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FGITD
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:32 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
meecrob wrote:
Since when was eye (ear)witness testimony reliable?


When it is corroborated by photographic evidence and other people who are saying the same thing that don't know each other.


I’m curious about this photo and I’ve tried searching around a bit but haven’t found anything other than the usual well known photos. Could you provide a link or post it?

Eyewitness testimony is still iffy at best. Hell, some of them claim to have heard 8 gun shots. Why are we so quick to discredit them as ridiculous, but the people who heard 4-5 are perfectly reliable?

I wouldn’t be too shocked to find out there was more at play, but it does seem that usually the simplest answer is the most likely.
 
NIKV69
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:32 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Stand under rifle targets in the pit and bullets passing overhead are very distinguishable. There’s a ton of research and books written. Some are obviously nutty, others have some real significance. The Mafia history from the early days of Cuba have relevance; now we dismiss them but in the 60s they were a real power. Jimmy Hoffa was a big deal, Nixon getting Teamsters endorsement was huge news. The CIA has some close ties to them as proven by various well recorded investigations. All this at a time J. Edgar Hoover was telling the nation the Mob didn’t exist. Oops.

It’s all circumstantial, but cannot be dismissed as worthless and entirely useful to historians.


Gordon Arnold who was not interviewed right after the assassination (deployed on active duty) gave a story later that the bullet went right past his head. He was in military training and dove for cover. This account was the same exact story a sitting senator gave who was in the motorcade. When the photo was enlarged it showed a person in a shooting pose with a badge on his shirt in addition to Gordon Arnold getting video of the motorcade. Exactly the same thing Arnold said he saw after the shooting. The photo also revealed a third person in a construction cap which a person on the overpass who stopped to watch the motorcade said he saw when the assassins fled as well as Lee Bauer who was in a Railroad signal booth right behind the knoll. Multiple people on the knoll said the shot came from that area. The violent jerk of JFKs head supports a shot from that area and not behind.

I mean in a court of law this wouldn't even be close.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:54 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Stand under rifle targets in the pit and bullets passing overhead are very distinguishable. There’s a ton of research and books written. Some are obviously nutty, others have some real significance. The Mafia history from the early days of Cuba have relevance; now we dismiss them but in the 60s they were a real power. Jimmy Hoffa was a big deal, Nixon getting Teamsters endorsement was huge news. The CIA has some close ties to them as proven by various well recorded investigations. All this at a time J. Edgar Hoover was telling the nation the Mob didn’t exist. Oops.

It’s all circumstantial, but cannot be dismissed as worthless and entirely useful to historians.


Gordon Arnold who was not interviewed right after the assassination (deployed on active duty) gave a story later that the bullet went right past his head. He was in military training and dove for cover. This account was the same exact story a sitting senator gave who was in the motorcade. When the photo was enlarged it showed a person in a shooting pose with a badge on his shirt in addition to Gordon Arnold getting video of the motorcade. Exactly the same thing Arnold said he saw after the shooting. The photo also revealed a third person in a construction cap which a person on the overpass who stopped to watch the motorcade said he saw when the assassins fled as well as Lee Bauer who was in a Railroad signal booth right behind the knoll. Multiple people on the knoll said the shot came from that area. The violent jerk of JFKs head supports a shot from that area and not behind.

I mean in a court of law this wouldn't even be close.


I believe you’re referring to Lee Bowers, a Union Terminal employee who was interviewed by the Warren commission. He died in a weird traffic accident in 1966...
 
NIKV69
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:24 pm

FGITD wrote:
I’m curious about this photo and I’ve tried searching around a bit but haven’t found anything other than the usual well known photos. Could you provide a link or post it?

Eyewitness testimony is still iffy at best. Hell, some of them claim to have heard 8 gun shots. Why are we so quick to discredit them as ridiculous, but the people who heard 4-5 are perfectly reliable?

I wouldn’t be too shocked to find out there was more at play, but it does seem that usually the simplest answer is the most likely.


The famous Mary Moorman photo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LbNWUNfnaA
 
M564038
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:42 pm

All being exposed to the same psycho-acoustic phenomena, easily explained by the topology of the site.
Most witnesses said the shots came from the depository.
Lo and behold, in that location there was also an emotionally unstable, politically confused, sharpshooter with the correct weapon.
Every piece of physical and pathological evidence fits with him doing the shots too. Including the head-movement.

But hey! {3 pages of mafia this, cuba that, a witnesses mother killed in an accident, witnesses with inpossible observations and suggestions of a conspiracy of a scale that has never worked in the history of humanity } must be true, then!

NIKV69 wrote:
meecrob wrote:
Since when was eye (ear)witness testimony reliable?


When it is corroborated by photographic evidence and other people who are saying the same thing that don't know each other.
 
meecrob
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:54 pm

Like the poster above, I have to ask where this photographic evidence is?
 
NIKV69
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:05 pm

meecrob wrote:
Like the poster above, I have to ask where this photographic evidence is?


I linked it two replies above watch the part where they enlarge the photo.
 
meecrob
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:08 pm

That's a 51 minute documentary...do you possibly have the time where they display this photo?
 
FGITD
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:23 am

Tough to call that definitive proof though. There’s an equal claim that the “reflection” of the shooter is actually just a glass bottle.

I’m all for looking at this from all angles, but I can’t help but think that photo is a case of only seeing what you’re looking for…
 
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Aaron747
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:50 am

FGITD wrote:
I can’t help but think that photo is a case of only seeing what you’re looking for…


Sounds a lot like the conclusions from the Warren commission. This testimony from the guy who carpooled with LHO that day has always stood out in my mind - the commission ignored his testimony and went with their version.

https://youtu.be/tTPAfgwMN4I?t=3288
 
M564038
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:15 pm

What do you find odd about his testimony?

Aaron747 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
I can’t help but think that photo is a case of only seeing what you’re looking for…


Sounds a lot like the conclusions from the Warren commission. This testimony from the guy who carpooled with LHO that day has always stood out in my mind - the commission ignored his testimony and went with their version.

https://youtu.be/tTPAfgwMN4I?t=3288
 
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Aaron747
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:25 pm

M564038 wrote:
What do you find odd about his testimony?

Aaron747 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
I can’t help but think that photo is a case of only seeing what you’re looking for…


Sounds a lot like the conclusions from the Warren commission. This testimony from the guy who carpooled with LHO that day has always stood out in my mind - the commission ignored his testimony and went with their version.

https://youtu.be/tTPAfgwMN4I?t=3288


The discrepancy between law enforcement reports about the size of the rifle and the guy's description of the wrapped curtain rods.
 
NIKV69
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:44 pm

meecrob wrote:
That's a 51 minute documentary...do you possibly have the time where they display this photo?


It's early on in the vid, the whole thing ties together with eyewitnesses who heard a shot from that location.

FGITD wrote:
Tough to call that definitive proof though. There’s an equal claim that the “reflection” of the shooter is actually just a glass bottle.

I’m all for looking at this from all angles, but I can’t help but think that photo is a case of only seeing what you’re looking for…


Well it's clear proof of someone with a Police uniform and corroborates Arnold's presence as the eyewitness in the motorcade who saw him dive for cover.
 
vikkyvik
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:31 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Well it's clear proof of someone with a Police uniform and corroborates Arnold's presence as the eyewitness in the motorcade who saw him dive for cover.


If we're referring to the Mary Moorman photo, all that proves is that people can find whatever they want to find in a black-and-white photo with patchy light/shadow.
 
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seb146
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:22 pm

Technical question about redactions:

Are the originals saved? The unredacted documents or are they forever redacted and no one will ever ever know what is behind the redaction?
 
NIKV69
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:46 pm

vikkyvik wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Well it's clear proof of someone with a Police uniform and corroborates Arnold's presence as the eyewitness in the motorcade who saw him dive for cover.


If we're referring to the Mary Moorman photo, all that proves is that people can find whatever they want to find in a black-and-white photo with patchy light/shadow.


Oh please, the figures are clear as day in the photo. You kidding?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:32 am

vikkyvik wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Well it's clear proof of someone with a Police uniform and corroborates Arnold's presence as the eyewitness in the motorcade who saw him dive for cover.


If we're referring to the Mary Moorman photo, all that proves is that people can find whatever they want to find in a black-and-white photo with patchy light/shadow.


True enough, but we’re not just talking about laypersons here. The photo was analyzed by people who were experts in analog image analysis.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:09 pm

Pretty timely and interesting documentary just produced by ABC7 in SFO - they talk about a visual experiment done with triangulation of positions of people in photos that shows where the 2nd shooter may have stood in Moorman's photo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6JfJkYXXFQ
 
NIKV69
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:58 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Pretty timely and interesting documentary just produced by ABC7 in SFO - they talk about a visual experiment done with triangulation of positions of people in photos that shows where the 2nd shooter may have stood in Moorman's photo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6JfJkYXXFQ


Nice Documentary, that guy was the father of the famous family in the video on the ground covering their kids after the shots. Yes the evidence that the fatal shot came from the picket fence is clear as day. You have numerous people in different spots that saw the gunman and heard the shot. LIke I said earlier it's not even close.
 
M564038
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:33 pm

LHO did it alone. None of this nonsense even cast 1% doubt about it.

NIKV69 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Pretty timely and interesting documentary just produced by ABC7 in SFO - they talk about a visual experiment done with triangulation of positions of people in photos that shows where the 2nd shooter may have stood in Moorman's photo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6JfJkYXXFQ


Nice Documentary, that guy was the father of the famous family in the video on the ground covering their kids after the shots. Yes the evidence that the fatal shot came from the picket fence is clear as day. You have numerous people in different spots that saw the gunman and heard the shot. LIke I said earlier it's not even close.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:26 pm

M564038 wrote:
LHO did it alone. None of this nonsense even cast 1% doubt about it.

NIKV69 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Pretty timely and interesting documentary just produced by ABC7 in SFO - they talk about a visual experiment done with triangulation of positions of people in photos that shows where the 2nd shooter may have stood in Moorman's photo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6JfJkYXXFQ


Nice Documentary, that guy was the father of the famous family in the video on the ground covering their kids after the shots. Yes the evidence that the fatal shot came from the picket fence is clear as day. You have numerous people in different spots that saw the gunman and heard the shot. LIke I said earlier it's not even close.


I wonder why you’re so sure of it. I watched that documentary, too. It was well done, Josiah Thompson was very convincing and not presenting any weird theories of conspiracy. The history of the acoustic evidence, the wound spalled diagrams, the evidence by LHO’s being seen in the lunch room 90 seconds after the shooting and not seen on the stairs, and yes, some of the suspicious deaths, all make a conspiracy of unknown parties hard to ignore. Thompson doesn’t have an opinion on who, just what happened. Read “Hit List”; some of the deaths are just coincidence, others are hard to explain. Was there a conspiracy, even the HSCA said there was; who did it will ever be a mystery. But, as the Mafia says, “you want to know who did it, look at who survives, they did it”.
 
bennett123
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:09 pm

IMO, it is hard to credit that there are still valid security concerns IF Lee Harvey Oswald was the only shooter.

Personally, I think he could have been A shooter. In that case, did Jack Ruby silence him on his own account, or was he told to do so by a third party.

You do not need to join the Tin Foil Hat brigade to see this thing just doesn't stack up.
 
NIKV69
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:11 pm

M564038 wrote:
LHO did it alone. None of this nonsense even cast 1% doubt about it.



Nonsense? How many people that don't know each other all said the same thing of what they saw and heard? Hard to take your statement too seriously and there is more than enough evidence the supports another shooter at the picket fence.
 
bennett123
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:19 pm

Just cut this from the wiki article about Jack Ruby;

'After his arrest, Ruby asked Dallas attorney Tom Howard to represent him. Howard accepted and asked Ruby if he could think of anything that might damage his defense. Ruby responded that there would be a problem if a man by the name of "Davis" should come up. Ruby told his attorney that he "... had been involved with Davis, who was a gunrunner entangled in anti-Castro efforts".[35]: 44 [36]

Later, Ruby replaced attorney Tom Howard with prominent San Francisco defense attorney Melvin Belli, who agreed to represent Ruby pro bono. On March 14, 1964, Ruby was convicted of murder with malice and was sentenced to death.

Ruby's conviction was overturned by the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals on the grounds that "an oral confession of premeditation made while in police custody" should have been ruled inadmissible, because it violated a Texas criminal statute.[37] The court also ruled that the venue should have been changed to a Texas county other than the one in which the high-profile crime had been committed.[37] Ruby died technically unconvicted, because his original conviction was overturned and his retrial was pending at the time of his death.

During the six months following Kennedy's assassination, Ruby repeatedly asked, orally and in writing, to speak to the members of the Warren Commission. The commission initially showed no interest. Only after Ruby's sister Eileen wrote letters to the commission (and her letters became public) did the Warren Commission agree to talk to Ruby. In June 1964, Chief Justice Earl Warren, then-Representative Gerald R. Ford of Michigan, and other commission members went to Dallas to see Ruby. Ruby asked Warren several times to take him to Washington D.C., saying "my life is in danger here" and that he wanted an opportunity to make additional statements.[38]: 194–196  He added: "I want to tell the truth, and I can't tell it here."[38]: 194  Warren told Ruby that he would be unable to comply, because many legal barriers would need to be overcome, and public interest in the situation would be too heavy. Warren also told Ruby that the commission would have no way of protecting him, since it had no police powers. Ruby said he wanted to convince President Lyndon Johnson that he was not part of any conspiracy to kill Kennedy.[38]: 209–212 

Eventually, the appellate court agreed with Ruby's lawyers that he should be granted a new trial. On October 5, 1966, the court ruled that his motion for a change of venue before the original trial court should have been granted. Ruby's conviction and death sentence were overturned. Arrangements were underway for a new trial to be held in February 1967[39] in Wichita Falls, Texas, when on December 9, 1966, Ruby was admitted to Parkland Hospital in Dallas, suffering from pneumonia. A day later, doctors discovered cancer in Ruby's liver, lungs, and brain. His condition rapidly deteriorated'

The action of the Warren Commission does raise the question, why didn't they want to hear his testimony?.
 
NIKV69
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:29 pm

bennett123 wrote:

The action of the Warren Commission does raise the question, why didn't they want to hear his testimony?.


It's funny in the official record Warren Commision witness list they interviewed acquaintances of Ruby but not him himself? Very strange though if you believe in the conspiracy then you have to wonder that this report had to say it was one shooter from the Schoolbook depository and nothing else.
 
bennett123
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:25 pm

Two points that spring out at me are these;

1. Assuming that Oswald was a sole shooter, how was he able to bring that gun to the depository without being caught. Surely buildings along the route would have been searched. Let's face JFK was not just 'some politician'.

2. Assuming that Ruby was a sole shooter, how could he wander into Police Head Quarters without being challenged and shoot Oswald. Given the nature of the crime, the risk of him being sprung or silenced would have been obvious.
 
M564038
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:05 am

bennett123 wrote:
Two points that spring out at me are these;

1. Assuming that Oswald was a sole shooter, how was he able to bring that gun to the depository without being caught. Surely buildings along the route would have been searched. Let's face JFK was not just 'some politician'.

2. Assuming that Ruby was a sole shooter, how could he wander into Police Head Quarters without being challenged and shoot Oswald. Given the nature of the crime, the risk of him being sprung or silenced would have been obvious.


1. 1963

2.1963
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:43 am

M564038 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Two points that spring out at me are these;

1. Assuming that Oswald was a sole shooter, how was he able to bring that gun to the depository without being caught. Surely buildings along the route would have been searched. Let's face JFK was not just 'some politician'.

2. Assuming that Ruby was a sole shooter, how could he wander into Police Head Quarters without being challenged and shoot Oswald. Given the nature of the crime, the risk of him being sprung or silenced would have been obvious.


1. 1963

2.1963


True but the Secret Service knew about previous attempts and shutdown trips to Chicago and Miami to avoid them. Ruby was well known to the DPD and allowed access to HQ. He was seen in the building before and over the weekend following the assassination.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:58 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
M564038 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Two points that spring out at me are these;

1. Assuming that Oswald was a sole shooter, how was he able to bring that gun to the depository without being caught. Surely buildings along the route would have been searched. Let's face JFK was not just 'some politician'.

2. Assuming that Ruby was a sole shooter, how could he wander into Police Head Quarters without being challenged and shoot Oswald. Given the nature of the crime, the risk of him being sprung or silenced would have been obvious.


1. 1963

2.1963


True but the Secret Service knew about previous attempts and shutdown trips to Chicago and Miami to avoid them. Ruby was well known to the DPD and allowed access to HQ. He was seen in the building before and over the weekend following the assassination.


Let's not mince words - Ruby was *loved* by DPD. He comped drinks and lap dances for cops at his clubs.
 
bennett123
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:26 am

M564038 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Two points that spring out at me are these;

1. Assuming that Oswald was a sole shooter, how was he able to bring that gun to the depository without being caught. Surely buildings along the route would have been searched. Let's face JFK was not just 'some politician'.

2. Assuming that Ruby was a sole shooter, how could he wander into Police Head Quarters without being challenged and shoot Oswald. Given the nature of the crime, the risk of him being sprung or silenced would have been obvious.


1. 1963

2.1963


Perhaps you could explain what you mean?.
 
Virtual737
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:50 am

I have now seen the final redacted document. It was Professor Plum, in the library, with the candlestick.
 
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casinterest
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Re: JFK Assassination Records Release Delayed Again

Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:28 pm

You asked for it, you got it.

The archives are ready to be examined.

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release2021

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