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readytotaxi
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Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:28 pm

China has denied reports that it tested a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile earlier this year, insisting instead that it was a routine spacecraft check.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-58953352

"Along with China, the US, Russia and at least five other countries are working on hypersonic missile technology.
They can fly at more than five times the speed of sound and, much like ballistic missiles, can deliver a nuclear warhead."

Well I doubt they would admit it until it was proven technology, testing these things now is a lot harder to hide.
 
phugoid1982
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:33 pm

It's being reported all over the news. Apparently it only missed it's target by two dozen miles which is fairly impressive for this class of weapon. I'm sure people at my old defense company are salivating over this and how the military industrial complex can profit from more of the "Red scare". Personally, this is just sabre rattling if it's even accurate. The Chinese are far too smart and practical to risk going to war and risking being an economic pariah.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:09 pm

I'm not sure I see the point of arming such a missile with a nuke.

An ICBM in its reentry phase (its various reentry vehicles) is already hypersonic.

The advantage of an hypersonic missile is to emulate the difficulty of interception of an ICBM without being a WMD. To attack an aircraft carrier for example. If nukes are an option, then an ICBM should do the trick.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:14 pm

Aesma wrote:
I'm not sure I see the point of arming such a missile with a nuke.

An ICBM in its reentry phase (its various reentry vehicles) is already hypersonic.

The advantage of an hypersonic missile is to emulate the difficulty of interception of an ICBM without being a WMD. To attack an aircraft carrier for example. If nukes are an option, then an ICBM should do the trick.


Great comment; never thought about that! So, is this just an ICBM with conventional armament? What other differences?
 
phugoid1982
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:44 pm

If the Chinese are truly disregarding the provisions of the Outer Space Treaty (my orbital mech is very rusty since I was mostly an Aero guy) but it might make sense to send an orbital vehicle with a nuke and park it in a Lagrange Point until needed (if ever) for use against a specific target.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:06 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I'm not sure I see the point of arming such a missile with a nuke.

An ICBM in its reentry phase (its various reentry vehicles) is already hypersonic.

The advantage of an hypersonic missile is to emulate the difficulty of interception of an ICBM without being a WMD. To attack an aircraft carrier for example. If nukes are an option, then an ICBM should do the trick.


Great comment; never thought about that! So, is this just an ICBM with conventional armament? What other differences?


Ballistic missiles with conventional warheads are possible, they're not sensible though, because the target thinks a nuke is coming, and is likely to retaliate with one.

Any relatively big missile can carry a nuke, and there used to be anti aircraft nuclear missiles, antiship nuclear torpedoes, etc.

Usually when talking about hypersonic missiles the idea is a regular anti aircraft (or even anti satellite) missile with a powerful engine to be that fast, or a cruise missile with same. The cruise missile variant would be useful against well defended targets, similar to an ICBM.

Here what China seems to have tested, and is also in development by other countries, is indeed a bit of a mix of the two, it goes into space to be able to strike anywhere, and uses the reentry to gain speed, while keeping more maneuverability than a regular reentry vehicle, making it even more difficult to intercept.

So my earlier answer was more about the first kind of missile, that second kind is related to an ICBM, and to me using it is risking nuclear war, so you might as well put a nuke on it.

A war with China is a big unknown though, I guess they could try to shoot at a carrier group with such a missile and a conventional warhead, announcing to the world that it's not nuclear and China is only defending its waters or something.
 
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moo
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:48 pm

Aesma wrote:
I'm not sure I see the point of arming such a missile with a nuke.

An ICBM in its reentry phase (its various reentry vehicles) is already hypersonic.

The advantage of an hypersonic missile is to emulate the difficulty of interception of an ICBM without being a WMD. To attack an aircraft carrier for example. If nukes are an option, then an ICBM should do the trick.


Cruise missiles, hypersonic or otherwise, can take non-direct routes, take avoiding action, be retasked en-route etc.

ICBMs on the other hand are pretty much fixed on course shortly after launch, and very very predictable once out of the boost phase - this is why huge strides have been made in terms of ABM systems in recent years, ICBMs are no longer untouchable because the technology to intercept them has advanced sufficiently.
 
BigBazza
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:57 pm

I read that the purpose of the Chinese hypersonic missile was the ability to have it circumnavigate the globe and basically approach its target from any direction, example is the US has its missile defence set up for incoming from the north east and west. But with the new Chinese hypersonic missile, it enables them to send a warhead that would approach from the south pole, for which there currently are no defence missiles setup. Whether this is correct, I'm no expert.
 
737307
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:28 pm

What is the point of it all? In the end it will all lead to Mutually Assured Destruction anyway.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:57 pm

The US threatened to nuke China in the Korean war. The Chinese have long memories. IF they do something bad, i.e. invade Taiwan, they want the US to think twice about threatening the use of nukes. So yes - MAD works again.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:37 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
The US threatened to nuke China in the Korean war. The Chinese have long memories. IF they do something bad, i.e. invade Taiwan, they want the US to think twice about threatening the use of nukes. So yes - MAD works again.

And there was a time the USA and other nuclear nations of the world tested nuclear bombs in the open air and skies. But that time is past. And so is MAD in general (still I guess it is possible but it is soo much more unlikely now as to be a relative non-issue nowadays as a global threat).

No the "destruction" of today would more likely be as we have mentioned: If China invades Taiwan it will be come an international trading pariah and weaken slowly from lack of imports and exports. Sure Russia is likely to trade with them still (and probably India in some way), but they become someones "bitch" then, beholden to that other country and I do not see them ever allowing that.

Tugg
 
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par13del
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:45 pm

Tugger wrote:
No the "destruction" of today would more likely be as we have mentioned: If China invades Taiwan it will be come an international trading pariah and weaken slowly from lack of imports and exports.
Tugg

I really do not see that happening, the trading pariah part, if I look at Russia, Crimea / Ukraine and the current crisis in Europe with natural gas, my belief is that other than token protestations and meaningless sanctions which do not affect major trade, nothing will happen. Example, a ban on the export of luxury vehicles to China while allowing electric vehicles to protect the climate.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:34 am

Tugger wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
The US threatened to nuke China in the Korean war. The Chinese have long memories. IF they do something bad, i.e. invade Taiwan, they want the US to think twice about threatening the use of nukes. So yes - MAD works again.

And there was a time the USA and other nuclear nations of the world tested nuclear bombs in the open air and skies. But that time is past. And so is MAD in general (still I guess it is possible but it is soo much more unlikely now as to be a relative non-issue nowadays as a global threat).

No the "destruction" of today would more likely be as we have mentioned: If China invades Taiwan it will be come an international trading pariah and weaken slowly from lack of imports and exports. Sure Russia is likely to trade with them still (and probably India in some way), but they become someones "bitch" then, beholden to that other country and I do not see them ever allowing that.

Tugg


Except it would take the world many many years to set up production of all the parts and items made in China. I don’t think it’s as clear cut as you make it out to be.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:06 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
The US threatened to nuke China in the Korean war. The Chinese have long memories. IF they do something bad, i.e. invade Taiwan, they want the US to think twice about threatening the use of nukes. So yes - MAD works again.

And there was a time the USA and other nuclear nations of the world tested nuclear bombs in the open air and skies. But that time is past. And so is MAD in general (still I guess it is possible but it is soo much more unlikely now as to be a relative non-issue nowadays as a global threat).

No the "destruction" of today would more likely be as we have mentioned: If China invades Taiwan it will be come an international trading pariah and weaken slowly from lack of imports and exports. Sure Russia is likely to trade with them still (and probably India in some way), but they become someones "bitch" then, beholden to that other country and I do not see them ever allowing that.

Tugg


Except it would take the world many many years to set up production of all the parts and items made in China. I don’t think it’s as clear cut as you make it out to be.

Ehh,... I don't think those "years" are all that big a deal. They can't be. Because in no way shape or form can an invasion of Taiwan be tolerated. Which is the only case we are discussing here ATM. Clear cut isn't the thing per se, it is the required response to something that makes it clear or not. But truly, China would feel the impact and I don't think they are willing to risk that.

Tugg
 
blackrock
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:36 am

Taiwan is probably just rethoric, I do not think they will dare to do anything.

About the launch of this missile. I do not understand where landed this missile. I would like to understand after crossing South Pole and moving again North, where did it land?
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:42 am

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
And there was a time the USA and other nuclear nations of the world tested nuclear bombs in the open air and skies. But that time is past. And so is MAD in general (still I guess it is possible but it is soo much more unlikely now as to be a relative non-issue nowadays as a global threat).

No the "destruction" of today would more likely be as we have mentioned: If China invades Taiwan it will be come an international trading pariah and weaken slowly from lack of imports and exports. Sure Russia is likely to trade with them still (and probably India in some way), but they become someones "bitch" then, beholden to that other country and I do not see them ever allowing that.

Tugg


Except it would take the world many many years to set up production of all the parts and items made in China. I don’t think it’s as clear cut as you make it out to be.

Ehh,... I don't think those "years" are all that big a deal. They can't be. Because in no way shape or form can an invasion of Taiwan be tolerated. Which is the only case we are discussing here ATM. Clear cut isn't the thing per se, it is the required response to something that makes it clear or not. But truly, China would feel the impact and I don't think they are willing to risk that.

Tugg


So you would be happy to pay more for everything just because China annex’s Taiwan? Would you also be happy for US servicemen to die in the defence of Taiwan?
 
pune
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:57 am

BigBazza wrote:
I read that the purpose of the Chinese hypersonic missile was the ability to have it circumnavigate the globe and basically approach its target from any direction, example is the US has its missile defence set up for incoming from the north east and west. But with the new Chinese hypersonic missile, it enables them to send a warhead that would approach from the south pole, for which there currently are no defence missiles setup. Whether this is correct, I'm no expert.


On the money, this was what was shared by an Indian defence expert, exactly on the same lines -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqMbk3WNhmQ
 
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Tugger
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:12 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Ehh,... I don't think those "years" are all that big a deal. They can't be. Because in no way shape or form can an invasion of Taiwan be tolerated. Which is the only case we are discussing here ATM. Clear cut isn't the thing per se, it is the required response to something that makes it clear or not. But truly, China would feel the impact and I don't think they are willing to risk that.

Tugg


So you would be happy to pay more for everything just because China annex’s Taiwan? Would you also be happy for US servicemen to die in the defence of Taiwan?

No. I would not be "happy". . If you are valueless and stateless you might differently.

So "Happy" no, but "Willing to accept", Yes. Don't want or desire it but there must be a strong response. Otherwise it will happen and happen again elsewhere and we reyurn to the early 1900's with global level conflicts occurring.

Your question would be better directed to China.

That is the simplest answer.in can give. But I do believe that one must be willing to "put your money where your mouth is". However, I am A.) not in the military ; B.) doing fine so extra cost won't screw me over ; C.) I can go 5 years (at least) between phones and new washing machines ; and D.) the I don't dictate US response and someone else gets to say how the US will aid Taiwan.

Tugg
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Did China test a nuclear-capable hypersonic missile?

Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:18 pm

All kidding aside - you can buy washers and dryers made in the USA. Not sure where the electronics are from but I always buy the simplest Maytag that does the job so it's has no LED displays.

You can still get US made HVAC units too.

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