Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Let China and the EU pay for the R&D.
DIRECTFLT wrote:PhRMA launches 7-figure ad campaign against Democrats' drug pricing measures
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/572397-phrma-launches-7-figure-ad-campaign-against-democrats-drug-pricing-measures
The Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) announced Wednesday that it is launching a seven-figure ad campaign against the proposals moving through Congress to lower prescription drug prices.
The group also released an open letter signed by the heads of all of its member companies pointing to the COVID-19 vaccines and treatments developed by the industry and arguing the proposals would “sacrifice future medical advances.”
Let China and the EU pay for the R&D.
Dieuwer wrote:How does pricing work now?
Aaron747 wrote:Dieuwer wrote:How does pricing work now?
In the US? Like this:
In the United States, the price of prescription drugs is relatively unregulated, enabling pharmaceutical companies to increase their drug prices beyond inflation rates and regardless of demand.
-The majority of a pharmaceutical company’s revenue comes from steadily increasing prices of drugs that have been on the market for some time.
-When pricing their drugs, pharmaceutical companies consider a drug's uniqueness, competition from other companies, and a drug's effectiveness.
-Companies also consider the huge research and development (R&D) costs incurred to bring a drug to market, a consideration that often leads to high prices for new drugs.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/i ... -drugs.asp
Unlike virtually every other western economy where to varying extents rates are set by government boards or by the health ministry directly.
According to the National Institute on Drug Abuse, Americans consume 75 percent of the world’s prescription drugs. Nearly three in five American adults take a prescription drug at any given time.
Dieuwer wrote:A healthier lifestyle is a must. Away with fast food other bad eating habits! That should help to prevent a lot of diseases like cancer. And in turn alleviate the need for drugs.
Aaron747 wrote:Dieuwer wrote:How does pricing work now?
In the US? Like this:
In the United States, the price of prescription drugs is relatively unregulated, enabling pharmaceutical companies to increase their drug prices beyond inflation rates and regardless of demand.
-The majority of a pharmaceutical company’s revenue comes from steadily increasing prices of drugs that have been on the market for some time.
-When pricing their drugs, pharmaceutical companies consider a drug's uniqueness, competition from other companies, and a drug's effectiveness.
-Companies also consider the huge research and development (R&D) costs incurred to bring a drug to market, a consideration that often leads to high prices for new drugs.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/i ... -drugs.asp
Unlike virtually every other western economy where to varying extents rates are set by government boards or by the health ministry directly.
stratosphere wrote:Aaron747 wrote:Dieuwer wrote:How does pricing work now?
In the US? Like this:
In the United States, the price of prescription drugs is relatively unregulated, enabling pharmaceutical companies to increase their drug prices beyond inflation rates and regardless of demand.
-The majority of a pharmaceutical company’s revenue comes from steadily increasing prices of drugs that have been on the market for some time.
-When pricing their drugs, pharmaceutical companies consider a drug's uniqueness, competition from other companies, and a drug's effectiveness.
-Companies also consider the huge research and development (R&D) costs incurred to bring a drug to market, a consideration that often leads to high prices for new drugs.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/i ... -drugs.asp
Unlike virtually every other western economy where to varying extents rates are set by government boards or by the health ministry directly.
It all comes down to lobbying of which big pharma spends big bucks.. I have said it before lobbying should be absolutely illegal. It is influence peddling and bribery plain and simple. The rest of the world negotiates their prices we should be able to as well .
seb146 wrote:So they have enough money to campaign against lowering drug prices but have no money to actually lower drug prices? Quelle surprise....
Aaron747 wrote:Dieuwer wrote:How does pricing work now?
In the US? Like this:
In the United States, the price of prescription drugs is relatively unregulated, enabling pharmaceutical companies to increase their drug prices beyond inflation rates and regardless of demand.
-The majority of a pharmaceutical company’s revenue comes from steadily increasing prices of drugs that have been on the market for some time.
-When pricing their drugs, pharmaceutical companies consider a drug's uniqueness, competition from other companies, and a drug's effectiveness.
-Companies also consider the huge research and development (R&D) costs incurred to bring a drug to market, a consideration that often leads to high prices for new drugs.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/i ... -drugs.asp
Unlike virtually every other western economy where to varying extents rates are set by government boards or by the health ministry directly.
moo wrote:Aaron747 wrote:Dieuwer wrote:How does pricing work now?
In the US? Like this:
In the United States, the price of prescription drugs is relatively unregulated, enabling pharmaceutical companies to increase their drug prices beyond inflation rates and regardless of demand.
-The majority of a pharmaceutical company’s revenue comes from steadily increasing prices of drugs that have been on the market for some time.
-When pricing their drugs, pharmaceutical companies consider a drug's uniqueness, competition from other companies, and a drug's effectiveness.
-Companies also consider the huge research and development (R&D) costs incurred to bring a drug to market, a consideration that often leads to high prices for new drugs.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/i ... -drugs.asp
Unlike virtually every other western economy where to varying extents rates are set by government boards or by the health ministry directly.
This is a common misconception - even in the UK with the NHS, drug prices are negotiated and not set, so often top tier or newer drugs and treatments are priced out of the general NHS market until they become cheaper (they may get special dispensation for specific cases, but won't be available for wider prescribed usage). The government requires pharma companies to be fair, but it does not dictate prices to them - if the pharma company wants to sell its cancer treatment for $1million a dose, then the government will just not buy it. But if the pharma company sells its cancer treatment for $50 a dose, it cannot demand $500 on contract renewal.
Dieuwer wrote:On top of this all, it seems that America is overmedicated.According to the National Institute on Drug Abuse, Americans consume 75 percent of the world’s prescription drugs. Nearly three in five American adults take a prescription drug at any given time.
einsteinboricua wrote:Dieuwer wrote:On top of this all, it seems that America is overmedicated.According to the National Institute on Drug Abuse, Americans consume 75 percent of the world’s prescription drugs. Nearly three in five American adults take a prescription drug at any given time.
Someone could also argue that prescription drugs are accessible and not necessarily that they're overmedicated. Now granted, a doctor with good judgement would not give medication to a patient upon their request. And rather than allow a patient to "experiment" with different drugs, it can be spread out such that the doctor can find out which medicine works best for a certain condition.
Growing up I was amazed at how my mom would "request" medication, as in, specify what kind she wanted us to take rather than the one that worked. Cold? Please give us Zithromax for the sore throat and decongestant and cough suppressor (I forgot their names). Allergies? Claritin/Zyrtec 90 day supply with refills please. She also tried to keep some handy so that if we fell sick again, we would have medicine at the ready (without a formal diagnosis). I wouldn't be surprised if in many places of the country, this is what's happening.
Aaron747 wrote:Dieuwer wrote:A healthier lifestyle is a must. Away with fast food other bad eating habits! That should help to prevent a lot of diseases like cancer. And in turn alleviate the need for drugs.
Okay sure - agree. But how? Just as an example, US healthcare has been preaching about the importance of lowering sodium intake since the 1980s. But in that same time:
Back in 1986, sodium content in entrees averaged 36% of the recommended daily allowance–which is pretty high for a single entree (a burger, say). Bad as that is, though, by 2016 this had increased to 47%. Thus a single fast-food entree has nearly half of an entire day's allowance of salt. Sides increased from 14% of the RDA to 26%, which means that if you have an entree and a side (fries!), you're getting 75% of your daily salt allowance. On average, they're adding 50% more salt today than in 1986.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalz ... 57c5b2723a
moo wrote:einsteinboricua wrote:Dieuwer wrote:On top of this all, it seems that America is overmedicated.
Someone could also argue that prescription drugs are accessible and not necessarily that they're overmedicated. Now granted, a doctor with good judgement would not give medication to a patient upon their request. And rather than allow a patient to "experiment" with different drugs, it can be spread out such that the doctor can find out which medicine works best for a certain condition.
Growing up I was amazed at how my mom would "request" medication, as in, specify what kind she wanted us to take rather than the one that worked. Cold? Please give us Zithromax for the sore throat and decongestant and cough suppressor (I forgot their names). Allergies? Claritin/Zyrtec 90 day supply with refills please. She also tried to keep some handy so that if we fell sick again, we would have medicine at the ready (without a formal diagnosis). I wouldn't be surprised if in many places of the country, this is what's happening.
One thing I was astounded at when I visited the US was the fact that they had *prescription* medications being advertised on TV - "got X? Ask your doctor for Y today!"
In all the countries I've lived in, only over-the-counter medications are advertised - I vaguely remember one prescription product trying the American approach back in the early 2000s and rapidly being thrown off TV, and nothing since.
Under the NHS, you get an option to try alternatives should you have an issue with one brand, but doctors generally go by the NICE guidelines and whats in the BNF books - you cant walk into a doctors surgery and say "I want Y" without a damn good reason (ie you have a history and you know you work better on Y and its documented in your notes).
Aaron747 wrote:Japanese folks always told me that was one of the most shocking items for them when going to live in the US on assignment. Pharma advertising on TV is unheard of in Japan because it's illegal in most cases.
Newark727 wrote:Aaron747 wrote:Japanese folks always told me that was one of the most shocking items for them when going to live in the US on assignment. Pharma advertising on TV is unheard of in Japan because it's illegal in most cases.
It was a great day when the ED pills went generic and we could stop seeing those goddamn Viagra and Cialis commercials.
Reinhardt wrote:DIRECTFLT wrote:
Let China and the EU pay for the R&D.
Hilarious. We (EU) , did for COVID and do for others.
ltbewr wrote:Medicare/Medicaid are the biggest payers of prescription drugs in the USA. Then add in all the medical insurance companies also paying out. That means by taxes or high insurance premiums by individuals or employers as well as individuals, individuals without insurance priced out of critical drugs are getting screwed.
A new balance is very much needed in pricing. All prescription drugs must be subject to reasonable prices for all payers. The big pharma companies, many of which are based in Europe as well as the USA make the most profits in the USA due to our lack of pricing regulations. The government should regulate pricing for all, not paying for excessive compensation of executives, the billion$ in marketing and advertising to consumers and doctors from what we all pay. Part of the pricing in the USA is our extremely costly liability litigation culture unlike almost any other country. Some reasonable regulations of excess of that is needed but it must be enough to make sure drugs are safe and effect
I would also like to see most drugs sold in the USA to be made here. A recent group of drugs I use/used had maybe only one made in the USA, the others were made in Israel, Croatia, Canada, India and possibly China. I think American taxpayers money should be kept in-country as much as possible including the profits and jobs from them as well as secure manufacturing facilities.
PPVRA wrote:ltbewr wrote:Medicare/Medicaid are the biggest payers of prescription drugs in the USA. Then add in all the medical insurance companies also paying out. That means by taxes or high insurance premiums by individuals or employers as well as individuals, individuals without insurance priced out of critical drugs are getting screwed.
A new balance is very much needed in pricing. All prescription drugs must be subject to reasonable prices for all payers. The big pharma companies, many of which are based in Europe as well as the USA make the most profits in the USA due to our lack of pricing regulations. The government should regulate pricing for all, not paying for excessive compensation of executives, the billion$ in marketing and advertising to consumers and doctors from what we all pay. Part of the pricing in the USA is our extremely costly liability litigation culture unlike almost any other country. Some reasonable regulations of excess of that is needed but it must be enough to make sure drugs are safe and effect
I would also like to see most drugs sold in the USA to be made here. A recent group of drugs I use/used had maybe only one made in the USA, the others were made in Israel, Croatia, Canada, India and possibly China. I think American taxpayers money should be kept in-country as much as possible including the profits and jobs from them as well as secure manufacturing facilities.
It is a known fact that price regulation kills investment into whatever product or service is being regulated. It is no different with pharmaceutical drugs or made in China widgets, no matter how emotionally attached one might be to one product.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd2293
What needs to be better regulated are IP rights. Not pricing freedom. Also, expedite and lower cost of regulatory approvals, including reduced legal liability. It’s absurd to claim one wants to support drug development but when it comes to experimentation, we release lawyers with pitchforks and money sniffing dogs the moment something doesn’t go precisely according to plan.
DIRECTFLT wrote:PhRMA launches 7-figure ad campaign against Democrats' drug pricing measures
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/572397-phrma-launches-7-figure-ad-campaign-against-democrats-drug-pricing-measures
The Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) announced Wednesday that it is launching a seven-figure ad campaign against the proposals moving through Congress to lower prescription drug prices.
The group also released an open letter signed by the heads of all of its member companies pointing to the COVID-19 vaccines and treatments developed by the industry and arguing the proposals would “sacrifice future medical advances.”
Let China and the EU pay for the R&D.
Phosphorus wrote:PPVRA wrote:ltbewr wrote:Medicare/Medicaid are the biggest payers of prescription drugs in the USA. Then add in all the medical insurance companies also paying out. That means by taxes or high insurance premiums by individuals or employers as well as individuals, individuals without insurance priced out of critical drugs are getting screwed.
A new balance is very much needed in pricing. All prescription drugs must be subject to reasonable prices for all payers. The big pharma companies, many of which are based in Europe as well as the USA make the most profits in the USA due to our lack of pricing regulations. The government should regulate pricing for all, not paying for excessive compensation of executives, the billion$ in marketing and advertising to consumers and doctors from what we all pay. Part of the pricing in the USA is our extremely costly liability litigation culture unlike almost any other country. Some reasonable regulations of excess of that is needed but it must be enough to make sure drugs are safe and effect
I would also like to see most drugs sold in the USA to be made here. A recent group of drugs I use/used had maybe only one made in the USA, the others were made in Israel, Croatia, Canada, India and possibly China. I think American taxpayers money should be kept in-country as much as possible including the profits and jobs from them as well as secure manufacturing facilities.
It is a known fact that price regulation kills investment into whatever product or service is being regulated. It is no different with pharmaceutical drugs or made in China widgets, no matter how emotionally attached one might be to one product.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd2293
What needs to be better regulated are IP rights. Not pricing freedom. Also, expedite and lower cost of regulatory approvals, including reduced legal liability. It’s absurd to claim one wants to support drug development but when it comes to experimentation, we release lawyers with pitchforks and money sniffing dogs the moment something doesn’t go precisely according to plan.
Cuts both ways.
I'm not sure how Medicare exactly works. .
DIRECTFLT wrote:Aaron747 wrote:Dieuwer wrote:A healthier lifestyle is a must. Away with fast food other bad eating habits! That should help to prevent a lot of diseases like cancer. And in turn alleviate the need for drugs.
Okay sure - agree. But how? Just as an example, US healthcare has been preaching about the importance of lowering sodium intake since the 1980s. But in that same time:
Back in 1986, sodium content in entrees averaged 36% of the recommended daily allowance–which is pretty high for a single entree (a burger, say). Bad as that is, though, by 2016 this had increased to 47%. Thus a single fast-food entree has nearly half of an entire day's allowance of salt. Sides increased from 14% of the RDA to 26%, which means that if you have an entree and a side (fries!), you're getting 75% of your daily salt allowance. On average, they're adding 50% more salt today than in 1986.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalz ... 57c5b2723a
And on that Note the US Govt. is finally taking some baby steps...
F.D.A. Issues Guidelines to Reduce Salt in Foods
The new recommendations are aimed at food manufacturers and restaurants. Some experts say they don’t go far enough.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/13/heal ... -food.html
Eating too much salt is making Americans sick. Even a 12% reduction can save lives
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... save-lives
FDA lowers voluntary sodium guidelines, but not to recommended levels
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/13/health/f ... index.html
And, as a comment on supply chain shortages, I have noticed that Nabisco doesn't have any "No Salt" Crackers on the selves, but they sure don't have problem getting and supplying the salted crackers.
frmrCapCadet wrote:The just about the entire medical care system in the US is in a state of market failure. Free market assumes multiple suppliers and bargaining power on both sides. The system by and large had captured pricing power using the very federal power and regulations attempting to give some power to consumers.
frmrCapCadet wrote:The just about the entire medical care system in the US is in a state of market failure. Free market assumes multiple suppliers and bargaining power on both sides. The system by and large had captured pricing power using the very federal power and regulations attempting to give some power to consumers.
PPVRA wrote:“ Bayrou, head of the centrist MoDem party and named by Macron last year as commissioner for long-term government planning, said the problem was a brain-drain from France to the United States.
Speaking on France Inter radio, he said it was "not acceptable that our best researchers, the most brilliant of our researchers, are sucked up by the American system".
He referred to Stéphane Bancel, a Frenchman who heads US-based biotech firm Moderna, whose vaccine was the second to be approved for use in the United States and Europe.”
https://www.france24.com/en/france/2021 ... of-decline
Cut through the French drama and read between the lines.
Aesma wrote:the dystopian horror show you have in the US.
Aesma wrote:PPVRA wrote:“ Bayrou, head of the centrist MoDem party and named by Macron last year as commissioner for long-term government planning, said the problem was a brain-drain from France to the United States.
Speaking on France Inter radio, he said it was "not acceptable that our best researchers, the most brilliant of our researchers, are sucked up by the American system".
He referred to Stéphane Bancel, a Frenchman who heads US-based biotech firm Moderna, whose vaccine was the second to be approved for use in the United States and Europe.”
https://www.france24.com/en/france/2021 ... of-decline
Cut through the French drama and read between the lines.
You can read between the lines both ways. If the US had adopted "populist" european ways, then more research would come from Europe, not less overall. The scientists would still be here. The managers and shareholders would be a bit less rich, so what ?
We still have doctors and surgeons despite them being paid 10 times less than in the US. No country can spend like the US, nor should they. Especially if all that money ends up ruining the world through unfettered consumption and associated CO2 emissions.
Sometimes populism is just doing what the people actually want. Very few people in Europe want their healthcare system to look remotely like the dystopian horror show you have in the US.
PPVRA wrote:Aesma wrote:PPVRA wrote:“ Bayrou, head of the centrist MoDem party and named by Macron last year as commissioner for long-term government planning, said the problem was a brain-drain from France to the United States.
Speaking on France Inter radio, he said it was "not acceptable that our best researchers, the most brilliant of our researchers, are sucked up by the American system".
He referred to Stéphane Bancel, a Frenchman who heads US-based biotech firm Moderna, whose vaccine was the second to be approved for use in the United States and Europe.”
https://www.france24.com/en/france/2021 ... of-decline
Cut through the French drama and read between the lines.
You can read between the lines both ways. If the US had adopted "populist" european ways, then more research would come from Europe, not less overall. The scientists would still be here. The managers and shareholders would be a bit less rich, so what ?
We still have doctors and surgeons despite them being paid 10 times less than in the US. No country can spend like the US, nor should they. Especially if all that money ends up ruining the world through unfettered consumption and associated CO2 emissions.
Sometimes populism is just doing what the people actually want. Very few people in Europe want their healthcare system to look remotely like the dystopian horror show you have in the US.
Yes, let’s take the carrot away from the donkey. It’ll just keep moving anyway, right? And you finally get to eat the carrot.
That’s not my view. The industry would shrink, as would global investment in pharmaceuticals. You’re souring the environment and that will turn it unsustainable.
JJJ wrote:PPVRA wrote:Aesma wrote:
You can read between the lines both ways. If the US had adopted "populist" european ways, then more research would come from Europe, not less overall. The scientists would still be here. The managers and shareholders would be a bit less rich, so what ?
We still have doctors and surgeons despite them being paid 10 times less than in the US. No country can spend like the US, nor should they. Especially if all that money ends up ruining the world through unfettered consumption and associated CO2 emissions.
Sometimes populism is just doing what the people actually want. Very few people in Europe want their healthcare system to look remotely like the dystopian horror show you have in the US.
Yes, let’s take the carrot away from the donkey. It’ll just keep moving anyway, right? And you finally get to eat the carrot.
That’s not my view. The industry would shrink, as would global investment in pharmaceuticals. You’re souring the environment and that will turn it unsustainable.
You get your news from the same people that jacked the price of insulin in the US by 6x over 10-ish years.
Time to pour some salt on them.
PPVRA wrote:JJJ wrote:PPVRA wrote:
Yes, let’s take the carrot away from the donkey. It’ll just keep moving anyway, right? And you finally get to eat the carrot.
That’s not my view. The industry would shrink, as would global investment in pharmaceuticals. You’re souring the environment and that will turn it unsustainable.
You get your news from the same people that jacked the price of insulin in the US by 6x over 10-ish years.
Time to pour some salt on them.
Like I said, we need IP reform. And Europe needs to stop pouring salt on itself before it’s gonna have to import insulin at jacked up prices. Europe needs to contribute with competition and innovation, rather than shrink.
JJJ wrote:PPVRA wrote:JJJ wrote:
You get your news from the same people that jacked the price of insulin in the US by 6x over 10-ish years.
Time to pour some salt on them.
Like I said, we need IP reform. And Europe needs to stop pouring salt on itself before it’s gonna have to import insulin at jacked up prices. Europe needs to contribute with competition and innovation, rather than shrink.
Even Ethiopia makes their own insulin now. And it's not IP what drives insulin prices in the US. Even the good stuff is generic now.
PPVRA wrote:Also, expedite and lower cost of regulatory approvals, including reduced legal liability.
PPVRA wrote:JJJ wrote:PPVRA wrote:
Like I said, we need IP reform. And Europe needs to stop pouring salt on itself before it’s gonna have to import insulin at jacked up prices. Europe needs to contribute with competition and innovation, rather than shrink.
Even Ethiopia makes their own insulin now. And it's not IP what drives insulin prices in the US. Even the good stuff is generic now.
Nope, not in the US. Only three companies control 90% of the US insulin market. Their devices used to inject insulin are patent protected and they are using this as a way to extend their pricing power over their insulin products.