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LCDFlight
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:58 pm

Aesma wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
I find it 98% probable that neither Alec Baldwin, nor the director of photography, nor the director, had the foggiest clue about gun safety. And yet, there they were, playing with a dangerous weapon like idiots.

Baldwin is a COMPLETE idiot, which is why he was so good at playing Trump.


Why should they know about gun safety ? It's not their job, and if it's not their hobby, then no reason to know or care.


It’s not their job?! Please tell us how this woman died. Wasn’t she doing her gun-related job? How did it turn out? Wasn’t Alec Baldwin a man holding a gun as part of his job? How did it go?
 
THS214
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:03 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

I get that this is an airliner website so I am not astonished people do not know much about what happens on a set. Logical. But having the ability to directly compare one career to another, I can see that safety is typically a much greater concern on set than what you see in aviation. The fact that these things almost never happen should by itself make that clear, but we can rest assured that this will be seen as a big deal by the people who matter in this business.


On this website there are a lot on people that barely touches aviation or not at all. All good with that as they have an interest. On this Non-Aviation many have great knowledge beyond aviation. How many hours (all) are spend at making movies and how many hours (all) in an airplane?

So when was the last time an accidental shooting happened in an airliner?
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:24 pm

If there was scene involving being suspended would we expect mr Baldwin to do sling angle calculations or should he trust the expert?

If there was a scene involving a car chase would we expect mr Baldwin to inspect the braking system or would you expect a serviceable system?

When climbing a set of stairs on a set should mr Baldwin be expected to verify the loading calculations to ensure is is load bearing?

When working on a shoot should the director calculate the set fire suppression system is suitable?

When eating food as part of a shoot should the actors be trained in food safety?

Fred


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THS214
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:44 pm

Now its clear what happened so the question on why. Baldwin was not to shoot (based on the first take) so what made the gun to fire when not intended (on the second take)? Had his finger to shoot or that gun fired on itself (can happen) A lot of questions, no answers.

A lot of people were let go and new hired just before. Once the armorer is interrogated we might get so facts. Now everything is pure speculations.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:53 pm

Aesma wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Hand me an open gun and verify its status, hand me closed one, be it a derringer or a howitzer, I’m gonna instinctively open it and check. What are they these amateurs?


You're in the military.

He's an actor.


Actually, I was in the military but I learned gun safety at the tender age of about 6.

It should be obvious that a gun is dangerous, that pulling the trigger will make it fire, if it’s loaded, and the outcome will be harmful to what it’s pointed at. There is ZERO, NADA excuse to pull the trigger with gun pointed at someone not in the scene AFTER ensuring it’s condition. Why did he pull the trigger with pointed er the cinematographer? There is no reason to do so
 
cairns
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:18 pm

The rules of gun safety are obvious, well known and should be practiced by anyone who handles one. BTW even in Hollywood they don't put guns directly at a person- that was instituted after the Brandon Lee accident. This incident was tragic and stupid. He wasn't even pointing the gun at another actor.

I learned at the age of six too. With my first BB gun. Any actor handling one should have been well briefed and I strongly suspect Alec knew the rules.

Saying he's an actor is a pitiful excuse.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:46 pm

You're all talking about guns as in the weapons designed to kill someone. But this is a movie set, where nothing is at it seems. For all we know Baldwin might have thought the gun wasn't a real one.

As flipdewaf suggested plenty of dangerous things are present on a movie set, and accidents happen all the time. Actors are often the victims of such accidents.

I really don't know how it works, in my field of work you're supposed to analyze the potential dangers before doing a job, however if it's something that lasts days on end, I can understand how complacency kicks in. But we have very few safety officers. A movie set should have dedicated people doing only that.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:55 pm

Aesma wrote:
You're all talking about guns as in the weapons designed to kill someone. But this is a movie set, where nothing is at it seems. For all we know Baldwin might have thought the gun wasn't a real one.

As flipdewaf suggested plenty of dangerous things are present on a movie set, and accidents happen all the time. Actors are often the victims of such accidents.

I really don't know how it works, in my field of work you're supposed to analyze the potential dangers before doing a job, however if it's something that lasts days on end, I can understand how complacency kicks in. But we have very few safety officers. A movie set should have dedicated people doing only that.


“Nothing as it seems”? I think there are some people at the set who would disagree with you. No, I don’t expect actors to be knowledgeable and inspect stairs, brakes, angles during takes, but holding a gun is pretty basic and it’s effects are known hazards. Pointing a gun at somebody and knowingly pulling the trigger is dangerous and stupid, even if you know the gun is empty, just not done. There was no reason for the gun to be pointed at people and pulling the trigger. I’ve had to point in the general direction of someone for sighting purposes. The gun is displayed as empty; the safety is ON once closed, finger off trigger, NEVER contemplated pulling the trigger.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:55 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aesma wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Hand me an open gun and verify its status, hand me closed one, be it a derringer or a howitzer, I’m gonna instinctively open it and check. What are they these amateurs?


You're in the military.

He's an actor.


Actually, I was in the military but I learned gun safety at the tender age of about 6.

It should be obvious that a gun is dangerous, that pulling the trigger will make it fire, if it’s loaded, and the outcome will be harmful to what it’s pointed at. There is ZERO, NADA excuse to pull the trigger with gun pointed at someone not in the scene AFTER ensuring it’s condition. Why did he pull the trigger with pointed er the cinematographer? There is no reason to do so

Do you think that all actors should carry a multimeter to check the electrical safety of any switches they need to use during filming? I mean it’s pretty obvious that electricity is dangerous right?

Fred


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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:58 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aesma wrote:

You're in the military.

He's an actor.


Actually, I was in the military but I learned gun safety at the tender age of about 6.

It should be obvious that a gun is dangerous, that pulling the trigger will make it fire, if it’s loaded, and the outcome will be harmful to what it’s pointed at. There is ZERO, NADA excuse to pull the trigger with gun pointed at someone not in the scene AFTER ensuring it’s condition. Why did he pull the trigger with pointed er the cinematographer? There is no reason to do so

Do you think that all actors should carry a multimeter to check the electrical safety of any switches they need to use during filming? I mean it’s pretty obvious that electricity is dangerous right?

Fred


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That’s a irrelevant argument. You don’t know check your power switches at home do you? If I handed you a gun, I’d expect you to confirm if it’s loaded. If I go to a gun store, as I did yesterday, I was handed an open shotgun. Salesman confirmed it was empty, I confirmed it was empty before closing. A firearm is vastly different, obviously dangerous; not remotely comparable to a light switch. Try a smarter argument, please.
 
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T18
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:00 pm

Aesma wrote:
You're all talking about guns as in the weapons designed to kill someone. But this is a movie set, where nothing is at it seems. For all we know Baldwin might have thought the gun wasn't a real one.

As flipdewaf suggested plenty of dangerous things are present on a movie set, and accidents happen all the time. Actors are often the victims of such accidents.

I really don't know how it works, in my field of work you're supposed to analyze the potential dangers before doing a job, however if it's something that lasts days on end, I can understand how complacency kicks in. But we have very few safety officers. A movie set should have dedicated people doing only that.


According to USA Today (link below) Ballwin was told by the A.D. that it was a "Cold Gun" when it was handed to him. I suspect following this set may take further steps to ensure that any prop weapon is in fact cold or inert before handling. Possibly including training the actors to examine the item themselves as a final link, sounds like this set anyway had way too few slices of swiss in place allowing an error to cascade to tragedy with little resistance.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertai ... 155269001/
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:08 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Actually, I was in the military but I learned gun safety at the tender age of about 6.

It should be obvious that a gun is dangerous, that pulling the trigger will make it fire, if it’s loaded, and the outcome will be harmful to what it’s pointed at. There is ZERO, NADA excuse to pull the trigger with gun pointed at someone not in the scene AFTER ensuring it’s condition. Why did he pull the trigger with pointed er the cinematographer? There is no reason to do so

Do you think that all actors should carry a multimeter to check the electrical safety of any switches they need to use during filming? I mean it’s pretty obvious that electricity is dangerous right?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That’s a irrelevant argument. You don’t know check your power switches at home do you? If I handed you a gun, I’d expect you to confirm if it’s loaded. If I go to a gun store, as I did yesterday, I was handed an open shotgun. Salesman confirmed it was empty, I confirmed it was empty before closing. A firearm is vastly different, obviously dangerous; not remotely comparable to a light switch. Try a smarter argument, please.

It is indeed curious isn’t it. I wonder how something as inherently dangerous as electricity and it’s complex system design, installation and maintenance could become so safe so as to not need special training dished out by enthusiasts to be used safely, some mysteries can never be solved I guess.

Oh well thoughts and prayers.

Fred


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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:31 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Do you think that all actors should carry a multimeter to check the electrical safety of any switches they need to use during filming? I mean it’s pretty obvious that electricity is dangerous right?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That’s a irrelevant argument. You don’t know check your power switches at home do you? If I handed you a gun, I’d expect you to confirm if it’s loaded. If I go to a gun store, as I did yesterday, I was handed an open shotgun. Salesman confirmed it was empty, I confirmed it was empty before closing. A firearm is vastly different, obviously dangerous; not remotely comparable to a light switch. Try a smarter argument, please.

It is indeed curious isn’t it. I wonder how something as inherently dangerous as electricity and it’s complex system design, installation and maintenance could become so safe so as to not need special training dished out by enthusiasts to be used safely, some mysteries can never be solved I guess.

Oh well thoughts and prayers.

Fred


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There’s no mystery—guns fundamental purpose is to be dangerous, electricity in house or office is not. We don’t kill people, animals or targets with our light switches. A safe gun would defeat its purpose.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:55 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

That’s a irrelevant argument. You don’t know check your power switches at home do you? If I handed you a gun, I’d expect you to confirm if it’s loaded. If I go to a gun store, as I did yesterday, I was handed an open shotgun. Salesman confirmed it was empty, I confirmed it was empty before closing. A firearm is vastly different, obviously dangerous; not remotely comparable to a light switch. Try a smarter argument, please.

It is indeed curious isn’t it. I wonder how something as inherently dangerous as electricity and it’s complex system design, installation and maintenance could become so safe so as to not need special training dished out by enthusiasts to be used safely, some mysteries can never be solved I guess.

Oh well thoughts and prayers.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


There’s no mystery—guns fundamental purpose is to be dangerous, electricity in house or office is not. We don’t kill people, animals or targets with our light switches. A safe gun would defeat its purpose.

Fundamental purpose is to be dangerous but all that’s needed is for everyone to behave in a way that enthusiasts find obvious? It would be hilarious if it weren’t people dying!

Fred


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lightsaber
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:00 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Aesma wrote:
You're in the military.

He's an actor.


An actor that has handled firearms, prop or not, in the past. I have to agree with Galaxy here…hand me a firearm, and I’m going to check it to determine its condition. Anyone who handles a firearm, prop or not, should have at least a passing familiarity with rudimentary gun safety.

And why would someone call out “cold gun” without checking it themselves? Absent some criminal motive, complacency, that’s why. Complacency has killed more people than we can count.

I agree. I literally cannot stop myself from checking any gun handed to me as that is a habit drilled into me by my mom.

However, no one should shout "cold gun" without verifying themselves right then. My friends know guns, but they never take offense to a check. I've seen one gun verified by six different people as they looked at the new purchase.

To others:
First step of gun safety is treat all guns as loaded.
You verify yourself. Always.
If the gun leaves your possession, you check again.

This was sad. The reality is the assistant director should have checked. It isn't hard to tell between a primer and no primer.

Lightsaber
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:04 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
It is indeed curious isn’t it. I wonder how something as inherently dangerous as electricity and it’s complex system design, installation and maintenance could become so safe so as to not need special training dished out by enthusiasts to be used safely, some mysteries can never be solved I guess.

Oh well thoughts and prayers.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


There’s no mystery—guns fundamental purpose is to be dangerous, electricity in house or office is not. We don’t kill people, animals or targets with our light switches. A safe gun would defeat its purpose.

Fundamental purpose is to be dangerous but all that’s needed is for everyone to behave in a way that enthusiasts find obvious? It would be hilarious if it weren’t people dying!

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Funny thing—it is simple and obvious—be positive of it’s load status, don’t point at anything you’re not willing to destroy, don’t pull the trigger unless you’re positive of what will happen when you do so. Alec did a Grade A stupid thing, pulled the trigger while pointing the gun at a person.

If someone handed YOU a firearm, would you immediately point at your loved one and pull the trigger to see what would happen? Or, would ask for help, confirm it’s empty, then point at them and pull the trigger just laughs. I hope the answer to either is blindingly obvious to a any sentient person. That leaves out Baldwin, doesn’t it.
 
johns624
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:31 pm

I find it humorous that the antigunners are defending Baldwin saying he didn't know any better and the progunners are saying he should've. THS214--guns just don't go off by themselves. The trigger has to be pulled. With this being an old western, in most probability, this was a single action revolver. Not only does the trigger have to be pulled, but the hammer has to be manually cocked first. The main question is--why was there live ammo on a movie set?
 
stratosphere
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:41 pm

As much as I can't stand Alec Baldwin or any of the Baldwins I feel for him. I had a different kind of accident with a firearm my neighbor had given me a loaded 2 shot Derringer pistol after I had gotten robbed at gunpoint in front of my house . I was doing construction in my kitchen and I put the gun on top of a box I was carrying in the house the gun fell off and hit the floor and landed on the hammer and fired I thought it had fired into the baseboard but it actually bounced when it went off and went thru my bedroom wall and over the head of the girlfriend I had at the time who was sleeping. I totally shook for days after that happened wondering what if . I know me personally I could have never lived with myself if I had killed her. Negligence yes on someone's part in my case I was also negligent I wouldn't want to be in his shoes having to live with that. I got rid of that gun .
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:52 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

There’s no mystery—guns fundamental purpose is to be dangerous, electricity in house or office is not. We don’t kill people, animals or targets with our light switches. A safe gun would defeat its purpose.

Fundamental purpose is to be dangerous but all that’s needed is for everyone to behave in a way that enthusiasts find obvious? It would be hilarious if it weren’t people dying!

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Funny thing—it is simple and obvious—be positive of it’s load status, don’t point at anything you’re not willing to destroy, don’t pull the trigger unless you’re positive of what will happen when you do so. Alec did a Grade A stupid thing, pulled the trigger while pointing the gun at a person.

If someone handed YOU a firearm, would you immediately point at your loved one and pull the trigger to see what would happen? Or, would ask for help, confirm it’s empty, then point at them and pull the trigger just laughs. I hope the answer to either is blindingly obvious to a any sentient person. That leaves out Baldwin, doesn’t it.

I totally agree those are the things to do but If it’s so simple and obvious then why wasn’t it done?

Should we just tell people it’s obvious how to wire a film set because an enthusiast knows and therefore anyone should also know and leave it at that?

Should the film sets (or anyone for that matter) rely on what is obvious to an enthusiast of a particular subject to maintain safety or should there be other mechanisms?

Fred


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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:05 pm

No, of course not. I don’t try to wire new outlets in my house for a reason—I don’t know how to do so and comply with code. If I did wire something and burn the house, I have only myself to blame and accept the consequences. Protecting people from their own folly produces a society of idiots, so far, we’re on track.

I’d guess Mr Baldwin is a pretty smart man, so he shouldn’t be learning the hard way, plenty of fools in the past have shown us how to be safe. They’ve been a horrible, but ignored, warning.

NYT is reporting set workers have said there were two previous “accidental discharges” this month. As Baldwin is the co-producer, I’m guessing safety wasn’t a priority and he’s not paying attention. In a lifetime around guns, precisely one accidental discharge, a friend took out a skylight 40+ years ago. Very loud downstairs.
 
cairns
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:10 pm

How ridiculous. You don't point a power switch at someone and kill them. What's next? A vacuum cleaner?

And I think the main question is why he was pointing the gun at the director and not another actor while filming a scene. Playing around perhaps?
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:20 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, of course not. I don’t try to wire new outlets in my house for a reason—I don’t know how to do so and comply with code. If I did wire something and burn the house, I have only myself to blame and accept the consequences.


So you don’t check the wiring of the contractor before using it even when it’s simple and obvious?

Fred


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johns624
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:25 pm

Another thing not addressed is that Baldwin was the producer. It seems like many things were lax on the set. Wouldn't he be the one to be making sure that things were being done correctly?
 
FGITD
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:36 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, of course not. I don’t try to wire new outlets in my house for a reason—I don’t know how to do so and comply with code. If I did wire something and burn the house, I have only myself to blame and accept the consequences. Protecting people from their own folly produces a society of idiots, so far, we’re on track.


As a pilot in the Air Force, did you personally inspect every load placed into your aircraft, every last minute fix that mechanics made, etc?

Overall…I agree that Baldwin bears blame, but as a producer and not an actor that fired a gun. It’s the way it goes…when you’re the boss, you’re the one taking the blame. Specifically when there apparently were some lapses in safety that should have been addressed.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:12 am

FGITD wrote:
As a pilot in the Air Force, did you personally inspect every load placed into your aircraft, every last minute fix that mechanics made, etc?


Mechanics and pilots have a relationship that’s built on trust…and verification. There’s a whole lot of trust built into that signature in the book, but even with that, flight crews do their own checks…and yes, sometimes I’ve seen a pilot check something not on the checklist, yet informed by the logbook. It happens, it depends on that particular pilot/mechanic/organization relationship.

The point: when I hand an aircraft to a pilot I give him a logbook that has an airworthiness release signed. I don’t yell “green aircraft” and walk away.

Did the prop dude sign a piece of paper that confirmed a “cold gun” before handing it to Baldwin?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:20 am

FGITD wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, of course not. I don’t try to wire new outlets in my house for a reason—I don’t know how to do so and comply with code. If I did wire something and burn the house, I have only myself to blame and accept the consequences. Protecting people from their own folly produces a society of idiots, so far, we’re on track.


As a pilot in the Air Force, did you personally inspect every load placed into your aircraft, every last minute fix that mechanics made, etc?

Overall…I agree that Baldwin bears blame, but as a producer and not an actor that fired a gun. It’s the way it goes…when you’re the boss, you’re the one taking the blame. Specifically when there apparently were some lapses in safety that should have been addressed.


No, but I signed the Form F and checked it for accuracy.

Does anyone seriously believe it is safe to point a gun at an individual and pull the trigger, in a non-combat or self-defense, situation? I cannot posters think that kind of action is safe or, even, polite. I wouldn’t do it under ANY circumstances even if I was absolutely positive the gun was empty. Somebody did that to me, if I didn’t shoot back, they would forever be untrustworthy and simply out of my life. I cannot understand that’s excusable behavior.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:20 am

flipdewaf wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, of course not. I don’t try to wire new outlets in my house for a reason—I don’t know how to do so and comply with code. If I did wire something and burn the house, I have only myself to blame and accept the consequences.


So you don’t check the wiring of the contractor before using it even when it’s simple and obvious?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Do you? Checking a firearm is empty is so simple there’s no excuse not to do so.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:24 am

cairns wrote:
And I think the main question is why he was pointing the gun at the director and not another actor while filming a scene. Playing around perhaps?


This demonstrates zero knowledge of what happens on a film set. There are many action shots filmed without an opposing actor in frame. In that case the actor will be pointing a gun either directly at a camera or off-center, sometimes with/without plexiglass shielding. In the case of at a camera, the DP and AD would normally be there unless the camera was being operated remotely. For the actor it can be anywhere between 15 minutes to a half hour of waiting to get everything set for a such a shot to get 10 seconds of footage. In more complex scenes, much more.

Not a western, but this gives an idea of the work required just to get a few seconds of footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn-B1F_0jBw
 
THS214
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:45 am

johns624 wrote:
I find it humorous that the antigunners are defending Baldwin saying he didn't know any better and the progunners are saying he should've. THS214--guns just don't go off by themselves. The trigger has to be pulled. With this being an old western, in most probability, this was a single action revolver. Not only does the trigger have to be pulled, but the hammer has to be manually cocked first. The main question is--why was there live ammo on a movie set?


Guns can and do go off without pulling the trigger for many reasons. There are one and two action revolvers. We should not think that it was a single action revolver. Lets keep our options open. Maybe this revolver was not authentic from the age. Maybe it was a gun that used the hammer by pulling the trigger. Maybe the hammer was put in the shoot position for authenticity. Or maybe something else. That gun fired so all other theories go out the window. Live ammo on the set is one question, but also why it fired, why the revolver was aimed at people etc.

What I don't understand is that those people hit were behind a monitor not behind the camera. If that was the preferred angle to aim the gun for picture, why wasn't the monitor on the other side of the camera. Oh well, we will get the answers later.
 
THS214
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:49 am

cairns wrote:
How ridiculous. You don't point a power switch at someone and kill them. What's next? A vacuum cleaner?

And I think the main question is why he was pointing the gun at the director and not another actor while filming a scene. Playing around perhaps?


Or maybe that scene didn't require another actor?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:36 am

THS214 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I find it humorous that the antigunners are defending Baldwin saying he didn't know any better and the progunners are saying he should've. THS214--guns just don't go off by themselves. The trigger has to be pulled. With this being an old western, in most probability, this was a single action revolver. Not only does the trigger have to be pulled, but the hammer has to be manually cocked first. The main question is--why was there live ammo on a movie set?


Guns can and do go off without pulling the trigger for many reasons. There are one and two action revolvers. We should not think that it was a single action revolver. Lets keep our options open. Maybe this revolver was not authentic from the age. Maybe it was a gun that used the hammer by pulling the trigger. Maybe the hammer was put in the shoot position for authenticity. Or maybe something else. That gun fired so all other theories go out the window. Live ammo on the set is one question, but also why it fired, why the revolver was aimed at people etc.

What I don't understand is that those people hit were behind a monitor not behind the camera. If that was the preferred angle to aim the gun for picture, why wasn't the monitor on the other side of the camera. Oh well, we will get the answers later.


Can you cite some facts where properly functioning guns fire without the trigger releasing the firing pin? I’d like to hear one. Second, assuming the movie is trying to be period correct, a single-action revolver is about 95% the likely one in question.
 
johns624
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:46 am

THS214 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I find it humorous that the antigunners are defending Baldwin saying he didn't know any better and the progunners are saying he should've. THS214--guns just don't go off by themselves. The trigger has to be pulled. With this being an old western, in most probability, this was a single action revolver. Not only does the trigger have to be pulled, but the hammer has to be manually cocked first. The main question is--why was there live ammo on a movie set?


Guns can and do go off without pulling the trigger for many reasons. There are one and two action revolvers. We should not think that it was a single action revolver. Lets keep our options open. Maybe this revolver was not authentic from the age. Maybe it was a gun that used the hammer by pulling the trigger. Maybe the hammer was put in the shoot position for authenticity. Or maybe something else. That gun fired so all other theories go out the window. Live ammo on the set is one question, but also why it fired, why the revolver was aimed at people etc.

What I don't understand is that those people hit were behind a monitor not behind the camera. If that was the preferred angle to aim the gun for picture, why wasn't the monitor on the other side of the camera. Oh well, we will get the answers later.
It's obvious that you have little or no real world handgun experience by your posts. I stand with what I said. The old "it went off by itself" is an excuse used by people who were doing things that they shouldn't have been.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:00 am

The armorer involved apparently told a podcast last month that she was experiencing imposter syndrome due to inexperience but was ‘trained up’ by her famous armorer father.

https://www.insider.com/rust-shooting-a ... ob-2021-10

Just another argument against nepotism in industries like this one where personal connections are huge in hiring.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:13 am

johns624 wrote:
THS214 wrote:
What I don't understand is that those people hit were behind a monitor not behind the camera. If that was the preferred angle to aim the gun for picture, why wasn't the monitor on the other side of the camera. Oh well, we will get the answers later.
It's obvious that you have little or no real world handgun experience by your posts. I stand with what I said. The old "it went off by itself" is an excuse used by people who were doing things that they shouldn't have been.


Having zero understanding of anything that happens on a film set has not stopped any of our resident gun people from chiming in with opinions of varying levels of hilarity, so it is doubtful anyone is really seeing an objection to getting guns 'wrong' is either...


Aaron747 wrote:
The armorer involved apparently told a podcast last month that she was experiencing imposter syndrome due to inexperience but was ‘trained up’ by her famous armorer father.

https://www.insider.com/rust-shooting-a ... ob-2021-10

Just another argument against nepotism in industries like this one where personal connections are huge in hiring.


This is an actually fairly outdated sentiment. Nepotism happens and should be discouraged, but Aviation, by way of example, is downright rife with it compared to the modern film industries.

But I do agree that she is the most likely point of failure here and if she felt overwhelmed by the task, she should not have been there.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:22 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
johns624 wrote:
THS214 wrote:
What I don't understand is that those people hit were behind a monitor not behind the camera. If that was the preferred angle to aim the gun for picture, why wasn't the monitor on the other side of the camera. Oh well, we will get the answers later.
It's obvious that you have little or no real world handgun experience by your posts. I stand with what I said. The old "it went off by itself" is an excuse used by people who were doing things that they shouldn't have been.


Having zero understanding of anything that happens on a film set has not stopped any of our resident gun people from chiming in with opinions of varying levels of hilarity, so it is doubtful anyone is really seeing an objection to getting guns 'wrong' is either...


Aaron747 wrote:
The armorer involved apparently told a podcast last month that she was experiencing imposter syndrome due to inexperience but was ‘trained up’ by her famous armorer father.

https://www.insider.com/rust-shooting-a ... ob-2021-10

Just another argument against nepotism in industries like this one where personal connections are huge in hiring.


This is an actually fairly outdated sentiment. Nepotism happens and should be discouraged, but Aviation, by way of example, is downright rife with it compared to the modern film industries.

But I do agree that she is the most likely point of failure here and if she felt overwhelmed by the task, she should not have been there.


I don’t know anything about a film set, but those of us who are trained and experienced in handling firearms do know something about that. And, handling firearms safely has zero to do with the circumstances. The rules for safety are standardized, easy to understand and universal based on centuries of experience. There aren’t any differences in the field, in combat or at a range.

You do NOT point any firearm at a person and pull the trigger unless you intend to kill them. So me an exception in filming and I’m happy to listen. In the instant case, one actor pointed the gun at a person irrelevant to the scene being filmed and pulled the trigger. The End. Oh, it happened twice before on this set recently. Some Wespons Grade stupidity right there.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:34 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
In the instant case, one actor pointed the gun at a person irrelevant to the scene being filmed and pulled the trigger. The End.


If you don't know anything about a film set, how can it be claimed persons were irrelevant to the scene being filmed? :scratchchin:
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:37 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
This is an actually fairly outdated sentiment. Nepotism happens and should be discouraged, but Aviation, by way of example, is downright rife with it compared to the modern film industries.

But I do agree that she is the most likely point of failure here and if she felt overwhelmed by the task, she should not have been there.


It depends on the size of the studio/organization. The folks I know in the industry routinely complain about how it's still an issue - they want to hire so-and-so but someone upstairs magically produces a friend's kid or a famous person's 'favorite' for that position, and presto.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:53 am

Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
In the instant case, one actor pointed the gun at a person irrelevant to the scene being filmed and pulled the trigger. The End.


If you don't know anything about a film set, how can it be claimed persons were irrelevant to the scene being filmed? :scratchchin:


Perhaps, because I’d expect the cinematographer is behind the camera, not being part of the scene being filmed, perhaps because I’m guessing directors, who aren’t actors, aren’t in the scene.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:02 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
In the instant case, one actor pointed the gun at a person irrelevant to the scene being filmed and pulled the trigger. The End.


If you don't know anything about a film set, how can it be claimed persons were irrelevant to the scene being filmed? :scratchchin:


Perhaps, because I’d expect the cinematographer is behind the camera, not being part of the scene being filmed, perhaps because I’m guessing directors, who aren’t actors, aren’t in the scene.


See reply 78.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:06 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You do NOT point any firearm at a person and pull the trigger unless you intend to kill them.


Literally no one has said otherwise. The issue is obviously a a failure upstream, so what is with the imaginary gatekeeping?

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
So me an exception in filming and I’m happy to listen.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Perhaps, because I’d expect the cinematographer is behind the camera, not being part of the scene being filmed, perhaps because I’m guessing directors, who aren’t actors, aren’t in the scene.


Already explained sufficiently —in a few postings— up thread. Did you not take the time to read those?

Aaron747 wrote:
It depends on the size of the studio/organization. The folks I know in the industry routinely complain about how it's still an issue - they want to hire so-and-so but someone upstairs magically produces a friend's kid or a famous person's 'favorite' for that position, and presto.


People complain about things in every industry, so it is hard to get a good barometer on that. IME, at the larger houses I have worked, HR guidelines are followed pretty closely on these matters and as well, Union/Guild guidelines also seem to matter more than anything else. Make enemies there and it does not matter who your father is.

Really most of what I have actually seen that would qualify as true nepotism is more in securing things like good Agents/Managers. Those indeed are largely unregulated in such things.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:41 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You do NOT point any firearm at a person and pull the trigger unless you intend to kill them.


Literally no one has said otherwise. The issue is obviously a a failure upstream, so what is with the imaginary gatekeeping?


Standard training on firearms is every person handling the firearm checks the status. I've literally seen a brand new firearm checked by six people as the habit becomes so strong.

I do not expect an actor to know how. I do expect everyone else upstream who handles the firearm to know how.

Pulling a trigger is a deliberate action and should be avoided when pointing a firearm at a person. I get filming it will be needed for certain shots, but an artistic director and director in the line of fire? That is layers of mistakes. A mistake that cost one life.

Serious question, how is the director?

Lightsaber
 
Redd
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:44 am

Can anyone answer why there would be live rounds on set, ever?!? I was under the impression that only blanks are used.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:14 am

Aesma wrote:
Semantics aside, and even if you want/need the effect of a real gun on film, I'm sure prop guns could be manufactured/modified so it's impossible to put a complete cartridge in them.

About unions, I thought they were bad, DIRECTFLT ? Isn't there some kind of strike action going on all over Hollywood and not just this specific movie ?


Define cartridge please.

As for Unions, they can be good, and they can be bad, when comes to the worker.

My father worked under a Union as a commercial airline pilot. I never heard him complain about the union.
 
art
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:33 am

i don't see why anyone with no knowledge of guns (if that was the case) should not rely on someone with expertise, someone responsible for gun safety. If they say a gun is safe that should be sufficient to treat the gun as being safe in my opinion. It is reported that the actor checked with the 'safety officer' that it it was a 'cold gun' so I think the actor acted responsibly. How it came to be pointed at the victims is a different matter to me.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:31 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, of course not. I don’t try to wire new outlets in my house for a reason—I don’t know how to do so and comply with code. If I did wire something and burn the house, I have only myself to blame and accept the consequences.


So you don’t check the wiring of the contractor before using it even when it’s simple and obvious?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Do you? Checking a firearm is empty is so simple there’s no excuse not to do so.

No, earth checks are as easy as checking a firearm is empty yet I don’t do it. Again curiouser and curiouser. Arguably electrical checks are easier due to standardisation levels whereas guns are subtly different to one another.

I knew how to check my 410, my .22rifle my lp10 and my Feinwerkbau but hand me an ar15 and I’d probably struggle. Interestingly only 2 of my guns are designed to kill, go figure!

I still find it strange that we think the thing that’s designed to kill should be controlled by a mechanisms lower on the hierarchy of safety controls than something that is equally as dangerous. and not only lower but we just assume they are in place because enthusiasts know it.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:32 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
The armorer involved apparently told a podcast last month that she was experiencing imposter syndrome due to inexperience but was ‘trained up’ by her famous armorer father.

https://www.insider.com/rust-shooting-a ... ob-2021-10

Just another argument against nepotism in industries like this one where personal connections are huge in hiring.


Others were multiple huge failures here. The armorer obviously didn’t do her job. And Alec Baldwin pointed a weapon at somebody and pulled the trigger. Both epically failed in their profession. I see it more like a mechanic and a pilot who both took shortcuts out of arrogance.
 
cairns
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:26 pm

If the actor had acted responsibly no one would be dead or in the hospital. If the producer had acted responsibly no one would be dead or in the hospital either. Alec was both. He better lawyer up.
 
johns624
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:39 pm

It's just like the Swiss cheese effect in airplane crashes...
 
THS214
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:29 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
THS214 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I find it humorous that the antigunners are defending Baldwin saying he didn't know any better and the progunners are saying he should've. THS214--guns just don't go off by themselves. The trigger has to be pulled. With this being an old western, in most probability, this was a single action revolver. Not only does the trigger have to be pulled, but the hammer has to be manually cocked first. The main question is--why was there live ammo on a movie set?


Guns can and do go off without pulling the trigger for many reasons. There are one and two action revolvers. We should not think that it was a single action revolver. Lets keep our options open. Maybe this revolver was not authentic from the age. Maybe it was a gun that used the hammer by pulling the trigger. Maybe the hammer was put in the shoot position for authenticity. Or maybe something else. That gun fired so all other theories go out the window. Live ammo on the set is one question, but also why it fired, why the revolver was aimed at people etc.

What I don't understand is that those people hit were behind a monitor not behind the camera. If that was the preferred angle to aim the gun for picture, why wasn't the monitor on the other side of the camera. Oh well, we will get the answers later.


Can you cite some facts where properly functioning guns fire without the trigger releasing the firing pin? I’d like to hear one. Second, assuming the movie is trying to be period correct, a single-action revolver is about 95% the likely one in question.


I believe the Finnish National Bureau of Investigation and their gun laboratory. There was a murder case recently where the laboratory found out that a hand gun could shoot without pulling the trigger relatively easy. That gun otherwise worked normally. There are other cases but then there was more movement to the gun. Like a dog pushed over a hunting rifle that fired and killed a person. A famous case that happened in the Finnish military few years before I joined to my conscription a soldier had a light machine gun and he had it pointing to him in a truck. It had a blank and the shake of the truck made it to fire killing that man. I don't know if the trigger made the gun to shoot in this case but no-one pulled the trigger.
 
THS214
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:45 pm

johns624 wrote:
THS214 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I find it humorous that the antigunners are defending Baldwin saying he didn't know any better and the progunners are saying he should've. THS214--guns just don't go off by themselves. The trigger has to be pulled. With this being an old western, in most probability, this was a single action revolver. Not only does the trigger have to be pulled, but the hammer has to be manually cocked first. The main question is--why was there live ammo on a movie set?


Guns can and do go off without pulling the trigger for many reasons. There are one and two action revolvers. We should not think that it was a single action revolver. Lets keep our options open. Maybe this revolver was not authentic from the age. Maybe it was a gun that used the hammer by pulling the trigger. Maybe the hammer was put in the shoot position for authenticity. Or maybe something else. That gun fired so all other theories go out the window. Live ammo on the set is one question, but also why it fired, why the revolver was aimed at people etc.

What I don't understand is that those people hit were behind a monitor not behind the camera. If that was the preferred angle to aim the gun for picture, why wasn't the monitor on the other side of the camera. Oh well, we will get the answers later.
It's obvious that you have little or no real world handgun experience by your posts. I stand with what I said. The old "it went off by itself" is an excuse used by people who were doing things that they shouldn't have been.


Look my earlier post to GalaxyFlyer. That excuse has been proven a fact. Possibility as no-one else but the shooter knows if he pulled the trigger or not. Laboratory proved that it was a real possibility that the gun went off by itself. Accidents do happen, also with weapons and there are many cases where no-one pulled the trigger.

I asked questions and pointed out that we should wait and answers will be answered. All you answer is that I don't know anything about handguns. Mature.

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