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Kiwirob
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:59 pm

If this sort of issue keeps happening it would probably be easier to not hire trans people. It’s a very small group who’s voice is far out of proportion to there numbers.
 
StarAC17
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:12 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
When I decided to watch this, I did it thinking it will be pulled from Netflix. I still think it might, at the end the twitter mob will prevail and it will be pulled. If it doesn't, I will be surprised.


If it does I wonder if Chapelle can tell Netflix to shove it and then take his talents to Amazon or another platform. I remember that Spotify employees made a big deal that the platform had Joe Rogan episodes with Alex Jones on it.

Spotify stood by Rogan because they have a $100 million contract with him and also I'm betting that Rogan was smart enough to tell them that if you even try and censor me then I can walk and he would.

I remember in the late 90's when the WWF (now WWE) was controversial but that is also when it was at its best.
I remember The Rock being interviewed and he said you have this thing that is about 10 inches long (with the innuendo he was talking about his you know what), it's called a remote. Change the channel, you don't like Chapelle don't watch.

I personally think he is a better sketch comic than a stand up but will watch this in the near future.

Aaron747 wrote:
The most bizarre thing about this story is craven right media personalities suddenly coming to the defense of Netflix and Dave Chappelle. Truly bizarre...talk about people who would never get together. Chappelle wouldn't talk to Ben Shapiro or Laura Ingraham unless they let him dictate the discussion.


I bet they would now, the tides are changing and right wing media seems to be able to get these interviews much more effectively than in the past. If you are able to have an open discussion even with people that you disagree with that is what people want. The woke mob better watch themselves because they are drawing people to what they consider controversial.

I want to see discussions and the questioning of ideas as long as its civilized and these discussions can't be done effectively when you are in between commercial breaks.
 
vikkyvik
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:25 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
The first paragraph of the Vox piece, unsurprisingly, is completely misleading and uses loaded language about the special that indicates the writer hasn't actually seen it. Total garbage.


I actually don't think that article is bad. The author does seem to have watched the special, and does raise some interesting points. I may not agree with all of them, but I certainly wouldn't call it garbage.

seb146 wrote:
punching down.


I think anyone who watched the special would be amused at your choice of words.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:56 pm

vikkyvik wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
The first paragraph of the Vox piece, unsurprisingly, is completely misleading and uses loaded language about the special that indicates the writer hasn't actually seen it. Total garbage.


I actually don't think that article is bad. The author does seem to have watched the special, and does raise some interesting points. I may not agree with all of them, but I certainly wouldn't call it garbage.

seb146 wrote:
punching down.


I think anyone who watched the special would be amused at your choice of words.


I wouldn’t know as I stopped after the first paragraph. But as for ‘punching down’ you’re spot on :lol:
 
737307
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:05 am

Chappelle could turn the tables on mainstream media and simply call anyone who dares to "cancel" him a RACIST. Then, watch how quickly the mainstream media will shoot into a cramp and roll over each other apologizing and begging to be allowed to feature Chappelle again.
 
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Aesma
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:23 am

About trans activists asking for trans people to be on the board of companies. How big should the board be if every perceived or actual minority needs to be represented ? Especially in the US where you like to put people in all these boxes (by religion, sexuality, genre, skin color, origin, wealth, size, etc.).
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:54 am

Dieuwer wrote:
Chappelle could turn the tables on mainstream media and simply call anyone who dares to "cancel" him a RACIST. Then, watch how quickly the mainstream media will shoot into a cramp and roll over each other apologizing and begging to be allowed to feature Chappelle again.


Doubtful. The media never beg for anything. That is simply not how that business works. But if they did?

Still unlikely. Racism is something they like to avoid, but still will fail to under certain circumstances. Consider how modern feminism has been marketed almost exclusively to white women of means and how even the mention of that is sticky territory there. Ditto TERFism from the same crowd. It is difficult and unpleasant to countenance, but there are still times and places the media would just prefer to take a more racist position, Ceteris Paribus.

I like the idea of Dave Chappelle being able to make good on this. But I am not sold that he would be able to actually do so.
 
bpatus297
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:20 am

Aesma wrote:
About trans activists asking for trans people to be on the board of companies. How big should the board be if every perceived or actual minority needs to be represented ? Especially in the US where you like to put people in all these boxes (by religion, sexuality, genre, skin color, origin, wealth, size, etc.).


Only certain people and the media regularly do this. A vast majority of America just live their life's and don't put people in boxes normally.
 
737307
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:23 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
About trans activists asking for trans people to be on the board of companies. How big should the board be if every perceived or actual minority needs to be represented ? Especially in the US where you like to put people in all these boxes (by religion, sexuality, genre, skin color, origin, wealth, size, etc.).


Only certain people and the media regularly do this. A vast majority of America just live their life's and don't put people in boxes normally.


Indeed. I sometimes wonder if Twitter, Facebook and Network TV are one big echo chamber for the loudmouth and the deranged.
 
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seb146
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:20 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
About trans activists asking for trans people to be on the board of companies. How big should the board be if every perceived or actual minority needs to be represented ? Especially in the US where you like to put people in all these boxes (by religion, sexuality, genre, skin color, origin, wealth, size, etc.).


Only certain people and the media regularly do this. A vast majority of America just live their life's and don't put people in boxes normally.


Indeed. I sometimes wonder if Twitter, Facebook and Network TV are one big echo chamber for the loudmouth and the deranged.


Those "loudmouth and the deranged" are in general society simply trying to live their lives and not be put in a little tiny box others are comfortable with. LGBTQ people are people and make conservatives uncomfortable. LGBTQ people simply want the same rights as conservatives. We tried to play the game and that got us no where. We have to now be "loudmouth and deranged" because we are tired of being beaten, ignored, shamed, and forced to change to make a small group of people comfortable. Our big mistake was backing off after Stonewall.
 
737307
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:25 pm

seb146 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Only certain people and the media regularly do this. A vast majority of America just live their life's and don't put people in boxes normally.


Indeed. I sometimes wonder if Twitter, Facebook and Network TV are one big echo chamber for the loudmouth and the deranged.


Those "loudmouth and the deranged" are in general society simply trying to live their lives and not be put in a little tiny box others are comfortable with. LGBTQ people are people and make conservatives uncomfortable. LGBTQ people simply want the same rights as conservatives. We tried to play the game and that got us no where. We have to now be "loudmouth and deranged" because we are tired of being beaten, ignored, shamed, and forced to change to make a small group of people comfortable. Our big mistake was backing off after Stonewall.


Yes we had our own fair share of protesting back in the day for equal rights.
However, it seems people conflagrate asking to be treated with respect and have the same rights as others, with being loudmouths for the sake of being loudmouths. You seriously think that ranting on Twitter will make people listen? If yes, then I have a bridge to sell you.

"Want to Win an Argument? Science Says Stop Doing This 1 Thing"

Once you start yelling, your listener will struggle to process what you say rationally."


https://www.inc.com/wanda-thibodeaux/wa ... thing.html
 
bpatus297
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:34 pm

seb146 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Only certain people and the media regularly do this. A vast majority of America just live their life's and don't put people in boxes normally.


Indeed. I sometimes wonder if Twitter, Facebook and Network TV are one big echo chamber for the loudmouth and the deranged.


Those "loudmouth and the deranged" are in general society simply trying to live their lives and not be put in a little tiny box others are comfortable with. LGBTQ people are people and make conservatives uncomfortable. LGBTQ people simply want the same rights as conservatives. We tried to play the game and that got us no where. We have to now be "loudmouth and deranged" because we are tired of being beaten, ignored, shamed, and forced to change to make a small group of people comfortable. Our big mistake was backing off after Stonewall.


Another broad brush, all most everyone I know (conservative, liberal, libertarian, or other) couldn't careless that someone is LGBTQ (or black or brown for that matter). I'm not sure what rights they don't have. Aren't gay marriages or civil unions pretty much legal everywhere? All of my LGBTQ friends that want to be married, are. Many insurance companies list it as self and self plus one (dropped the family name) to the plan. I'm sure LGBTQ people face some challenges, but in reality who doesn't. If they are harassed or discriminated against, that's wrong. No one should be harassed or discriminated against for any reason (Other than being a Steelers or Wolverine fan). Again, I think the vast majority of people don't care one way or another. They just care if you are a good kind person and not a douche. Of course there are assholes out there, but in my experience, they are the small minority

One thing that I think gets lost in translation is teh issue on trans people using restrooms. IMHO most people don't care. If you identify as a female, use the female restroom and don't make a big deal about it and no one cares. The locker room issue in schools is a different and complex issue which requires a lot of discussion. I don't have a good answer, but its probably a compromise between what the left and right want.
Last edited by bpatus297 on Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
737307
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:37 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
One thing that I think gets lost in translation is teh issue on trans people using restrooms. IMHO most people don't care. If you identify as a female, use the female restroom and don't make a big deal about it and no one cares. The locker room issue in schools is a different and complex issue which requires a lot of discussion. I don't have a good answer, but its probably a compromise between what the left and right want.'


Once again, mainstream media including Facebook and Twitter THRIVE by controversy and stirring the pot. Because it leads to more "user engagement" and therefore $$$.
The "bathroom issue" shouldn't be an issue at all. At work, we have private bathrooms: you go in, close the door and do your thing. The door simply says: "Bathroom".
How difficult can it be...
 
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seb146
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Sat Oct 30, 2021 4:37 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:

Indeed. I sometimes wonder if Twitter, Facebook and Network TV are one big echo chamber for the loudmouth and the deranged.


Those "loudmouth and the deranged" are in general society simply trying to live their lives and not be put in a little tiny box others are comfortable with. LGBTQ people are people and make conservatives uncomfortable. LGBTQ people simply want the same rights as conservatives. We tried to play the game and that got us no where. We have to now be "loudmouth and deranged" because we are tired of being beaten, ignored, shamed, and forced to change to make a small group of people comfortable. Our big mistake was backing off after Stonewall.


Another broad brush, all most everyone I know (conservative, liberal, libertarian, or other) couldn't careless that someone is LGBTQ (or black or brown for that matter). I'm not sure what rights they don't have. Aren't gay marriages or civil unions pretty much legal everywhere? All of my LGBTQ friends that want to be married, are. Many insurance companies list it as self and self plus one (dropped the family name) to the plan. I'm sure LGBTQ people face some challenges, but in reality who doesn't. If they are harassed or discriminated against, that's wrong. No one should be harassed or discriminated against for any reason (Other than being a Steelers or Wolverine fan). Again, I think the vast majority of people don't care one way or another. They just care if you are a good kind person and not a douche. Of course there are assholes out there, but in my experience, they are the small minority


Republicans/conservatives/MAGAs have been fighting tooth and nail to keep LGBTQ people from having equality. Which side is offended and screams loudest about LGBTQ equality? Republicans. There are bills in state legislatures around the country to take away equality we finally achieved. Republicans SAY they don't care if people are LGBTQ but, the reality is, they do care. They care so much, they do not want us to have the same rights. They care so much, they will sue to deny us rights and services. They will undo settled law. That's how much Republicans care.

bpatus297 wrote:
One thing that I think gets lost in translation is teh issue on trans people using restrooms. IMHO most people don't care. If you identify as a female, use the female restroom and don't make a big deal about it and no one cares. The locker room issue in schools is a different and complex issue which requires a lot of discussion. I don't have a good answer, but its probably a compromise between what the left and right want.


Maybe it is because I have been fired and harassed and denied mundane things because I am gay, but I keep my eyes on my own paper when it comes to bathrooms. Republicans are so upset over the thought of that person in the stall might be a woman, for some reason. Look at the anti-trans bathroom bills that have been proposed. All by Republicans. I have been to two different gyms in two different states over the past 10 years. How many trans people were in the locker room with me? I don't know. None of my business. It is not all that complex of an issue. If the thought of someone else using the bathroom or locker room upsets you (general), don't use the bathroom or locker room. Problem solved.
 
bpatus297
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:36 pm

seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Those "loudmouth and the deranged" are in general society simply trying to live their lives and not be put in a little tiny box others are comfortable with. LGBTQ people are people and make conservatives uncomfortable. LGBTQ people simply want the same rights as conservatives. We tried to play the game and that got us no where. We have to now be "loudmouth and deranged" because we are tired of being beaten, ignored, shamed, and forced to change to make a small group of people comfortable. Our big mistake was backing off after Stonewall.


Another broad brush, all most everyone I know (conservative, liberal, libertarian, or other) couldn't careless that someone is LGBTQ (or black or brown for that matter). I'm not sure what rights they don't have. Aren't gay marriages or civil unions pretty much legal everywhere? All of my LGBTQ friends that want to be married, are. Many insurance companies list it as self and self plus one (dropped the family name) to the plan. I'm sure LGBTQ people face some challenges, but in reality who doesn't. If they are harassed or discriminated against, that's wrong. No one should be harassed or discriminated against for any reason (Other than being a Steelers or Wolverine fan). Again, I think the vast majority of people don't care one way or another. They just care if you are a good kind person and not a douche. Of course there are assholes out there, but in my experience, they are the small minority


Republicans/conservatives/MAGAs have been fighting tooth and nail to keep LGBTQ people from having equality. Which side is offended and screams loudest about LGBTQ equality? Republicans. There are bills in state legislatures around the country to take away equality we finally achieved. Republicans SAY they don't care if people are LGBTQ but, the reality is, they do care. They care so much, they do not want us to have the same rights. They care so much, they will sue to deny us rights and services. They will undo settled law. That's how much Republicans care.

bpatus297 wrote:
One thing that I think gets lost in translation is teh issue on trans people using restrooms. IMHO most people don't care. If you identify as a female, use the female restroom and don't make a big deal about it and no one cares. The locker room issue in schools is a different and complex issue which requires a lot of discussion. I don't have a good answer, but its probably a compromise between what the left and right want.


Maybe it is because I have been fired and harassed and denied mundane things because I am gay, but I keep my eyes on my own paper when it comes to bathrooms. Republicans are so upset over the thought of that person in the stall might be a woman, for some reason. Look at the anti-trans bathroom bills that have been proposed. All by Republicans. I have been to two different gyms in two different states over the past 10 years. How many trans people were in the locker room with me? I don't know. None of my business. It is not all that complex of an issue. If the thought of someone else using the bathroom or locker room upsets you (general), don't use the bathroom or locker room. Problem solved.


Do you have any links to the bills that are trying to take rights away? Most people are for equal rights, not special rights. As for the bathrooms, do you even read what I type? I guess not, your hatred of any opinion different from yours skews your view. You reiterated exactly what I said about the bathrooms, and yes, high school locker rooms are a different animal. I'm sorry you dont think so, but a high school locker room full of teenagers is not the same as your gym locker room. Transgender people don't upset me one bit at all.
 
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:37 pm

seb146 wrote:
LGBTQ people simply want the same rights as conservatives. We tried to play the game and that got us no where. We have to now be "loudmouth and deranged" because we are tired of being beaten, ignored, shamed, and forced to change to make a small group of people comfortable. Our big mistake was backing off after Stonewall.

You really think that life hasn't improved for LGBTQs? If you haven't, I don't see how being "loudmouth and deranged" is going to make it any better.
 
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seb146
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:26 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
seb146 wrote:
LGBTQ people simply want the same rights as conservatives. We tried to play the game and that got us no where. We have to now be "loudmouth and deranged" because we are tired of being beaten, ignored, shamed, and forced to change to make a small group of people comfortable. Our big mistake was backing off after Stonewall.

You really think that life hasn't improved for LGBTQs? If you haven't, I don't see how being "loudmouth and deranged" is going to make it any better.


In some ways, life is much better for us. But not always.

Which is worse: being loudmouth and deranged out of ignorance or being loudmouth and deranged because we're mad as hell and not going to take it anymore?
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:16 pm

seb146 wrote:
Which is worse: being loudmouth and deranged out of ignorance or being loudmouth and deranged because we're mad as hell and not going to take it anymore?

Neither. They're both equally bad. You'll get far more out of people by trying to talking to them or trying to persuade them. Has anyone ever been persuaded by shouting?
 
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seb146
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:02 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Which is worse: being loudmouth and deranged out of ignorance or being loudmouth and deranged because we're mad as hell and not going to take it anymore?

Neither. They're both equally bad. You'll get far more out of people by trying to talking to them or trying to persuade them. Has anyone ever been persuaded by shouting?


1/6

And, honestly, we have tried talking and reasoning and using science and logic. And, still, they want to take away our equality and still threaten, yell, and beat us. That appears to be the only thing they understand. So, why not speak their language when all else fails?
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:55 pm

seb146 wrote:
And, honestly, we have tried talking and reasoning and using science and logic. And, still, they want to take away our equality and still threaten, yell, and beat us. That appears to be the only thing they understand. So, why not speak their language when all else fails?

That just ups the ante. And gives us a bad name.
 
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seb146
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:24 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
seb146 wrote:
And, honestly, we have tried talking and reasoning and using science and logic. And, still, they want to take away our equality and still threaten, yell, and beat us. That appears to be the only thing they understand. So, why not speak their language when all else fails?

That just ups the ante. And gives us a bad name.


Let's try it. Being nice and playing along has not worked.

Granted, some have made up their minds and will never ever change. It's the ones who go along with them because of whatever reason that need to be convinced. They seem to go along with the myths and half truths. Like the myth that trans people are really men looking to rape or that gays are just confused or schools indoctrinate kids to be gay and trans. We all know these myths are simply not true. But, they are still shouted out as fact from right wing media. No matter how much we gather kumbayah style, this is what we are up against. I am tired of sitting at the back of the bus to prove a point.
 
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:22 pm

seb146 wrote:
Like the myth that trans people are really men looking to rape or that gays are just confused or schools indoctrinate kids to be gay and trans. We all know these myths are simply not true. But, they are still shouted out as fact from right wing media. No matter how much we gather kumbayah style, this is what we are up against. I am tired of sitting at the back of the bus to prove a point.

You live in a very different world to mine. But by inflaming the debate you're only going to make those people worse -- much worse.
 
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seb146
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:26 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Like the myth that trans people are really men looking to rape or that gays are just confused or schools indoctrinate kids to be gay and trans. We all know these myths are simply not true. But, they are still shouted out as fact from right wing media. No matter how much we gather kumbayah style, this is what we are up against. I am tired of sitting at the back of the bus to prove a point.

You live in a very different world to mine. But by inflaming the debate you're only going to make those people worse -- much worse.


Can't get much worse than the violence and denial of rights we have now. Why should we walk on eggshells and accept being denied rights just to make a small group of very loud, very angry people comfortable? I lived that life. It was hell. I refuse to do it again. If they don't like it, tough. That is on them. Don't make me pay because you (the right in general) are uncomfortable.
 
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:15 pm

seb146 wrote:
Can't get much worse than the violence and denial of rights we have now. Why should we walk on eggshells and accept being denied rights just to make a small group of very loud, very angry people comfortable? I lived that life. It was hell. I refuse to do it again. If they don't like it, tough. That is on them. Don't make me pay because you (the right in general) are uncomfortable.

I don't know what planet you're living on. What violence and denial of rights are you talking about??? We have more rights now than we've ever had (in the West, at least). Who's walking on eggshells nowadays? I don't know what sort of life you've lived to call it hell. Having lived throuhg the '60s, '70s and '80s I can honestly say the nearest thing to hell I've experienced was self-inflicted -- in the early- to mid-'80s when HIV has us all terrified and remorseful after every sexual encounter. Other than that -- even when homosexuality was illegal -- I've had a ball ( :D ). I can remember being the recipient of derogatory comments only three times, and dealt with them by (a) ignoring them, or (b) laughing at them. I found the latter to be much more effective as it shut the other person up immediately. What exactly do you hope to achieve by shouting at someone?
 
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seb146
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:02 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Can't get much worse than the violence and denial of rights we have now. Why should we walk on eggshells and accept being denied rights just to make a small group of very loud, very angry people comfortable? I lived that life. It was hell. I refuse to do it again. If they don't like it, tough. That is on them. Don't make me pay because you (the right in general) are uncomfortable.

I don't know what planet you're living on. What violence and denial of rights are you talking about??? We have more rights now than we've ever had (in the West, at least). Who's walking on eggshells nowadays? I don't know what sort of life you've lived to call it hell. Having lived throuhg the '60s, '70s and '80s I can honestly say the nearest thing to hell I've experienced was self-inflicted -- in the early- to mid-'80s when HIV has us all terrified and remorseful after every sexual encounter. Other than that -- even when homosexuality was illegal -- I've had a ball ( :D ). I can remember being the recipient of derogatory comments only three times, and dealt with them by (a) ignoring them, or (b) laughing at them. I found the latter to be much more effective as it shut the other person up immediately. What exactly do you hope to achieve by shouting at someone?


Again, we have ignored them, laughed at them, and calmly and rationally spoken to them. They shout at us, call us names, bully us, pass laws based on "but my faith!", pass laws based on whataboutisms, so, since they don't understand our way of doing things, the last resort seems to be stooping to their level. I know all they are going to do is say "we told you they are unhinged lunatics!" after all the crazy they have been bombarding us with. What else are we supposed to do? They don't get it, anyway. We are still evil to them. Nothing seems to work. They simply hate for hate's sake. Unfortunately, many of them are in positions of power, like talking heads in the media and law makers.

I am glad you grew up with a support system. Many of us did not and still do not. Being calm and rational and fact based is not working. We need to try something else.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:08 pm

seb146 wrote:
Again, we have ignored them, laughed at them, and calmly and rationally spoken to them. They shout at us, call us names, bully us, pass laws based on "but my faith!", pass laws based on whataboutisms, so, since they don't understand our way of doing things, the last resort seems to be stooping to their level. I know all they are going to do is say "we told you they are unhinged lunatics!" after all the crazy they have been bombarding us with. What else are we supposed to do? They don't get it, anyway. We are still evil to them. Nothing seems to work. They simply hate for hate's sake. Unfortunately, many of them are in positions of power, like talking heads in the media and law makers.

I am glad you grew up with a support system. Many of us did not and still do not. Being calm and rational and fact based is not working. We need to try something else.

You're angry at something you can do nothing about. So just ignore them. Shouting at them isn't going to make them go away. Wasn't it Michelle Obama who said something along the lines of "When they go low, we go higher". You're letting people who are of no consequence to you upset you too much.

For what it's worth,I didn't grow up with ANY support system. Homosexuality was well below the radar in '60s and '70s Ireland, so I kind-of had to figure it all out for myself.
 
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:37 am

Braybuddy wrote:
You're angry at something you can do nothing about. So just ignore them. Shouting at them isn't going to make them go away.


Who said anything about shouting? Marginalization is the key. Vaccination is a good example of this. Do not want one? Fine, but you do not get a spot in modern society and life will become increasingly difficult until compliance is achieved.

We have the tools to do this, and a keen observer might note that it is working. Which means it can be applied elsewhere.



Braybuddy wrote:
Wasn't it Michelle Obama who said something along the lines of "When they go low, we go higher". You're letting people who are of no consequence to you upset you too much.


Michelle Obama is overwhelmingly respected and admired by a majority of Americans. However, that particular statement, nice as it sounds, is widely regarded as unduly optimistic, even by her supporters. What is —finally— being realized by mainstream America is that there is no high to appeal to with the regressive and reactionary right.

When a man is attacking you with a knife, that is not the time to engage in civilized debate. The intentions of the GOP would easily roll this country back to wage free labor if left unchecked. Likely even worse things for the civil liberties gains made by people of color, LGBTQ, women, irreligious, etc.

You are right to assert that things are much better, but if we want them to stay that way, now is no time to play nice.
 
flyguy89
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:46 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
We have the tools to do this, and a keen observer might note that it is working. Which means it can be applied elsewhere.

Yes it worked so well that we got Trump :roll: There comes a tipping point where you stop making friends and start galvanizing people in against you. Change has and will only ever be effected by persuading, building, and sustaining coalitions. Yes, people needed to stand up and defend themselves against direct attacks…but a great part of the incredible success us in the LGBT community have achieved is attributable to demonstrating our humanity in the zeitgeist, culture, and media…it’s why I can hold hands and kiss my boyfriend in the middle of town with absolutely no reaction or fear of such from those around me.

Spouting off like Seb does…like a veteran with PTSD who doesn’t realize the war is over, makes us look ridiculous. It’s delusional to act like the locus of today’s culture (in the West at least) hasn’t shifted so far to where we’re at a point when it is now in fact “cool” and mainstream to be seen as some type of gender fluid. Are there problems and issues to address still? Yes. But trying to tear down a widely revered icon like Dave Chappelle for saying “gender is a fact”…a completely normie and mainstream view held by the vast vast majority of people is not just dumb on its face…but tactically stupid. What tangible effect does a walk out or forcing Netflix to apply a “trigger warning” to or pull the show realistically have? You’re not changing anyone’s mind and you’re definitely not winning anyone over to your side by generating sympathy across the political spectrum for people and ideas that you think are wrong.



DarkSnowyNight wrote:
You are right to assert that things are much better, but if we want them to stay that way, now is no time to play nice.

Could not disagree more obviously. We’re not going to win by growing the constituencies we’re opposed to…or driving those in the middle toward apathy.
 
kaitak
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:48 am

flyguy89 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:

You are right to assert that things are much better, but if we want them to stay that way, now is no time to play nice.

Could not disagree more obviously. We’re not going to win by growing the constituencies we’re opposed to…or driving those in the middle toward apathy.


There's a happy mean and it's hard to fight. I think that it's a constantly moving subject - some countries move forward (Switzerland recently approved same sex marriage by referendum, only the second to do it, after ourselves in Ireland), whereas many others - Hungary, Poland and the UK - are moving backwards. There is a pendulum effect as well, and I think that the Trans lobby - particularly the most vociferous of them - risk that moving against them.

That said, there are groups that view Trans people as unnecessary and - to all intents and purposes - untermenschen; they will (and indeed already) do all that they possibly can to make the lives of Trans people as painful, as bedevilled by discrimination at every possible turn - that they can. Again, as another poster said above, it's all US Republicans and it is often done under the cover of religion. The RC church has always been anti-trans or anti-gay and while they've made tepid apologies to gay people, they're totally hostile to trans people. It's interesting to note that they would probably get away with misgendering people (still referring to a trans woman as "he"/"him", or vice versa) in the US, but they'd be shot down in a second if they did it in Europe. So, in that context, I can understand trans people being very sensitive to jokes and TERFs - anything that demeans or undermines them; you wouldn't tell jokes like that about gays, or lesbians, so why should it be acceptable to question the rights of Trans people. I think they go to far when they try to de-platform people, but I can understand it.

As a famous Irishman (John Philpott Curran) once said, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance". I think that is very true with regard to LGBT rights, especially in those countries - like the US - where there is a strong conservative population who - as has been mentioned above - would happily strip LGBT people of all rights. The way to answer that is not by shouting - and obvious not by lying down; the basis of the argument and reasoning underlying that drive needs to be understood. I don't see - and I don't think anyone should - denying anyone their rights on religious grounds as particularly Christian. The enemy is not Christianity (or organised religion), but that particular constituency which weaponises it and uses it at a stick to beat those it dislikes or deems unnecessary. That's not religion; that's just reaching wrapping yourself in the flag of someone who happens to share your dislike of a certain group of people and the sooner religions are encouraged to see this and react against it, the better. Even if they have antipathy towards LGBT people, they need to be made realise that it does them no good to be associated with hatred and what might follow from that (shootings, killings, beatings). Religion, like every philosophy worth having, needs to be challenging - the sword behind rather than the shield in front - and simply being a crux to support a hatred of someone else is precisely what it should NOT be. But this needs to come from the religions themselves.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:07 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Chappelle could turn the tables on mainstream media and simply call anyone who dares to "cancel" him a RACIST. Then, watch how quickly the mainstream media will shoot into a cramp and roll over each other apologizing and begging to be allowed to feature Chappelle again.


Chappelle is above the people who do that, in terms of his intellect, his integrity and his dignity. He could easily do what you are describing. But he is better than that.
 
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seb146
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:19 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
We have the tools to do this, and a keen observer might note that it is working. Which means it can be applied elsewhere.

Yes it worked so well that we got Trump :roll: There comes a tipping point where you stop making friends and start galvanizing people in against you. Change has and will only ever be effected by persuading, building, and sustaining coalitions. Yes, people needed to stand up and defend themselves against direct attacks…but a great part of the incredible success us in the LGBT community have achieved is attributable to demonstrating our humanity in the zeitgeist, culture, and media…it’s why I can hold hands and kiss my boyfriend in the middle of town with absolutely no reaction or fear of such from those around me.

Spouting off like Seb does…like a veteran with PTSD who doesn’t realize the war is over, makes us look ridiculous. It’s delusional to act like the locus of today’s culture (in the West at least) hasn’t shifted so far to where we’re at a point when it is now in fact “cool” and mainstream to be seen as some type of gender fluid. Are there problems and issues to address still? Yes. But trying to tear down a widely revered icon like Dave Chappelle for saying “gender is a fact”…a completely normie and mainstream view held by the vast vast majority of people is not just dumb on its face…but tactically stupid. What tangible effect does a walk out or forcing Netflix to apply a “trigger warning” to or pull the show realistically have? You’re not changing anyone’s mind and you’re definitely not winning anyone over to your side by generating sympathy across the political spectrum for people and ideas that you think are wrong.



DarkSnowyNight wrote:
You are right to assert that things are much better, but if we want them to stay that way, now is no time to play nice.

Could not disagree more obviously. We’re not going to win by growing the constituencies we’re opposed to…or driving those in the middle toward apathy.


The fight for equality kinda fizzled out after we got what we wanted. The price for that is Republicans rolling back those gains we have made. We can not simply sit back and say "welp, we did it!" and move on. We have to keep fighting. And if that means continuing to "spout off", we should. I am not about to go back to what life was like before we had equality.
 
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seb146
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:20 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Chappelle could turn the tables on mainstream media and simply call anyone who dares to "cancel" him a RACIST. Then, watch how quickly the mainstream media will shoot into a cramp and roll over each other apologizing and begging to be allowed to feature Chappelle again.


Chappelle is above the people who do that, in terms of his intellect, his integrity and his dignity. He could easily do what you are describing. But he is better than that.


Not only that, but he knows he has support and fans in every ethnicity. He would be called out in a heartbeat if he did that.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:25 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Who said anything about shouting?

This has been Seb's argument:
seb146 wrote:
We have to now be "loudmouth and deranged" because we are tired of being beaten, ignored, shamed, and forced to change to make a small group of people comfortable. Our big mistake was backing off after Stonewall.

seb146 wrote:
They shout at us, call us names, bully us, pass laws based on "but my faith!", pass laws based on whataboutisms, so, since they don't understand our way of doing things, the last resort seems to be stooping to their level.

If you want a textbook example of how to bring people on board and change society I would point to David Norris, a senator in the Irish parliament and gay rights campaigner since the 1970s. He ploughed a lonely furrow in his campaign to legalise homosexuality in the deeply conservative, Catholic country. Homosexuality was illegal at the time, as was divorce, contraception and abortion. He took his case to the European Court of Human Rights, and won it in 1988. For years he was the only person to publicly campagn on the national airwaves. As a university lecturer, he had gravitas and profile behind him, but the not-so-secret weapon in his armoury was humour. This, I beleive, won more people over to his cause than anything else. Last week, as the longest serving member of the Senate, he was presented with a portrait which is to go on display in the national parliament. He was thrilled, and during the presentation -- never short of a quip -- commented that he was now "well-hung". He is enormously popular with the general public, and at this stage could be considered a national treasure.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... -1.4725166

For me we've got to where we always wanted to be (in the West), but I think the LGBTQI+ movement has lost its way and is alienating more people by hitching itself to fringe elements of the community, which is why I don't really identify with it anymore. By shouting and screaming at people we only shoot ourselves in the foot.
 
kaitak
Posts: 10128
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:22 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Who said anything about shouting?

This has been Seb's argument:
seb146 wrote:
We have to now be "loudmouth and deranged" because we are tired of being beaten, ignored, shamed, and forced to change to make a small group of people comfortable. Our big mistake was backing off after Stonewall.

seb146 wrote:
They shout at us, call us names, bully us, pass laws based on "but my faith!", pass laws based on whataboutisms, so, since they don't understand our way of doing things, the last resort seems to be stooping to their level.

If you want a textbook example of how to bring people on board and change society I would point to David Norris, a senator in the Irish parliament and gay rights campaigner since the 1970s. He ploughed a lonely furrow in his campaign to legalise homosexuality in the deeply conservative, Catholic country. Homosexuality was illegal at the time, as was divorce, contraception and abortion. He took his case to the European Court of Human Rights, and won it in 1988. For years he was the only person to publicly campagn on the national airwaves. As a university lecturer, he had gravitas and profile behind him, but the not-so-secret weapon in his armoury was humour. This, I beleive, won more people over to his cause than anything else. Last week, as the longest serving member of the Senate, he was presented with a portrait which is to go on display in the national parliament. He was thrilled, and during the presentation -- never short of a quip -- commented that he was now "well-hung". He is enormously popular with the general public, and at this stage could be considered a national treasure.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... -1.4725166

For me we've got to where we always wanted to be (in the West), but I think the LGBTQI+ movement has lost its way and is alienating more people by hitching itself to fringe elements of the community, which is why I don't really identify with it anymore. By shouting and screaming at people we only shoot ourselves in the foot.


Yes, I would certainly second that. He has been a tireless campaigner on the issue and a we forget now (particularly the younger generation) how difficult and BRAVE that was in the Ireland of the 1970s, where the Church was in a far more powerful position and in a country where divorce, let alone abortion were illegal - and referenda to legalise them were hard fought - gay rights were well down the list of priorities and any suggestion of legalising them was jumped on by the Church and right wing Catholic intellectuals and groups such as Opus Dei. The more liberal Ireland that we see today certainly owes a lot to Senator Norris.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: The Netflix - Sarandos/Chappelle Issue

Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:36 am

flyguy89 wrote:
Yes it worked so well that we got Trump :roll: There comes a tipping point where you stop making friends and start galvanizing people in against you.


I do not mind oversimplifications, but this one sacrifices accuracy to do so. 45 was not a result of marginalization; though they soon will, his voters have never experienced that. No, he was a result of intensive manipulation.

flyguy89 wrote:
a great part of the incredible success us in the LGBT community have achieved is attributable to demonstrating our humanity in the zeitgeist, culture, and media…it’s why I can hold hands and kiss my boyfriend in the middle of town with absolutely no reaction or fear of such from those around me.


And none of that would have happened had conservatives or their ideology had their way. Witness their continued outright —and most damningly, unprovoked— hostility toward trans and gender fluid individuals. Keep in mind they spent untold tons of energy trying to quell any of the things you speak of all through the 80ties and 90ties. They do not hate cancel culture because they value freedom. They hate it solely because the show is on the other foot —and they know that will not change.

This would not be possible without the inexorable and permanent shift toward a more socially liberal America.



flyguy89 wrote:
It’s delusional to act like the locus of today’s culture (in the West at least) hasn’t shifted so far to where we’re at a point when it is now in fact “cool” and mainstream to be seen as some type of gender fluid.


If it were simply a matter of social conservatives doing nothing to help this, there would be no reason to have issue. In fact, too many people addressing an issue would like as not hinder progress via social congestion.

But that is not the case. Not only have conservatives never helped advance any theater of Civil Rights, they have always stood against same. And usually vociferously so.
Respond to that if you like, but first consider the animosity and deliberate misinformation they continue to loft against trans and gender fluid people.


flyguy89 wrote:
Are there problems and issues to address still? Yes. But trying to tear down a widely revered icon like Dave Chappelle for saying “gender is a fact”…a completely normie and mainstream view held by the vast vast majority of people is not just dumb on its face…but tactically stupid. What tangible effect does a walk out or forcing Netflix to apply a “trigger warning” to or pull the show realistically have?



I do not agree with cancelling Dave Chappelle, and have said so previously. Part of being a liberal is that it usually comes with being more circumspect about complex issues than what you would expect from the other side of the aisle. As that pertains here, I feel that some of the cancel concern originates from... Chappelle himself. He literally opens the show with as much, and I feel that this is good marketing.
Having watched the special, I felt that the controversial aspects were underwhelming and that is a lot of room to sense opportunism in the actual objections. I did feel it was unfunny at times and would have been better as a TED talk, but there was not something there that rises to level of hype WRT the concerns raised.

I will say this though... It worked. I likely would not have watched for months if not for all this noise. I know I am not alone here, and I do feel that Netflix got their money's worth allowing the story to stay relevant. Good work.


flyguy89 wrote:
We’re not going to win by growing the constituencies we’re opposed to…or driving those in the middle toward apathy.

You are not going to win them at all. And you do not win anything anywhere by appeasing those demographics, many of whom only vote in limited circumstances or will die soon anyway.

At this point in the modern history of the Democratic Party, there is a growing shift away from trying to appease the center right. If those people were so easily conned in '16, shoring up the very few of their votes needed will be relatively cheap. What is important is to maintain the understanding with the more key constituencies that we have not disregarded their needs.

That last we do need to do a better job with. But that does not happen trying to win a few garbage votes in FL or OH.

So in a larger sense, it is more important to prioritize the fight for Civil Rights here than worry about what someone who only pretends to be a "moderate" might think.



kaitak wrote:
There's a happy mean and it's hard to fight. I think that it's a constantly moving subject - some countries move forward (Switzerland recently approved same sex marriage by referendum, only the second to do it, after ourselves in Ireland), whereas many others - Hungary, Poland and the UK - are moving backwards. There is a pendulum effect as well, and I think that the Trans lobby - particularly the most vociferous of them - risk that moving against them.


Indeed, Civil Rights are not a static thing. I liken it to pushing a huge stone up a hill. Just because it is further than it was does not mean we are to the summit. And it does not mean it cannot very easily roll back with just the slightest push.

Though I can find room for the same concerns you have here for the Trans Lobby, I also get why they are they way they are. There are some Gays that will tell you things are just fine, but I do not think that is who the Trans Lobby are looking to —at least in the US. I think they are looking more closely at the Blacks. Much progress has been made since 1866, but in spite of those gains, there have been setbacks. And those are unmistakably concentrated in the more conservative areas within the US.


kaitak wrote:
As a famous Irishman (John Philpott Curran) once said, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance". I think that is very true with regard to LGBT rights, especially in those countries - like the US - where there is a strong conservative population who - as has been mentioned above - would happily strip LGBT people of all rights. The way to answer that is not by shouting - and obvious not by lying down; the basis of the argument and reasoning underlying that drive needs to be understood. I don't see - and I don't think anyone should - denying anyone their rights on religious grounds as particularly Christian. The enemy is not Christianity (or organised religion), but that particular constituency which weaponises it and uses it at a stick to beat those it dislikes or deems unnecessary. That's not religion; that's just reaching wrapping yourself in the flag of someone who happens to share your dislike of a certain group of people and the sooner religions are encouraged to see this and react against it, the better. Even if they have antipathy towards LGBT people, they need to be made realise that it does them no good to be associated with hatred and what might follow from that (shootings, killings, beatings). Religion, like every philosophy worth having, needs to be challenging - the sword behind rather than the shield in front - and simply being a crux to support a hatred of someone else is precisely what it should NOT be. But this needs to come from the religions themselves.


I agree that the answer is not shouting. But given the naked belligerence these people have for Civil Rights not belonging specifically to them, I think we are at a point where it is time to stop reaching out. We are slowly figuring out that we can do without that element and doing what we can to effect that. Corporate America is actually doing a good of this, insomuch as policing HR and inclusion standards to a degree the gov't unfortunately cannot. That is only part of any solution but I will not pretend to have the rest of the answers either. I just know that it will be slow going and sometimes it is all we can do to keep that stone where it is.

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