddy, a Carroll administrator, said in the recording obtained by NBC News. “And make sure that if you have a book on the Holocaust, that you have one that has an opposing, that has other perspectives.”

A teacher responded: “How do you oppose the Holocaust?”

According to the article in DMN, even local GOP leaders said that was a bridge way too far.

State Sen. Kelly Hancock, R-North Richland Hills, wrote on Twitter that “Southlake just got it wrong.”

“School administrators should know the difference between factual historical events and fiction,” Hancock wrote. “No legislation is suggesting the action this administrator is promoting.”

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/educati ... c-reports/

Extremists and supremacists have argued for years that traditional history curriculum in the US puts too much blind faith in the historic account of the Holocaust and should include so-called alternative perspectives popular in the domain of extremism. Such views are 100% antisemitic and cannot be pandered to, ever. It's pretty stunning that anyone in a school administrator position would fail to recognize that 1. this is a topic with clear historical facts to be reported in any curriculum and 2. pandering to calls for balance on this topic is dangerous and opens communities to future antisemitism. Also 3. there is simply no rational 'alternate' history of the Holocaust.

Texas has opened the doorway to extremists . Their own bill does it. IT stifles perspective and real items of discussion,

(2)AAteachers who choose to discuss current events or
widely debated and currently controversial issues of public policy
or social affairs shall, to the best of their ability, strive to
explore such issues from diverse and contending perspectives
without giving deference to any one perspective;

https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/87R/b ... 03979I.pdf



From higher up in the bill.

Athe structure, function, and processes of
government institutions at the federal, state, and local levels;
and
(3)AAthe founding documents of the United States,
including the Declaration of Independence, the United States
Constitution, the Federalist Papers (including but not limited to
Essays 10 and 51), excerpts from Alexis de Tocqueville ’s Democracy
in America, the first Lincoln-Douglas debate, and the writings of
the Founding Fathers of the United States.

Why are they so keen to present the Lincoln-Douglas debate itself? That issue was settled in the US constitution.

Surprisingly-On a fundamental level, I can somewhat understand it. But given that this is Texas, I’m sure they don’t have the same reasoning that I do.

The issue with teaching history is that it’s very easy to just say “they were bad, they did bad things, so we went over and beat them and we’re the good guys “

It’s important to realize how things got to that point. How every day people tolerated it and how it escalated.

I’m reminded of “The Third Wave” which was an experiment run by a high school teacher. The kids wondered how Nazism arose, and allegedly had some of that mentality that they’d never let that happen to them. So the teacher started a mini fascist regime within the student body that violently rose to power in less than 5 days.

The problem here is that I doubt Texas is looking at doing a deep dive into the historiography of nazism and anti Semitism

What's funny is that the Nazis never denied the Holocaust. In fact, they kept very good records of it.

FGITD wrote:

Surprisingly-On a fundamental level, I can somewhat understand it. But given that this is Texas, I’m sure they don’t have the same reasoning that I do.

So I may gain some perspective on your comment, where are you?

WesternDC6B wrote:

FGITD wrote:

Surprisingly-On a fundamental level, I can somewhat understand it. But given that this is Texas, I’m sure they don’t have the same reasoning that I do.

So I may gain some perspective on your comment, where are you?

As the old bumper stickers said-don’t blame me, I’m from Massachusetts

Not that MA isn’t a state without its own deep flaws.

In by my original post, I refer to the politicians of TX. I’ve found that with every state, there’s always a significant difference between the people (usually good) and their politicians (usually bad)

FGITD wrote:

Surprisingly-On a fundamental level, I can somewhat understand it. But given that this is Texas, I’m sure they don’t have the same reasoning that I do.

The issue with teaching history is that it’s very easy to just say “they were bad, they did bad things, so we went over and beat them and we’re the good guys “

It’s important to realize how things got to that point. How every day people tolerated it and how it escalated.

Fascist politicians not wanting to discuss fascism, not really surprising.

johns624 wrote:

What's funny is that the Nazis never denied the Holocaust. In fact, they kept very good records of it.

Ah but you see, according to the crowd who think the kippah-wearing community are the root of all evil in the world, that's *all* part of their conspiracy to garner eternal sympathy under the US and European education systems

So this would also apply to religious education?

Kiwirob wrote:

So this would also apply to religious education?

Religious education isn't publicly funded in the U.S.

What is the problem with Texas these days. First they want to control woman's bodies and now they want to deny the Holocaust?

Airstud wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

So this would also apply to religious education?

Religious education isn't publicly funded in the U.S.

Well it sort of it. Religious entities and churches are not taxed so they get a lot of public benefits for no cost. Roads, police, fire protections etc.

Tugg

Airstud wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

So this would also apply to religious education?

Religious education isn't publicly funded in the U.S.

I thought in a lot of US schools creationism and abstinence were the norm as opposed to evolution and sex ed?

Kiwirob wrote:

Airstud wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

So this would also apply to religious education?

Religious education isn't publicly funded in the U.S.

I thought in a lot of US schools creationism and abstinence were the norm as opposed to evolution and sex ed?

Not true at all with public schools. Where do you get this from?

Kiwirob wrote:

Airstud wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

So this would also apply to religious education?

Religious education isn't publicly funded in the U.S.

I thought in a lot of US schools creationism and abstinence were the norm as opposed to evolution and sex ed?

No.

Creationism, being purely a theological construct, cannot be advanced in U.S. public schools. Evolution is taught as accepted scientific principle - though some districts have had to heavily underline the words "theory of" in order to shut up those citizens who want to thump their Bibles even harder.

(The set of those districts overlaps heavily with the districts whose citizens push heavily and ignorantly for abstinence-only sex education, but that's off-topic here.)

Dieuwer wrote:

What is the problem with Texas these days. First they want to control woman's bodies and now they want to deny the Holocaust?

Where does it say they want to deny the holocaust? It leaves the topic open for discussion.

WesternDC6B wrote:

Dieuwer wrote:

What is the problem with Texas these days. First they want to control woman's bodies and now they want to deny the Holocaust?

Where does it say they want to deny the holocaust? It leaves the topic open for discussion.

Why does anyone want to leave a topic open for discussion, if the topic is a fact? Facts aren't open for discussion, they are just that, facts.

The US being built by slaves over the bodies of native americans is also a fact, but there is a Texas law saying it isn't really the case, that's why now facts are open to interpretation.

WesternDC6B wrote:

Dieuwer wrote:

What is the problem with Texas these days. First they want to control woman's bodies and now they want to deny the Holocaust?

Where does it say they want to deny the holocaust? It leaves the topic open for discussion.

What, pray tell, is to be left 'open' on discussion of the Holocaust?

petertenthije wrote:

WesternDC6B wrote:

Dieuwer wrote:

What is the problem with Texas these days. First they want to control woman's bodies and now they want to deny the Holocaust?

Where does it say they want to deny the holocaust? It leaves the topic open for discussion.

That's a bit semantic?
They don't want to deny it, but they want to option to deny it?

https://www.salon.com/2021/10/17/texas- ... w_partner/
The Texas law reportedly try to ban teaching the idea of one race is superior to another, and try to ban teaching the idea of anyone being inherently racist, according to my understanding of this report?

c933103 wrote:

petertenthije wrote:

WesternDC6B wrote:

Where does it say they want to deny the holocaust? It leaves the topic open for discussion.

That's a bit semantic?
They don't want to deny it, but they want to option to deny it?

https://www.salon.com/2021/10/17/texas- ... w_partner/
The Texas law reportedly try to ban teaching the idea of teaching one way is superior to another, and try to ban teaching the idea of anyone being inherently racist, according to my understanding of this report?

The bill was an attempt to ban CRT theory in school. Something that is inherently not taught anyway. It is more of a legal constructed lens for viewing how things have happened that have marginalized people of color over the US's existence. It has some good points, some flawed points, but all in all it is mostly for legal and academic teachings. Most people are just trying to get kids to learn about historical events in k-12 school. There is little time for deep dives on the theories of CRT.

The law as written is highly confusing as it wants a:"balanced" view of events. That doesn't really work in a world where real atrocities have been and continue to be committed based on race, sex, religion, sexual orientation. country of origin, veteran or disability status.

The law is flawed in it's writing and it's implementation.

CRT, obviously written into the constitution. Blacks counted as 60% of a person, and white people got to vote for their share of the US congress. Now Texas has grown enough to get another representative (just about all minority growth), and Texas is redistricting so angry old white men get to elect that representative. CRT in display.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

CRT, obviously written into the constitution. Blacks counted as 60% of a person, and white people got to vote for their share of the US congress. Now Texas has grown enough to get another representative (just about all minority growth), and Texas is redistricting so angry old white men get to elect that representative. CRT in display.

I do get why people are against looking at problems in US laws and society, addressing making corrections. As you noted the US constitution had significant limitations built into it. It was written just as Texas and a lot of the GOP is attempting to do now, limiting or preventing changes to "the way things are". People in power don't want changes and will fight to prevent their losing power. They want the oppression the uneven situation to remain as much as possible and will feign innocence not caring if it leaves in place things that are deleterious to other groups.

This is power we are talking about.

You note the "3/5ths" element but then say "white people. But that is not true either. Voting was limited to white, property owning males. That was how they were able to get everyone to agree and sign the constitution into law and create the USA. Since then the USA has looked at their errors and addressed them as they could. But I think we underestimate the struggle that went on to do this and the years of "the way things are" forces fighting any changes each time.

Tugg

I don't think "the Holocaust" should be taught as a unique thing in history. It WAS perhaps the "worst" example of genocide yet known, but there have been many comparable events. Human history has a lot of that. I don't think it is accurate to suggest Nazi Germany was a singular evil. Evil and murder have played a constant role in human history.

Aesma wrote:

The US being built by slaves over the bodies of native americans is also a fact, but there is a Texas law saying it isn't really the case, that's why now facts are open to interpretation.

Enslaved people deserve a lot of credit for "building the US," but so do free people. The state where I reside was about 99% built after slavery's end. It was certainly built where Native Americans were buried. I am not sure we humans have any alternative but to tread where other peoples have treaded in the past. Not to minimize the issue - in fact it is another good example of genocide.

LCDFlight wrote:

I don't think "the Holocaust" should be taught as a unique thing in history.

It would be difficult to discuss WW2 in U.S. high school history classes without mentioning the Holocaust.

phatfarmlines wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

I don't think "the Holocaust" should be taught as a unique thing in history.

It would be difficult to discuss WW2 in U.S. high school history classes without mentioning the Holocaust.

Definitely! And I think other genocides or holocausts can be mentioned as well. By capitalizing the Holocaust, it diminuates (is that a word?) other terrible mass murders in human history. I think that actually could be dangerous. Kids should know what humans have been up to for thousands of years. We are fancy apes who behave well half the time, very badly half the time.

phatfarmlines wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

I don't think "the Holocaust" should be taught as a unique thing in history.

It would be difficult to discuss WW2 in U.S. high school history classes without mentioning the Holocaust.

Do you learn that it was completely ignored during the war ? Or that the US didn't want to offer asylum to Jews during the 30's ?

Aesma wrote:

phatfarmlines wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

I don't think "the Holocaust" should be taught as a unique thing in history.

It would be difficult to discuss WW2 in U.S. high school history classes without mentioning the Holocaust.

Do you learn that it was completely ignored during the war ? Or that the US didn't want to offer asylum to Jews during the 30's ?

I recall the California curriculum of the mid-90s taught us that the full extent of genocide in Europe was not known until latter stages of the war but reports were available. We had a yearlong course titled ‘20th century world history’ and that teacher was quite knowledgeable - she even mentioned the controversy around Henry Ford, and the fact both the US and UK resisted accepting refugees. We also did very interesting two day units on the Warsaw ghetto, French and Dutch resistance, and the role of clergy in trying to help Jews escape.

Just to pick up a bit from LCD - Perhaps the truest and best science at this time would be to teach evolutionary history and morality. Can't you imagine the reaction to a class titled such. I frequently mention a book on the evolution of religion, and the point is strongly made that early religion is not about morality - it is about finding meaning, and some of those 'meanings' are not very nice. Monotheistic religion was built around power, and very much about the power of the big chiefdom, later king or emperor, who invariably is identified with that chief god.

Jewish scripture reflects pre-agricultural society, although almost undoubtedly those reflections are from much earlier cultures. Abraham was a pastoralist, and very much a dim dim pre-history personage. He was the first to become a Jew or Hebrew. All of this leads up to the stories of the first Holocausts, and certain tribes gained enough power to kill of other tribes. Kind of, because there are a lot of other tribes who also wanted to kill off any tribe in their way. Evolutionary History in action - even before America who does it even better. Whatever that means.

Aaron747 wrote:

Aesma wrote:

phatfarmlines wrote:

It would be difficult to discuss WW2 in U.S. high school history classes without mentioning the Holocaust.

Do you learn that it was completely ignored during the war ? Or that the US didn't want to offer asylum to Jews during the 30's ?

I recall the California curriculum of the mid-90s taught us that the full extent of genocide in Europe was not known until latter stages of the war but reports were available. We had a yearlong course titled ‘20th century world history’ and that teacher was quite knowledgeable - she even mentioned the controversy around Henry Ford, and the fact both the US and UK resisted accepting refugees. We also did very interesting two day units on the Warsaw ghetto, French and Dutch resistance, and the role of clergy in trying to help Jews escape.

I was in US History the year that Schindler's list came out. All the kids in the grade below me went on field trip's to see it. It is a very potent and powerful movie. In college I made a trip to the Holocaust museum in DC. Another very eye opening experience. The one thing everyone does forget about the holocaust, and other genocides is how the people get to that point. They believe a lie and have fervent faith that someone else is responsible for stopping the bad person from doing bad things.

casinterest wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Aesma wrote:

Do you learn that it was completely ignored during the war ? Or that the US didn't want to offer asylum to Jews during the 30's ?

I recall the California curriculum of the mid-90s taught us that the full extent of genocide in Europe was not known until latter stages of the war but reports were available. We had a yearlong course titled ‘20th century world history’ and that teacher was quite knowledgeable - she even mentioned the controversy around Henry Ford, and the fact both the US and UK resisted accepting refugees. We also did very interesting two day units on the Warsaw ghetto, French and Dutch resistance, and the role of clergy in trying to help Jews escape.

I was in US History the year that Schindler's list came out. All the kids in the grade below me went on field trip's to see it. It is a very potent and powerful movie. In college I made a trip to the Holocaust museum in DC. Another very eye opening experience. The one thing everyone does forget about the holocaust, and other genocides is how the people get to that point. They believe a lie and have fervent faith that someone else is responsible for stopping the bad person from doing bad things.

By my time 'Schindler's List' was already on VHS, and I think it took us a few days to finish it in class. Although good for kids who had not seen it, I felt seeing it broken into segments kind of reduced its impact and the worksheets that accompanied it were useless (true of HS worksheets in general).

I think holocausts are more about tribal loyalties and perceptions of truth. The lies come in trying to harmonize other truths that conflict. The displacement of native americans by european natives may be a classic illustration.A great book discussing all of this is Its Your Misfortune and None of My Own. My review might be, There aint nobody, various Indian tribes, Russian, British, Irish, American who weren't going after killing everyone else, and maybe some of their own tribe if the could make a buck or win a territory of their own.

https://www.amazon.com/Its-Your-Misfort ... 0806125675

It was too late to edit, so here is a link.

Aaron747 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

I recall the California curriculum of the mid-90s taught us that the full extent of genocide in Europe was not known until latter stages of the war but reports were available. We had a yearlong course titled ‘20th century world history’ and that teacher was quite knowledgeable - she even mentioned the controversy around Henry Ford, and the fact both the US and UK resisted accepting refugees. We also did very interesting two day units on the Warsaw ghetto, French and Dutch resistance, and the role of clergy in trying to help Jews escape.

I was in US History the year that Schindler's list came out. All the kids in the grade below me went on field trip's to see it. It is a very potent and powerful movie. In college I made a trip to the Holocaust museum in DC. Another very eye opening experience. The one thing everyone does forget about the holocaust, and other genocides is how the people get to that point. They believe a lie and have fervent faith that someone else is responsible for stopping the bad person from doing bad things.

By my time 'Schindler's List' was already on VHS, and I think it took us a few days to finish it in class. Although good for kids who had not seen it, I felt seeing it broken into segments kind of reduced its impact and the worksheets that accompanied it were useless (true of HS worksheets in general).

VHS, That is a format I haven't heard in a long time

Some movies are kind of bad watching on VHS. Our literature teacher had us watch to Kill a Mockingbird in class. 4 days.

I think "the other side" of the Holocaust" should be taught. And that is how one man got an entire nation to look the other way and even agree with sending millions off to death camps. Why is that part not talked about more and not taught in school more?

GDB wrote:

Aesma wrote:

FGITD wrote:

Surprisingly-On a fundamental level, I can somewhat understand it. But given that this is Texas, I’m sure they don’t have the same reasoning that I do.

The issue with teaching history is that it’s very easy to just say “they were bad, they did bad things, so we went over and beat them and we’re the good guys “

It’s important to realize how things got to that point. How every day people tolerated it and how it escalated.

Fascist politicians not wanting to discuss fascism, not really surprising.

Yes, it’s also a myth that Mussolini got the trains to run on time, not a myth that these corrupt racists cannot keep the lights on in Texas, if it is too hot, or cold.
Isn’t there an old song, like ‘the lawmakers are full of shite, deep in the heart of Texas!

The problems with electrical power have more to do with Texas not being interconnected with either the eastern or western grids, and in all fairness to Texas, when you and I joined the forums, before Gray Davis had been recalled, it was California that had a notoriously bad power distribution system (and continued to do so; consider the near destruction of Butte County in recent years by failures of PG&E infrastructure).

There is so much bigotry and ignorance on display here, it's difficult to know where to start.

But, a few observations are in order.

First of all, the school administrator at the outset (the subject of the thread) was not actually suggesting that an "opposing view" of the holocaust be taught; rather, the purpose was to highlight the potential for misuse or misunderstanding of the effect of the legislation complained-of. It's blatantly obvious that quite nearly no one who has commented here actually troubled themselves to research, read and understand what was actually happening. Sign of the times, I suppose.

The legislation has a solid, even laudable, purpose - helping to combat the growing trend towards politicization of the educational message in classrooms. It is, however, very difficult to write legislation without "unintended consequences" (trust me, I've written a few bills that actually got passed into law, and several that failed - it ain't easy at all).

As for the miscellaneous pejorative comments about Texas, well, it has often been observed that those who lack original thought resort to stereotypes and insults. Those of us who live here actually care about making life better for every Texan. People of good character can agree on the goal and disagree - civilly - on the means.

sccutler wrote:

First of all, the school administrator at the outset (the subject of the thread) was not actually suggesting that an "opposing view" of the holocaust be taught;

I thought her quote spoke for itself. I think I can speak for a lot of Jews in saying there is no acceptable 'other' or 'opposing' view of this history. Well there is an alternative view, but only sickos go there.

Aaron747 wrote:

sccutler wrote:

First of all, the school administrator at the outset (the subject of the thread) was not actually suggesting that an "opposing view" of the holocaust be taught;

I thought her quote spoke for itself. I think I can speak for a lot of Jews in saying there is no acceptable 'other' or 'opposing' view of this history. Well there is, but only sickos go there.

Again, it appears that the administrator's intent was to arouse outrage - at which she succeeded.

No dog in the hunt, and I support the underlying legislation (which, of course, says absolutely nothing about the holocaust at all), but I think her intent was to shine light on potential abuse of the legislation.

I could be mistaken.