Sheriff: Alec Baldwin fired shot on movie set that killed woman

DIRECTFLT · Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:52 am

https://apnews.com/article/entertainmen ... 1fdaecca79

A prop firearm discharged by veteran actor Alec Baldwin, who is producing and starring in a Western movie, killed his director of photography and injured the director Thursday at the movie set outside Santa Fe, authorities said.

Santa Fe County Sheriff’s officials said Halyna Hutchins, director of photography for the movie “Rust,” and director Joel Souza were shot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squib_load

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blank_(cartridge)#Fatal_accidents

Dutchy · Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:21 am

Sounds like a movie plot, but happened in real life. Bizar incident if it is an accident (and no reason to suspect otherwise) and very tragic for everyone involved.

art · Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:48 am

Tragic but I don't understand how the weapon was fired twice. (My assumption because two people were struck).

jetwet1 · Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:00 am

Same thing happened on The Crow killing Brandon Lee, sad accident.

casinterest · Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:26 pm

Sad situation. My condolences to all those affected by the loss. The death of Halyna Hutchins will be difficult for her family and friends
Joel Souza , the director is currently in emergency care.

More on those that were shot.

https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/ ... 69ce5.html

I have to imagine whoever touched that gun, the blanks, and loaded it will be under investigation. As well as an investigation into the blanks themselves.

johns624 · Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:03 pm

It doesn't make sense. So many gun rules were broken that it's not funny. All guns are loaded...don't point your gun at anyone...no live ammo on the set, etc. etc.

lightsaber · Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:42 pm

I agree with johns624, the gun rules were not followed. I like to phrase:
1. Treat every gun as if it is loaded, until you verify yourself, because they are.
2. Only point a gun at a target you intend to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to fire.
4. Be certain of your backstop as that is what stops the bullets.

This shows negligence. Live ammo on a set must be tightly controlled.

Seriously, I can watch a friend clear a gun and when handed to me, I cannot stop myself from verifying load status because that is so ingrained in me.

Serious question:
Was this a bodyguard's gun?

Lightsaber

Aaron747 · Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:50 pm

johns624 wrote:
It doesn't make sense. So many gun rules were broken that it's not funny. All guns are loaded...don't point your gun at anyone...no live ammo on the set, etc. etc.

This is also a union work environment where protocols around who handles what and when are quite strict. If firearm props aren't your job, you don't touch them, etc. Somewhere and somehow the protocol chain must have been broken.

bpatus297 · Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:23 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I agree with johns624, the gun rules were not followed. I like to phrase:
1. Treat every gun as if it is loaded, until you verify yourself, because they are.
2. Only point a gun at a target you intend to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to fire.
4. Be certain of your backstop as that is what stops the bullets.

This shows negligence. Live ammo on a set must be tightly controlled.

Seriously, I can watch a friend clear a gun and when handed to me, I cannot stop myself from verifying load status because that is so ingrained in me.

Serious question:
Was this a bodyguard's gun?

Lightsaber

How is live ammo even allowed anywhere close to a set? Boggles my mind.

Aesma · Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:50 pm

I'm reading it was a single "live round". So one shot killed one and maimed another.

casinterest · Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:57 pm

Aesma wrote:
I'm reading it was a single "live round". So one shot killed one and maimed another.

Yeah, I am reading now that the propmaster was not "union". There is going to be hell to pay for a lot of people.

FGITD · Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:00 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I'm reading it was a single "live round". So one shot killed one and maimed another.

Yeah, I am reading now that the propmaster was not "union". There is going to be hell to pay for a lot of people.

Particularly given how much labor unrest there is in that industry right now. Threats to go on strike due to conditions etc. Hard to argue against that when someone literally gets shot and killed on a set

System07 · Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:04 pm

Aesma wrote:
I'm reading it was a single "live round". So one shot killed one and maimed another.

Do you have any article saying this? “Live” could mean a blank still. Let’s leave guessing till more details are revealed. For all we know it was a blank with something stuck in the barrel that became a projectile

casinterest · Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:18 pm

System07 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I'm reading it was a single "live round". So one shot killed one and maimed another.

Do you have any article saying this? “Live” could mean a blank still. Let’s leave guessing till more details are revealed. For all we know it was a blank with something stuck in the barrel that became a projectile

https://variety.com/2021/film/news/alec ... 235095349/

The prop gun that killed “Rust” cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and wounded director Joel Souza on during an on-set accident on Thursday contained a “live single round,” according to an email sent by IATSE Local 44 to its membership.

Additionally, the union says that New Mexico crew members staffed the props, set decoration, special effects and construction departments on “Rust,” not its members.

“A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halyna Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza,” the union told members. “Both were rushed to the hospital. Unfortunately, we lost Sister Hutchins who passed from the wound.”

System07 · Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:49 pm

casinterest wrote:
System07 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I'm reading it was a single "live round". So one shot killed one and maimed another.

Do you have any article saying this? “Live” could mean a blank still. Let’s leave guessing till more details are revealed. For all we know it was a blank with something stuck in the barrel that became a projectile

https://variety.com/2021/film/news/alec ... 235095349/

The prop gun that killed “Rust” cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and wounded director Joel Souza on during an on-set accident on Thursday contained a “live single round,” according to an email sent by IATSE Local 44 to its membership.

Additionally, the union says that New Mexico crew members staffed the props, set decoration, special effects and construction departments on “Rust,” not its members.

“A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halyna Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza,” the union told members. “Both were rushed to the hospital. Unfortunately, we lost Sister Hutchins who passed from the wound.”

Thank you for that. I wonder still how accurate that is. That was written around 1030am eastern which was 5 hours ago and I hadn’t heard major outlets saying it was specifically a bullet that was fired. Anyway it’s tragic and I’m sure we’re all curious to know more. Seems pretty obvious AB had no idea what was about to happen and he’ll have to live with that guilt the rest of his life. Of course condolences to the deceased and injured

StarAC17 · Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:01 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I agree with johns624, the gun rules were not followed. I like to phrase:
1. Treat every gun as if it is loaded, until you verify yourself, because they are.
2. Only point a gun at a target you intend to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to fire.
4. Be certain of your backstop as that is what stops the bullets.

This shows negligence. Live ammo on a set must be tightly controlled.

Seriously, I can watch a friend clear a gun and when handed to me, I cannot stop myself from verifying load status because that is so ingrained in me.

Serious question:
Was this a bodyguard's gun?

Lightsaber

How is live ammo even allowed anywhere close to a set? Boggles my mind.

Could this be a situation where (assuming it was a pistol) that there was a magazine full of blanks and there was a live round in the chamber.
Excuse my ignorance but I know next to nothing about guns.

Still its very much gross negligence and probably involuntary manslaughter. I don't think Baldwin will go to jail for this but will likely be on probation for some time.

Aesma · Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:20 pm

System07 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I'm reading it was a single "live round". So one shot killed one and maimed another.

Do you have any article saying this? “Live” could mean a blank still. Let’s leave guessing till more details are revealed. For all we know it was a blank with something stuck in the barrel that became a projectile

Here is my source : https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/o ... n-film-set

I agree that live is ambiguous as what we want to know is if there was a bullet, not an explosive charge, which is expected. Seeing the result though it's almost certain the answer is yes.

johns624 · Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:14 pm

Aesma wrote:
System07 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I'm reading it was a single "live round". So one shot killed one and maimed another.

Do you have any article saying this? “Live” could mean a blank still. Let’s leave guessing till more details are revealed. For all we know it was a blank with something stuck in the barrel that became a projectile

Here is my source : https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/o ... n-film-set

I agree that live is ambiguous as what we want to know is if there was a bullet, not an explosive charge, which is expected. Seeing the result though it's almost certain the answer is yes.

A live round implies there was a bullet. If it was a live round, it was not a blank round with just powder. Small arms cartridges don't have an explosive charge, just primer and powder.
As an aside, people are dredging up tweets that Baldwin posted in the past that will come back to haunt him. In one, commenting on a police shooting during a struggle in Huntington Beach, he says "how it must feel to wrongfully kill someone". In another about Liz Cheney "she talks and seems so much like her father. I wonder if she's ever accidentally shot a good friend of hers in the face".

System07 · Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:17 pm

Aesma wrote:
System07 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I'm reading it was a single "live round". So one shot killed one and maimed another.

Do you have any article saying this? “Live” could mean a blank still. Let’s leave guessing till more details are revealed. For all we know it was a blank with something stuck in the barrel that became a projectile

Here is my source : https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/o ... n-film-set

I agree that live is ambiguous as what we want to know is if there was a bullet, not an explosive charge, which is expected. Seeing the result though it's almost certain the answer is yes.

Yeah it’s really ambiguous. They keep saying “struck fatally” but not “by a bullet”. It’s just interesting. We’ll find out soon enough I’m sure. But you’re right it seems obvious there was a primer and powder but the rest is vague in my opinion

johns624 · Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:41 pm

System07 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
System07 wrote:

Do you have any article saying this? “Live” could mean a blank still. Let’s leave guessing till more details are revealed. For all we know it was a blank with something stuck in the barrel that became a projectile

Here is my source : https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/o ... n-film-set

I agree that live is ambiguous as what we want to know is if there was a bullet, not an explosive charge, which is expected. Seeing the result though it's almost certain the answer is yes.

Yeah it’s really ambiguous. They keep saying “struck fatally” but not “by a bullet”. It’s just interesting. We’ll find out soon enough I’m sure. But you’re right it seems obvious there was a primer and powder but the rest is vague in my opinion

Nothing other than a bullet could have the velocity and energy to pass through and kill one person and wound another.

GalaxyFlyer · Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:54 pm

johns624 wrote:
System07 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Here is my source : https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/o ... n-film-set

I agree that live is ambiguous as what we want to know is if there was a bullet, not an explosive charge, which is expected. Seeing the result though it's almost certain the answer is yes.

Yeah it’s really ambiguous. They keep saying “struck fatally” but not “by a bullet”. It’s just interesting. We’ll find out soon enough I’m sure. But you’re right it seems obvious there was a primer and powder but the rest is vague in my opinion
Nothing other than a bullet could have the velocity and energy to pass through and kill one person and wound another.

That’s true, but we don’t know that’s what happened. Could have been a blanks and the wadding material and powder residue stuck the director. He wasn’t listed in serious condition and not long in the ER. Not saying it couldn’t be bullet, but no facts in evidence.

Brings up question, what was Alec doing pointing a gun at a non-actor in the scene? Why did he pull the trigger, if he wasn’t in an active scene being filmed? Why was the gun in his hand, if he wasn’t in scene? But, we do know, he pulled the trigger, so he killed the cinematographer. Some ‘splaining to do. Guns, like flying, look simple to those who don’t know what they’re talking about.

LCDFlight · Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:10 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I agree with johns624, the gun rules were not followed. I like to phrase:
1. Treat every gun as if it is loaded, until you verify yourself, because they are.
2. Only point a gun at a target you intend to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to fire.
4. Be certain of your backstop as that is what stops the bullets.

This shows negligence. Live ammo on a set must be tightly controlled.

Seriously, I can watch a friend clear a gun and when handed to me, I cannot stop myself from verifying load status because that is so ingrained in me.

Serious question:
Was this a bodyguard's gun?

Lightsaber

I find it 98% probable that neither Alec Baldwin, nor the director of photography, nor the director, had the foggiest clue about gun safety. And yet, there they were, playing with a dangerous weapon like idiots.

Baldwin is a COMPLETE idiot, which is why he was so good at playing Trump.

johns624 · Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:18 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I agree with johns624, the gun rules were not followed. I like to phrase:
1. Treat every gun as if it is loaded, until you verify yourself, because they are.
2. Only point a gun at a target you intend to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to fire.
4. Be certain of your backstop as that is what stops the bullets.

This shows negligence. Live ammo on a set must be tightly controlled.

Seriously, I can watch a friend clear a gun and when handed to me, I cannot stop myself from verifying load status because that is so ingrained in me.

Serious question:
Was this a bodyguard's gun?

Lightsaber

I find it 98% probable that neither Alec Baldwin, nor the director of photography, nor the director, had the foggiest clue about gun safety. And yet, there they were, playing with a dangerous weapon like idiots.

Baldwin is a COMPLETE idiot, which is why he was so good at playing Trump.

Not to mention that he's another antigunner who uses guns in his movies to make his money.

Newark727 · Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:29 pm

johns624 wrote:
Not to mention that he's another antigunner who uses guns in his movies to make his money.

It's difficult to imagine a scenario where Baldwin isn't at fault. That said, it didn't take you long to climb up on your hobby horse, did it? Baldwin's politics aren't at issue here - only his (very likely) failings regarding safety. I'm pretty sure pro-2A people have had negligent discharges too.

NIKV69 · Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:47 pm

Aesma wrote:
System07 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I'm reading it was a single "live round". So one shot killed one and maimed another.

Do you have any article saying this? “Live” could mean a blank still. Let’s leave guessing till more details are revealed. For all we know it was a blank with something stuck in the barrel that became a projectile

Here is my source : https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/o ... n-film-set

I agree that live is ambiguous as what we want to know is if there was a bullet, not an explosive charge, which is expected. Seeing the result though it's almost certain the answer is yes.

If they were close quarters and he thought they were blanks he may have fire many times and thus two people could have been hit with whatever.

LCDFlight · Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:52 pm

Newark727 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Not to mention that he's another antigunner who uses guns in his movies to make his money.

It's difficult to imagine a scenario where Baldwin isn't at fault. That said, it didn't take you long to climb up on your hobby horse, did it? Baldwin's politics aren't at issue here - only his (very likely) failings regarding safety. I'm pretty sure pro-2A people have had negligent discharges too.

It’s true this is about a shooting, not about politics. But this person is a prominent voice in politics. A stupid voice. Soon, he will be preaching to us all about gun safety, as if he is now an expert.

People are going to re-evaluate Baldwin for this. The guy has always been a toxic narcissist.

Aaron747 · Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:57 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Not to mention that he's another antigunner who uses guns in his movies to make his money.

It's difficult to imagine a scenario where Baldwin isn't at fault. That said, it didn't take you long to climb up on your hobby horse, did it? Baldwin's politics aren't at issue here - only his (very likely) failings regarding safety. I'm pretty sure pro-2A people have had negligent discharges too.

It’s true this is about a shooting, not about politics. But this person is a prominent voice in politics. A stupid voice. Soon, he will be preaching to us all about gun safety, as if he is now an expert.

People are going to re-evaluate Baldwin for this. The guy has always been a toxic narcissist.

Dime a dozen in the industry. He is to the Hollywood left what James Woods is to the right - people just obsessed with hearing their own voice.

GalaxyFlyer · Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:24 am

As some one said, politics is for ugly people who can’t act.

His politics does matter to this degree, vociferously anti-firearm person who, in his ignorance, kills someone with a gun.

Aesma · Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:31 am

LCDFlight wrote:
I find it 98% probable that neither Alec Baldwin, nor the director of photography, nor the director, had the foggiest clue about gun safety. And yet, there they were, playing with a dangerous weapon like idiots.

Baldwin is a COMPLETE idiot, which is why he was so good at playing Trump.

Why should they know about gun safety ? It's not their job, and if it's not their hobby, then no reason to know or care.

Newark727 · Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:40 am

Aesma wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
I find it 98% probable that neither Alec Baldwin, nor the director of photography, nor the director, had the foggiest clue about gun safety. And yet, there they were, playing with a dangerous weapon like idiots.

Baldwin is a COMPLETE idiot, which is why he was so good at playing Trump.

Why should they know about gun safety ? It's not their job, and if it's not their hobby, then no reason to know or care.

If you're going to handle a gun on set, you should at least get the basics - treat every gun as if it's loaded, don't point it at anything you don't intend to shoot at, etc. (I mean, I've never even touched a gun, and I've got those two purely from cultural osmosis.) But then again, there's a difference between knowing safety rules and following them, and plenty of people who know but don't bother to follow. Often the pertinent question is finding out why they don't.

GalaxyFlyer · Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:00 am

Where i shoot, “sweep”, that is, let an unloaded muzzle pass, a shooter and you’ll be spoken to the first, taken to the parking lot the second, never to return.

FGITD · Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:12 am

Agree on the gun safety principles, but the problem is that this is a movie. The gun is going to be pointed at people, and handled like a prop. There’s going to be take after take after take, and time in between. If you handle the weapons with every precaution you would at a range, you’ll never see another gun in television or movies.

Hand Baldwin (or most actors) a live weapon and I pretty much guarantee he handles it with care. Give him a prop gun that he’s most likely been using for days or weeks every day while filming…and it’s a different story. From his perspective as an actor, he had no reason to believe the gun would be capable of killing someone because there’s literally an entire department that’s supposed to be committed to making sure that doesn’t happen.

But given that there had been accidental discharges previously, it begs the question…who was in charge of set safety? Because they’re the ones that failed here.

My question is why not just digitally add the effects? No one would notice

Aaron747 · Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:25 am

LCDFlight wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I agree with johns624, the gun rules were not followed. I like to phrase:
1. Treat every gun as if it is loaded, until you verify yourself, because they are.
2. Only point a gun at a target you intend to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to fire.
4. Be certain of your backstop as that is what stops the bullets.

This shows negligence. Live ammo on a set must be tightly controlled.

Seriously, I can watch a friend clear a gun and when handed to me, I cannot stop myself from verifying load status because that is so ingrained in me.

Serious question:
Was this a bodyguard's gun?

Lightsaber

I find it 98% probable that neither Alec Baldwin, nor the director of photography, nor the director, had the foggiest clue about gun safety. And yet, there they were, playing with a dangerous weapon like idiots.

Baldwin is a COMPLETE idiot, which is why he was so good at playing Trump.

The director will have at least baseline knowledge of set safety and will consult SMEs when necessary on props, staging, driving, heat/electricity - any pertinent safety items. There are literally several union propmaster and safety officer positions on any large production for then to consult with.

petertenthije · Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:30 am

FGITD wrote:
My question is why not just digitally add the effects? No one would notice

It's more expensive then using real guns with blanks. Simple as that. Maybe this incident is going to change that (insurance premiums!), but that's something only time will tell.

DarkSnowyNight · Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:37 am

LCDFlight wrote:

People are going to re-evaluate Baldwin for this. The guy has always been a toxic narcissist.

Why? He makes money for the right people and the people who have a problem with his politics are not relevant.

Being narcissistic is a plus in this business, and not a liability. Why would you even show up for a set call if you do not believe you are the best person for the job? Those jobs are listed as O-Level for a reason.

So that will not slow his work down either.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
As some one said, politics is for ugly people who can’t act.

With exceptions such as Jacinda Ardern, this is very true.

Aaron747 wrote:
Dime a dozen in the industry. He is to the Hollywood left what James Woods is to the right - people just obsessed with hearing their own voice.

James Woods is only 'political' because he literally has to be. Long known for being a general creep and a devout fan of statutory rape, he also has well known issues taking direction and even such basic things as showing up on time. Or at all. The Gersh Agency fired him —years ago now— because he was worthless, not for his supposed and hastily adopted political views. He uses that as an excuse for being utterly unemployable, but if it were truly a politics issue, people like Vince Vaughn, Gary Sinise, Candice Cameron, etc would not be doing far better than he.

While Alec Baldwin has well known personality issues and doubtless does not mix well with asynchophants, but he would not be worth six times what James Woods is if they were really comparable.

I also agree that First Person voice obsessions are not uncommon in this business, but experience tells me you actually see far more of that with Production and Creative than with Talent.

Newark727 wrote:
If you're going to handle a gun on set, you should at least get the basics - treat every gun as if it's loaded, don't point it at anything you intend to shoot at, etc. (I mean, I've never even touched a gun, and I've got those two purely from cultural osmosis.) But then again, there's a difference between knowing safety rules and following them, and plenty of people who know but don't bother to follow. Often the pertinent question is finding out why they don't.

This probably sums things best. We do not know everything yet, but it is clearly important to know what is happening with 100 percent clarity when creating these scenes. From what I have read, it appears that this occurred during the construction and production of a scene centered around a Second Person Gunshot POV. This would be where an actor points a weapon at the camera and discharges it, for clarity.

It is not unusual for this to require several takes —and always at least three— but it will be interesting to see how this was able to happen.

A tragedy, to be sure.

System07 · Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:39 am

FGITD wrote:
Agree on the gun safety principles, but the problem is that this is a movie. The gun is going to be pointed at people, and handled like a prop. There’s going to be take after take after take, and time in between. If you handle the weapons with every precaution you would at a range, you’ll never see another gun in television or movies.

Hand Baldwin (or most actors) a live weapon and I pretty much guarantee he handles it with care. Give him a prop gun that he’s most likely been using for days or weeks every day while filming…and it’s a different story. From his perspective as an actor, he had no reason to believe the gun would be capable of killing someone because there’s literally an entire department that’s supposed to be committed to making sure that doesn’t happen.

But given that there had been accidental discharges previously, it begs the question…who was in charge of set safety? Because they’re the ones that failed here.

My question is why not just digitally add the effects? No one would notice

Your last sentence is so intriguing. I literally was just messaging a few minutes ago with a family member that does visual effects for large productions and bid on this movie. They didn’t get it. But he said this could’ve been avoided had they got it

DarkSnowyNight · Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:54 am

Aaron747 wrote:

The director will have at least baseline knowledge of set safety and will consult SMEs when necessary on props, staging, driving, heat/electricity - any pertinent safety items. There are literally several union propmaster and safety officer positions on any large production for then to consult with.

On set, those are called armorers. They are now represented by their own guild as well.

And yes, you are right, there is no way a Director, Principle Actor, Stunt Co, and CSA do not know exactly what is happening.

petertenthije wrote:
FGITD wrote:
My question is why not just digitally add the effects? No one would notice
It's more expensive then using real guns with blanks. Simple as that. Maybe this incident is going to change that (insurance premiums!), but that's something only time will tell.

Historically, that is true, but it is becoming less so. Besides, the way budgets are structured is very 'use it or lose it', so if there is slack —and there often is— no reason not to use it.

FGITD wrote:
The gun is going to be pointed at people, and handled like a prop. There’s going to be take after take after take, and time in between. If you handle the weapons with every precaution you would at a range, you’ll never see another gun in television or movies.

You actually do not point it at people. Even on tight shots, there will always be an offset. This is not hard to film around, but it has been a rule since before my parents were born and is well known.

FGITD wrote:
Hand Baldwin (or most actors) a live weapon and I pretty much guarantee he handles it with care. Give him a prop gun that he’s most likely been using for days or weeks every day while filming…and it’s a different story. From his perspective as an actor, he had no reason to believe the gun would be capable of killing someone because there’s literally an entire department that’s supposed to be committed to making sure that doesn’t happen.

No one is going to jeopardize a career like his goofing around with a loaded weapon.

I get that this is an airliner website so I am not astonished people do not know much about what happens on a set. Logical. But having the ability to directly compare one career to another, I can see that safety is typically a much greater concern on set than what you see in aviation. The fact that these things almost never happen should by itself make that clear, but we can rest assured that this will be seen as a big deal by the people who matter in this business.

bpatus297 · Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:00 am

StarAC17 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I agree with johns624, the gun rules were not followed. I like to phrase:
1. Treat every gun as if it is loaded, until you verify yourself, because they are.
2. Only point a gun at a target you intend to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to fire.
4. Be certain of your backstop as that is what stops the bullets.

This shows negligence. Live ammo on a set must be tightly controlled.

Seriously, I can watch a friend clear a gun and when handed to me, I cannot stop myself from verifying load status because that is so ingrained in me.

Serious question:
Was this a bodyguard's gun?

Lightsaber

How is live ammo even allowed anywhere close to a set? Boggles my mind.

Could this be a situation where (assuming it was a pistol) that there was a magazine full of blanks and there was a live round in the chamber.
Excuse my ignorance but I know next to nothing about guns.

Still its very much gross negligence and probably involuntary manslaughter. I don't think Baldwin will go to jail for this but will likely be on probation for some time.

Could.be the situation, but live ammo shouldn't be anywhere near the set.

I don't see Baldwin being charged with anything, he wasn't necessarily negligent, he was acting and I assume pretending to shot somwone. The prop guy on the other hand.

DIRECTFLT · Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:20 am

Was the prop gun a shotgun?? What exactly constitutes an "accidental discharge?"

Some close up movie takes are intentionally done with the shooter aiming directly at the camera, where the cinematographer and the director are situated.

What was brought out on one of the evening entertainment news shows, was that after the union crew walked off the job, due to poor working conditions (under sweetie Alec Baldwin--Imagine that!!), to keep the shoot moving, Alec (the Producer of the film) had non-union people used. And so, it's speculated that those non-union people were not as excellent in doing their jobs as the union people. The people involved in the handling and care of the prop firearms, for example???

StarAC17 · Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:34 am

bpatus297 wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

How is live ammo even allowed anywhere close to a set? Boggles my mind.

Could this be a situation where (assuming it was a pistol) that there was a magazine full of blanks and there was a live round in the chamber.
Excuse my ignorance but I know next to nothing about guns.

Still its very much gross negligence and probably involuntary manslaughter. I don't think Baldwin will go to jail for this but will likely be on probation for some time.

Could.be the situation, but live ammo shouldn't be anywhere near the set.

I don't see Baldwin being charged with anything, he wasn't necessarily negligent, he was acting and I assume pretending to shot somwone. The prop guy on the other hand.

Excuse my ignorance around guns. I'm assuming this is some kind of semi-automatic pistol like a cop would carry. Could it be possible that someone took this off the set to take to say a range. Loaded it will real ammo and left one in the chamber.

Perhaps this was a firearms expert that had the gun on set and made a lethal mistake.

I would assume movie sets have firearm experts that the studios hire as consultants.

This begs the question. Why are they still using blanks when they could use to scale toy cap guns (like I played with as a kid) and dub the actual sound in post production instead of using blanks.

Methinks this will happen now going forward.

DIRECTFLT · Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:51 am

Warrant: Baldwin didn’t know weapon contained live round

https://apnews.com/article/entertainmen ... 06cd3cbee9

An assistant director unwittingly handed Alec Baldwin a loaded weapon and told him it was safe to use in the moments before the actor fatally shot a cinematographer, court records released Friday show. The gun was one of three that the film’s armorer, Hannah Gutierrez, had set on a cart outside the wooden structure where a scene was being acted, according to the records.

Assistant director Dave Halls grabbed the gun from the cart and brought it inside to Baldwin, unaware that it was loaded with live rounds, a detective wrote in the search warrant application. “Cold gun,” the assistant director announced, according to a search warrant filed in a Santa Fe court.

----------------------------------------

Is a "live round" an actual round, or some kind of black or dummy round?? I'm confused about the terms used in the prop business.

Aaron747 · Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:56 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Warrant: Baldwin didn’t know weapon contained live round

https://apnews.com/article/entertainmen ... 06cd3cbee9

An assistant director unwittingly handed Alec Baldwin a loaded weapon and told him it was safe to use in the moments before the actor fatally shot a cinematographer, court records released Friday show. The gun was one of three that the film’s armorer, Hannah Gutierrez, had set on a cart outside the wooden structure where a scene was being acted, according to the records.

Assistant director Dave Halls grabbed the gun from the cart and brought it inside to Baldwin, unaware that it was loaded with live rounds, a detective wrote in the search warrant application. “Cold gun,” the assistant director announced, according to a search warrant filed in a Santa Fe court.

----------------------------------------

Is a "live round" an actual round, or some kind of black or dummy round?? I'm confused about the terms used in the prop business.

Not a term used in the prop business. Reading comprehension: unaware that it was loaded with live rounds, a detective wrote in the search warrant application

'Live round' in that sentence is the term used by the detective who authored the warrant.

fr8mech · Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:41 am

StarAC17 wrote:
Excuse my ignorance around guns. I'm assuming this is some kind of semi-automatic pistol like a cop would carry. Could it be possible that someone took this off the set to take to say a range. Loaded it will real ammo and left one in the chamber.

The movie is set in Kansas in the 1880's. Semi-auto pistols were non-existent then. So, the gun in question would be a period revolver. Something like a Colt Peacemaker or Army 1860.

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Is a "live round" an actual round, or some kind of black or dummy round?? I'm confused about the terms used in the prop business.

What I consider a "live round" is a round that is capable of discharging a bullet when fired.

Quick anatomy lesson of a "round". A round is made up of the projectile (bullet), casing, powder and primer. A blank will be missing the bullet. In its place will be some kind of wadding. Cloth, wax, paper, etc. Something that allows the pressure to build up and produce the desired sound and muzzle flash. That something does become a projectile.

DIRECTFLT wrote:
What exactly constitutes an "accidental discharge?"

I don't believe in them...unless the firearm malfunctions in a way that was unpredictable based on the apparent condition of the firearm.

Anything else is a negligent discharge.

Aesma · Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:45 am

Semantics aside, and even if you want/need the effect of a real gun on film, I'm sure prop guns could be manufactured/modified so it's impossible to put a complete cartridge in them.

About unions, I thought they were bad, DIRECTFLT ? Isn't there some kind of strike action going on all over Hollywood and not just this specific movie ?

GalaxyFlyer · Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:52 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Warrant: Baldwin didn’t know weapon contained live round

https://apnews.com/article/entertainmen ... 06cd3cbee9

An assistant director unwittingly handed Alec Baldwin a loaded weapon and told him it was safe to use in the moments before the actor fatally shot a cinematographer, court records released Friday show. The gun was one of three that the film’s armorer, Hannah Gutierrez, had set on a cart outside the wooden structure where a scene was being acted, according to the records.

Assistant director Dave Halls grabbed the gun from the cart and brought it inside to Baldwin, unaware that it was loaded with live rounds, a detective wrote in the search warrant application. “Cold gun,” the assistant director announced, according to a search warrant filed in a Santa Fe court.

----------------------------------------

Is a "live round" an actual round, or some kind of black or dummy round?? I'm confused about the terms used in the prop business.

Not a term used in the prop business. Reading comprehension: unaware that it was loaded with live rounds, a detective wrote in the search warrant application

'Live round' in that sentence is the term used by the detective who authored the warrant.

Which indicates the ER or investigation discovered a bullet somewhere. I just read the NYT article on the shooting. The idea an armorer can hand someone a gun with only stating “cold gun” without the actor opening it, checking each chamber (SA types) is crazy. Hand me an open gun and verify its status, hand me closed one, be it a derringer or a howitzer, I’m gonna instinctively open it and check. What are they these amateurs?

johns624 · Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:25 pm

It appears that the film armorer was the daughter of a very well known quick-draw shooter--Thell Reed. You would think that she would know better.

lightsaber · Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:29 pm

The assistant director yelled out "cold gun" (unloaded) before hand gun to Alac Baldwin:
https://www.upi.com/amp/Top_News/US/202 ... 634993645/

This merits further investigation.
Somewhere the safety custody broke down.

Lightsaber

GalaxyFlyer · Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:35 pm

Yes with a person holding a gun who didn’t take care to se that it was unloaded.

Aesma · Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:42 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Hand me an open gun and verify its status, hand me closed one, be it a derringer or a howitzer, I’m gonna instinctively open it and check. What are they these amateurs?

You're in the military.

He's an actor.

fr8mech · Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:31 pm

Aesma wrote:
You're in the military.

He's an actor.

An actor that has handled firearms, prop or not, in the past. I have to agree with Galaxy here…hand me a firearm, and I’m going to check it to determine its condition. Anyone who handles a firearm, prop or not, should have at least a passing familiarity with rudimentary gun safety.

And why would someone call out “cold gun” without checking it themselves? Absent some criminal motive, complacency, that’s why. Complacency has killed more people than we can count.

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