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johns624
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:59 pm

THS214 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
THS214 wrote:

Guns can and do go off without pulling the trigger for many reasons. There are one and two action revolvers. We should not think that it was a single action revolver. Lets keep our options open. Maybe this revolver was not authentic from the age. Maybe it was a gun that used the hammer by pulling the trigger. Maybe the hammer was put in the shoot position for authenticity. Or maybe something else. That gun fired so all other theories go out the window. Live ammo on the set is one question, but also why it fired, why the revolver was aimed at people etc.

What I don't understand is that those people hit were behind a monitor not behind the camera. If that was the preferred angle to aim the gun for picture, why wasn't the monitor on the other side of the camera. Oh well, we will get the answers later.


Can you cite some facts where properly functioning guns fire without the trigger releasing the firing pin? I’d like to hear one. Second, assuming the movie is trying to be period correct, a single-action revolver is about 95% the likely one in question.


I believe the Finnish National Bureau of Investigation and their gun laboratory. There was a murder case recently where the laboratory found out that a hand gun could shoot without pulling the trigger relatively easy. That gun otherwise worked normally. There are other cases but then there was more movement to the gun. Like a dog pushed over a hunting rifle that fired and killed a person. A famous case that happened in the Finnish military few years before I joined to my conscription a soldier had a light machine gun and he had it pointing to him in a truck. It had a blank and the shake of the truck made it to fire killing that man. I don't know if the trigger made the gun to shoot in this case but no-one pulled the trigger.
Do you have a link? Model number of gun? Circumstances?
It really doesn't make a difference. You NEVER point a gun at another person unless you're defending yourself.
 
M564038
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:59 pm

This is where it’s get silly.
Of course you point a gun twoards someone if you are an actor on a film set and the script and director tells you so. You are absolved of the responsibility to check such things, just as you are absolved from the responsibility of checking that the bomb prop isn’t a REAL nuclear bomb, and that the 3rd world war doesn’t actually start when you push the red button, or that someone doesn’t actually get hung if you play the judge and give someone the death sentence.

Their are support functions to take care of all those things, and judging from the international film industry’s track record, their system seems to work better than leaving that responsibility to the individual handling the gun.


johns624 wrote:
THS214 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Can you cite some facts where properly functioning guns fire without the trigger releasing the firing pin? I’d like to hear one. Second, assuming the movie is trying to be period correct, a single-action revolver is about 95% the likely one in question.


I believe the Finnish National Bureau of Investigation and their gun laboratory. There was a murder case recently where the laboratory found out that a hand gun could shoot without pulling the trigger relatively easy. That gun otherwise worked normally. There are other cases but then there was more movement to the gun. Like a dog pushed over a hunting rifle that fired and killed a person. A famous case that happened in the Finnish military few years before I joined to my conscription a soldier had a light machine gun and he had it pointing to him in a truck. It had a blank and the shake of the truck made it to fire killing that man. I don't know if the trigger made the gun to shoot in this case but no-one pulled the trigger.
Do you have a link? Model number of gun? Circumstances?
It really doesn't make a difference. You NEVER point a gun at another person unless you're defending yourself.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:01 pm

Yes, rarely can happen; odds compared to a negligent discharge are millions to one.
 
Olddog
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:16 pm

I just don't get why there was a real weapon on the set. In Europe all weapons are totally neutralised and unable to fire a real bullet .
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:24 pm

M564038 wrote:
This is where it’s get silly.
Of course you point a gun twoards someone if you are an actor on a film set and the script and director tells you so. You are absolved of the responsibility to check such things, just as you are absolved from the responsibility of checking that the bomb prop isn’t a REAL nuclear bomb, and that the 3rd world war doesn’t actually start when you push the red button, or that someone doesn’t actually get hung if you play the judge and give someone the death sentence.

Their are support functions to take care of all those things, and judging from the international film industry’s track record, their system seems to work better than leaving that responsibility to the individual handling the gun.


johns624 wrote:
THS214 wrote:

I believe the Finnish National Bureau of Investigation and their gun laboratory. There was a murder case recently where the laboratory found out that a hand gun could shoot without pulling the trigger relatively easy. That gun otherwise worked normally. There are other cases but then there was more movement to the gun. Like a dog pushed over a hunting rifle that fired and killed a person. A famous case that happened in the Finnish military few years before I joined to my conscription a soldier had a light machine gun and he had it pointing to him in a truck. It had a blank and the shake of the truck made it to fire killing that man. I don't know if the trigger made the gun to shoot in this case but no-one pulled the trigger.
Do you have a link? Model number of gun? Circumstances?
It really doesn't make a difference. You NEVER point a gun at another person unless you're defending yourself.


Nope, in this case it was a real nuclear bomb. So, the normal rules apply, certainly not your “the film director told me so” rule. You’re not alone in your thoughts, because evidently this whole film crew agreed with what you are saying. But, they were wrong. If it is a gun, you don’t point it at a person except to kill them. If you need a picture, take it from a different angle. I am not a gun expert, but I was taught this rule many times (at least ten times) by my dad.
 
meecrob
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:27 pm

cairns wrote:
If the actor had acted responsibly no one would be dead or in the hospital. If the producer had acted responsibly no one would be dead or in the hospital either. Alec was both. He better lawyer up.


Pretty sure that's why he's acting the way he is - I'm sure multiple lawyers have made their millions off of being on retainer for the Baldwins...not that they break the law, but they are targets, so I'm positive every action by Alec Baldwin since the incident has been coached by at least one lawyer.

As for the incident...more and more keeps coming out. Too many rumours as of now, but a theme of lax safety from specific individuals seems to be bubbling up. I'm not naming them cuz I don't wanna run their name through the mud off of a glorified twitter post, or tabloid click bait page.

I do have to ask all the people in this thread who are knowledgeable about film production a question; Why can't they film scenes that involve pointing a gun at the camera be shot with a mirror? I'm sure there is a technical reason, because it is so cheap and simple of a solution, I'm just curious.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:14 pm

Olddog wrote:
I just don't get why there was a real weapon on the set. In Europe all weapons are totally neutralised and unable to fire a real bullet .


I’m sure there are clever gunsmiths that could render any firearm to only shoot blanks. Modify the chamber so only special cartridges for blanks fit. Hamilton Bowen’s company springs to mind. I don’t see why the special effects types haven’t done other than deaths are rare, so everyone gets complacent with procedures until they get reminded how dangerous guns are.
 
M564038
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:20 pm

Might seem obvious, but: Your dad don’t make the rules.
Things simply can’t work that way when making a movie. The actors perform, all that other junk needs to go somewhere else. What else should the actor check? That the cameras a REALLY rolling? That the boom mic doesn’t distort and the sampling rate is set to 48kHz, that the SMPTE synce was re-checked during lunch break? That the roll bars in the stunt car is installed correctly? The camera scaffolding? That the lighting rig doesn’t fall on someones head? That the production trucks’ brakes are working and the tire pressure is correct? That the drivers are well rested and sober? That the dent in the focus puller ring doesn’t affect the smoothnes of the expanding bokeh? Providing the correct gun prop is just one of a gazillion set safety details that isn’t an actor’s job.
The accident statistics of modern production protocol is very, very good. Much better than the routines your dad taught you or what your average police force practices score.

LCDFlight wrote:
M564038 wrote:
This is where it’s get silly.
Of course you point a gun twoards someone if you are an actor on a film set and the script and director tells you so. You are absolved of the responsibility to check such things, just as you are absolved from the responsibility of checking that the bomb prop isn’t a REAL nuclear bomb, and that the 3rd world war doesn’t actually start when you push the red button, or that someone doesn’t actually get hung if you play the judge and give someone the death sentence.

Their are support functions to take care of all those things, and judging from the international film industry’s track record, their system seems to work better than leaving that responsibility to the individual handling the gun.


johns624 wrote:
Do you have a link? Model number of gun? Circumstances?
It really doesn't make a difference. You NEVER point a gun at another person unless you're defending yourself.


Nope, in this case it was a real nuclear bomb. So, the normal rules apply, certainly not your “the film director told me so” rule. You’re not alone in your thoughts, because evidently this whole film crew agreed with what you are saying. But, they were wrong. If it is a gun, you don’t point it at a person except to kill them. If you need a picture, take it from a different angle. I am not a gun expert, but I was taught this rule many times (at least ten times) by my dad.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:59 pm

M564038 wrote:
Might seem obvious, but: Your dad don’t make the rules.
Things simply can’t work that way when making a movie. The actors perform, all that other junk needs to go somewhere else. What else should the actor check? That the cameras a REALLY rolling? That the boom mic doesn’t distort and the sampling rate is set to 48kHz, that the SMPTE synce was re-checked during lunch break? That the roll bars in the stunt car is installed correctly? The camera scaffolding? That the lighting rig doesn’t fall on someones head? That the production trucks’ brakes are working and the tire pressure is correct? That the drivers are well rested and sober? That the dent in the focus puller ring doesn’t affect the smoothnes of the expanding bokeh? Providing the correct gun prop is just one of a gazillion set safety details that isn’t an actor’s job.
The accident statistics of modern production protocol is very, very good. Much better than the routines your dad taught you or what your average police force practices score.

LCDFlight wrote:
M564038 wrote:
This is where it’s get silly.
Of course you point a gun twoards someone if you are an actor on a film set and the script and director tells you so. You are absolved of the responsibility to check such things, just as you are absolved from the responsibility of checking that the bomb prop isn’t a REAL nuclear bomb, and that the 3rd world war doesn’t actually start when you push the red button, or that someone doesn’t actually get hung if you play the judge and give someone the death sentence.

Their are support functions to take care of all those things, and judging from the international film industry’s track record, their system seems to work better than leaving that responsibility to the individual handling the gun.




Nope, in this case it was a real nuclear bomb. So, the normal rules apply, certainly not your “the film director told me so” rule. You’re not alone in your thoughts, because evidently this whole film crew agreed with what you are saying. But, they were wrong. If it is a gun, you don’t point it at a person except to kill them. If you need a picture, take it from a different angle. I am not a gun expert, but I was taught this rule many times (at least ten times) by my dad.


Another ridiculous argument—confirming the gun is loaded correctly is simple, one step process—open the cylinder. It requires nothing but an eye and 3 seconds, it’s foolproof. It’s done every single time.

Further more, there were two negligent discharges on THIS set, THIS month. Baldwin is both actor and producer, it’s on him or his team.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:05 pm

meecrob wrote:

I do have to ask all the people in this thread who are knowledgeable about film production a question; Why can't they film scenes that involve pointing a gun at the camera be shot with a mirror? I'm sure there is a technical reason, because it is so cheap and simple of a solution, I'm just curious.


Image reversal for a start.

There are a lot of other factors as well. But the biggest is probably that filming is typically done with an excess of data input. To simplify, almost all shooting is done in an overexposed setting. As our airplane photographers here can tell you, it is always easier to dark down a picture than pull out underexposed light information that is not there. When you start shooting through mirrors and plex covers, this hampers the ability to have a quality result. That can work for you too sometimes which is why things like 'bisexual' light filtering are real methods.

As with many industries, there are a lot of things you may think are cheap and simple, but in reality add levels of complexity that no one have the resources to properly deal with.

I should stress that nobody —in the general public, that is—knows the exact type shot being attempted here. But as I pointed out very far up thread, it was likely a 2nd Person POV, with the weapon pointed at the camera. A projectile passing through that and the camera woman's head aft of that would certainly be able to injure the DP standing behind...


M564038 wrote:
That the dent in the focus puller ring doesn’t affect the smoothnes of the expanding bokeh?


Bokeh... The discount cilantro of filming.

You do make a good point though.

M564038 wrote:
This is where it’s get silly.
Of course you point a gun twoards someone if you are an actor on a film set and the script and director tells you so.


Those are offset by a minimum of so many degrees per unit of distance. The specifics for that rule vary based on locality, but you are not actually ever pointing a weapon at someone.



M564038 wrote:
Their are support functions to take care of all those things, and judging from the international film industry’s track record, their system seems to work better than leaving that responsibility to the individual handling the gun.


Quite so. We are better than any police force known to mankind. No big deal...


lightsaber wrote:
Serious question, how is the director?


He has been released from Christus St. Vincent Regional Medical Center where he underwent treatment for his injuries.


LCDFlight wrote:
I am not a gun expert, but I was taught this rule many times (at least ten times) by my dad.


Why did your father need to teach you this ten times?
 
cairns
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:05 pm

[quote="M564038"]This is where it’s get silly.
Of course you point a gun twoards someone if you are an actor on a film set and the script and director tells you so.

How much you wanna bet? He isn't going to be absolved of anything. He wasn't just the actor he was a producer. And he pointed the gun at the director. Do you actually believe the director told him to point the gun at her and fire?

How stupid can you get?

FWIW no one in Hollywood has pointed a gun at another actor or director since Brandon Lee died.

This was a low rent movie on a low rent set with a low rent producer.

And Alec even refused the workers hotel rooms so they had to drive 50 miles each way to get to the set.

Your pompous little left wing hero is actually a monster. But anyone with half a brain knew that decades ago.
Last edited by cairns on Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:12 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Might seem obvious, but: Your dad don’t make the rules.
Things simply can’t work that way when making a movie. The actors perform, all that other junk needs to go somewhere else. What else should the actor check? That the cameras a REALLY rolling? That the boom mic doesn’t distort and the sampling rate is set to 48kHz, that the SMPTE synce was re-checked during lunch break? That the roll bars in the stunt car is installed correctly? The camera scaffolding? That the lighting rig doesn’t fall on someones head? That the production trucks’ brakes are working and the tire pressure is correct? That the drivers are well rested and sober? That the dent in the focus puller ring doesn’t affect the smoothnes of the expanding bokeh? Providing the correct gun prop is just one of a gazillion set safety details that isn’t an actor’s job.
The accident statistics of modern production protocol is very, very good. Much better than the routines your dad taught you or what your average police force practices score.

LCDFlight wrote:

Nope, in this case it was a real nuclear bomb. So, the normal rules apply, certainly not your “the film director told me so” rule. You’re not alone in your thoughts, because evidently this whole film crew agreed with what you are saying. But, they were wrong. If it is a gun, you don’t point it at a person except to kill them. If you need a picture, take it from a different angle. I am not a gun expert, but I was taught this rule many times (at least ten times) by my dad.


Another ridiculous argument—confirming the gun is loaded correctly is simple, one step process—open the cylinder. It requires nothing but an eye and 3 seconds, it’s foolproof. It’s done every single time.

Further more, there were two negligent discharges on THIS set, THIS month. Baldwin is both actor and producer, it’s on him or his team.


It’s not on him as actor - that’s simply not how responsibility on a film production works. There are six producers on the project, and unknown who the executive producers are - but yes, he will bear some shared responsibility as part of that team. Right now the problems on set are reportedly due to the AD:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/10/24/ente ... index.html
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:14 pm

cairns wrote:
And he pointed the gun at the director. How stupid can you get?


Again, this analysis demonstrates zero understanding of what happens on a film set and why.
 
M564038
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:28 pm

Everything is simple if you break it down.

It is just not his job.
A pilot doesn’t stop his aircraft on the runway before take-off to go outside to double check that they remembered to put the wings on.

He is working from a tried and tested assumption that the system is working and someone actually followed protocol and made sure the wings are there.

This is on that level.

I don’t care who the actor was or his/her/their politics. It would have been the same if it was Charles Heston or Ronald Reagan.

And for the gun pointing in this or that direction bullshit.

A gun is always pointing towards something or someone. Its physics. At least as we know it.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Might seem obvious, but: Your dad don’t make the rules.
Things simply can’t work that way when making a movie. The actors perform, all that other junk needs to go somewhere else. What else should the actor check? That the cameras a REALLY rolling? That the boom mic doesn’t distort and the sampling rate is set to 48kHz, that the SMPTE synce was re-checked during lunch break? That the roll bars in the stunt car is installed correctly? The camera scaffolding? That the lighting rig doesn’t fall on someones head? That the production trucks’ brakes are working and the tire pressure is correct? That the drivers are well rested and sober? That the dent in the focus puller ring doesn’t affect the smoothnes of the expanding bokeh? Providing the correct gun prop is just one of a gazillion set safety details that isn’t an actor’s job.
The accident statistics of modern production protocol is very, very good. Much better than the routines your dad taught you or what your average police force practices score.

LCDFlight wrote:

Nope, in this case it was a real nuclear bomb. So, the normal rules apply, certainly not your “the film director told me so” rule. You’re not alone in your thoughts, because evidently this whole film crew agreed with what you are saying. But, they were wrong. If it is a gun, you don’t point it at a person except to kill them. If you need a picture, take it from a different angle. I am not a gun expert, but I was taught this rule many times (at least ten times) by my dad.


Another ridiculous argument—confirming the gun is loaded correctly is simple, one step process—open the cylinder. It requires nothing but an eye and 3 seconds, it’s foolproof. It’s done every single time.

Further more, there were two negligent discharges on THIS set, THIS month. Baldwin is both actor and producer, it’s on him or his team.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:34 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Another ridiculous argument—confirming the gun is loaded correctly is simple, one step process—open the cylinder. It requires nothing but an eye and 3 seconds, it’s foolproof. It’s done every single time.

It is obvious for someone who has an interest in guns. Someone without an interest in guns is not going to gave an automated reflex to check the gun.

My hobby is photography, my reflex is to check the ISO and shooting mode every time I start the camera. If I ask someone else to take a photo, then I know it is not a given that the other guy will check the ISO.

Alec has been quite outspoken against guns. I think it is fair to assume they are not his hobby, and as a consequence he does not have your automated reflex to check the gun.
 
emperortk
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:48 pm

cairns wrote:
Your pompous little left wing hero is actually a monster. But anyone with half a brain knew that decades ago.


And here we have the real motivation behind many of the posts in this thread.
 
Okie
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:04 am

I am still working on the how does a gun that is designated "cold" , as in safe, get loaded and pointed and fired at someone who is not in the movie.

Okie
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:12 am

Okie wrote:
I am still working on the how does a gun that is designated "cold" , as in safe, get loaded and pointed and fired at someone who is not in the movie.

Okie


The first point is what’s being investigated...the second ‘pointed and fired at someone not in the movie’ takes getting an understanding of how sets and shot setup work - see reply 78.
 
art
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:37 am

THS214 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
THS214 wrote:
Accidents do happen, also with weapons and there are many cases where no-one pulled the trigger.

The school I attended had a cadet force. We would go on map reading exercises in the countryside from time to time armed with rifles loaded with blanks. Crossing wet, uneven terrain with loads of tall heather one boy probably snagged the trigger of his rifle and blew a hole in the side of his face. He did not die but we never saw him again.

Sadly, accidents do happen.
 
Newark727
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:48 am

cairns wrote:
Your pompous little left wing hero is actually a monster. But anyone with half a brain knew that decades ago.


He's a left-wing hero? News to me.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:54 am

Aaron747 wrote:
cairns wrote:
And he pointed the gun at the director. How stupid can you get?


Again, this analysis demonstrates zero understanding of what happens on a film set and why.


Nope, sorry. Alec Baldwin pointed a gun at somebody and killed her. It doesn’t matter if it was in a film set, in a strip club, underwater, on the moon or anywhere else. Alec was using a gun as a dramatic tool to make money. He acted extremely carelessly and he killed someone. Every gun is loaded. The whole thing about somebody might have checked it is an irrelevant (and false) canard. In truth, it was a deadly weapon and Alec mishandled it. It’s an OLD story that has killed thousands. Educated people know this… but not Alec. He “was sure it wasn’t loaded.” Facepalm
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:07 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
cairns wrote:
And he pointed the gun at the director. How stupid can you get?


Again, this analysis demonstrates zero understanding of what happens on a film set and why.


Nope, sorry. Alec Baldwin pointed a gun at somebody and killed her. It doesn’t matter if it was in a film set, in a strip club, underwater, on the moon or anywhere else. Alec was using a gun as a dramatic tool to make money. He acted extremely carelessly and he killed someone. Every gun is loaded. The whole thing about somebody might have checked it is an irrelevant (and false) canard. In truth, it was a deadly weapon and Alec mishandled it. It’s an OLD story that has killed thousands. Educated people know this… but not Alec. He “was sure it wasn’t loaded.” Facepalm


Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but not their own facts. The film set context matters because it's normally a controlled and procedure-oriented environment in which firearms of varying types may be pointed at people (or not) in a variety of ways that would make no sense outside of that environment. Outside, sure, the 'you don't point at someone unless intending to kill' principle applies, but not here. To claim otherwise is just plain ignorance of how the business operates.

Like, at least get a basic idea before commenting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tbKJG1tm88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDp6AgPl6MA

https://youtu.be/vn-B1F_0jBw?t=216
Last edited by Aaron747 on Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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seb146
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:19 am

Newark727 wrote:
cairns wrote:
Your pompous little left wing hero is actually a monster. But anyone with half a brain knew that decades ago.


He's a left-wing hero? News to me.


Of course he is! He was on Saturday Night Live many times "mocking" and "making fun" of the twice impeached, one term president! That makes him "left wing"! Because, apparently, we can not ever, in any context or for any reason, make fun of or mock that one guy every for any reason. He is always and forever off limits. Haven't you seen the "blogs" and "posts" on "social media"?

Accidents happen. Look at all the children who kill their siblings because the parents "didn't know" the gun was loaded and "didn't know" the gun was sitting on the table and "didn't know" because... The same thing is said: accidents happen, oh, well..... This is from the "every life is sacred so let's not give women domain over their bodies" group. Accidents happen. And they cheer and rejoice when an "accident" happens when it happens to someone like Baldwin. Don't believe me? Look at social media. It is sick and I am sickened by it. Not anyone here. I am just sickened by what those in the real REAL world are saying about this.
 
GDB
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:41 am

seb146 wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
cairns wrote:
Your pompous little left wing hero is actually a monster. But anyone with half a brain knew that decades ago.


He's a left-wing hero? News to me.


Of course he is! He was on Saturday Night Live many times "mocking" and "making fun" of the twice impeached, one term president! That makes him "left wing"! Because, apparently, we can not ever, in any context or for any reason, make fun of or mock that one guy every for any reason. He is always and forever off limits. Haven't you seen the "blogs" and "posts" on "social media"?

Accidents happen. Look at all the children who kill their siblings because the parents "didn't know" the gun was loaded and "didn't know" the gun was sitting on the table and "didn't know" because... The same thing is said: accidents happen, oh, well..... This is from the "every life is sacred so let's not give women domain over their bodies" group. Accidents happen. And they cheer and rejoice when an "accident" happens when it happens to someone like Baldwin. Don't believe me? Look at social media. It is sick and I am sickened by it. Not anyone here. I am just sickened by what those in the real REAL world are saying about this.


Quite, one post on here slagging off Baldwin and hilariously given how his aspects of his private life admittedly paints him in a poor light, still is a model of virtue compared to the conduct of the One True Orange, Racist, Corrupt Guru (who unlike Baldwin, like's 'em young), seems to be too busy thinking that this 'Lib Got Owned', that they did not even know/bother to find out, the job of the poor woman killed. Just some foreign chick, right?
(Halyna Hutchins, grew up in what was the USSR on a military base in the Arctic Circle).

DP, Director Of Photography, that was her job, so yes is IS plausible that to create the various things they had to do to get the desired scene, multiple takes, before that checks for lighting, camera angles, number of angles for the scene and a myriad of others most of us not in the business are aware of, Baldwin very likely was asked to point the weapon where he did.
They do warn those who want to see their favourite film or TV show being made, are always told it will be very boring, mostly waiting around for everything to be prepped/reset, for often hours at a time.

You have seen the pics of Baldwin after the tragic accident, he has also been acting for over 30 years, many productions involving firearms, it would have been implausible to him to be handed a 'hot' firearm on a set.
Besides all of that, the investigation is far from over.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:58 pm

seb146 wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
cairns wrote:
Your pompous little left wing hero is actually a monster. But anyone with half a brain knew that decades ago.


He's a left-wing hero? News to me.


Of course he is! He was on Saturday Night Live many times "mocking" and "making fun" of the twice impeached, one term president! That makes him "left wing"! Because, apparently, we can not ever, in any context or for any reason, make fun of or mock that one guy every for any reason. He is always and forever off limits. Haven't you seen the "blogs" and "posts" on "social media"?

Accidents happen. Look at all the children who kill their siblings because the parents "didn't know" the gun was loaded and "didn't know" the gun was sitting on the table and "didn't know" because... The same thing is said: accidents happen, oh, well..... This is from the "every life is sacred so let's not give women domain over their bodies" group. Accidents happen. And they cheer and rejoice when an "accident" happens when it happens to someone like Baldwin. Don't believe me? Look at social media. It is sick and I am sickened by it. Not anyone here. I am just sickened by what those in the real REAL world are saying about this.


You are right. This happens across the country to right wing families and inner city families, and everything in between. It is routine. Baldwin is using the same excuse that they use. Despite “all their precautions,” (and because of their misplaced confidence), somebody got shot while toying around with a gun. Happens every day in the US.

It is a tragedy. You are right that people should not be glad it happened. I hope Baldwin realizes the truth about what he did (that he is just your average gun idiot), but it isn’t likely he will “get it.” People always think their situation was “special” and “nobody could have known.”
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:28 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
It is a tragedy. You are right that people should not be glad it happened. I hope Baldwin realizes the truth about what he did (that he is just your average gun idiot), but it isn’t likely he will “get it.”


This take really makes no sense, especially with all of the contributions from people in the thread who know the industry to an extent. There are certainly things Baldwin and the other producers will have to answer for, like why the safety complaints about the AD went unheeded, but to continue to fixate on the actor on set as the only player in this story is patently illogical. :boggled:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/rus ... 25940.html
Last edited by Aaron747 on Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:29 pm

BBC reporting that Baldwin was “pointing gun at camera.”

Alec Baldwin was pointing gun at camera in Rust rehearsal, legal papers say https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59035483
 
bpatus297
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:36 pm

THS214 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I find it humorous that the antigunners are defending Baldwin saying he didn't know any better and the progunners are saying he should've. THS214--guns just don't go off by themselves. The trigger has to be pulled. With this being an old western, in most probability, this was a single action revolver. Not only does the trigger have to be pulled, but the hammer has to be manually cocked first. The main question is--why was there live ammo on a movie set?


Guns can and do go off without pulling the trigger for many reasons. There are one and two action revolvers. We should not think that it was a single action revolver. Lets keep our options open. Maybe this revolver was not authentic from the age. Maybe it was a gun that used the hammer by pulling the trigger. Maybe the hammer was put in the shoot position for authenticity. Or maybe something else. That gun fired so all other theories go out the window. Live ammo on the set is one question, but also why it fired, why the revolver was aimed at people etc.

What I don't understand is that those people hit were behind a monitor not behind the camera. If that was the preferred angle to aim the gun for picture, why wasn't the monitor on the other side of the camera. Oh well, we will get the answers later.


Going going off without pulling the trigger in not common by any stretch of the imagination. Certain types of guns, with things like floating firing pins (Remington 870 shotgun etc), can go boom if dropped at the right angel. However, this is hardly common.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:44 pm

art wrote:
i don't see why anyone with no knowledge of guns (if that was the case) should not rely on someone with expertise, someone responsible for gun safety. If they say a gun is safe that should be sufficient to treat the gun as being safe in my opinion. It is reported that the actor checked with the 'safety officer' that it it was a 'cold gun' so I think the actor acted responsibly. How it came to be pointed at the victims is a different matter to me.


You always do a physical and visual inspection of a weapon EVERY time you pick it up, and you always treat every weapon as if it was loaded. I'm not placing blame, we don't know what happened yet, BUT, he should not have been pointing the weapon at anyone. I'm sure Hollywood has figured out camera angels to make it appear that someone is point the gun at another person when in fact they are not. He should have never been pointing that weapon at anyone, period.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:54 pm

M564038 wrote:
Everything is simple if you break it down.

It is just not his job.
A pilot doesn’t stop his aircraft on the runway before take-off to go outside to double check that they remembered to put the wings on.

He is working from a tried and tested assumption that the system is working and someone actually followed protocol and made sure the wings are there.

This is on that level.

I don’t care who the actor was or his/her/their politics. It would have been the same if it was Charles Heston or Ronald Reagan.

And for the gun pointing in this or that direction bullshit.

A gun is always pointing towards something or someone. Its physics. At least as we know it.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Might seem obvious, but: Your dad don’t make the rules.
Things simply can’t work that way when making a movie. The actors perform, all that other junk needs to go somewhere else. What else should the actor check? That the cameras a REALLY rolling? That the boom mic doesn’t distort and the sampling rate is set to 48kHz, that the SMPTE synce was re-checked during lunch break? That the roll bars in the stunt car is installed correctly? The camera scaffolding? That the lighting rig doesn’t fall on someones head? That the production trucks’ brakes are working and the tire pressure is correct? That the drivers are well rested and sober? That the dent in the focus puller ring doesn’t affect the smoothnes of the expanding bokeh? Providing the correct gun prop is just one of a gazillion set safety details that isn’t an actor’s job.
The accident statistics of modern production protocol is very, very good. Much better than the routines your dad taught you or what your average police force practices score.



Another ridiculous argument—confirming the gun is loaded correctly is simple, one step process—open the cylinder. It requires nothing but an eye and 3 seconds, it’s foolproof. It’s done every single time.

Further more, there were two negligent discharges on THIS set, THIS month. Baldwin is both actor and producer, it’s on him or his team.


Actually the pilot verified "that the wings were there" during the pre-flight inspection/walk around. Pretty much the same as checking to see is the weapon was loaded.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:06 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
art wrote:
i don't see why anyone with no knowledge of guns (if that was the case) should not rely on someone with expertise, someone responsible for gun safety. If they say a gun is safe that should be sufficient to treat the gun as being safe in my opinion. It is reported that the actor checked with the 'safety officer' that it it was a 'cold gun' so I think the actor acted responsibly. How it came to be pointed at the victims is a different matter to me.


You always do a physical and visual inspection of a weapon EVERY time you pick it up, and you always treat every weapon as if it was loaded. I'm not placing blame, we don't know what happened yet, BUT, he should not have been pointing the weapon at anyone. I'm sure Hollywood has figured out camera angels to make it appear that someone is point the gun at another person when in fact they are not. He should have never been pointing that weapon at anyone, period.



This wasn't supposed to be a weapon. It was supposed to be a prop, and it was checked, by the person paid to provide the prop. They declared it cold. Probably without checking themselves, to a person whose responsibility was not to fire a weapon, but to act on that info.

There are multiple failures here, and if the rumors are true, manslaughter charges are possible for the crew that allowed that prop to be used in live fire and not emptied prior to use on set.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:21 pm

Couple of things jump out at me here, why is the media and everyone calling it a "prop" gun. It's a real gun. Saying Prop should only be used if the gun is fake. Second I think in all rehearsals a fake gun should be used that can replicate sounds of shots but not have any sort of load in the gun. Another question is why was a live round on set? Was it a live round?
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:25 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
art wrote:
i don't see why anyone with no knowledge of guns (if that was the case) should not rely on someone with expertise, someone responsible for gun safety. If they say a gun is safe that should be sufficient to treat the gun as being safe in my opinion. It is reported that the actor checked with the 'safety officer' that it it was a 'cold gun' so I think the actor acted responsibly. How it came to be pointed at the victims is a different matter to me.


You always do a physical and visual inspection of a weapon EVERY time you pick it up, and you always treat every weapon as if it was loaded. I'm not placing blame, we don't know what happened yet, BUT, he should not have been pointing the weapon at anyone. I'm sure Hollywood has figured out camera angels to make it appear that someone is point the gun at another person when in fact they are not. He should have never been pointing that weapon at anyone, period.


Yes, they could even set up a camera, point the gun at the camera, and have the DP use a remote monitor. It would have been quite easy to do this safely, but no one on the scene understood the rules of gun safety (don't point a gun at a person). I see some people in this thread refuse to believe this is a rule. So it will happen again. And after that, it will happen again.

Although I am not an NRA member, I attach the below link on gun rules.

https://gunsafetyrules.nra.org
 
cairns
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:38 pm

M564038 wrote:
Everything is simple if you break it down.

It is just not his job.
A pilot doesn’t stop his aircraft on the runway before take-off to go outside to double check that they remembered to put the wings on.

He is working from a tried and tested assumption that the system is working and someone actually followed protocol and made sure the wings are there.

This is on that level.

I don’t care who the actor was or his/her/their politics. It would have been the same if it was Charles Heston or Ronald Reagan.

And for the gun pointing in this or that direction bullshit.

A gun is always pointing towards something or someone. Its physics. At least as we know it.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Might seem obvious, but: Your dad don’t make the rules.



Things simply can’t work that way when making a movie. The actors perform, all that other junk needs to go somewhere else. What else should the actor check? That the cameras a REALLY rolling? That the boom mic doesn’t distort and the sampling rate is set to 48kHz, that the SMPTE synce was re-checked during lunch break? That the roll bars in the stunt car is installed correctly? The camera scaffolding? That the lighting rig doesn’t fall on someones head? That the production trucks’ brakes are working and the tire pressure is correct? That the drivers are well rested and sober? That the dent in the focus puller ring doesn’t affect the smoothnes of the expanding bokeh? Providing the correct gun prop is just one of a gazillion set safety details that isn’t an actor’s job.
The accident statistics of modern production protocol is very, very good. Much better than the routines your dad taught you or what your average police force practices score.



Another ridiculous argument—confirming the gun is loaded correctly is simple, one step process—open the cylinder. It requires nothing but an eye and 3 seconds, it’s foolproof. It’s done every single time.

Further more, there were two negligent discharges on THIS set, THIS month. Baldwin is both actor and producer, it’s on him or his team.




A pilot doesn't check the wings are on? This on an aviation site? How ignorant can you get? They check everything from tires to pitot tubes.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:45 pm

casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
art wrote:
i don't see why anyone with no knowledge of guns (if that was the case) should not rely on someone with expertise, someone responsible for gun safety. If they say a gun is safe that should be sufficient to treat the gun as being safe in my opinion. It is reported that the actor checked with the 'safety officer' that it it was a 'cold gun' so I think the actor acted responsibly. How it came to be pointed at the victims is a different matter to me.


You always do a physical and visual inspection of a weapon EVERY time you pick it up, and you always treat every weapon as if it was loaded. I'm not placing blame, we don't know what happened yet, BUT, he should not have been pointing the weapon at anyone. I'm sure Hollywood has figured out camera angels to make it appear that someone is point the gun at another person when in fact they are not. He should have never been pointing that weapon at anyone, period.



This wasn't supposed to be a weapon. It was supposed to be a prop, and it was checked, by the person paid to provide the prop. They declared it cold. Probably without checking themselves, to a person whose responsibility was not to fire a weapon, but to act on that info.

There are multiple failures here, and if the rumors are true, manslaughter charges are possible for the crew that allowed that prop to be used in live fire and not emptied prior to use on set.


I agree with the multiple failures, but calling a weapon that is capable of firing a live round a prop doesn't change what it is/was......a weapon.
 
FGITD
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:48 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Couple of things jump out at me here, why is the media and everyone calling it a "prop" gun. It's a real gun. Saying Prop should only be used if the gun is fake. Second I think in all rehearsals a fake gun should be used that can replicate sounds of shots but not have any sort of load in the gun. Another question is why was a live round on set? Was it a live round?


I think the confusion comes between the use of film set terms vs common use. A prop is apparently anything an actor is holding or using, regardless of whether it’s “real” or not. Likewise for the term live gun. To us it means a gun with a bullet…for them it seems to mean a gun with anything in it, including blanks. Definitely agree on that point though…I get the need for realism but it’s 2021…you don’t need a real gun capable of firing anything.

I tried the aviation comparison earlier and was dismissed. I’ve loaded thousands of planes and handed off my signature on the load sheets etc for every single one. Never once seen a pilot double check my work. But I guess using this threads logic, we’re all in agreement that the captain of National 102 (the Bagram 747 crash) was an irresponsible fool, and 100% at fault for that crash, right??
 
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casinterest
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:57 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

You always do a physical and visual inspection of a weapon EVERY time you pick it up, and you always treat every weapon as if it was loaded. I'm not placing blame, we don't know what happened yet, BUT, he should not have been pointing the weapon at anyone. I'm sure Hollywood has figured out camera angels to make it appear that someone is point the gun at another person when in fact they are not. He should have never been pointing that weapon at anyone, period.



This wasn't supposed to be a weapon. It was supposed to be a prop, and it was checked, by the person paid to provide the prop. They declared it cold. Probably without checking themselves, to a person whose responsibility was not to fire a weapon, but to act on that info.

There are multiple failures here, and if the rumors are true, manslaughter charges are possible for the crew that allowed that prop to be used in live fire and not emptied prior to use on set.


I agree with the multiple failures, but calling a weapon that is capable of firing a live round a prop doesn't change what it is/was......a weapon.


The Armorer was there to make sure it was a prop instead of a weapon.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:08 pm

You haven’t handed me the load sheet! I’ve corrected a few loadmasters over the years who made an innocent mistake or miscommunication.

A better comparison than the silly idea of pilots checking attachment bolts or me checking the hidden house wiring is pilots checking the take-off data. Despite the computers most of us have quick reasonableness checks or one pilot enters data and the other confirms it. Armorer hands Hun to actor, actor checks the loads.

Take-off trim setting is pretty important. Rainy afternoon leaving RMS for a base quite near Saudi Arabia. Engineers compute the data, I am handed to card. Instantly, without using the checklist, ask the loads, “I was briefed all the cargo was through load”. “Yes, sir”. “Did you rearrange it?” “No, sir”. “Then, engineer, why is today’s setting 2.8 and yesterday’s setting was 1.2?” “Oops”. 3-star asked how I knew or remembered the setting. Well, it’s pretty important.

Baldwin is going to have to live with this event for the rest of his life. I don’t envy or condemn except for his oversight of a simple rule when handing a gun—it’s loaded until,you confirm otherwise.
 
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:09 pm

casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


This wasn't supposed to be a weapon. It was supposed to be a prop, and it was checked, by the person paid to provide the prop. They declared it cold. Probably without checking themselves, to a person whose responsibility was not to fire a weapon, but to act on that info.

There are multiple failures here, and if the rumors are true, manslaughter charges are possible for the crew that allowed that prop to be used in live fire and not emptied prior to use on set.


I agree with the multiple failures, but calling a weapon that is capable of firing a live round a prop doesn't change what it is/was......a weapon.


The Armorer was there to make sure it was a prop instead of a weapon.


The armorer won’t bear the guilt of shooting the DP, Baldwin will.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:14 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I agree with the multiple failures, but calling a weapon that is capable of firing a live round a prop doesn't change what it is/was......a weapon.


The Armorer was there to make sure it was a prop instead of a weapon.


The armorer won’t bear the guilt of shooting the DP, Baldwin will.


No but they will bear the guilty of failing in their responsibilities that allowed it to happen. Baldwin will have his own guilt on this, but he was told by the person responsible it was OK to go.

As we have seen the Airplane Pilot comparison's on this thread, I look at this more like the AA 191 crash. A lot of people suffering, because something that should have been done, was not done properly during maintenance.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:18 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
BUT, he should not have been pointing the weapon at anyone. I'm sure Hollywood has figured out camera angels to make it appear that someone is point the gun at another person when in fact they are not. He should have never been pointing that weapon at anyone, period.


You obviously have not seen many movies. And this statement is just simple ignorance of the various types of shots used in filmmaking. There is a type of POV shot in which the character looks directly at the camera (to establish the audience's ability to see from an opposing character's POV). In that case the gun would be pointed at the camera and whoever is operating it. A famous use of this is in 'Silence of the Lambs', and another is the 'gun barrel' opener to 007 films - though that POV shot is at a much longer distance than is normally used.
 
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:45 pm

casinterest wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:

The Armorer was there to make sure it was a prop instead of a weapon.


The armorer won’t bear the guilt of shooting the DP, Baldwin will.


No but they will bear the guilty of failing in their responsibilities that allowed it to happen. Baldwin will have his own guilt on this, but he was told by the person responsible it was OK to go.

As we have seen the Airplane Pilot comparison's on this thread, I look at this more like the AA 191 crash. A lot of people suffering, because something that should have been done, was not done properly during maintenance.


But, an actor given a gun does have the ability to check and confirm the gun is safe. It’s a simple process, not at all like checking the engine mounts, more like checking the engineer’s data—in both cases there exists a procedure to prevent the error from becoming catastrophic. AA 191’s crew had no way of knowing, Baldwin and other similar cases had a three second procedure to confirm it was safe. Not at all like AA 191’s pilots.
 
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:48 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
BUT, he should not have been pointing the weapon at anyone. I'm sure Hollywood has figured out camera angels to make it appear that someone is point the gun at another person when in fact they are not. He should have never been pointing that weapon at anyone, period.


You obviously have not seen many movies. And this statement is just simple ignorance of the various types of shots used in filmmaking. There is a type of POV shot in which the character looks directly at the camera (to establish the audience's ability to see from an opposing character's POV). In that case the gun would be pointed at the camera and whoever is operating it. A famous use of this is in 'Silence of the Lambs', and another is the 'gun barrel' opener to 007 films - though that POV shot is at a much longer distance than is normally used.


I haven’t seen a Hollywood movie produced in the last 30 years, but when I thought about it and read a NYT article pointing a gun at the camera makes sense.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:50 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

The armorer won’t bear the guilt of shooting the DP, Baldwin will.


No but they will bear the guilty of failing in their responsibilities that allowed it to happen. Baldwin will have his own guilt on this, but he was told by the person responsible it was OK to go.

As we have seen the Airplane Pilot comparison's on this thread, I look at this more like the AA 191 crash. A lot of people suffering, because something that should have been done, was not done properly during maintenance.


But, an actor given a gun does have the ability to check and confirm the gun is safe. It’s a simple process, not at all like checking the engine mounts, more like checking the engineer’s data—in both cases there exists a procedure to prevent the error from becoming catastrophic. AA 191’s crew had no way of knowing, Baldwin and other similar cases had a three second procedure to confirm it was safe. Not at all like AA 191’s pilots.


As previously stated upthread, the film industry already has industry-standard procedures for use of firearm props on set. These have been used reliably and safely for more than 25 years and do not require or necessitate performers to do their own checks of firearms.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:52 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

The armorer won’t bear the guilt of shooting the DP, Baldwin will.


No but they will bear the guilty of failing in their responsibilities that allowed it to happen. Baldwin will have his own guilt on this, but he was told by the person responsible it was OK to go.

As we have seen the Airplane Pilot comparison's on this thread, I look at this more like the AA 191 crash. A lot of people suffering, because something that should have been done, was not done properly during maintenance.


But, an actor given a gun does have the ability to check and confirm the gun is safe. It’s a simple process, not at all like checking the engine mounts, more like checking the engineer’s data—in both cases there exists a procedure to prevent the error from becoming catastrophic. AA 191’s crew had no way of knowing, Baldwin and other similar cases had a three second procedure to confirm it was safe. Not at all like AA 191’s pilots.


An Actor isn't trying to use the weapon as anything more than a prop. That is why there is an Armorer. Baldwin, was told it was in prop mode, and accepted that, much has he probably had the entire shoot. Little did he know that this one wasn't checked. Baldwin was told by the person responsible for all activities with guns on that set that , that the gun was cold. What will be interesting to find out, is where and when was the gun fired. According to reports, Baldwin was practicing a cross draw while seated.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:05 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
BUT, he should not have been pointing the weapon at anyone. I'm sure Hollywood has figured out camera angels to make it appear that someone is point the gun at another person when in fact they are not. He should have never been pointing that weapon at anyone, period.


You obviously have not seen many movies. And this statement is just simple ignorance of the various types of shots used in filmmaking. There is a type of POV shot in which the character looks directly at the camera (to establish the audience's ability to see from an opposing character's POV). In that case the gun would be pointed at the camera and whoever is operating it. A famous use of this is in 'Silence of the Lambs', and another is the 'gun barrel' opener to 007 films - though that POV shot is at a much longer distance than is normally used.


Really, I obviously haven't seen many movies because I am capable of reasoning that Hollywood has tricks to simulate pointing a weapon at someone? Just because a shot has the weapon pointed towards a camera doesn't mean someone was behind the camera when that was done. It also doesn't mean the weapon in that shot was capable of firing a round. I guess the whole idea of movie magic goes out the window. They have been doing it safely since Brandon Lee was shot. Pretty sure that showed why you don't point guns at people, prop or not.

I am not laying blame with Baldwin. I don't know enough about the industry to say if he was following SOP or not. If he was, he will be fine (from a liability stand point), if not, the chips will fall where they do. Someone has a liability issue, whether or not that warrants criminal charges has yet to be seen.

Just because people on here are saying that some cardinal rules of weapons safety was not followed is not the same as saying that Baldwin needs thrown in jail, but again we disagree, so we are wrong (that is a cardinal rule of non-av).
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4289
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:06 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

The armorer won’t bear the guilt of shooting the DP, Baldwin will.


No but they will bear the guilty of failing in their responsibilities that allowed it to happen. Baldwin will have his own guilt on this, but he was told by the person responsible it was OK to go.

As we have seen the Airplane Pilot comparison's on this thread, I look at this more like the AA 191 crash. A lot of people suffering, because something that should have been done, was not done properly during maintenance.


But, an actor given a gun does have the ability to check and confirm the gun is safe. It’s a simple process, not at all like checking the engine mounts, more like checking the engineer’s data—in both cases there exists a procedure to prevent the error from becoming catastrophic. AA 191’s crew had no way of knowing, Baldwin and other similar cases had a three second procedure to confirm it was safe. Not at all like AA 191’s pilots.


Checking for earth faults is also a very short simple procedure but isn't done on your home wiring, you said you didn't know how to, I do, so so should you (why would being an enthusiast matter?)

I would agree that it is a good idea to check a gun is empty before using it. This is what I do with mine (used to when I had time and there was less heather mite). What I don't get however is the assumptions that everyone should have the same level of knowledge as an enthusiast has be able to make sure that a gun is safe. I would agree that what Baldwin did was stupid, some people regarded what happened in SQ006 was stupid of the pilots but that doesn't help because people behave in the ways they behave and can be regarded by many different people as stupid. It doesn't do anything for those who will be shot by 'stupid' people in the future be that on a film set or by their toddler or by just not doing it right. In these situations people are not stupid, they are just being people and there are many hundreds of accidental shootings every year because of these types of things and putting it down to "stupid" is quite frankly a sad place to think from.

Understanding why these things happen and prevent them from happening is the key. Imagine if we were this moronic on car safety, everyone should "just know" how to keep their car maintained. everyone should "just know" what is an appropriate speed, everyone should "just know" when they can drive a car safely, everyone should "just know" if they have had too much alcohol to drive and deal with the ramifications later, it is after all, so simple. My friend Andy built a car of his own design almost entirely from scratch and he knows how to maintain it so we should all be able to.

Fred
 
Olddog
Posts: 1649
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:07 pm

And why there was a deadly weapon on the set at all ?
 
bpatus297
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:11 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
casinterest wrote:

No but they will bear the guilty of failing in their responsibilities that allowed it to happen. Baldwin will have his own guilt on this, but he was told by the person responsible it was OK to go.

As we have seen the Airplane Pilot comparison's on this thread, I look at this more like the AA 191 crash. A lot of people suffering, because something that should have been done, was not done properly during maintenance.


But, an actor given a gun does have the ability to check and confirm the gun is safe. It’s a simple process, not at all like checking the engine mounts, more like checking the engineer’s data—in both cases there exists a procedure to prevent the error from becoming catastrophic. AA 191’s crew had no way of knowing, Baldwin and other similar cases had a three second procedure to confirm it was safe. Not at all like AA 191’s pilots.


Checking for earth faults is also a very short simple procedure but isn't done on your home wiring, you said you didn't know how to, I do, so so should you (why would being an enthusiast matter?)

I would agree that it is a good idea to check a gun is empty before using it. This is what I do with mine (used to when I had time and there was less heather mite). What I don't get however is the assumptions that everyone should have the same level of knowledge as an enthusiast has be able to make sure that a gun is safe. I would agree that what Baldwin did was stupid, some people regarded what happened in SQ006 was stupid of the pilots but that doesn't help because people behave in the ways they behave and can be regarded by many different people as stupid. It doesn't do anything for those who will be shot by 'stupid' people in the future be that on a film set or by their toddler or by just not doing it right. In these situations people are not stupid, they are just being people and there are many hundreds of accidental shootings every year because of these types of things and putting it down to "stupid" is quite frankly a sad place to think from.

Understanding why these things happen and prevent them from happening is the key. Imagine if we were this moronic on car safety, everyone should "just know" how to keep their car maintained. everyone should "just know" what is an appropriate speed, everyone should "just know" when they can drive a car safely, everyone should "just know" if they have had too much alcohol to drive and deal with the ramifications later, it is after all, so simple. My friend Andy built a car of his own design almost entirely from scratch and he knows how to maintain it so we should all be able to.

Fred


Regardless of if you checked your house's electrical system, if some dies of electrocution in your house, you bear some reasonability/liability. So what is your point? A gun is made to fire a projectile, its a much different thing that the electricity in your house. If you kill someone in a car accident because you didn't check your brakes, its your fault. Whether or not you knew how to or not. These are all very different examples from a gun though.
 
M564038
Posts: 798
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:42 pm

No actually, at least in civilized parts of the world, you hire an expert to do and certify your electricity-system. Doing otherwise would be illegal, and you are not allowed to second guess, modify or re-do the experts work in any way. Someone manage to electrocute themselves on that system? There is no way to eliminate accidents completely from any system, but at least there is no liability.

Same with brakes. If I have adhered to service protocol and not modified anything post the EU check every vehicle must undergo for road worthiness, I have very limited liability if I didn’t do anything wrong to cause the accident.

bpatus297 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

But, an actor given a gun does have the ability to check and confirm the gun is safe. It’s a simple process, not at all like checking the engine mounts, more like checking the engineer’s data—in both cases there exists a procedure to prevent the error from becoming catastrophic. AA 191’s crew had no way of knowing, Baldwin and other similar cases had a three second procedure to confirm it was safe. Not at all like AA 191’s pilots.


Checking for earth faults is also a very short simple procedure but isn't done on your home wiring, you said you didn't know how to, I do, so so should you (why would being an enthusiast matter?)

I would agree that it is a good idea to check a gun is empty before using it. This is what I do with mine (used to when I had time and there was less heather mite). What I don't get however is the assumptions that everyone should have the same level of knowledge as an enthusiast has be able to make sure that a gun is safe. I would agree that what Baldwin did was stupid, some people regarded what happened in SQ006 was stupid of the pilots but that doesn't help because people behave in the ways they behave and can be regarded by many different people as stupid. It doesn't do anything for those who will be shot by 'stupid' people in the future be that on a film set or by their toddler or by just not doing it right. In these situations people are not stupid, they are just being people and there are many hundreds of accidental shootings every year because of these types of things and putting it down to "stupid" is quite frankly a sad place to think from.

Understanding why these things happen and prevent them from happening is the key. Imagine if we were this moronic on car safety, everyone should "just know" how to keep their car maintained. everyone should "just know" what is an appropriate speed, everyone should "just know" when they can drive a car safely, everyone should "just know" if they have had too much alcohol to drive and deal with the ramifications later, it is after all, so simple. My friend Andy built a car of his own design almost entirely from scratch and he knows how to maintain it so we should all be able to.

Fred


Regardless of if you checked your house's electrical system, if some dies of electrocution in your house, you bear some reasonability/liability. So what is your point? A gun is made to fire a projectile, its a much different thing that the electricity in your house. If you kill someone in a car accident because you didn't check your brakes, its your fault. Whether or not you knew how to or not. These are all very different examples from a gun though.

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