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alm1
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Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:16 pm

There are calls to sanction airlines bringing migrants to Belarus

https://euobserver.com/world/153468

Without going to politics, what leverage does EU have to force Turkish Airlines to stop flying to Belarus. Outright ban from EU airspace would work but I think is highly unlikely at this point. Are there other measures like reduced frequency allocations available? Or just some calls would be enough?
Iraqi Airlines stoped direct flying to Belarus due to political pressure. They used to fly daily and most passengers went only one way.
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:35 pm

Migration is certainly one of the topics were the EU is caught between its own yin and yang: on one side the wish to uphold human rights and the other the knowledge that news of many migrants entering the EU would strengthen the right wing anti EU forces.

As for TK, I belive the EU can only beg the Turkish government to coperate. After all If Erdogan makes a stink about migrants to Europe, Lukashenko's powerplay becomes insignificant immediately.

Best regards and stay safe,
Jonas
 
Bostrom
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:50 pm

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
As for TK, I belive the EU can only beg the Turkish government to coperate. After all If Erdogan makes a stink about migrants to Europe, Lukashenko's powerplay becomes insignificant immediately.


On the other hand, being banned from EU airspace will hit TK hard. So maybe Erdogan will back down if it goes that far.
 
Jetty
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:13 pm

alm1 wrote:
There are calls to sanction airlines bringing migrants to Belarus

https://euobserver.com/world/153468

Without going to politics, what leverage does EU have to force Turkish Airlines to stop flying to Belarus. Outright ban from EU airspace would work but I think is highly unlikely at this point. Are there other measures like reduced frequency allocations available? Or just some calls would be enough?

I think a ban is likely if TK doesn’t back out. While such a ban would be unprecedented, an airline being complicit in a non-conventional attack on the EU by transporting migrants is as well. And reducing illegal migration is very high on the priority list of many Europeans which already led to other unprecedented measures such as stopping search and rescue missions at sea and pushbacks.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:19 pm

What European non-sense.

FZ and TK sell seats legally to passengers entitled to enter Belarus. What happens to them once in Belarus is hardly a problem for the airlines.

Now if the EU is truly interested in helping refugees why don't they fulfil their promises and fully deliver billions in aid and support Turkey, which today host the world most displaced persons (4mil)

https://ec.europa.eu/echo/where/europe/turkey_en

Heck if the Turks really wanted to they could flood their EU borders with an endless human wave that would march in.
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:31 pm

Bostrom wrote:
On the other hand, being banned from EU airspace will hit TK hard. So maybe Erdogan will back down if it goes that far.


You are certainly right that I could be hard for TK and Turkey.

While not clear from my response, I was trying to answer Alm1's question about "levrage". And in this particular case with TK, I think the EU will get much better results with Turkey by using carrots instead of sticks. Especially since I don't belive Lukashenko's behaviour is much to Erdogan's liking. After all if migrants get better hopes of entering into the EU, new desperate people will start moving and rise presure on Turkey too.

Best regards and stay safe,
Jonas
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:42 pm

mercure1 wrote:
What European non-sense.

FZ and TK sell seats legally to passengers entitled to enter Belarus. What happens to them once in Belarus is hardly a problem for the airlines.

Now if the EU is truly interested in helping refugees why don't they fulfil their promises and fully deliver billions in aid and support Turkey, which today host the world most displaced persons (4mil)

https://ec.europa.eu/echo/where/europe/turkey_en

Heck if the Turks really wanted to they could flood their EU borders with an endless human wave that would march in.


Indead what non-sense!
From https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... ip_20_2487 :
Today, the European Commission concluded the final contracts under the operational €6 billion budget of the Facility for Refugees in Turkey

And
Given the continued need for support to refugees in Turkey, the EU announced in July 2020 an additional €485 million to ensure the continuation of the two key humanitarian programmes, the ESSN and the CCTE. This amount comes on top of the €6 billion under the Facility.


Best regards and stay safe,
Jonas
 
Jetty
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:03 pm

mercure1 wrote:
What European non-sense.

FZ and TK sell seats legally to passengers entitled to enter Belarus. What happens to them once in Belarus is hardly a problem for the airlines.

It will be a problem for them if it gets them banned from the EU. TK knows full well that there is no legitimate demand for the amount of seats they offer so they can’t plead ignorance.

Now if the EU is truly interested in helping refugees why don't they fulfil their promises and fully deliver billions in aid and support Turkey, which today host the world most displaced persons (4mil)

They will if Turkey fulfills it’s promise to prevent illegal migrants from leaving. Greece still has to push back many migrants that were able to leave Turkey.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:05 pm

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
Today, the European Commission concluded the final contracts under the operational €6 billion budget of the Facility for Refugees in Turkey

And
Given the continued need for support to refugees in Turkey, the EU announced in July 2020 an additional €485 million to ensure the continuation of the two key humanitarian programmes, the ESSN and the CCTE. This amount comes on top of the €6 billion under the Facility.



lol

Except for that original EUR 6Bil promised to to Turkey in 2016 was stalled being blocked by Greece which launched a suit against the deal

https://apnews.com/article/europe-turke ... 5509cf700f
https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/ ... rst&part=1
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:10 pm

alm1 wrote:
There are calls to sanction airlines bringing migrants to Belarus

https://euobserver.com/world/153468

Without going to politics, what leverage does EU have to force Turkish Airlines to stop flying to Belarus. Outright ban from EU airspace would work but I think is highly unlikely at this point. Are there other measures like reduced frequency allocations available? Or just some calls would be enough?
Iraqi Airlines stoped direct flying to Belarus due to political pressure. They used to fly daily and most passengers went only one way.


It is an absolute disgrace that Belarus's President Alexander Lukashenko, is using refugees as a weapon against the EU, with the blessing of the Kremlin of course. Erdogan did the same.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:15 pm

Jetty wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
What European non-sense.

FZ and TK sell seats legally to passengers entitled to enter Belarus. What happens to them once in Belarus is hardly a problem for the airlines.

It will be a problem for them if it gets them banned from the EU. TK knows full well that there is no legitimate demand for the amount of seats they offer so they can’t plead ignorance.


Exactly, it is human trafficking. They know exactly what they are selling and why.

Get Belarus of of Swift system and they cannot get fuel abroad anymore and ban all Airlines in the EU, flying into Belarus. It is absolutely ridiculous, very dangerous and abject. This cannot go on and it needs to stop now before more get hurt.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:18 pm

Jetty wrote:
They will if Turkey fulfills it’s promise to prevent illegal migrants from leaving. Greece still has to push back many migrants that were able to leave Turkey.


EU committee recently found Greece systematic pushbacks not compliant with the law, and its dangerous actions out at sea are a violation of UN conventions. Greece handling of the situation including camps it holds refugees have long been a concern by NGOs as a violation of treaties. There are ongoing cases regarding this also in the EU Court of Human Rights.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/illegal ... ce/2412027
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press ... er-policy/
 
Jetty
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:34 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
They will if Turkey fulfills it’s promise to prevent illegal migrants from leaving. Greece still has to push back many migrants that were able to leave Turkey.


EU committee recently found Greece systematic pushbacks not compliant with the law, and its dangerous actions out at sea are a violation of UN conventions. Greece handling of the situation including camps it holds refugees have long been a concern by NGOs as a violation of treaties. There are ongoing cases regarding this also in the EU Court of Human Rights.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/illegal ... ce/2412027
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press ... er-policy/

All correct, but that doesn't change that Turkey doesn't abide by it's promise to prevent migrants from leaving.
 
Newark727
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:39 pm

I feel sorry for the migrants, effectively being treated as pawns in a geopolitical game. Pretty cynical on the part of Belarus (among others obviously.)
 
Bostrom
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:10 pm

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
While not clear from my response, I was trying to answer Alm1's question about "levrage". And in this particular case with TK, I think the EU will get much better results with Turkey by using carrots instead of sticks. Especially since I don't belive Lukashenko's behaviour is much to Erdogan's liking. After all if migrants get better hopes of entering into the EU, new desperate people will start moving and rise presure on Turkey too.


I agree, but I also think that the mere threat of a hit againt TK will cause Erdogan to think twice. Although you never how he might react. Also, how important is Turkish airspace to EU airlines?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:38 pm

Newark727 wrote:
I feel sorry for the migrants, effectively being treated as pawns in a geopolitical game. Pretty cynical on the part of Belarus (among others obviously.)


It’s a very shitty situation to be sure. At this scale, they cease to be people with their own stories and are just a scary number for politicians’ use.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:45 am

Bostrom wrote:
I agree, but I also think that the mere threat of a hit againt TK will cause Erdogan to think twice. Although you never how he might react. Also, how important is Turkish airspace to EU airlines?



Let's keep in mind, that Erdogan has the upper hand. Thanks to Merkel and her dumb deals with him. EU has outsourced the control of illegal migration to Turkey. EU is bribing Erdogan to keep them in Turkey.
Threats to slam TK is nonsense. Should the EU try it, Erdogan has ways to retaliate.
 
Jetty
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Wed Nov 10, 2021 1:05 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Threats to slam TK is nonsense. Should the EU try it, Erdogan has ways to retaliate.

So has the EU, and Erdogan is way more dependent on the EU than otherwise, especially now the Greek have developed an effective push-back policy.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:26 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Let's keep in mind, that Erdogan has the upper hand. Thanks to Merkel and her dumb deals with him. EU has outsourced the control of illegal migration to Turkey. EU is bribing Erdogan to keep them in Turkey.
Threats to slam TK is nonsense. Should the EU try it, Erdogan has ways to retaliate.

Yeah L410, I think you a re right. But I'm not pesimistic about the outcome. I may doubt that Erdogan even becomes involved.

TK is a commercial business which lives by selling tickets. They can make a lot of business selling domestic tickets to Turks within Turkey, but they will try hard not to exclude 500 million potential European customers. Getting a reputation of being The World's Primary Illegal Immigrant Smuggler Airline will do them no good in their everyday business.

They are already today some distance down that path, and there will be powers within the company which are already searching for the reverse gear.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:32 am

mercure1 wrote:
What European non-sense.

FZ and TK sell seats legally to passengers entitled to enter Belarus. What happens to them once in Belarus is hardly a problem for the airlines.

Now if the EU is truly interested in helping refugees why don't they fulfil their promises and fully deliver billions in aid and support Turkey, which today host the world most displaced persons (4mil)

https://ec.europa.eu/echo/where/europe/turkey_en

Heck if the Turks really wanted to they could flood their EU borders with an endless human wave that would march in.


Turkey earns billions from trade with the EU. My Renault car was built in Turkey. If Turkey felt it could alienate the EU further without consequences, it would already have done so. Turkish Airlines is only doing this for money, it's not a plan against the EU, the result is the same, though.
 
Redd
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:45 pm

Newark727 wrote:
I feel sorry for the migrants, effectively being treated as pawns in a geopolitical game. Pretty cynical on the part of Belarus (among others obviously.)


That's one way of looking at it. The other is that the migrants travel knowing full well that they'll be attempting to illegally cross into the EU over the Polish border. It's a gamble for them that they've decided to take, it also shows that the majority of those migrants have zero respect for EU law.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:12 pm

Redd wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
I feel sorry for the migrants, effectively being treated as pawns in a geopolitical game. Pretty cynical on the part of Belarus (among others obviously.)


That's one way of looking at it. The other is that the migrants travel knowing full well that they'll be attempting to illegally cross into the EU over the Polish border. It's a gamble for them that they've decided to take, it also shows that the majority of those migrants have zero respect for EU law.


People who have been living in dire conditions for years (many of whom have PTSD) don't have mental space for our quaint niceties of law and procedure. If another government (this time Belarus) says 'now's your chance - do X-Y-Z!', they'll do it. Just the reality of these kind of geopolitical disparities.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:15 pm

Dutchy wrote:
It is an absolute disgrace that Belarus's President Alexander Lukashenko, is using refugees as a weapon against the EU, with the blessing of the Kremlin of course. Erdogan did the same.


Welcome to the real world of hybrid warfare, where anything anything may be weaponized if the other side is foolish enough to allow it. Illegal migrants today, gas pipelines tomorrow.
 
Redd
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:48 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Redd wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
I feel sorry for the migrants, effectively being treated as pawns in a geopolitical game. Pretty cynical on the part of Belarus (among others obviously.)


That's one way of looking at it. The other is that the migrants travel knowing full well that they'll be attempting to illegally cross into the EU over the Polish border. It's a gamble for them that they've decided to take, it also shows that the majority of those migrants have zero respect for EU law.


People who have been living in dire conditions for years (many of whom have PTSD) don't have mental space for our quaint niceties of law and procedure. If another government (this time Belarus) says 'now's your chance - do X-Y-Z!', they'll do it. Just the reality of these kind of geopolitical disparities.


These people, who've been living in 'dire' circumstances, somehow had thousands of Euros to pay to get to the Polish/Belarus border. There are legal immigration routes, if you want to come through legally, welcome. If not, then it shows a complete lack of respect for the rule of law on the part of these migrants. Not people that should be let in to the EU.

Now, don't get me wrong, I feel for these people. I've seen the videos, and this whole thing is happening a 2-hour drive from where I live. It's impossible not to feel bad for them, but these people made a conscious choice to put their own, and their family's, lives in danger. Still, over 95% of these migrants are reported to be military aged males.

If Poland and EU hold the line, like they should, and they will, at least Poland will, it'll stop this engineered 'crisis' quite quickly. People will stop coming.

From a political standpoint, Lukashenko engineered this entire crisis and should be punished. He should also be responsible for the health and wellbeing of these migrants. This crisis is 100% on his head, and 100% his responsibility.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:12 am

The leaders of the EU and their member countries are taking a hard line as to further migration of these refugees of war, poverty, drought/climate change, ethnic and religious persecution in response to demands of their citizens so can keep their jobs and not get voted out. That the overwhelming majority of them are of the Muslim faith adds even further to the pressure to keep them out. Turkey is a Muslim faith majority country, but they have their own huge problems with ethnic hate, in particular the Kurds, for sure they don't want these refugees either. There are also criminals involved, much like with the USA's own migration issues, offering false 'guaranteed' passage to the EU including brokering tickets with Turkish Airlines as part of their money making scams. You also have a country in Belarus that doesn't want them either and a leader who is using them for political reasons.
This is much like with the situation of the USA and those trying to migrate from Mexico, Central and South America, the Caribbean Islands. I bet there are millions in the USA who would applaud the militarization of the border of our border with Mexico much like Poland has done but others in the USA who don't want cruelty on them either.
 
THS214
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:39 am

mercure1 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
They will if Turkey fulfills it’s promise to prevent illegal migrants from leaving. Greece still has to push back many migrants that were able to leave Turkey.


EU committee recently found Greece systematic pushbacks not compliant with the law, and its dangerous actions out at sea are a violation of UN conventions. Greece handling of the situation including camps it holds refugees have long been a concern by NGOs as a violation of treaties. There are ongoing cases regarding this also in the EU Court of Human Rights.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/illegal ... ce/2412027
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press ... er-policy/


A small correction, its European court of human rights not Eu...
 
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eurotrader85
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:16 pm

Redd wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Redd wrote:

That's one way of looking at it. The other is that the migrants travel knowing full well that they'll be attempting to illegally cross into the EU over the Polish border. It's a gamble for them that they've decided to take, it also shows that the majority of those migrants have zero respect for EU law.


People who have been living in dire conditions for years (many of whom have PTSD) don't have mental space for our quaint niceties of law and procedure. If another government (this time Belarus) says 'now's your chance - do X-Y-Z!', they'll do it. Just the reality of these kind of geopolitical disparities.


These people, who've been living in 'dire' circumstances, somehow had thousands of Euros to pay to get to the Polish/Belarus border. There are legal immigration routes, if you want to come through legally, welcome. If not, then it shows a complete lack of respect for the rule of law on the part of these migrants. Not people that should be let in to the EU.

Now, don't get me wrong, I feel for these people. I've seen the videos, and this whole thing is happening a 2-hour drive from where I live. It's impossible not to feel bad for them, but these people made a conscious choice to put their own, and their family's, lives in danger. Still, over 95% of these migrants are reported to be military aged males.

If Poland and EU hold the line, like they should, and they will, at least Poland will, it'll stop this engineered 'crisis' quite quickly. People will stop coming.

From a political standpoint, Lukashenko engineered this entire crisis and should be punished. He should also be responsible for the health and wellbeing of these migrants. This crisis is 100% on his head, and 100% his responsibility.


This is the truth. Life is obviously tough for these people, but they are economic migrants, making the calculation to travel thousands of miles in the idea for a better life, which is not legal. Not, if being persecuted, travelling to the nearest safe country to avoid persecution, until a point when it is safe for them to return to their home country. Don't get me wrong, there are millions of people who have had to leave their country due to war/persecution etc and they are living in mass tents in Jordon etc and your heart can only go out to them, and more should be done by the rich nations to improve these temporary facilities, but these migrants at the Poland/Belarus border know what they are doing, same as those crossing the Mediterranean before them, and Russia/Belarus is just using it as a leverage tool in their latest spar with the West.

Is TK doing anything illegal? No. If the economic migrants say they want to go to Belarus and the government there is allowing them in then why should TK care if they are paying for a seat? How do they know that they are not claiming 'asylum' in Belarus under the current rules?? If the EU bans TK from its airspace will it change anything? No. They can just go by another airline or via Russia who will happily aid. Is there anything the EU can practically do to countries like Belarus, Turkey, Russia, Morocco, Tunisia under the current rules apart from witholding money? No. This is the point, the entire international rules on asylum seeking need to be updated as economic migrants are tarnishing the distinction between them and actual refugees / those with real claims for asylum because if you have made it to Belarus from Afghanistan, you have escaped any political persecution in your home country/war, i.e. the point of asylum, and thus any forward movement should be rejected by the destination country. If you have made it to Dubai and you are under no threat of persecution of some form in the Emirate, you certainly have reached a territory that is cable of supporting you until it is safe to return to your homeland.

To me, threatening the ban of TK from EU airspace sounds, as well as the obviously continued spat against crazy Erdogan whose found a common foe with Russia in the EU/West, like lobbying from EU airlines to limit competition, but again, that plays nicely into the one hand the EU has to hit with, money. But so be it, harder sanctions should follow for aiding and abetting. The costs to these countries of pushing migrants (and I use that term deliberately) needs to be greater than the cost to let them transit/provide aid to the persons, otherwise, this isn't going to be the last 'migrant pushing' a border country is going to try to use for its economic leverage.
 
alm1
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:47 pm

Turkish Airlines respons that they do nothing wrong and do not plan any changes for now:

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/20 ... ion-crisis
 
kalvado
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:57 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It is an absolute disgrace that Belarus's President Alexander Lukashenko, is using refugees as a weapon against the EU, with the blessing of the Kremlin of course. Erdogan did the same.


Welcome to the real world of hybrid warfare, where anything anything may be weaponized if the other side is foolish enough to allow it. Illegal migrants today, gas pipelines tomorrow.

Human rights yesterday.
EU is caught between declared principles of all humans born equal and reality of thousands desperate people on the border.
Because not all people are born equal. Some are born in EU as masters, and some are born in Iraq to get bombed at will.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:04 pm

mercure1 wrote:
What European non-sense.

FZ and TK sell seats legally to passengers entitled to enter Belarus. What happens to them once in Belarus is hardly a problem for the airlines.

Now if the EU is truly interested in helping refugees why don't they fulfil their promises and fully deliver billions in aid and support Turkey, which today host the world most displaced persons (4mil)

https://ec.europa.eu/echo/where/europe/turkey_en

Heck if the Turks really wanted to they could flood their EU borders with an endless human wave that would march in.


Turkey also needs to get tough and close it's borders to refugees.

The entire process is screwed, it was never intended to handle anywhere near the numbers that are either real or pretend refugees. It needs to stop.
 
kalvado
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:09 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
What European non-sense.

FZ and TK sell seats legally to passengers entitled to enter Belarus. What happens to them once in Belarus is hardly a problem for the airlines.

Now if the EU is truly interested in helping refugees why don't they fulfil their promises and fully deliver billions in aid and support Turkey, which today host the world most displaced persons (4mil)

https://ec.europa.eu/echo/where/europe/turkey_en

Heck if the Turks really wanted to they could flood their EU borders with an endless human wave that would march in.


Turkey also needs to get tough and close it's borders to refugees.

The entire process is screwed, it was never intended to handle anywhere near the numbers that are either real or pretend refugees. It needs to stop.

Globalization was the policy west pushed for.
With more travel all over the world, more information flowing via internet, more long haul economic ties, and more warfare being deployed across thousands miles it is impossible to keep certain people at bay just because they happened to be born with the wrong passport.
Things will change a lot within next few decades. Not exactly sure what the change would be - but it will be major.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:11 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
Redd wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

People who have been living in dire conditions for years (many of whom have PTSD) don't have mental space for our quaint niceties of law and procedure. If another government (this time Belarus) says 'now's your chance - do X-Y-Z!', they'll do it. Just the reality of these kind of geopolitical disparities.


These people, who've been living in 'dire' circumstances, somehow had thousands of Euros to pay to get to the Polish/Belarus border. There are legal immigration routes, if you want to come through legally, welcome. If not, then it shows a complete lack of respect for the rule of law on the part of these migrants. Not people that should be let in to the EU.

Now, don't get me wrong, I feel for these people. I've seen the videos, and this whole thing is happening a 2-hour drive from where I live. It's impossible not to feel bad for them, but these people made a conscious choice to put their own, and their family's, lives in danger. Still, over 95% of these migrants are reported to be military aged males.

If Poland and EU hold the line, like they should, and they will, at least Poland will, it'll stop this engineered 'crisis' quite quickly. People will stop coming.

From a political standpoint, Lukashenko engineered this entire crisis and should be punished. He should also be responsible for the health and wellbeing of these migrants. This crisis is 100% on his head, and 100% his responsibility.


Is TK doing anything illegal? No. If the economic migrants say they want to go to Belarus and the government there is allowing them in then why should TK care if they are paying for a seat? How do they know that they are not claiming 'asylum' in Belarus under the current rules?? If the EU bans TK from its airspace will it change anything? No. They can just go by another airline or via Russia who will happily aid. Is there anything the EU can practically do to countries like Belarus, Turkey, Russia, Morocco, Tunisia under the current rules apart from witholding money? No. This is the point, the entire international rules on asylum seeking need to be updated as economic migrants are tarnishing the distinction between them and actual refugees / those with real claims for asylum because if you have made it to Belarus from Afghanistan, you have escaped any political persecution in your home country/war, i.e. the point of asylum, and thus any forward movement should be rejected by the destination country. If you have made it to Dubai and you are under no threat of persecution of some form in the Emirate, you certainly have reached a territory that is cable of supporting you until it is safe to return to your homeland.
.


Do these people have a visa to get to Belarus? I can't get on a plane and fly to Belarus, I need to get a vias before I fly, the airline will check to see if I have a visa, if I don't have a visa I can't get onto the aircraft. I find it difficult to believe that all these people has Belarussian visas. If TK are colluding with the Belarussian govt to bring in illegal immigrants, who are then being bussed to Poland then they should be punished for doing so.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13757
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:15 pm

kalvado wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
What European non-sense.

FZ and TK sell seats legally to passengers entitled to enter Belarus. What happens to them once in Belarus is hardly a problem for the airlines.

Now if the EU is truly interested in helping refugees why don't they fulfil their promises and fully deliver billions in aid and support Turkey, which today host the world most displaced persons (4mil)

https://ec.europa.eu/echo/where/europe/turkey_en

Heck if the Turks really wanted to they could flood their EU borders with an endless human wave that would march in.


Turkey also needs to get tough and close it's borders to refugees.

The entire process is screwed, it was never intended to handle anywhere near the numbers that are either real or pretend refugees. It needs to stop.

Globalization was the policy west pushed for.
With more travel all over the world, more information flowing via internet, more long haul economic ties, and more warfare being deployed across thousands miles it is impossible to keep certain people at bay just because they happened to be born with the wrong passport.
Things will change a lot within next few decades. Not exactly sure what the change would be - but it will be major.


The globalisation of illegal immigrants and refugees was not what the west asked for.

WW2 happened, it resulted in the largest number of displaced people in human history, by 1950 the vast majority of those people had returned home and started rebuilding, back then there were very few options available, most of them had to return, they nowhere else to go, wtf aren't people today able to do the same thing?

If you country sucks, do something about don't just run away.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3553
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:27 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Turkey also needs to get tough and close it's borders to refugees.

The entire process is screwed, it was never intended to handle anywhere near the numbers that are either real or pretend refugees. It needs to stop.

Globalization was the policy west pushed for.
With more travel all over the world, more information flowing via internet, more long haul economic ties, and more warfare being deployed across thousands miles it is impossible to keep certain people at bay just because they happened to be born with the wrong passport.
Things will change a lot within next few decades. Not exactly sure what the change would be - but it will be major.


The globalisation of illegal immigrants and refugees was not what the west asked for.

WW2 happened, it resulted in the largest number of displaced people in human history, by 1950 the vast majority of those people had returned home and started rebuilding, back then there were very few options available, most of them had to return, they nowhere else to go, wtf aren't people today able to do the same thing?

If you country sucks, do something about don't just run away.

You cannot have the cake and eat it too. You want to globalize (aka import) wealth and leave problems behind? Sorry, it doesn't work.
A country suck? Maybe hundreds years of colonial rule are a part of it? And strong corporation globalizing (privatizing) wealth today do continue same trends?
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13757
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:13 pm

kalvado wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Globalization was the policy west pushed for.
With more travel all over the world, more information flowing via internet, more long haul economic ties, and more warfare being deployed across thousands miles it is impossible to keep certain people at bay just because they happened to be born with the wrong passport.
Things will change a lot within next few decades. Not exactly sure what the change would be - but it will be major.


The globalisation of illegal immigrants and refugees was not what the west asked for.

WW2 happened, it resulted in the largest number of displaced people in human history, by 1950 the vast majority of those people had returned home and started rebuilding, back then there were very few options available, most of them had to return, they nowhere else to go, wtf aren't people today able to do the same thing?

If your country sucks, do something about don't just run away.

You cannot have the cake and eat it too. You want to globalize (aka import) wealth and leave problems behind? Sorry, it doesn't work.
A country suck? Maybe hundreds years of colonial rule are a part of it? And strong corporation globalizing (privatizing) wealth today do continue same trends?


Globalisation is products and services not people, we don't want or need people. Colonial rule ended decades ago, in many countries well over 100 years ago, that's just an excuse to justify economic migration.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3553
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:20 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

The globalisation of illegal immigrants and refugees was not what the west asked for.

WW2 happened, it resulted in the largest number of displaced people in human history, by 1950 the vast majority of those people had returned home and started rebuilding, back then there were very few options available, most of them had to return, they nowhere else to go, wtf aren't people today able to do the same thing?

If your country sucks, do something about don't just run away.

You cannot have the cake and eat it too. You want to globalize (aka import) wealth and leave problems behind? Sorry, it doesn't work.
A country suck? Maybe hundreds years of colonial rule are a part of it? And strong corporation globalizing (privatizing) wealth today do continue same trends?


Globalisation is products and services not people, we don't want or need people. Colonial rule ended decades ago, in many countries well over 100 years ago, that's just an excuse to justify economic migration.

So do you think your opinion is more valuable than opinion of people in other areas of the world? They disagree with you. And that is the basic problem of the situation - EU is willing to go great lengths, and is becoming desperate, to keep things as they are. Other parts of the world - not so much.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16796
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:27 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:
Redd wrote:

These people, who've been living in 'dire' circumstances, somehow had thousands of Euros to pay to get to the Polish/Belarus border. There are legal immigration routes, if you want to come through legally, welcome. If not, then it shows a complete lack of respect for the rule of law on the part of these migrants. Not people that should be let in to the EU.

Now, don't get me wrong, I feel for these people. I've seen the videos, and this whole thing is happening a 2-hour drive from where I live. It's impossible not to feel bad for them, but these people made a conscious choice to put their own, and their family's, lives in danger. Still, over 95% of these migrants are reported to be military aged males.

If Poland and EU hold the line, like they should, and they will, at least Poland will, it'll stop this engineered 'crisis' quite quickly. People will stop coming.

From a political standpoint, Lukashenko engineered this entire crisis and should be punished. He should also be responsible for the health and wellbeing of these migrants. This crisis is 100% on his head, and 100% his responsibility.


Is TK doing anything illegal? No. If the economic migrants say they want to go to Belarus and the government there is allowing them in then why should TK care if they are paying for a seat? How do they know that they are not claiming 'asylum' in Belarus under the current rules?? If the EU bans TK from its airspace will it change anything? No. They can just go by another airline or via Russia who will happily aid. Is there anything the EU can practically do to countries like Belarus, Turkey, Russia, Morocco, Tunisia under the current rules apart from witholding money? No. This is the point, the entire international rules on asylum seeking need to be updated as economic migrants are tarnishing the distinction between them and actual refugees / those with real claims for asylum because if you have made it to Belarus from Afghanistan, you have escaped any political persecution in your home country/war, i.e. the point of asylum, and thus any forward movement should be rejected by the destination country. If you have made it to Dubai and you are under no threat of persecution of some form in the Emirate, you certainly have reached a territory that is cable of supporting you until it is safe to return to your homeland.
.


Do these people have a visa to get to Belarus? I can't get on a plane and fly to Belarus, I need to get a vias before I fly, the airline will check to see if I have a visa, if I don't have a visa I can't get onto the aircraft. I find it difficult to believe that all these people has Belarussian visas. If TK are colluding with the Belarussian govt to bring in illegal immigrants, who are then being bussed to Poland then they should be punished for doing so.


According to multiple sources, Lukashenko gave these migrants 7-day tourist visas. They have handed them out like candy as part of their scheme to weaponize migrant numbers against the EU.

https://www.dw.com/en/the-route-from-ir ... a-59636629

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-58952867
 
Redd
Posts: 1427
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:46 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:
Redd wrote:

These people, who've been living in 'dire' circumstances, somehow had thousands of Euros to pay to get to the Polish/Belarus border. There are legal immigration routes, if you want to come through legally, welcome. If not, then it shows a complete lack of respect for the rule of law on the part of these migrants. Not people that should be let in to the EU.

Now, don't get me wrong, I feel for these people. I've seen the videos, and this whole thing is happening a 2-hour drive from where I live. It's impossible not to feel bad for them, but these people made a conscious choice to put their own, and their family's, lives in danger. Still, over 95% of these migrants are reported to be military aged males.

If Poland and EU hold the line, like they should, and they will, at least Poland will, it'll stop this engineered 'crisis' quite quickly. People will stop coming.

From a political standpoint, Lukashenko engineered this entire crisis and should be punished. He should also be responsible for the health and wellbeing of these migrants. This crisis is 100% on his head, and 100% his responsibility.


Is TK doing anything illegal? No. If the economic migrants say they want to go to Belarus and the government there is allowing them in then why should TK care if they are paying for a seat? How do they know that they are not claiming 'asylum' in Belarus under the current rules?? If the EU bans TK from its airspace will it change anything? No. They can just go by another airline or via Russia who will happily aid. Is there anything the EU can practically do to countries like Belarus, Turkey, Russia, Morocco, Tunisia under the current rules apart from witholding money? No. This is the point, the entire international rules on asylum seeking need to be updated as economic migrants are tarnishing the distinction between them and actual refugees / those with real claims for asylum because if you have made it to Belarus from Afghanistan, you have escaped any political persecution in your home country/war, i.e. the point of asylum, and thus any forward movement should be rejected by the destination country. If you have made it to Dubai and you are under no threat of persecution of some form in the Emirate, you certainly have reached a territory that is cable of supporting you until it is safe to return to your homeland.
.


Do these people have a visa to get to Belarus? I can't get on a plane and fly to Belarus, I need to get a vias before I fly, the airline will check to see if I have a visa, if I don't have a visa I can't get onto the aircraft. I find it difficult to believe that all these people has Belarussian visas. If TK are colluding with the Belarussian govt to bring in illegal immigrants, who are then being bussed to Poland then they should be punished for doing so.


I guess you're not familiar with what's happening. Lukashenko is bringing these people in to push through across the border, in response to sanctions by Poland and EU for Belarus for violations of human rights. It is Belurussian 'travel agencies' organizing these trips for these migrants.They're giving them visas, and they're just bussing them straight to the Polish and Lithuanian border.
Last edited by Redd on Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Redd
Posts: 1427
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:49 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
Redd wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

People who have been living in dire conditions for years (many of whom have PTSD) don't have mental space for our quaint niceties of law and procedure. If another government (this time Belarus) says 'now's your chance - do X-Y-Z!', they'll do it. Just the reality of these kind of geopolitical disparities.


These people, who've been living in 'dire' circumstances, somehow had thousands of Euros to pay to get to the Polish/Belarus border. There are legal immigration routes, if you want to come through legally, welcome. If not, then it shows a complete lack of respect for the rule of law on the part of these migrants. Not people that should be let in to the EU.

Now, don't get me wrong, I feel for these people. I've seen the videos, and this whole thing is happening a 2-hour drive from where I live. It's impossible not to feel bad for them, but these people made a conscious choice to put their own, and their family's, lives in danger. Still, over 95% of these migrants are reported to be military aged males.

If Poland and EU hold the line, like they should, and they will, at least Poland will, it'll stop this engineered 'crisis' quite quickly. People will stop coming.

From a political standpoint, Lukashenko engineered this entire crisis and should be punished. He should also be responsible for the health and wellbeing of these migrants. This crisis is 100% on his head, and 100% his responsibility.


This is the point, the entire international rules on asylum seeking need to be updated as economic migrants are tarnishing the distinction between them and actual refugees / those with real claims for asylum because if you have made it to Belarus from Afghanistan, you have escaped any political persecution in your home country/war, i.e. the point of asylum, and thus any forward movement should be rejected by the destination country. If you have made it to Dubai and you are under no threat of persecution of some form in the Emirate, you certainly have reached a territory that is cable of supporting you until it is safe to return to your homeland.



And that is the saddest part, this will make it more difficult for actual refugees in the future.
 
User avatar
eurotrader85
Posts: 304
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:11 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:
Redd wrote:

These people, who've been living in 'dire' circumstances, somehow had thousands of Euros to pay to get to the Polish/Belarus border. There are legal immigration routes, if you want to come through legally, welcome. If not, then it shows a complete lack of respect for the rule of law on the part of these migrants. Not people that should be let in to the EU.

Now, don't get me wrong, I feel for these people. I've seen the videos, and this whole thing is happening a 2-hour drive from where I live. It's impossible not to feel bad for them, but these people made a conscious choice to put their own, and their family's, lives in danger. Still, over 95% of these migrants are reported to be military aged males.

If Poland and EU hold the line, like they should, and they will, at least Poland will, it'll stop this engineered 'crisis' quite quickly. People will stop coming.

From a political standpoint, Lukashenko engineered this entire crisis and should be punished. He should also be responsible for the health and wellbeing of these migrants. This crisis is 100% on his head, and 100% his responsibility.


This is the truth. Life is obviously tough for these people, but they are economic migrants, making the calculation to travel thousands of miles in the idea for a better life, which is not legal. Not, if being persecuted, travelling to the nearest safe country to avoid persecution, until a point when it is safe for them to return to their home country. Don't get me wrong, there are millions of people who have had to leave their country due to war/persecution etc and they are living in mass tents in Jordon etc and your heart can only go out to them, and more should be done by the rich nations to improve these temporary facilities, but these migrants at the Poland/Belarus border know what they are doing, same as those crossing the Mediterranean before them, and Russia/Belarus is just using it as a leverage tool in their latest spar with the West.

Is TK doing anything illegal? No. If the economic migrants say they want to go to Belarus and the government there is allowing them in then why should TK care if they are paying for a seat? How do they know that they are not claiming 'asylum' in Belarus under the current rules?? If the EU bans TK from its airspace will it change anything? No. They can just go by another airline or via Russia who will happily aid. Is there anything the EU can practically do to countries like Belarus, Turkey, Russia, Morocco, Tunisia under the current rules apart from witholding money? No. This is the point, the entire international rules on asylum seeking need to be updated as economic migrants are tarnishing the distinction between them and actual refugees / those with real claims for asylum because if you have made it to Belarus from Afghanistan, you have escaped any political persecution in your home country/war, i.e. the point of asylum, and thus any forward movement should be rejected by the destination country. If you have made it to Dubai and you are under no threat of persecution of some form in the Emirate, you certainly have reached a territory that is cable of supporting you until it is safe to return to your homeland.

To me, threatening the ban of TK from EU airspace sounds, as well as the obviously continued spat against crazy Erdogan whose found a common foe with Russia in the EU/West, like lobbying from EU airlines to limit competition, but again, that plays nicely into the one hand the EU has to hit with, money. But so be it, harder sanctions should follow for aiding and abetting. The costs to these countries of pushing migrants (and I use that term deliberately) needs to be greater than the cost to let them transit/provide aid to the persons, otherwise, this isn't going to be the last 'migrant pushing' a border country is going to try to use for its economic leverage.
.


Do these people have a visa to get to Belarus? I can't get on a plane and fly to Belarus, I need to get a vias before I fly, the airline will check to see if I have a visa, if I don't have a visa I can't get onto the aircraft. I find it difficult to believe that all these people has Belarussian visas. If TK are colluding with the Belarussian govt to bring in illegal immigrants, who are then being bussed to Poland then they should be punished for doing so.


A lot of countries citizens don't need a visa to enter Belarus (or receive a visa on arrival), and in any case, Belarus can argue it is its right to give genuine asylum seekers a safe home under the current rules, where they should be assessed and if found to not have a case repatriated to their homeland. There is international law on people rights to claim asylum, but of course we agree what not right is welcoming economic migrants with open arms, with the deliberate plan to traffic them across the border into Poland/Lithuania/Latvia where they have no legal right to travel to. That is why the whole global laws on asylum need to be updated for the 21st century, and enforced with repatriations to sending countries and automatic nullification of applications for people who have come through a ‘safe’ country, so countries can outright reject economic migrant shopping, i.e. People traversing the planet to reach a destination they fancy, rather than the point of asylum, to be the first safe port of call from their homeland.

kalvado wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Globalization was the policy west pushed for.
With more travel all over the world, more information flowing via internet, more long haul economic ties, and more warfare being deployed across thousands miles it is impossible to keep certain people at bay just because they happened to be born with the wrong passport.
Things will change a lot within next few decades. Not exactly sure what the change would be - but it will be major.


The globalisation of illegal immigrants and refugees was not what the west asked for.

WW2 happened, it resulted in the largest number of displaced people in human history, by 1950 the vast majority of those people had returned home and started rebuilding, back then there were very few options available, most of them had to return, they nowhere else to go, wtf aren't people today able to do the same thing?

If you country sucks, do something about don't just run away.

You cannot have the cake and eat it too. You want to globalize (aka import) wealth and leave problems behind? Sorry, it doesn't work.
A country suck? Maybe hundreds years of colonial rule are a part of it? And strong corporation globalizing (privatizing) wealth today do continue same trends?


Sorry, that is a nonsense argument. Globalisation has created wealth across the globe, opening new markets and bringing more income to countries and its citizens than they had before, for the benefit of everyone. Even people in developed countries might look in envy at the standard of living in some very high-income countries, but it does not give them the automatic right to travel there to live and work and enjoy the benefits of those countries. They have to qualify for the legal right like anyone else. Sure, its harder on some than others, but globalisation and the opening of markets has eased the pressures lifting billions out of poverty. The EU is a political and economic block that has the right to defend the interests of its members, and allowing millions of economic migrants in, who are not genuine asylum seekers who have come directly from said land of persecution, is not deemed in its interests, in the same way it is difficult for EU citizens to work in other places in the world they may wish.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3553
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:45 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

The globalisation of illegal immigrants and refugees was not what the west asked for.

WW2 happened, it resulted in the largest number of displaced people in human history, by 1950 the vast majority of those people had returned home and started rebuilding, back then there were very few options available, most of them had to return, they nowhere else to go, wtf aren't people today able to do the same thing?

If you country sucks, do something about don't just run away.

You cannot have the cake and eat it too. You want to globalize (aka import) wealth and leave problems behind? Sorry, it doesn't work.
A country suck? Maybe hundreds years of colonial rule are a part of it? And strong corporation globalizing (privatizing) wealth today do continue same trends?


Sorry, that is a nonsense argument. Globalisation has created wealth across the globe, opening new markets and bringing more income to countries and its citizens than they had before, for the benefit of everyone. Even people in developed countries might look in envy at the standard of living in some very high-income countries, but it does not give them the automatic right to travel there to live and work and enjoy the benefits of those countries. They have to qualify for the legal right like anyone else. Sure, its harder on some than others, but globalisation and the opening of markets has eased the pressures lifting billions out of poverty. The EU is a political and economic block that has the right to defend the interests of its members, and allowing millions of economic migrants in, who are not genuine asylum seekers who have come directly from said land of persecution, is not deemed in its interests, in the same way it is difficult for EU citizens to work in other places in the world they may wish.

I am not arguing that globalization is good (or bad).
All I am saying is that there are people living in much poorer situation, who see much more wealthy countries making decisions for them - in case of Syria and Iraq decisions as simple as sending couple bombers to drop the payload.
They do see things as an injustice - and it is hard to argue that they got a short end of the stick. They are trying to correct that perceived injustice the way they can. Their ways have little to do with the laws - but they had no input in those laws, as well as in decisions to impose sanctions or send bombers which directly affected them.
If you think that letter of law "send them home" is going to resolve the situation, think again.
 
vc10
Posts: 1438
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:23 pm

I have read most of the arguments here on the responsibilities of Turkey and Belarus in this problem, and I have to say that I agree with them, but can I use the same arguments against France who allow this year alone 22000 people to cross the English channel to illegally enter the UK . Apparently if it was not for the British Lifeboat crews picking them up drowning would have been quite common. These are not refuges but illegal immigrants who can afford any thing between £5000 to £12000 for the crossing, so perhaps the EU needs to look at itself aswel as blaming others
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12832
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:31 pm

vc10 wrote:
I have read most of the arguments here on the responsibilities of Turkey and Belarus in this problem, and I have to say that I agree with them, but can I use the same arguments against France who allow this year alone 22000 people to cross the English channel to illegally enter the UK . Apparently if it was not for the British Lifeboat crews picking them up drowning would have been quite common. These are not refuges but illegal immigrants who can afford any thing between £5000 to £12000 for the crossing, so perhaps the EU needs to look at itself aswel as blaming others


Unfortunately a totally different problem. Many illegals can't be sent back, because countries of origin don't accept them, like Marrocco.
 
alm1
Topic Author
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:39 pm

vc10 wrote:
I have read most of the arguments here on the responsibilities of Turkey and Belarus in this problem, and I have to say that I agree with them, but can I use the same arguments against France who allow this year alone 22000 people to cross the English channel to illegally enter the UK . Apparently if it was not for the British Lifeboat crews picking them up drowning would have been quite common. These are not refuges but illegal immigrants who can afford any thing between £5000 to £12000 for the crossing, so perhaps the EU needs to look at itself aswel as blaming others



Reducing benefits like Dennmark did would end this instantly. This aplies to Germany too.

Or UK can learn from Australia. They have some effective advertising aimed at those trying to cross seas: https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/foi/file ... sed-p4.PDF
 
alm1
Topic Author
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:59 pm

Looks like TK folded:

Turkish Airlines will not accept citizens of Iraq, Syria and Yemen on flights to Minsk if they do not have diplomatic passports


http://www.uniindia.com/~/turkish-airli ... 60561.html
 
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Aesma
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:14 am

I'm not sure what game Putin is playing, but I'm thinking he's miscalculating. The same people he helps in the EU to gain influence/break up the EU, all these far right politicians, are the ones the most opposed to immigration (legal or illegal). So if voters associate Putin with the migrant crisis, that disqualifies his stooges in the EU.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14949
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:15 am

kalvado wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
You cannot have the cake and eat it too. You want to globalize (aka import) wealth and leave problems behind? Sorry, it doesn't work.
A country suck? Maybe hundreds years of colonial rule are a part of it? And strong corporation globalizing (privatizing) wealth today do continue same trends?


Sorry, that is a nonsense argument. Globalisation has created wealth across the globe, opening new markets and bringing more income to countries and its citizens than they had before, for the benefit of everyone. Even people in developed countries might look in envy at the standard of living in some very high-income countries, but it does not give them the automatic right to travel there to live and work and enjoy the benefits of those countries. They have to qualify for the legal right like anyone else. Sure, its harder on some than others, but globalisation and the opening of markets has eased the pressures lifting billions out of poverty. The EU is a political and economic block that has the right to defend the interests of its members, and allowing millions of economic migrants in, who are not genuine asylum seekers who have come directly from said land of persecution, is not deemed in its interests, in the same way it is difficult for EU citizens to work in other places in the world they may wish.

I am not arguing that globalization is good (or bad).
All I am saying is that there are people living in much poorer situation, who see much more wealthy countries making decisions for them - in case of Syria and Iraq decisions as simple as sending couple bombers to drop the payload.
They do see things as an injustice - and it is hard to argue that they got a short end of the stick. They are trying to correct that perceived injustice the way they can. Their ways have little to do with the laws - but they had no input in those laws, as well as in decisions to impose sanctions or send bombers which directly affected them.
If you think that letter of law "send them home" is going to resolve the situation, think again.


So they're so upset with "the west" that they want to live in "the west" ? That doesn't make a lot of sense, but if true, it's another reason to not accept them here ! It can only lead to bad outcomes.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16796
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:37 am

Aesma wrote:
kalvado wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:


Sorry, that is a nonsense argument. Globalisation has created wealth across the globe, opening new markets and bringing more income to countries and its citizens than they had before, for the benefit of everyone. Even people in developed countries might look in envy at the standard of living in some very high-income countries, but it does not give them the automatic right to travel there to live and work and enjoy the benefits of those countries. They have to qualify for the legal right like anyone else. Sure, its harder on some than others, but globalisation and the opening of markets has eased the pressures lifting billions out of poverty. The EU is a political and economic block that has the right to defend the interests of its members, and allowing millions of economic migrants in, who are not genuine asylum seekers who have come directly from said land of persecution, is not deemed in its interests, in the same way it is difficult for EU citizens to work in other places in the world they may wish.

I am not arguing that globalization is good (or bad).
All I am saying is that there are people living in much poorer situation, who see much more wealthy countries making decisions for them - in case of Syria and Iraq decisions as simple as sending couple bombers to drop the payload.
They do see things as an injustice - and it is hard to argue that they got a short end of the stick. They are trying to correct that perceived injustice the way they can. Their ways have little to do with the laws - but they had no input in those laws, as well as in decisions to impose sanctions or send bombers which directly affected them.
If you think that letter of law "send them home" is going to resolve the situation, think again.


So they're so upset with "the west" that they want to live in "the west" ? That doesn't make a lot of sense, but if true, it's another reason to not accept them here ! It can only lead to bad outcomes.


$$$ talks. There are a lot of professional class people in the west who take jobs or transfers in cities they don’t prefer to live in simply for the opportunity.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 1208
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:44 am

The EU now. Two months ago it was Haitians in Texas. Now we read Haiti is almost completely lawless. There are 12 million people who live in Haiti most of whom find life impossible. I wouldn't stay. The Afghani's and Ethiopians are or will soon be on the march along with all the other migrants from failed states.

IMO - The issue of mass migration will be make Global Warming look like a walk in the park.
 
N1120A
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Re: Possible EU ban of Turkish Airlines, flydubai

Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:54 am

If the EU were to take military action against Belarus, what would Russia actually do? Retaliate? Bring the US into this? Over Belarusian hubris? This is one situation where a military option shouldn't be overlooked. The EU, especially France, should forcibly remove Lukashenko and dare Russia to do something.

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