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Kiwirob
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:19 am

Aesma wrote:
I'm not sure what game Putin is playing, but I'm thinking he's miscalculating. The same people he helps in the EU to gain influence/break up the EU, all these far right politicians, are the ones the most opposed to immigration (legal or illegal). So if voters associate Putin with the migrant crisis, that disqualifies his stooges in the EU.


Gotta ask where does Putin factor into this? You said it yourself the people he helps, the nationalist politicians are not pro immigration, there is no benefit to Putin if these guys lose power.
 
Galwayman
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:39 am

alm1 wrote:
Looks like TK folded:

Turkish Airlines will not accept citizens of Iraq, Syria and Yemen on flights to Minsk if they do not have diplomatic passports


http://www.uniindia.com/~/turkish-airli ... 60561.html


Of course they did, if TK was banned from the EU it's entire business case would collapse. A 3 month ban for Aeroflot would help focus minds quickly.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:51 am

Aesma wrote:
I'm not sure what game Putin is playing, but I'm thinking he's miscalculating. The same people he helps in the EU to gain influence/break up the EU, all these far right politicians, are the ones the most opposed to immigration (legal or illegal). So if voters associate Putin with the migrant crisis, that disqualifies his stooges in the EU.


Which stooges? Merkel, Orban or Macron? He has all bases covered in France and Germany.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:45 am

Galwayman wrote:
alm1 wrote:
Looks like TK folded:

Turkish Airlines will not accept citizens of Iraq, Syria and Yemen on flights to Minsk if they do not have diplomatic passports


http://www.uniindia.com/~/turkish-airli ... 60561.html


Of course they did, if TK was banned from the EU it's entire business case would collapse. A 3 month ban for Aeroflot would help focus minds quickly.

A ban on Aeroflot would probably result in a ban on other airlines overflying Russian airspace.
 
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MetalNeutral
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:47 am

readytotaxi wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
alm1 wrote:


Of course they did, if TK was banned from the EU it's entire business case would collapse. A 3 month ban for Aeroflot would help focus minds quickly.


A ban on Aeroflot would probably result in a ban on other airlines overflying Russian airspace.


Which in turn would dry up Russian (a.k.a. Aeroflot) pockets of the overflight fees that airlines are dearly paying.

Cheers,
MN
 
kalvado
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:53 pm

Aesma wrote:
kalvado wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:


Sorry, that is a nonsense argument. Globalisation has created wealth across the globe, opening new markets and bringing more income to countries and its citizens than they had before, for the benefit of everyone. Even people in developed countries might look in envy at the standard of living in some very high-income countries, but it does not give them the automatic right to travel there to live and work and enjoy the benefits of those countries. They have to qualify for the legal right like anyone else. Sure, its harder on some than others, but globalisation and the opening of markets has eased the pressures lifting billions out of poverty. The EU is a political and economic block that has the right to defend the interests of its members, and allowing millions of economic migrants in, who are not genuine asylum seekers who have come directly from said land of persecution, is not deemed in its interests, in the same way it is difficult for EU citizens to work in other places in the world they may wish.

I am not arguing that globalization is good (or bad).
All I am saying is that there are people living in much poorer situation, who see much more wealthy countries making decisions for them - in case of Syria and Iraq decisions as simple as sending couple bombers to drop the payload.
They do see things as an injustice - and it is hard to argue that they got a short end of the stick. They are trying to correct that perceived injustice the way they can. Their ways have little to do with the laws - but they had no input in those laws, as well as in decisions to impose sanctions or send bombers which directly affected them.
If you think that letter of law "send them home" is going to resolve the situation, think again.


So they're so upset with "the west" that they want to live in "the west" ? That doesn't make a lot of sense, but if true, it's another reason to not accept them here ! It can only lead to bad outcomes.

they want thier "fair share" of wealth. We may argue for ages what "fair share" is; and those poor souls will have a different, very strong, yet still a very different opinion.
Even if we disagree with each other, we will be united in disagreeing with them, though.
Yes, $$ talks. Now there is another voice - now firearms talk. I don't know what would be the next voice, but I am a bit scared.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:22 pm

kalvado wrote:
Human rights yesterday.
EU is caught between declared principles of all humans born equal and reality of thousands desperate people on the border.
Because not all people are born equal. Some are born in EU as masters, and some are born in Iraq to get bombed at will.


At what point to the citizens of the EU, who've neither approved US or Iranian military operations in Iraq, nor really gotten to vote on transnational immigration policy, have a right to ensure that people entering their nations, and in many cases, availing themselves of social safety net goods, are properly vetted from a security and medical standpoint?
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:24 pm

N1120A wrote:
If the EU were to take military action against Belarus, what would Russia actually do? Retaliate? Bring the US into this? Over Belarusian hubris? This is one situation where a military option shouldn't be overlooked. The EU, especially France, should forcibly remove Lukashenko and dare Russia to do something.


The EU isn't in the position legally or practically to do this, and honestly, Putin would likely find such a move existential to his control of Russia.

Now, I'm sure the intelligence guys down in the basement of the Kremlin or Minsk or where ever are trying to sell the fantasy of an EU invasion of Belarus. But its not close to real.
 
737307
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:13 pm

N1120A wrote:
If the EU were to take military action against Belarus, what would Russia actually do? Retaliate? Bring the US into this? Over Belarusian hubris? This is one situation where a military option shouldn't be overlooked. The EU, especially France, should forcibly remove Lukashenko and dare Russia to do something.


That would be a grave mistake on the part of the EU, IMO. So let's not continue with this nonsensical fantasy.

Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I'm not sure what game Putin is playing, but I'm thinking he's miscalculating. The same people he helps in the EU to gain influence/break up the EU, all these far right politicians, are the ones the most opposed to immigration (legal or illegal). So if voters associate Putin with the migrant crisis, that disqualifies his stooges in the EU.


Gotta ask where does Putin factor into this? You said it yourself the people he helps, the nationalist politicians are not pro immigration, there is no benefit to Putin if these guys lose power.


It's called PDS ("Putin Derangement Syndrom"). People who suffer from this peddle endless conspiracy theories and blame all and everything on Putin.
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:18 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
alm1 wrote:


Of course they did, if TK was banned from the EU it's entire business case would collapse. A 3 month ban for Aeroflot would help focus minds quickly.

A ban on Aeroflot would probably result in a ban on other airlines overflying Russian airspace.


Most likely, but being banned from the EU would hurt Aeroflot significantly more than a few European airlines being forced to spend a little more money on fuel to Asian destinations.
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:06 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Turkey also needs to get tough and close it's borders to refugees.

The entire process is screwed, it was never intended to handle anywhere near the numbers that are either real or pretend refugees. It needs to stop.

Globalization was the policy west pushed for.
With more travel all over the world, more information flowing via internet, more long haul economic ties, and more warfare being deployed across thousands miles it is impossible to keep certain people at bay just because they happened to be born with the wrong passport.
Things will change a lot within next few decades. Not exactly sure what the change would be - but it will be major.


The globalisation of illegal immigrants and refugees was not what the west asked for.

WW2 happened, it resulted in the largest number of displaced people in human history, by 1950 the vast majority of those people had returned home and started rebuilding, back then there were very few options available, most of them had to return, they nowhere else to go, wtf aren't people today able to do the same thing?

If you country sucks, do something about don't just run away.

You can’t really blame them for running when a small number of countries in the EU make it so tempting to run knowing that once you get in, you’re most likely staying for years (and receiving benefits if the employment thing isn’t working out). Anyway, sticking to the potential airline ban, I think airlines flying to Minsk and elsewhere have a responsibility to ensure they’re not facilitating the illegal migration of desperate people to the EU, which in turn will lead to increased political and societal instability there.
 
kalvado
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:20 pm

dampfnudel wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Globalization was the policy west pushed for.
With more travel all over the world, more information flowing via internet, more long haul economic ties, and more warfare being deployed across thousands miles it is impossible to keep certain people at bay just because they happened to be born with the wrong passport.
Things will change a lot within next few decades. Not exactly sure what the change would be - but it will be major.


The globalisation of illegal immigrants and refugees was not what the west asked for.

WW2 happened, it resulted in the largest number of displaced people in human history, by 1950 the vast majority of those people had returned home and started rebuilding, back then there were very few options available, most of them had to return, they nowhere else to go, wtf aren't people today able to do the same thing?

If you country sucks, do something about don't just run away.

You can’t really blame them for running when a small number of countries in the EU make it so tempting to run knowing that once you get in, you’re most likely staying for years (and receiving benefits if the employment thing isn’t working out). Anyway, sticking to the potential airline ban, I think airlines flying to Minsk and elsewhere have a responsibility to ensure they’re not facilitating the illegal migration of desperate people to the EU, which in turn will lead to increased political and societal instability there.

Does Ryanair have any responsibility for transporting a journalist wanted in Belarus?
I am not talking about fairness of charges; it is strictly about how much airline should care about their pax background beyond them not being forced to travel, and being legal to disembark at the destination.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:14 am

prebennorholm wrote:
...I'm not pesimistic about the outcome. I may doubt that Erdogan even becomes involved.

TK is a commercial business which lives by selling tickets. They can make a lot of business selling domestic tickets to Turks within Turkey, but they will try hard not to exclude 500 million potential European customers. Getting a reputation of being The World's Primary Illegal Immigrant Smuggler Airline will do them no good in their everyday business.

They are already today some distance down that path, and there will be powers within the company which are already searching for the reverse gear.

I wrote the above comment here on this thread a couple of days ago. My assumptions were right. TK is a normal airline. They found the reverse gear. TK is no longer bringing Middle East war zone migrants to Minsk (except if they present a diplomatic passport).

That was a great step forward. Now if only TK ends flying TO, FROM, or OVER countries doing hijacking in the air, then TK has regained its position as full member of the club of prime quality airlines.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:24 am

Gravitas: Will 2,000 migrants trigger a war in Europe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NhC0WkNEfU

The European Union says it is being destabilized. The bloc claims Russia & Belarus have weaponized 2,000 migrants. Poland has stationed 15,000 troops to protect its borders. Will 2,000 migrants fleeing war trigger the next war?
 
64947
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:19 am

dampfnudel wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
Galwayman wrote:

Of course they did, if TK was banned from the EU it's entire business case would collapse. A 3 month ban for Aeroflot would help focus minds quickly.

A ban on Aeroflot would probably result in a ban on other airlines overflying Russian airspace.


Most likely, but being banned from the EU would hurt Aeroflot significantly more than a few European airlines being forced to spend a little more money on fuel to Asian destinations.


Aeroflot is the de-facto state airline of the Russian Federation, with a chunk of their shares owned by the government. In case of any "no-fly" war between the EU and the RF they will win. Either they will be told to suck it up or the government will throw some money at them and then tell them to suck it up.
 
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qf789
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:27 am

Please stick to the topic and leave the flamebait out of the discussion
 
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SR380
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:29 am

Most of Belavia E195s and B737 are leased through Irish leasing companies. How can they still lease it while the country is under sanctions? Can Irish companies seize the aircraft?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:14 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Gravitas: Will 2,000 migrants trigger a war in Europe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NhC0WkNEfU

The European Union says it is being destabilized. The bloc claims Russia & Belarus have weaponized 2,000 migrants. Poland has stationed 15,000 troops to protect its borders. Will 2,000 migrants fleeing war trigger the next war?


To answer the question posed, no. I can't go into it, can't give an analysis, because someone will take offence and all will be deleted.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:19 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
It's called PDS ("Putin Derangement Syndrom"). People who suffer from this peddle endless conspiracy theories and blame all and everything on Putin.


No, it's geopolitics. Lukashenko has a great dependency on the Russian leadership. Belarus is just a pon in the game.
 
SRQLOT
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:56 pm

Looks like one of the major players in transporting Syrian migrants is also out. Cham Wings Airlines of Syria is stopping all flights to Minsk as “Due to the current critical situation on the Belarus-Poland borders, and since the majority of Cham Wings’ passengers flying to Minsk are of Syrian nationality and that it is difficult for the company to distinguish between passengers flying to Belarus as their final destination, and passengers flying to Belarus as immigrants, Cham Wings Airlines has taken the decision to suspend its flights to Minsk National Airport effective today Saturday 13 November 2021.”

So with Turkish and Belavia refusing to fly Iraquis, Syrians, and Yemen passengers and now Cham Wings it should calm down a bit. Iraq is bringing back people out of Belarus too.

In Polish, Facebook post in English.
https://wydarzenia.interia.pl/zagranica ... Id,5643104
 
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TK105
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:48 am

The level of this discussion and hypocrisy of EU makes me sick. Some history lesson is a must for these “people” (some of the examples out of the long list):

1. Immigration of refugee Jews to Turkey in 1492 when king of Spain ordered Jews to leave Spain.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree

2. Exile of Swedish King and his people to Turkey as refugee in 1709.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_XII_of_Sweden

3. Immigration of GREEK refugees to Turkey during 2WW and Greek Civil War (I do not go into long list of Europeans who did the same during 2WW).
https://dergipark.org.tr/tr/download/ar ... ile/258467

and finally

Immigration of POLISH refugees to Turkey in 1842 which some of their decendents still live in Turkey.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonezköy

TK sold tickets to some travellers with legal traveling documents. TK did not lower ticket prices or gave away tickets for free. It was a legal business activity. The level of noise generated around this case as if Turkey had organized this refugee movement is a disgrace.

But in Turkey, the general opinion is that EU has a different agenda towards Turkey and Turkish Businesses. We are closely following and taking notes of every step they take:
https://thehill.com/opinion/internation ... on-ukraine
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:16 am

TK105 wrote:
But in Turkey, the general opinion is that EU has a different agenda towards Turkey and Turkish Businesses. We are closely following and taking notes of every step they take:
https://thehill.com/opinion/internation ... on-ukraine


As much as they would love to, Germany and France are not the EU... at least as long as the unanimous voting on foreign policy matters stands.
Their appeasement of Russia is beyond sickening. Putin seems to be too tempted to hummiliate Merkel before she finally leaves, that he basically laughed into her face when she begged him to do something about the illegal migrant crisis. So much for the "leverage" over Russia, thanks to Nord Stream 2 as her apologists claimed.

President Vladimir Putin brushed off a request by Chancellor Angela Merkel to exercise his influence over Belarus as the European Union prepares a fresh raft of sanctions against the regime in Minsk for channeling thousands of migrants to the bloc’s border


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... der-crisis
 
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Aesma
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:57 pm

TK105 wrote:
The level of this discussion and hypocrisy of EU makes me sick. Some history lesson is a must for these “people” (some of the examples out of the long list):

1. Immigration of refugee Jews to Turkey in 1492 when king of Spain ordered Jews to leave Spain.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree

2. Exile of Swedish King and his people to Turkey as refugee in 1709.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_XII_of_Sweden

3. Immigration of GREEK refugees to Turkey during 2WW and Greek Civil War (I do not go into long list of Europeans who did the same during 2WW).
https://dergipark.org.tr/tr/download/ar ... ile/258467

and finally

Immigration of POLISH refugees to Turkey in 1842 which some of their decendents still live in Turkey.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonezköy

TK sold tickets to some travellers with legal traveling documents. TK did not lower ticket prices or gave away tickets for free. It was a legal business activity. The level of noise generated around this case as if Turkey had organized this refugee movement is a disgrace.

But in Turkey, the general opinion is that EU has a different agenda towards Turkey and Turkish Businesses. We are closely following and taking notes of every step they take:
https://thehill.com/opinion/internation ... on-ukraine


None of the people in your examples used tourist visas and airplanes, via third countries, to take refuge, did they ? Did Turkey have a generous social safety net back then ?

As for the EU agenda towards Turkey, nothing new. Erdogan went from pro-European to wanting to be the new Sultan of a new Islamic caliphate, the two aren't compatible. He had no problem dealing with ISIS, buying oil from them, while they were ravaging neighboring countries, so he can hardly complain about refugees.
 
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TK105
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:05 pm

Aesma wrote:
None of the people in your examples used tourist visas and airplanes, via third countries, to take refuge, did they ? Did Turkey have a generous social safety net back then ?

Turkey sent ships for these people to travel. When they arrived in Turkey, they were given citizenship, free land, social-economical privileges and money from treasury in Ottoman period. During 2WW era, refugees were provided jobs at government institutions with a suitable salary. Compared to inhuman style of approach of EU, Turkey always did its best within its capabilities.

As for the EU agenda towards Turkey, nothing new.

Exactly.

Erdogan went from pro-European to wanting to be the new Sultan of a new Islamic caliphate, the two aren't compatible.

As Erdogan does not have a bright education, it took 10 years for him to understand hypocrisy of EU. He has a long list of frustrations (Cyprus, Iraq, Syria... just a few). He at the end understood that agreements, written or oral, do not mean any thing. Only way is to keep balance of power unfortunately... When power is balanced, it was discovered that he is a Sultan!

He had no problem dealing with ISIS, buying oil from them, while they were ravaging neighboring countries, so he can hardly complain about refugees.

Lots of gossips and false accusations. Do you have any solid proof that Turkish Government bought oil from ISIS, please share with us. If you can prove that his government did it, I'll be happy to support for an international trial.

But first lets start from this. Looting a country, oil smuggling:
https://www.voanews.com/a/extremism-wat ... 94040.html
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:47 pm

TK105 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
None of the people in your examples used tourist visas and airplanes, via third countries, to take refuge, did they ? Did Turkey have a generous social safety net back then ?

Turkey sent ships for these people to travel. When they arrived in Turkey, they were given citizenship, free land, social-economical privileges and money from treasury in Ottoman period. During 2WW era, refugees were provided jobs at government institutions with a suitable salary. Compared to inhuman style of approach of EU, Turkey always did its best within its capabilities.

As for the EU agenda towards Turkey, nothing new.

Exactly.

Erdogan went from pro-European to wanting to be the new Sultan of a new Islamic caliphate, the two aren't compatible.

As Erdogan does not have a bright education, it took 10 years for him to understand hypocrisy of EU. He has a long list of frustrations (Cyprus, Iraq, Syria... just a few). He at the end understood that agreements, written or oral, do not mean any thing. Only way is to keep balance of power unfortunately... When power is balanced, it was discovered that he is a Sultan!

He had no problem dealing with ISIS, buying oil from them, while they were ravaging neighboring countries, so he can hardly complain about refugees.

Lots of gossips and false accusations. Do you have any solid proof that Turkish Government bought oil from ISIS, please share with us. If you can prove that his government did it, I'll be happy to support for an international trial.

But first lets start from this. Looting a country, oil smuggling:
https://www.voanews.com/a/extremism-wat ... 94040.html


It is good to see someone putting forward a Turkish nationalist view. My take on it, with this, Turkey sees itself too much as a victim. Too bad, it is a nice country to visit and lots of opportunities. Turkey has a beneficiary status so it can trade far more easily with the EU than many other countries. And Turkey doesn't want to reform to join the EU, the EU has given millions annually to make the transition, for many many years. It is ok, not to reform, but then you choose not to be part of the EU. Don't blame the EU for that, that's the decision of the Turkish government. Membership rules are clear, if you don't want to conform to them, than no membership. Quite logical if you ask me.

To get back to the topic at hand: TK knew or should have known what those Iraqi, Syrian and Jemen people were going to do in Balarus. It doesn't matter if that part of the trip was legit or not. They were part of the human trafficking ring, willingly or not. Even Lukashenko admitted what he was doing, so no excuse there. TK only stopped after the EU treated to ban them from the EU.

What, in your view, should the EU have done, nothing? That would be quite naive. Sure, you seem to want to blame the EU for everything, but come'on did you seriously expect no reaction to these kinds of hybrid warfare form Belarus, with help from TK among them.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:15 am

TK105 wrote:
TK sold tickets to some travellers with legal traveling documents. TK did not lower ticket prices or gave away tickets for free. It was a legal business activity.

Nobody ever said it was illegal. Doing business is more than doing legal or illegal things. It's also about doing clever or stupid things.

TK decides where they want to fly which people.
EU decides which airlines fly to the EU.
It really is as simple as that.
If you pi$$ in EU's soup, then you are not invited for dinner.

TK chose to act cleverly, not stupidly, and did it fast. Well, a little slower than all other airlines, but still pretty fast. Good for them.
 
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TK105
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
It is good to see someone putting forward a Turkish nationalist view.

Sorry: I'll not fit into your shallow categories, please keep these categories for your own self.

My take on it, with this, Turkey sees itself too much as a victim. Too bad, it is a nice country to visit and lots of opportunities. Turkey has a beneficiary status so it can trade far more easily with the EU than many other countries. And Turkey doesn't want to reform to join the EU, the EU has given millions annually to make the transition, for many many years. It is ok, not to reform, but then you choose not to be part of the EU. Don't blame the EU for that, that's the decision of the Turkish government. Membership rules are clear, if you don't want to conform to them, than no membership. Quite logical if you ask me.

Turkey surely needs some reforms, but not necessarily the ones pushed by EU. For me EU is an oligarchic structure which claims to know what is good for your better than you... No, thank you. Please keep your uber standards to yourself.

What, in your view, should the EU have done, nothing? That would be quite naive. Sure, you seem to want to blame the EU for everything, but come'on did you seriously expect no reaction to these kinds of hybrid warfare form Belarus, with help from TK among them.

Stoping to interfere internal politics of Belarus can be a good starting point. As a second step, you can also start talking to Lokashenko administration.

prebennorholm wrote:
Nobody ever said it was illegal. Doing business is more than doing legal or illegal things. It's also about doing clever or stupid things.
TK decides where they want to fly which people.
EU decides which airlines fly to the EU.
It really is as simple as that.
If you pi$$ in EU's soup, then you are not invited for dinner.

Thanks for confirming me: Agreements or legality does not mean anything. You need to balance the power. (Noted....)
 
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par13del
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
It is good to see someone putting forward a Turkish nationalist view. My take on it, with this, Turkey sees itself too much as a victim. Too bad, it is a nice country to visit and lots of opportunities. Turkey has a beneficiary status so it can trade far more easily with the EU than many other countries. And Turkey doesn't want to reform to join the EU, the EU has given millions annually to make the transition, for many many years. It is ok, not to reform, but then you choose not to be part of the EU. Don't blame the EU for that, that's the decision of the Turkish government. Membership rules are clear, if you don't want to conform to them, than no membership. Quite logical if you ask me.

In relation to migrants heading towards the EU, the reforms that the EU requires nations to make just to trade with them also affect the lives of the local who see double standards, the restrictions / requirements placed on them do not exist in the EU, so to get out from under, why not head to the EU and be free?
The world is showing right now that the methods being implemented for trade is making corporations wealthy, developed governments wealthy and by their social programs, their citizens as well, but as in prior decades, the developing world resources and still being drained. How long have they been developing?
As TK has not lowered prices, the locals are making an investment of their savings to enter the EU illegally because in the long run, it is financially beneficial.
In the long run, my opinion, the only way this will change is when governments accept that until trade has a better financial ratio, people will always be on the move. Now if you look at some of the changes being touted for climate change, some folk are lining up to see if they can be used to slow down and prevent illegal immigration by returning air travel to the realm of the wealthy. Good luck with that, as is often said, it is not the destination but the journey.
 
Redd
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:16 pm

"The Iraqi government has said a first flight to repatriate its nationals who are among migrants stranded at the Belarus-Poland border will be organised on Thursday "on a voluntary basis".

"Iraq will operate a first flight for those who wish to return home voluntarily on the 18th of this month" from Belarus, foreign affairs ministry spokesman Ahmed al-Sahaf announced on television in broadcasts aired overnight."


https://www.euronews.com/2021/11/15/bel ... ion-flight
 
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Aesma
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:36 pm

par13del wrote:
the only way this will change is when governments accept that until trade has a better financial ratio, people will always be on the move.


Easier said than done. If we send money there, usually it only benefits the few not the many. Should we colonize these countries again ? Should we leave them alone ?

You mentioned the environment, there are stuff we're having made in developing countries, to the detriment of jobs in our developed countries, and the environment because of how stuff is made, and the need for long distance transport (think clothing, furniture, appliances, etc.). If we start making these again in our developed countries, it's positive for the environment, positive for employment, and negative for the developing countries...
 
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par13del
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:58 pm

Aesma wrote:
par13del wrote:
the only way this will change is when governments accept that until trade has a better financial ratio, people will always be on the move.


Easier said than done. If we send money there, usually it only benefits the few not the many. Should we colonize these countries again ? Should we leave them alone ?

You mentioned the environment, there are stuff we're having made in developing countries, to the detriment of jobs in our developed countries, and the environment because of how stuff is made, and the need for long distance transport (think clothing, furniture, appliances, etc.). If we start making these again in our developed countries, it's positive for the environment, positive for employment, and negative for the developing countries...

We know sending money does not work, as most former colonies have corrupt systems of governance, those systems were put in place to keep them in check, the military forces used to control empires were mostly few foreign officers and locals doing the heavy lifting, very few became republics with constitutions empowering their own people, for generations they were raised to always place others before their own, I fully agree with you that easier said than done. I am starting to think leaving them alone is best, like AA, until one accepts your situation, you cannot make the required changes.

As of now, why would a developed nation have items made in the developed world?
One is cost, due to the higher ethical standards in the developed world, you use the lower standards in the developing world to your benefit, then claim it is a local issue that workers are abused. In your clothes example, as the process of the materials became automated / mechanized, the number of jobs and their spin off effects became lower / less important than the price and profits to be made selling, as in all things, follow the money. Remember the sweat shops of kids making shoes in Asia, has that industry left?

Another is some of the technologies are potentially dangerous, better have others live under that shadow than your citizens - chemical production.
Since most developing countries are getting financing from the developed nations, it replaces "gun boat" diplomacy, the major issue facing developing nations financially is getting them to live within their means, once you don't and you pile up the debt, your future and in essence your society become fodder for those holding the loans.

The number of migrants going to Europe are they going for work, escape persecution, pushed out by their own government or looking for a better life by living on handouts?
The big key is integration, when the mass migration started to Europe, how many of those migrants are now integrated into European society, that I think will be the key for the standard of living going forward. In their own countries they had to struggle to survive, now in some instances they are taken care of, interesting realities.

No easy solutions, what we do know however, is that it is always easier to get your hands on the law abiding folks versus chasing down the illegals, the airline is licensed and regulated, easy target, ensuring that you track the pax and remove them when their time is up is much harder / difficult.

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