News just in, a British Conservative MP, David Amess has died after being stabbed at this office. A man has been arrested.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-58930593
In 2016 Labour lost MP Jo Cox - Shot and Stabbed by a white supremacist The killer believed she was (because she was a Liberal and supporter of the EU) "one of 'the collaborators' a traitor to white people".
With the exception of attempts on MP's lives back in the days of the IRA, this kind of thing was the reserve of cinema and banana republics. We will have to wait and see what the reasons are for this, however they are both from different sides of the political line but is this just reflecting what we are seeing across the western world? It's an effective assault on democracy but it's not limited to coming from just one group of persons. Opinions becoming so entrenched, extremism instead of moderation becoming the norm?
After Jo Cox's Murder the amount of death threats, mainly to female MP's in parliament went through the roof. Many begged the language used by MPs in the house of commons to be moderated, but many, including the PM were not prepared to accept any responsibility despite exact words and phrases on exact topics he had spoken about being used by these people.
What is the way out of all of this?
Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Re: British MP Killed
Rare in the UK but here in the USA we have seen too murders and severe injuries to our Federal, State and local elected officials. Too often they are political extremists, have mental health issues, a grudge against the government or the politician and have access to a gun or other weapon. Like here, it will likely mean politicians distancing themselves even more from their voters, only meet in secured locations where checks for weapons can be done, less outside 'meet and greets'.
Re: British MP Killed
Terrible shock, while I did not agree with many of his political positions to add to the summary below, I recall a few years ago on the BBC Newsnight program in his capacity on the Commons Fire Safety Committee, he displayed a passionate anger at the disgraceful series of events, in disregard of fire safety (by a Council run by his party), that led to the Grenfell fire.
His positions on abortion, driven by his strong Catholic faith not party politics, as well as the death penalty, settled by acts of Parliament in 1967 and 1965 respectively, in ‘free votes’ meaning MPs can vote by their own beliefs not political doctrine, meant that Ames’s never sought Ministerial Office, since these beliefs could clash with collective Cabinet responsibility, nonetheless he affected changes in causes he felt strongly about via those sorts of committees and campaigns.
If the identity of the killer going around on social media is true then it’s even more senseless given some of his work involved the rights of immigrants and refugees. Maybe the killer was just insane.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58928140
It IS thankfully very rare, mostly by a defunct terrorist group, one error, Neave was Shadow N.I. Secretary as this happened during the 1979 election and he had not yet taken office;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjRph2KYeVw
His positions on abortion, driven by his strong Catholic faith not party politics, as well as the death penalty, settled by acts of Parliament in 1967 and 1965 respectively, in ‘free votes’ meaning MPs can vote by their own beliefs not political doctrine, meant that Ames’s never sought Ministerial Office, since these beliefs could clash with collective Cabinet responsibility, nonetheless he affected changes in causes he felt strongly about via those sorts of committees and campaigns.
If the identity of the killer going around on social media is true then it’s even more senseless given some of his work involved the rights of immigrants and refugees. Maybe the killer was just insane.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58928140
It IS thankfully very rare, mostly by a defunct terrorist group, one error, Neave was Shadow N.I. Secretary as this happened during the 1979 election and he had not yet taken office;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjRph2KYeVw
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- noviorbis77
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Re: British MP Killed
Truly horrible news.
A fine Member of Parliament with a passion for animal welfare.
RIP
A fine Member of Parliament with a passion for animal welfare.
RIP
Re: British MP Killed
Horrific news. Our elected officials should be safe and not being afraid of being killed.
Yes, a passion for animal welfare, he supported the ban on fox hunting. But very antiquated political views.
link
noviorbis77 wrote:A fine Member of Parliament with a passion for animal welfare.
Yes, a passion for animal welfare, he supported the ban on fox hunting. But very antiquated political views.
His political views were robustly conservative and included support for the return of capital punishment and *censored*. He was a Catholic and opposed abortion. He was one of few Conservatives to support the ban on fox hunting
link
Re: British MP Killed
LHAM wrote:Isolated incident no.546.528
Your point? Got one you want to share?
Already demonstrated how thankfully rare this is, one PM murdered in 1812, most MPs post war by a terror group.
The last MP was killed by a neo Nazi, if you are alluding to an ethnic minority.
On another thread I linked nations by homicides per 100,000, the UK is way down the list, below some other Western democracies, well below the US.
British MPs are duty bound to be available for their constituencies, regardless of why constituents voted for them or not.
Back Bench MPs free from Ministerial work obviously more so, nonetheless Amess effected changes in his career.
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- GalaxyFlyer
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Re: British MP Killed
Dutchy wrote:Horrific news. Our elected officials should be safe and not being afraid of being killed.noviorbis77 wrote:A fine Member of Parliament with a passion for animal welfare.
Yes, a passion for animal welfare, he supported the ban on fox hunting. But very antiquated political views.His political views were robustly conservative and included support for the return of capital punishment and *censored*. He was a Catholic and opposed abortion. He was one of few Conservatives to support the ban on fox hunting
link
Reading his entry, there’s a lot to like about the man—tragic loss for tradition.
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- chimborazo
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Re: British MP Killed
GDB wrote:LHAM wrote:Isolated incident no.546.528
Your point? Got one you want to share?
Already demonstrated how thankfully rare this is, one PM murdered in 1812, most MPs post war by a terror group.
The last MP was killed by a neo Nazi, if you are alluding to an ethnic minority.
On another thread I linked nations by homicides per 100,000, the UK is way down the list, below some other Western democracies, well below the US.
British MPs are duty bound to be available for their constituencies, regardless of why constituents voted for them or not.
Back Bench MPs free from Ministerial work obviously more so, nonetheless Amess effected changes in his career.
Go have a look on the BBC front page now… I think that’s the point they are alluding to.
The point that the BBC and a couple of you on here were absolutely falling over yourselves to do anything but say it: Islamic terrorism. The scourge of modern life in many countries be they secular or Islamic countries themselves (where you’re an enemy if you’re not in the same denomination of effectively the same cult).
There will now follow a period of drip feed news along the lines of “nice young lad… difficult time… terrorist watchlist…. No threat… radicalised… religion of peace… blah blah blah”. The same usual rubbish. While never acknowledging that it is Islam that is the problem.
Re: British MP Killed
chimborazo wrote:Go have a look on the BBC front page now… I think that’s the point they are alluding to.
The point that the BBC and a couple of you on here were absolutely falling over yourselves to do anything but say it: Islamic terrorism. The scourge of modern life in many countries be they secular or Islamic countries themselves (where you’re an enemy if you’re not in the same denomination of effectively the same cult).
There will now follow a period of drip feed news along the lines of “nice young lad… difficult time… terrorist watchlist…. No threat… radicalised… religion of peace… blah blah blah”. The same usual rubbish. While never acknowledging that it is Islam that is the problem.
It's true, we're absolutely falling over ourselves to not share your prejudices.
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- chimborazo
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Re: British MP Killed
Newark727 wrote:chimborazo wrote:Go have a look on the BBC front page now… I think that’s the point they are alluding to.
The point that the BBC and a couple of you on here were absolutely falling over yourselves to do anything but say it: Islamic terrorism. The scourge of modern life in many countries be they secular or Islamic countries themselves (where you’re an enemy if you’re not in the same denomination of effectively the same cult).
There will now follow a period of drip feed news along the lines of “nice young lad… difficult time… terrorist watchlist…. No threat… radicalised… religion of peace… blah blah blah”. The same usual rubbish. While never acknowledging that it is Islam that is the problem.
It's true, we're absolutely falling over ourselves to not share your prejudices.
What prejudices? This is reality. You are part of the problem that lets this stuff continue to happen by calling someone prejudiced when they identify what the problem is.
You guys really, REALLY wanted it to be a white “mentally ill” person that performed this horrible act, didn’t you? Then you could sleep easy that there isn’t a problem with Islamic terrorism.
As it turns out, it appears to be an Islamic terrorist act by a non-white immigrant/second generation immigrant to the UK. We can be sure of that in fact because no way would the police even dare mention it if they weren’t 100% sure that were the case.
I actually think it shouldn’t be called terrorism, because it is mental illness. Mental illness supported by religion.
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- Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: British MP Killed
chimborazo wrote:GDB wrote:LHAM wrote:Isolated incident no.546.528
Your point? Got one you want to share?
Already demonstrated how thankfully rare this is, one PM murdered in 1812, most MPs post war by a terror group.
The last MP was killed by a neo Nazi, if you are alluding to an ethnic minority.
On another thread I linked nations by homicides per 100,000, the UK is way down the list, below some other Western democracies, well below the US.
British MPs are duty bound to be available for their constituencies, regardless of why constituents voted for them or not.
Back Bench MPs free from Ministerial work obviously more so, nonetheless Amess effected changes in his career.
Go have a look on the BBC front page now… I think that’s the point they are alluding to.
The point that the BBC and a couple of you on here were absolutely falling over yourselves to do anything but say it: Islamic terrorism. The scourge of modern life in many countries be they secular or Islamic countries themselves (where you’re an enemy if you’re not in the same denomination of effectively the same cult).
There will now follow a period of drip feed news along the lines of “nice young lad… difficult time… terrorist watchlist…. No threat… radicalised… religion of peace… blah blah blah”. The same usual rubbish. While never acknowledging that it is Islam that is the problem.
Do you have any proof or sources that this murder was based on religious belief or motif rather then personal grudge or anything else?
Re: British MP Killed
chimborazo wrote:
What prejudices? This is reality. You are part of the problem that lets this stuff continue to happen by calling someone prejudiced when they identify what the problem is.
You guys really, REALLY wanted it to be a white “mentally ill” person that performed this horrible act, didn’t you? Then you could sleep easy that there isn’t a problem with Islamic terrorism.
As it turns out, it appears to be an Islamic terrorist act by a non-white immigrant/second generation immigrant to the UK. We can be sure of that in fact because no way would the police even dare mention it if they weren’t 100% sure that were the case.
I actually think it shouldn’t be called terrorism, because it is mental illness. Mental illness supported by religion.
Epistemic closure is what they call it, when you've already arrived at a conclusion and rearrange all subsequent experience to fit it. You're so sure you're right that you've put words in the mouth of myself, the BBC, and others that fit your conclusion, rather than actually listening to anything they say. And you've already decided that the explanation for terrorism is Islam. Sure, this guy could be some species of Islamist, but in my book Procrustes doesn't get any credit for finding the one guy who fits in his bed without any stretching or sawing. Ultimately, it's a little arrogant, and turns a blind eye to all the other causes of political violence in the world (like the last time an MP was murdered less than six years ago.)
Re: British MP Killed
chimborazo wrote:GDB wrote:LHAM wrote:Isolated incident no.546.528
Your point? Got one you want to share?
Already demonstrated how thankfully rare this is, one PM murdered in 1812, most MPs post war by a terror group.
The last MP was killed by a neo Nazi, if you are alluding to an ethnic minority.
On another thread I linked nations by homicides per 100,000, the UK is way down the list, below some other Western democracies, well below the US.
British MPs are duty bound to be available for their constituencies, regardless of why constituents voted for them or not.
Back Bench MPs free from Ministerial work obviously more so, nonetheless Amess effected changes in his career.
Go have a look on the BBC front page now… I think that’s the point they are alluding to.
The point that the BBC and a couple of you on here were absolutely falling over yourselves to do anything but say it: Islamic terrorism. The scourge of modern life in many countries be they secular or Islamic countries themselves (where you’re an enemy if you’re not in the same denomination of effectively the same cult).
There will now follow a period of drip feed news along the lines of “nice young lad… difficult time… terrorist watchlist…. No threat… radicalised… religion of peace… blah blah blah”. The same usual rubbish. While never acknowledging that it is Islam that is the problem.
When I wrote that it was before the Police officially confirmed they were investigating with terrorism in mind, they also are not looking for anyone else, the killer had a knife, not a firearm or bomb drawn from a terror group’s arsenal. In other words seems again like a ‘lone wolf’, by nature almost impossible to predict, no group to penetrate (one of the factors in the IRA declaring a cease fire in 1994 was, however loath they have been to admit it, was penetration by the security services), a Lone Wolf can still be mentally ill, neither being prepared to kill themselves, (no explosives they can acquire or produce, the killer of Jo Cox, a far right racist, as was shown in his trial had a crude non standard/home made converted replica firearm but most of her fatal injuries were caused by a knife), nor in this case and in the Jo Cox murder, make any real attempt to escape. Maybe seeking ‘death by cop?’ No getaway vehicle, in both cases were arrested soon after the attack by presumably the first officers on scene, normal beat officers.
The rest killed by a terror group that was white and Christian by ethnicity and upbringing, hard as that might be for you to accept or maybe even aware of?
All reputable news channels, not just the BBC, are reporting as they should, facts as known at the time, not paranoid nonsense, so enlighten us, this is very similar to the murder of Jo Cox, given his motives and political beliefs undermines your notions. Another Islamist wannabe stabbed and seriously injured Labour MP Steven Timms in 2010, again at his Constituency Surgery. Around the same time a Liberal Democrat MP was also attacked in his Surgery, his assistant being killed. Another self radicalized one in the case of Timms, no one else found involved beyond Islamist propaganda, want that stopped? How? Switch off the internet? We have seen how powerful Social Media companies are resistant, or just play lip service, to not only spreading hate but also anti vaccination nonsense which arguably has resulted in many deaths in the Pandemic.
Most death threats to MPs and their staff have been from a position of far right Islamophobes, the threats that Jo Cox’s killer carried out, the threats usually on social media are very clear in their motivation. The racist bile that they tend to feature being a bit of a giveaway.
MP’s from ethnic minorities get the bulk of these threats, no imagined ‘cover up’ the messages tend to crudely speak for themselves, sometimes bricks through the MP’s local office, a crude firebomb in a few cases, my MP’s office is a modest one storey building shared with other community activities, just off the high street of the major town in his seat. Pretty typical for MP’s.
You are still much more likely to be subject to violence on a night out, or something more domestic.
To repeat, the police have clearly stated they are not looking for anyone else beyond the man arrested for the murder of Amess, what are you trying to suggest, they are party to a cover up with just one media organization? A murder of a politician, regardless of their politics, will be investigated by Counter Terrorism Officers, what used to be done by Special Branch. As stated, most are self radicalized, like the mass killer in otherwise peaceful New Zealand. Just the other day another in Norway with principally a bow and arrow. A decade ago, remember the mass killer with political motivation in the same nation? Brevik was a white, far right lone wolf, again self radicalized. He killed dozens.
Before the emergence of modern organized terrorism at the end of the 60’s, PM Harold Wilson used to introduce his Special Branch Personal Protection Officer, just the one, a burly man with his firearm concealed beneath the usual jacket or raincoat with ‘this is Fred, his job is to shoot whoever shoots me!’
Ironically he was the PM who when confronted with the sectarian violence in Northern Ireland spilling into anarchy, had to deploy troops to the Province, thus changing the threat level to politicians forever. Decades before the Islamists.
Remember the 2017 lone wolf attack near Parliament, the first armed officers who got to him, were the Defence Secretaries PPO’s, who were waiting outside the Commons for him, they ended the killing spree by Glocking some sense into him, terminally.
What the CT officers will be doing is checking the arrested man’s internet/social media, his phone, any known associates of potential interest, properties of potential interest, were another person or group encouraging him, directly or indirectly?
If others did encourage him to resort to violence they will face arrest, so why not wait and see?
If rearrested under the Terrorism Act, he can be questioned for up to 14 days to enable, if seen to be required, further investigation.
Finally, two of the tributes paid to Ames’s were from an organization representing victims/refugees from the Iranian regime, maybe the killer didn’t like that, as well as Surfers For Clean Beaches in recognition of his environmental work in his Constituency.
Last edited by GDB on Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:53 am, edited 4 times in total.
Re: British MP Killed
GalaxyFlyer wrote:Dutchy wrote:Horrific news. Our elected officials should be safe and not being afraid of being killed.noviorbis77 wrote:A fine Member of Parliament with a passion for animal welfare.
Yes, a passion for animal welfare, he supported the ban on fox hunting. But very antiquated political views.His political views were robustly conservative and included support for the return of capital punishment and *censored*. He was a Catholic and opposed abortion. He was one of few Conservatives to support the ban on fox hunting
link
Reading his entry, there’s a lot to like about the man—tragic loss for tradition.
You might like his points of view, I couldn't be farther from his political views. In a free democracy, it is good that a wide spectrum of views is heard.
Re: British MP Killed
chimborazo wrote:...never acknowledging that it is Islam that is the problem.
Islam IS a problem. It sanctions subjugating or killing non-believers.
Re: British MP Killed
art wrote:chimborazo wrote:...never acknowledging that it is Islam that is the problem.
Islam IS a problem. It sanctions subjugating or killing non-believers.
But so do extremists generally, whatever political or religious creed they claim to represent. You may recall the mob in the US Capitol in January who brought a noose and some had Holocaust celebrating T Shirts, if they had got hold of their targets, which included by their own admission Mike Pence, think they would not have done it?
Many of the murders in the Northern Ireland troubles were sectarian rather than against the security forces, Islam does have an extremist problem but then so has India where the Muslim and more recently Christian minorities have been subjected to violence by Hindu fanatics, witness the communal violence and murder that has flared up over the years, not the great majority of them just the nutters with an extra faith political agenda.
Remember David Copeland? I bet you don’t. In 1999 he carried out nail bombings of places in London, killing some and injuring many, motivated by a hatred of ethnic minorities and the LBGT community, when they raided his flat, a big Swastika flag dominated the bedroom. More recently a man drove a long distance and murdered an elderly gentleman with his van outside a London Mosque, on interrogation and investigation his other targets included the current Mayor of London who is as much a Muslim as I am a Christian, essentially secular, also the then leader of the Labour Party.
Unlike his two predecessors, the current Prime Minister and before, the left wing but pragmatic with a touch of the maverick, Ken Livingstone, Mayor Khan sadly needs a security detail after many threats against him and his family, some credible enough to require this sad, once un British state of affairs.
Social media companies profit from clicks, likes of anger and hatred being the best in doing so,it’s how their programming is set up.
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- chimborazo
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Re: British MP Killed
Newark727 wrote:chimborazo wrote:
What prejudices? This is reality. You are part of the problem that lets this stuff continue to happen by calling someone prejudiced when they identify what the problem is.
You guys really, REALLY wanted it to be a white “mentally ill” person that performed this horrible act, didn’t you? Then you could sleep easy that there isn’t a problem with Islamic terrorism.
As it turns out, it appears to be an Islamic terrorist act by a non-white immigrant/second generation immigrant to the UK. We can be sure of that in fact because no way would the police even dare mention it if they weren’t 100% sure that were the case.
I actually think it shouldn’t be called terrorism, because it is mental illness. Mental illness supported by religion.
Epistemic closure is what they call it, when you've already arrived at a conclusion and rearrange all subsequent experience to fit it. You're so sure you're right that you've put words in the mouth of myself, the BBC, and others that fit your conclusion, rather than actually listening to anything they say. And you've already decided that the explanation for terrorism is Islam. Sure, this guy could be some species of Islamist, but in my book Procrustes doesn't get any credit for finding the one guy who fits in his bed without any stretching or sawing. Ultimately, it's a little arrogant, and turns a blind eye to all the other causes of political violence in the world (like the last time an MP was murdered less than six years ago.)
The BBC quoted the police as saying it was very likely Islamic terrorism. In the world we live in where so many are afraid to speak facts, they would not do that unless they were confident it was the truth for fear of upsetting the “tolerant majority” in the religion of peace. So… Where in my posts did I decide what had happened and then make what I wanted to fit it?
In your post, you have proven the point I was making: you are casting around in the hope that it may not be Islamic terrorism. Instead of accepting reality.
The stuff above in the thread about protecting MPs and whatnot… you simply can’t. When there are religious nutters (of all breeds) who think that it is okay to murder people like this then protection, security etc doesn’t work. The root cause of the problem has to be tackled.
Re: British MP Killed
art wrote:chimborazo wrote:...never acknowledging that it is Islam that is the problem.
Islam IS a problem. It sanctions subjugating or killing non-believers.
Islam in itself isn't a problem, extremist within Islam is the problem, and with any other religion or belief for that matter.
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- chimborazo
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Re: British MP Killed
Dutchy wrote:art wrote:chimborazo wrote:...never acknowledging that it is Islam that is the problem.
Islam IS a problem. It sanctions subjugating or killing non-believers.
Islam in itself isn't a problem, extremist within Islam is the problem, and with any other religion or belief for that matter.
I disagree. Islam is THE problem. It allows people to do these acts and the silent majority to stand by as they happen.
And many on here and across the “western” world encourage it by preaching tolerance and comparing how bad their terrorists are instead of looking at the problem.
Re: British MP Killed
chimborazo wrote:Dutchy wrote:art wrote:
Islam IS a problem. It sanctions subjugating or killing non-believers.
Islam in itself isn't a problem, extremist within Islam is the problem, and with any other religion or belief for that matter.
I disagree. Islam is THE problem. It allows people to do these acts and the silent majority to stand by as they happen.
And many on here and across the “western” world encourage it by preaching tolerance and comparing how bad their terrorists are instead of looking at the problem.
I get where you’re coming from, but we’re talking over 20% of the human population in terms of adherents. Straight question: how can you realistically dialogue with the non-extremists if you lump everyone in as same? Just seems totally impractical.
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- chimborazo
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Re: British MP Killed
Aaron747 wrote:chimborazo wrote:Dutchy wrote:
Islam in itself isn't a problem, extremist within Islam is the problem, and with any other religion or belief for that matter.
I disagree. Islam is THE problem. It allows people to do these acts and the silent majority to stand by as they happen.
And many on here and across the “western” world encourage it by preaching tolerance and comparing how bad their terrorists are instead of looking at the problem.
I get where you’re coming from, but we’re talking over 20% of the human population in terms of adherents. Straight question: how can you realistically dialogue with the non-extremists if you lump everyone in as same? Just seems totally impractical.
Then the 20% are the problem to the rest of us who can think with reason (well… then we have the rest of the religions..) Or should we subjugate and accept their views?
No right-minded person would see this murder as anything except an absolute affront to human decency but there are many that don’t. They accept it as part of their religion. It’s disgusting.
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- chimborazo
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Re: British MP Killed
Aaron747 wrote:chimborazo wrote:Dutchy wrote:
Islam in itself isn't a problem, extremist within Islam is the problem, and with any other religion or belief for that matter.
I disagree. Islam is THE problem. It allows people to do these acts and the silent majority to stand by as they happen.
And many on here and across the “western” world encourage it by preaching tolerance and comparing how bad their terrorists are instead of looking at the problem.
I get where you’re coming from, but we’re talking over 20% of the human population in terms of adherents. Straight question: how can you realistically dialogue with the non-extremists if you lump everyone in as same? Just seems totally impractical.
To answer your question: the vast majority of that 20% won’t see this as a problem. Allah will judge, it doesn’t matter that someone has died.
Re: British MP Killed
chimborazo wrote:Aaron747 wrote:chimborazo wrote:
I disagree. Islam is THE problem. It allows people to do these acts and the silent majority to stand by as they happen.
And many on here and across the “western” world encourage it by preaching tolerance and comparing how bad their terrorists are instead of looking at the problem.
I get where you’re coming from, but we’re talking over 20% of the human population in terms of adherents. Straight question: how can you realistically dialogue with the non-extremists if you lump everyone in as same? Just seems totally impractical.
To answer your question: the vast majority of that 20% won’t see this as a problem. Allah will judge, it doesn’t matter that someone has died.
Yeah right, guess what faith group were strongly represented amongst constituents laying wreaths and paying tribute to Ames’s? Pics on the Sky site, so not a BBC plot, unless you think they are faking it? Check if you don’t believe it.
Paranoid enough?
It’s attitudes like yours that give succor and justification for all those sending death threats to the Mayor of London, to the Prosecutor who was the one who really pushed to investigate those notorious grooming cases in the Bradford area and beyond, resulting in many arrests and plenty of eye watering sentences, well deserved.
Yes, how stupid is that, an issue that enraged them, like all right thinking people, they however are so paranoid about one faith group they threaten the man who worked hardest to investigate and bring these scum to justice, still though the target of anti Muslim hate and threats.
You might not believe it but being just as blinkered cuts across to those of a nasty disposition.
And ignorance is no excuse, certainly not in this day and age.
However much you agreed or disagreed with various issues with this hard working MP, even me, who really had little in common with him politically, can recognize he was not a hater, his eldest daughter, an actress, disagreed with her Father on LGBT issues, still like the rest of his family she will be devastated.
Principals honestly held, some of his were not held for advancement, frankly they would as I said in my first post up thread, actually impede it, at least are sincere and came from his religious faith.
Using your analogy with Muslims, well you know the very serious issues the Catholic Church has had, he never tried to excuse them, he wouldn’t and shouldn’t, he and most others were not at all involved in these scandals and crimes, so the same applies to Muslims.
Re: British MP Killed
chimborazo wrote:To answer your question: the vast majority of that 20% won’t see this as a problem. Allah will judge, it doesn’t matter that someone has died.
That may or may not be the case - but isn't really quantifiable either way. So again, how does lumping everyone in with the crazy improve the situation? That was the subtext of the question.
Re: British MP Killed
We have seen this before, in Holland. Film director van Gogh was also killed by an extremist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_ ... m_director)#Murder
Unfortunately, these incidents will continue to happening until people will learn to express their emotions verbally, and not violently.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_ ... m_director)#Murder
Unfortunately, these incidents will continue to happening until people will learn to express their emotions verbally, and not violently.
Re: British MP Killed
Dieuwer wrote:We have seen this before, in Holland. Film director van Gogh was also killed by an extremist.
Yes, he was, unfortunately, but I fail to see the relevance for this case.
Re: British MP Killed
Dutchy wrote:Dieuwer wrote:We have seen this before, in Holland. Film director van Gogh was also killed by an extremist.
Yes, he was, unfortunately, but I fail to see the relevance for this case.
Neither do I, Jo Cox was killed by a neo Nazi however much some might want to ignore that as it spoils the story so to speak. It is very similar to this latest case, doing their Constituency work, beyond the safety of Westminster.
I have heard of other accounts of MPs being concerned during their Surgery work, while it has got worse in recent years, the risk of just a mentally ill person attacking them though small, has always been there.
Re: British MP Killed
chimborazo wrote:I disagree. Islam is THE problem. It allows people to do these acts and the silent majority to stand by as they happen.
That is a very dangerous attitude to take towards a group of 1,9bn people. The group can't be held accountable for the acts of an extremist. Never. Isam isn't a problem, extremists are.
Re: British MP Killed
Dutchy wrote:chimborazo wrote:I disagree. Islam is THE problem. It allows people to do these acts and the silent majority to stand by as they happen.
That is a very dangerous attitude to take towards a group of 1,9bn people. The group can't be held accountable for the acts of an extremist. Never. Isam isn't a problem, extremists are.
So if we deny extremist access to guns and knives we can control them or protect ourselves?
If we accept that extremist within these religions are the problem we have to find a way to address them within the religion and not on the battlefield, now which government in the world has dedicated resources to engage these religions like that? The extremist use our way of life as their tools - social media - so until we address at the source which is the religion and its adherents, we are just kicking the can down the road and allowing extremist on the other side to start speaking for us, if we do not want a religious war we have to start engaging on the religious level.
Re: British MP Killed
par13del wrote:Dutchy wrote:chimborazo wrote:I disagree. Islam is THE problem. It allows people to do these acts and the silent majority to stand by as they happen.
That is a very dangerous attitude to take towards a group of 1,9bn people. The group can't be held accountable for the acts of an extremist. Never. Isam isn't a problem, extremists are.
So if we deny extremist access to guns and knives we can control them or protect ourselves?
If we accept that extremist within these religions are the problem we have to find a way to address them within the religion and not on the battlefield, now which government in the world has dedicated resources to engage these religions like that? The extremist use our way of life as their tools - social media - so until we address at the source which is the religion and its adherents, we are just kicking the can down the road and allowing extremist on the other side to start speaking for us, if we do not want a religious war we have to start engaging on the religious level.
check, so banning all religions will do the trick?
Re: British MP Killed
par13del wrote:Dutchy wrote:chimborazo wrote:I disagree. Islam is THE problem. It allows people to do these acts and the silent majority to stand by as they happen.
That is a very dangerous attitude to take towards a group of 1,9bn people. The group can't be held accountable for the acts of an extremist. Never. Isam isn't a problem, extremists are.
So if we deny extremist access to guns and knives we can control them or protect ourselves?
If we accept that extremist within these religions are the problem we have to find a way to address them within the religion and not on the battlefield, now which government in the world has dedicated resources to engage these religions like that? The extremist use our way of life as their tools - social media - so until we address at the source which is the religion and its adherents, we are just kicking the can down the road and allowing extremist on the other side to start speaking for us, if we do not want a religious war we have to start engaging on the religious level.
The French government has. With the other main religions (Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism) this has been done more than a century ago. The problem with Islam is that there is no leader to speak to.
Re: British MP Killed
Dutchy wrote:chimborazo wrote:I disagree. Islam is THE problem. It allows people to do these acts and the silent majority to stand by as they happen.
That is a very dangerous attitude to take towards a group of 1,9bn people. The group can't be held accountable for the acts of an extremist. Never. Isam isn't a problem, extremists are.
What does it matter how big the group is? A group can’t be held accountable for the acts of an extremist, but can be held accountable for the ideology they support and legitimate.
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