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Drafran
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Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:36 pm

Former Secretary of State, former Republican, and all around smart guy died of Covid 19 complications.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/18/politics ... index.html
 
johns624
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:41 pm

That sucks. RIP I always liked him.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:59 pm

Good man and a good leader. May he Rest in Peace.
 
910A
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:14 pm

Guess he and Biden won't be comparing Corvette's anymore. What a great person.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:39 pm

Powell was a classy man but unfortunately he allowed his career to be tarnished by those WMD presentations in 2002. I think a successful run for POTUS might have done a lot to remove that stain.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:45 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Powell was a classy man but unfortunately he allowed his career to be tarnished by those WMD presentations in 2002.


Absolutely agree.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:56 pm

Presidential appointees have got the balance loyalty to the president with their even greater loyalties to their integrity. The balance is difficult and even great men and women have lost it. Powell really was one of the great and respected men of the late last century. He was not at fault for the second Iraq war, but obviously tarnished by it.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:28 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
He was not at fault for the second Iraq war, but obviously tarnished by it.


It’s surprising how quickly some forget history. On February 5 2003, one month prior to the war starting, Powell got up in front of the UN and the world and gave a presentation that he knew at the time was not accurate. Overstating Iraqi links to Al Qaeda, relying on anonymous suspect sources, translating documents incorrectly on purpose, lying about intent. And he knew it was false as privately at the time he expressed doubts. But still gave the speech.

This was the speech used to convince the doubters that War was the only option and Powell was the one who gave it as he was seen as the sensible one compared to hawks like Cheney and Rumsfeld. So if a widely respected figure like Powell thought that war was necessary then it truly must be necessary.

No, Powell was a major factor in the propaganda campaign used to sell the lies for war to the world, and he willingly participated in it. Just like Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bolton, Bush and all the others it’s a shame he didn’t end up in the dock to answer for his crimes against humanity.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:42 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
it’s a shame he didn’t end up in the dock to answer for his crimes against humanity.


This is often said but a misnomer since the US does not recognize the ICC.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:56 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
it’s a shame he didn’t end up in the dock to answer for his crimes against humanity.


This is often said but a misnomer since the US does not recognize the ICC.


Not necessarily the ICC just any legitimate tribunal or court so he can answer to why he was part of a conspiracy to pursue a war of aggression.

Today my thoughts are with the 400,000-600,000 Iraqis killed and the millions wounded, displaced, or suffering mental anguish and PTSD from that war.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:05 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:

No, Powell was a major factor in the propaganda campaign used to sell the lies for war to the world, and he willingly participated in it. Just like Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bolton, Bush and all the others it’s a shame he didn’t end up in the dock to answer for his crimes against humanity.


Its always interesting for the cries for justice to never include the likes of Putin, Xi, Soleimani, or Kim.

Just Western leaders.

I wonder if its because the chances of smelling a rag dipped in Novichok is next to zero for waving your hand and screaming "Bush is a war criminal!"
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:15 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:

No, Powell was a major factor in the propaganda campaign used to sell the lies for war to the world, and he willingly participated in it. Just like Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bolton, Bush and all the others it’s a shame he didn’t end up in the dock to answer for his crimes against humanity.


Its always interesting for the cries for justice to never include the likes of Putin, Xi, Soleimani, or Kim.

Just Western leaders.

I wonder if its because the chances of smelling a rag dipped in Novichok is next to zero for waving your hand and screaming "Bush is a war criminal!"


That take lacks some pretty significant nuance, no? We have a functioning legal system in Western countries, and people in power are ideally held to account when in the wrong. 'Never' is also a massively broad brush untruth considering human rights groups are *routinely* reporting on and demanding justice re the likes of Putin, Xi, and Kim.

https://www.hrw.org/europe/central-asia/russia

https://www.hrw.org/asia/north-korea

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press ... -freedoms/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/resea ... g-in-fear/
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:19 pm

That is very sad. One of the most respected politicians in my book. Very wise guy. RIP.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:49 pm

Aaron747 wrote:

That take lacks some pretty significant nuance, no? We have a functioning legal system in Western countries, and people in power are ideally held to account when in the wrong. 'Never' is also a massively broad brush untruth considering human rights groups are *routinely* reporting on and demanding justice re the likes of Putin, Xi, and Kim.

https://www.hrw.org/europe/central-asia/russia

https://www.hrw.org/asia/north-korea

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press ... -freedoms/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/resea ... g-in-fear/


Human rights organization reporting is now the standard? What we know about the failures of US foreign policy is a function of relatively free and open press and often government disclosure. What we know about these other nations is also a function of Western free and open press. So, there is a fundamental assessment to be made here about what is bad, and what is FAR worse.

The other point to be made was that there was next to no doubt that there were fundamental issues specifically with the Iraqi Oil for Food program, which turned out to be money for Hussein to continue his extraordinary repressive rule, and lots of people in the international community to engage in self-enrichment at the cost of the Iraqi people.

So, one of the major costs of continuing the completely ineffectual oil-for-food programs was the general lessening of the power of sanctions, dis-engagement schemes and other models conflict resolution. This would have (and I would argue, has had) deleterious effects on common international norms. This is not something that a nation that stands for these norms should be prepared to unilaterally accept.

Lots of Iraqis died during Western military operations in Iraq. How many of those were killed by Special Groups, AQIZ or other terror organizations? Care to hazard a percentage?
 
johns624
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:53 pm

I'm on a very conservative site and they all hate him. They hate him because he didn't disagree with his president when he should've, yet they hate Mattis, etc., because they did disagree with Trump when they should've. The disconnect is great...
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:02 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

That take lacks some pretty significant nuance, no? We have a functioning legal system in Western countries, and people in power are ideally held to account when in the wrong. 'Never' is also a massively broad brush untruth considering human rights groups are *routinely* reporting on and demanding justice re the likes of Putin, Xi, and Kim.

https://www.hrw.org/europe/central-asia/russia

https://www.hrw.org/asia/north-korea

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press ... -freedoms/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/resea ... g-in-fear/


Human rights organization reporting is now the standard? What we know about the failures of US foreign policy is a function of relatively free and open press and often government disclosure. What we know about these other nations is also a function of Western free and open press. So, there is a fundamental assessment to be made here about what is bad, and what is FAR worse.

The other point to be made was that there was next to no doubt that there were fundamental issues specifically with the Iraqi Oil for Food program, which turned out to be money for Hussein to continue his extraordinary repressive rule, and lots of people in the international community to engage in self-enrichment at the cost of the Iraqi people.

So, one of the major costs of continuing the completely ineffectual oil-for-food programs was the general lessening of the power of sanctions, dis-engagement schemes and other models conflict resolution. This would have (and I would argue, has had) deleterious effects on common international norms. This is not something that a nation that stands for these norms should be prepared to unilaterally accept.

Lots of Iraqis died during Western military operations in Iraq. How many of those were killed by Special Groups, AQIZ or other terror organizations? Care to hazard a percentage?


Not interested in goalpost jumping in a thread about Powell, but the claim was made that westerners 'never' call out the worst leaders on the planet - and that plainly ain't so. The great thing about human rights organizations is they call out whatever needs calling out - anywhere. As for bad and far worse, that is already irrelevant because those are emotional measurements. If people have unduly died unnecessarily due to policy anywhere, that is ostensibly 'bad' and already a failure, regardless of responsible party. What's logical is that we have very limited control over the conduct of the likes of Putin and Xi, but we can hold our own leaders to account - as you say, we have the press and disclosure means to do so.

Virtually anyone who follows intel and foreign policy acknowledges the power vacuum created by ousting Hussein opened the door for the killings you speak of. Whether or not those tallies are worse than the killings by his own security forces and quelling of uprisings in his reign is anyone's guess. HRW estimated in 2004 that he may have been responsible for the deaths of up to 200,000+. This seems to be somewhat less than estimates made by various study methodologies on the effects of the 2nd Iraq War - the midrange seems to be in the 400K-700Ks. In the final analysis it's an absurd number of people in each era and ultimately its everyday Iraqis who ate the raw deal since the 1970s.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210520135 ... nce#_ftn47
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3797136/
Last edited by Aaron747 on Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:03 pm

johns624 wrote:
I'm on a very conservative site and they all hate him. They hate him because he didn't disagree with his president when he should've, yet they hate Mattis, etc., because they did disagree with Trump when they should've. The disconnect is great...


Those people are the worst. They were rah-rah for Iraq in 2003. They only changed tune and pretend they were always against because they wanted to be on the 'same side' with Trump.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:35 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
He was not at fault for the second Iraq war, but obviously tarnished by it.


It’s surprising how quickly some forget history. On February 5 2003, one month prior to the war starting, Powell got up in front of the UN and the world and gave a presentation that he knew at the time was not accurate. Overstating Iraqi links to Al Qaeda, relying on anonymous suspect sources, translating documents incorrectly on purpose, lying about intent. And he knew it was false as privately at the time he expressed doubts. But still gave the speech.

This was the speech used to convince the doubters that War was the only option and Powell was the one who gave it as he was seen as the sensible one compared to hawks like Cheney and Rumsfeld. So if a widely respected figure like Powell thought that war was necessary then it truly must be necessary.

No, Powell was a major factor in the propaganda campaign used to sell the lies for war to the world, and he willingly participated in it. Just like Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bolton, Bush and all the others it’s a shame he didn’t end up in the dock to answer for his crimes against humanity.


:checkmark:

At the end of the day he and his cronies lied to the world inorder to start a war in which hundreds of thousands died and which brought untold suffering to millions. People can do all sorts of mental gymnastics to try and justify it and try to pretend that holding leaders to account for their actions is somehow a bad thing, but that's the bottom line.

Chirac pointed out the lies and the other bullshit. People had a choice of who to believe. Chirac was right. Bush, Powell, Rumsfeld and Cheney were wrong.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:46 pm

I hate Putin with a passion and he's doing great harm wherever he can, but you can't really compare him with the Iraq war which has created a gigantic mess, has destabilized the whole region potentially forever, has created ISIS which is spreading everywhere, will lead to terror attacks for decades to come...
 
THS214
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:49 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:

No, Powell was a major factor in the propaganda campaign used to sell the lies for war to the world, and he willingly participated in it. Just like Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bolton, Bush and all the others it’s a shame he didn’t end up in the dock to answer for his crimes against humanity.


Its always interesting for the cries for justice to never include the likes of Putin, Xi, Soleimani, or Kim.

Just Western leaders.

I wonder if its because the chances of smelling a rag dipped in Novichok is next to zero for waving your hand and screaming "Bush is a war criminal!"


Putin should be on the list but the other three? What have they done to be on the list? Who is saying that Merkel should be on the list? Soleimani? Because Iran was on the same side with Syrian government? Fighting against ISIL? You may keep him on the list but then you must put pretty much every US general in the last two decades on that list too. Bush junior is by far ahead of any other in the last decades.

Powell was an opportunist who believed that in everything USA must be protected no matter what. That lead to my lai massacre whitewashing and the famous UN speech while in both situations he knew that he was lying.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:59 pm

Drafran wrote:
Former Secretary of State, former Republican, and all around smart guy died of Covid 19 complications.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/18/politics ... index.html


Was fully vaccinated too. He was very immunocompromised tho. This has been my fear all along is that these vaccines lose their gusto quick and high risk people like myself are just as much at risk vaccinated or not. I liked the guy but unfortunately like anything tied to Bush and the Iraq war will forever tarnish his legacy
 
737307
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:06 pm

stratosphere wrote:
Drafran wrote:
Former Secretary of State, former Republican, and all around smart guy died of Covid 19 complications.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/18/politics ... index.html


Was fully vaccinated too. He was very immunocompromised tho. This has been my fear all along is that these vaccines lose their gusto quick and high risk people like myself are just as much at risk vaccinated or not. I liked the guy but unfortunately like anything tied to Bush and the Iraq war will forever tarnish his legacy


He was 84 years old. If not for the COVID/myeloma, he would have probably died of old age.
So, what's new?
Last edited by 737307 on Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:07 pm

stratosphere wrote:
Drafran wrote:
Former Secretary of State, former Republican, and all around smart guy died of Covid 19 complications.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/18/politics ... index.html


Was fully vaccinated too. He was very immunocompromised tho. This has been my fear all along is that these vaccines lose their gusto quick and high risk people like myself are just as much at risk vaccinated or not. I liked the guy but unfortunately like anything tied to Bush and the Iraq war will forever tarnish his legacy


Powell was never going to have full immune response because he suffered from multiple myeloma.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/18/us/p ... eloma.html
 
737307
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:11 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
Drafran wrote:
Former Secretary of State, former Republican, and all around smart guy died of Covid 19 complications.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/18/politics ... index.html


Was fully vaccinated too. He was very immunocompromised tho. This has been my fear all along is that these vaccines lose their gusto quick and high risk people like myself are just as much at risk vaccinated or not. I liked the guy but unfortunately like anything tied to Bush and the Iraq war will forever tarnish his legacy


Powell was never going to have full immune response because he suffered from multiple myeloma.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/18/us/p ... eloma.html


Shows you that the CNN headline is disingenuous. CNN will do anything to get the clicks going. And what better way than to interject "COVID" in there? Never mind that Power's myeloma was most likely the cause of his death.
 
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seb146
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:16 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:

Was fully vaccinated too. He was very immunocompromised tho. This has been my fear all along is that these vaccines lose their gusto quick and high risk people like myself are just as much at risk vaccinated or not. I liked the guy but unfortunately like anything tied to Bush and the Iraq war will forever tarnish his legacy


Powell was never going to have full immune response because he suffered from multiple myeloma.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/18/us/p ... eloma.html


Shows you that the CNN headline is disingenuous. CNN will do anything to get the clicks going. And what better way than to interject "COVID" in there? Never mind that Power's myeloma was most likely the cause of his death.


Not just CNN but American media in general. They do it for traffic, not information. OAN, Newsmax, Fox, CNN.... they push what they push for views, not to inform people.

Gen. Powell was well respected across the political spectrum. He was intelligent and that frightened some people. Sure, he was Republican on paper, but he knew what was best for the country. Except for Iraq.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:54 pm

RIP to a great man.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:24 pm

seb146 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Powell was never going to have full immune response because he suffered from multiple myeloma.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/18/us/p ... eloma.html


Shows you that the CNN headline is disingenuous. CNN will do anything to get the clicks going. And what better way than to interject "COVID" in there? Never mind that Power's myeloma was most likely the cause of his death.


Not just CNN but American media in general. They do it for traffic, not information. OAN, Newsmax, Fox, CNN.... they push what they push for views, not to inform people.

Gen. Powell was well respected across the political spectrum. He was intelligent and that frightened some people. Sure, he was Republican on paper, but he knew what was best for the country. Except for Iraq.



At least CNN fixes their headlines as more information comes available during the day.
https://www.cnn.com/
"Colin Powell dies of Covid amid cancer battle"


As for the right wing sights, as long as they sell viagra, fear and gold, they are fine.

fox news
https://www.foxnews.com/
Experts weigh in on Powell's reported death from COVID despite vaccination‘WAKE UP CALL'
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:07 pm

He played a key role in the run-up to the Iraq War. A war of opportunity based on nothing. A war in which 500,000 people were killed. Because the Iraqi people, from 6,000 miles away, vaguely resemble the 9/11 hijackers to some Americans.

Powell knew better. IMO, Colin Powell died that day in 2002 when he gave that speech. It was then that I mourned the loss of a great man. His death, today, means nothing by comparison.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:05 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
He played a key role in the run-up to the Iraq War. A war of opportunity based on nothing. A war in which 500,000 people were killed. Because the Iraqi people, from 6,000 miles away, vaguely resemble the 9/11 hijackers to some Americans.


The atmosphere was so heated after September 2001 that the USA could’ve invaded any Arab/Muslim nation and had a majority of the public supporting them. We later discovered through Gen Wesley Clark’s infamous “7 countries in 5 years” speech that the US was planning multiple regime change wars/operations within a month of the WTC attacks.

They way the warmongers spoke you would’ve thought Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden were the best of friends and Saddam was the major supporter of Al Qaeda. The reality was Bin Laden hated Saddam. Saddam was a secularist who had opposed religious fundamentalists whom he saw as a threat to his leadership. Bin Laden had wanted to raise an army to fight Saddam’s forces in the 91 Gulf War.

Yet Powell mentioned Jordanian jihadist Al Zarqawi 21 times in his UN speech who he contended was a key link between Saddam and Bin Laden. Reality he was a nobody until the US invaded, then became influential of the back of resisting the US invasion, and his group eventually became Islamic State.

All thanks to Colin Powell boosting his profile in his UN speech.

FlapOperator wrote:

Its always interesting for the cries for justice to never include the likes of Putin, Xi, Soleimani, or Kim.


Put in started an illegal war in some parts of the Ukraine that comparatively has been less Sebastián than Iraq, only a few thousand civilians killed and hasn’t had the widespread follow on effects Iraq has. Xi, Kim haven’t started offensive external wars. Soleimani was the guy who actually defended Iraq against Islamic State in 2014. He also co-operated with the US in Afghanistan against Al Qaeda in 2001 before they turned on him and he was eventually assassinated by Trump in 2020.

Powell, and his Bush Administration cronies, are objectively bigger war criminals and have caused more death and destruction this century than any other group of people.
Last edited by sierrakilo44 on Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:07 pm

RIP to a great statesman!

Tugg
 
Newark727
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:34 pm

Powell was an intelligent, competent, and driven man. However, some mistakes are simply too great - the Iraq War is his legacy, as it is Rumsfeld's when he died earlier this year. I don't know if I agree with sierrakilo44, that he deserved to have been prosecuted. But I do know that at the very least he doesn't deserve hagiography.
 
THS214
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:28 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
He played a key role in the run-up to the Iraq War. A war of opportunity based on nothing. A war in which 500,000 people were killed. Because the Iraqi people, from 6,000 miles away, vaguely resemble the 9/11 hijackers to some Americans.


The atmosphere was so heated after September 2001 that the USA could’ve invaded any Arab/Muslim nation and had a majority of the public supporting them. We later discovered through Gen Wesley Clark’s infamous “7 countries in 5 years” speech that the US was planning multiple regime change wars/operations within a month of the WTC attacks.

They way the warmongers spoke you would’ve thought Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden were the best of friends and Saddam was the major supporter of Al Qaeda. The reality was Bin Laden hated Saddam. Saddam was a secularist who had opposed religious fundamentalists whom he saw as a threat to his leadership. Bin Laden had wanted to raise an army to fight Saddam’s forces in the 91 Gulf War.

Yet Powell mentioned Jordanian jihadist Al Zarqawi 21 times in his UN speech who he contended was a key link between Saddam and Bin Laden. Reality he was a nobody until the US invaded, then became influential of the back of resisting the US invasion, and his group eventually became Islamic State.

All thanks to Colin Powell boosting his profile in his UN speech.

FlapOperator wrote:

Its always interesting for the cries for justice to never include the likes of Putin, Xi, Soleimani, or Kim.


Put in started an illegal war in some parts of the Ukraine that comparatively has been less Sebastián than Iraq, only a few thousand civilians killed and hasn’t had the widespread follow on effects Iraq has. Xi, Kim haven’t started offensive external wars. Soleimani was the guy who actually defended Iraq against Islamic State in 2014. He also co-operated with the US in Afghanistan against Al Qaeda in 2001 before they turned on him and he was eventually assassinated by Trump in 2020.

Powell, and his Bush Administration cronies, are objectively bigger war criminals and have caused more death and destruction this century than any other group of people.


This is something that everyone should read before making Powell such a great man. Powell had a lot of blood in his hands. He had his choice and he decided to lie. And he knew it.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:44 am

Newark727 wrote:
Powell was an intelligent, competent, and driven man. However, some mistakes are simply too great - the Iraq War is his legacy, as it is Rumsfeld's when he died earlier this year. I don't know if I agree with sierrakilo44, that he deserved to have been prosecuted. But I do know that at the very least he doesn't deserve hagiography.


I think he fell in love with his medals and his epaulets. With being close to the presidency. Some of Hitler’s men had the same problem. Powell got motivated to do evil, because it was done using the chain of command he so worshipped. He was a good man, but the situation called for a great man. Powell, maybe because he had complied so long and risen so far, was unable to wield authority when it counted most. As Ross Perot said, a bit dismissively, Powell was a “good soldier.” But that’s all he was.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:48 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
Powell was an intelligent, competent, and driven man. However, some mistakes are simply too great - the Iraq War is his legacy, as it is Rumsfeld's when he died earlier this year. I don't know if I agree with sierrakilo44, that he deserved to have been prosecuted. But I do know that at the very least he doesn't deserve hagiography.


Some of Hitler’s men had the same problem.


This is only an apt comparison with regard to Speer and Göring. Other insiders like Himmler, Goebbels, Bormann were evil to the core and deeply involved with planning / enabling genocide.
 
Newark727
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:25 am

Aaron747 wrote:
This is only an apt comparison with regard to Speer and Göring. Other insiders like Himmler, Goebbels, Bormann were evil to the core and deeply involved with planning / enabling genocide.


Per Adam Tooze's Wages of Destructions, Speer was pretty thoroughly involved with the exploitation of slave labor that was essentially inseparable from the genocide.

Not really on topic though.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:42 am

THS214 wrote:
This is something that everyone should read before making Powell such a great man. Powell had a lot of blood in his hands. He had his choice and he decided to lie. And he knew it.


The more I read about Powell the more I find his lies about Iraq were just one in a long list of evil behaviour.

He wrote in his memoirs about commanding South Vietnamese troops to burn down civilian villages during the Vietnam war when he was an advisor, and tried to justify it as necessary to win the conflict.

He buried and dismissed reports of war crimes and illegal behaviour when he was a commanding officer in the same US Army unit that perpetrated the My Lai massacre.

He aided and funded Nicaragua’s Contra Death Squads as National Security Advisor in 1987.

He was against “Don’t ask Don’t tell” as a stopgap to let LGBT be in the military, he supported an outright ban.

But now he’s being re-incarnated because he went on CNN and said bad things about Trump. I hate Trump as much as any reasonable person but Powell is objectively worse, at least Trump didn’t invade countries over lies.

It makes me shudder to think about how much praise and glory will be heaped upon George W Bush, given his reputation has been rehabilitated by being in the “Trump Bad!” camp.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:38 pm

Yep, Powell lied at the UN and the whole thing was a scam from the get go. The US administration was miss using inteligence information from allies to go to war. One of the rare occasions where Norway has said no to the US and refused to take part in an invasion. The Bush administration treatend Norway with severe consequences to the good relationship between friends ... Did not go down well in Norway ...
 
wingman
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:30 pm

The worst part of Iraq 2 was the effect it had on Afghanistan. It turned it into a mere afterthought that lingered for 20 years. To me though Bush and Powell were the chess pieces. The true evil was always Rumsfeld and Cheney. Iraq 2 was their master plan and Cheney got exactly what he wanted most which was tens of billions of dollars funneled to Halliburton and his oil buddies.

I agree with many posters, Powell tarnished what would've been an exemplary career the minute he held up that Fedex tube in front of the world and claimed Saddam was about to nuke us all. I complained in another thread that these idiots never had a plan for Afghanistan after all the horrible lessons of Vietnam. It was actually two simultaneous wars they launched without plans. 7500 dead Americans, a 100,000 maimed or scarred for life, hundreds of thousands dead in both countries, dead allies..and they have the balls to criticize Biden for a messy withdrawal and 13 dead soldiers on the exit. The party of Trump. I'll give Powell that at least, he knew a true scumbag when he saw one. Pity 70M Americans still can't smell the stench.
 
skyservice_330
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:34 pm

RIP to an American that gave his life to the people of the USA.

This thread is almost like a microcosm of the debate that will occur in history books for the years to come over the reputation of Powell. On the one hand, a military man and statesman who had a long career and gave to his country. Arguably, something quite noble. On the other hand, that career included decisions and actions, as some have noted, that are deeply troubling and resulted in death and destruction. Airliners.net users 30 years from now may still be debating his reputation/legacy in a way that is not dissimilar from what is above!

What is also troubling, but not surprising, is how his vaccination status is being used by the anti-vaccination folks to push their message.
 
cpd
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:20 pm

Being old and battling cancer does not help at all despite being vaccinated. That’s why for those types of people they have to be extra cautious in what they do and where they go and hope those around them are similarly careful.

He battled the cancer with a pretty good mentality from some of the interviews I’ve read. RIP.

Such a terrible thing cancer… :(
 
skyservice_330
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:49 pm

cpd wrote:
Being old and battling cancer does not help at all despite being vaccinated. That’s why for those types of people they have to be extra cautious in what they do and where they go and hope those around them are similarly careful.


Exactly (emphasis added). Powell didn't die because he got the vaccine. He died, arguably, because others didn't and increased their risk of contracting and spreading to those with weak immune systems from other ailments.. like cancer.

Champions and friends of Powell should not let the anti-vax folks hijack his name and legacy for their shallow cause.

cpd wrote:
Such a terrible thing cancer… :(


Is it ever... is it ever...
 
cpd
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:20 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:
Is it ever... is it ever...



One of my friends died from it as well, a less common form of cancer that could not be treated. They tried everything including treatments for different types of cancer with similarities, experimental stuff. Part of that was signing over the medical data from that treatment to the company who did the drugs used for the treatment. That company covered the costs of the treatment which otherwise would have been hugely expensive. :(

He battled it with determination and tried to keep normal activity. He was fit like I am, but ultimately it was no good. They could limit it for a while, but ultimately they couldn't stop it. :( We knew that, but it didn't make it any easier - he handled it so well.

That was before COVID came along. It's still sad but maybe the knowledge from the treatment might go some small way to helping someone else.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:12 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
Drafran wrote:
Former Secretary of State, former Republican, and all around smart guy died of Covid 19 complications.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/18/politics ... index.html


Was fully vaccinated too. He was very immunocompromised tho. This has been my fear all along is that these vaccines lose their gusto quick and high risk people like myself are just as much at risk vaccinated or not. I liked the guy but unfortunately like anything tied to Bush and the Iraq war will forever tarnish his legacy


Powell was never going to have full immune response because he suffered from multiple myeloma.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/18/us/p ... eloma.html

This is the shame. Cancer patients among many others are more vulnerable:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... tions.html

Anything that hurts blood circulation or building immunity has a negative impact including old age and cancer.

High risk people need the booster and need to be surrounded by people who had the booster.

I very much respect Powell. If we were to pick a one strike you're out, that makes it impossible to respect any politician.

My concern is the anti-vax crowd are circling the wagons around his death without reading the vulnerable list.

Lightsaber
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:21 am

If Powell had refused to give that WMD speech, the Bush Admin would have ousted him. He chose to keep his job. Who know what anyone would do in that situation. Talk is cheap.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:28 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
If Powell had refused to give that WMD speech, the Bush Admin would have ousted him. He chose to keep his job. Who know what anyone would do in that situation. Talk is cheap.


Yup he was a selfish man, he kept his job but the end result was millions of deaths and the Middle East in flames to this day. If I beloved in hell that’s where he and his boss belong.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:46 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
If Powell had refused to give that WMD speech, the Bush Admin would have ousted him. He chose to keep his job. Who know what anyone would do in that situation. Talk is cheap.


Easy for a man with his knowledge of history to predict that being the rare person to stand up and say NO would result in job offers from think tanks around the world and a sterling legacy. Might have even triggered a paradigm shift in US foreign policy that would be less counterproductive...who knows? He chose not to be that catalyst.
 
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keesje
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:22 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
it’s a shame he didn’t end up in the dock to answer for his crimes against humanity.


This is often said but a misnomer since the US does not recognize the ICC.


Not necessarily the ICC just any legitimate tribunal or court so he can answer to why he was part of a conspiracy to pursue a war of aggression.

Today my thoughts are with the 400,000-600,000 Iraqis killed and the millions wounded, displaced, or suffering mental anguish and PTSD from that war.


I always saw Powell as a voice of reason, a decent guy, often surrounded by more hawkish types. Those types pushed him into the UN spotlights with the scandalous & damaging US WMD presentations & he followed orders as a good soldier.

I saw an interview with reasonable people in Iraq, looking back at Powell. Obviously being on the battlefield side of the ocean gives different perspectives. E.g. if Sadam was battled and removed from say Utah or Oregon & hundreds of thousands people died, villages devastated in a civil war, people in the US would probably have a different view too.
 
blackrock
Posts: 12
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:33 am

RIP Powell, I agree he was a very decent guy and a great military officer.

At the end, his work as military was effective and acceptable.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:37 pm

Accepting a president appointment should often include hazardous pay. Part of the job is being the fall guy. And often being labelled with the fallout of whatever the major failures were of the legacy of that president. Bush2 is slowly seeing building esteem for his presidency. Powell definitely set himself up for that fall, and for what he likely thought were honorable reasons at the time. I suspect, had he been more ambitious (and somewhat in the bad sense of that term) he would not have let this happen to him.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Colin Powell dead at 84

Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:13 am

Aaron747 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
If Powell had refused to give that WMD speech, the Bush Admin would have ousted him. He chose to keep his job. Who know what anyone would do in that situation. Talk is cheap.


Easy for a man with his knowledge of history to predict that being the rare person to stand up and say NO would result in job offers from think tanks around the world and a sterling legacy. Might have even triggered a paradigm shift in US foreign policy that would be less counterproductive...who knows? He chose not to be that catalyst.


Nuremburg Principal IV:

The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.


The German Generals would've been executed for treason had they refused Hitler's orders. Yet the Court found they still had a responsibility to refuse to carry them out.

Powell wasn't facing extreme consequences if he had refused Bush and Cheney's orders on Iraq. All that would have happened was a resignation, and then highly paid speaking positions and media appearances. He would've been fine. If he had said he was not satisfied with the evidence the case for war would've been over. The middle east wouldn't be in flames. Afghanistan probably would be in a better situation today with no distractions. Al Qaeda would've been disrupted earlier. IS wouldn't have risen. Syria wouldn't be in flames. Lesser chance of right wing populists appearing all over the world, including Trump. Trillions of dollars could've been diverted to social welfare and science, who knows better solutions on climate could've been invented with that money.

Yes, it's very plausible to say world history was fundamentally changed when Colin Powell got up in front of the UN and lied to fool the hesitant into thinking that war was the only option.

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