It takes a long time to burn that many files. The only reason for the classification all these later are the embarrassing facts tied to names. This one conspiracy I’m a believer in, just not the wilder ones where just about every person in America was complicit

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

It takes a long time to burn that many files. The only reason for the classification all these later are the embarrassing facts tied to names. This one conspiracy I’m a believer in, just not the wilder ones where just about every person in America was complicit

Yip I don't for one minute think Oswald was alone in this.

I am absolutely convinced LHO was 100% alone in this. He was in the right place, he had the right training, and he fits exactly in to the kind of outsider profile we know from modern terror-attacks, assasinations and killings is confused enough to go through with it.
This guy wasn’t some smart, politically sassy double-triple-quadrupel drugged and exploited agent taking a fall. This was a Behring-Breivik type luny, emotionally disturbed with a pecular relation to his mother, socially low-functioning, but with adquate training and a conviction.
He was a marine, that at one point qualified as a sharpshooter.

I was a believer in all kinds of conspiracies regarding the JFK-assasination as a youth. It was a big thing in the 90’s! The movie and all. Infact, dweliwing deeper in to the JFK-killing gave me a rough awakening on just how manipulative, cherry-picking and dangerous these kind of conspiracy-theories can be. The Warren comission was darn good! And it surely helps to go outside and measure up the distance between the Texas school depository and the JFK motorcade for yourself at a place you know well! Not to speak of the interior and seat placement of the car in question!

I felt totally embarrased, changed my ways and feel very lucky it happened before 9-11 and even worse, social media!

Everything I have read from reputable sources suggests everything to be quite OK with the bullet trajectories, as is the official version.

Aaron747 wrote:

M564038 wrote:

I am absolutely convinced LHO was 100% alone in this. He was in the right place, he had the right training, and he fits exactly in to the kind of outsider profile we know from modern terror-attacks, assasinations and killings is confused enough to go through with it.
This guy wasn’t some smart, politically sassy double-triple-quadrupel drugged and exploited agent taking a fall. This was a Behring-Breivik type luny, socially low-functioning, but with adquate training and a conviction.

I was a believer in all kinds of conspiracies regarding the JFK-assasination as a youth. It was a big thing in the 90’s! The movie and all. Infact, dweliwing deeper in to the JFK-killing gave me a rough awakening on just how manipulative, cherry-picking and dangerous these kind of conspiracy-theories can be. The Warren comission was darn good! And it surely helps to go outside and measure up the distance between the Texas school depository and the JFK motorcade for yourself at a place you know well! Not to speak of the interior and seat placement of the car in question!

I felt totally embarrased, changed my ways and feel very lucky it happened before 9-11 and even worse, social media!

The only problem with the LHO scenario is the single bullet theory, which a lot of pathologists find rather improbable. Agreed that he was a very odd bird. Not many Texan ex-Marines in the early 1960s would be going around bragging about having a Soviet wife and indulging Marxism.

Kiwirob wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

It takes a long time to burn that many files. The only reason for the classification all these later are the embarrassing facts tied to names. This one conspiracy I’m a believer in, just not the wilder ones where just about every person in America was complicit

Yip I don't for one minute think Oswald was alone in this.

Not when there is photographic evidence with corroboration that someone fired from the picket fence in the parking lot.

There most certainly isn’t.

NIKV69 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

It takes a long time to burn that many files. The only reason for the classification all these later are the embarrassing facts tied to names. This one conspiracy I’m a believer in, just not the wilder ones where just about every person in America was complicit

Yip I don't for one minute think Oswald was alone in this.

Not when there is photographic evidence with corroboration that someone fired from the picket fence in the parking lot.

Explain some of the coincidental deaths—Mary Meyer (one of JFK’s lover); Dorothy Kilgallen, the only reporter who interviewed Ruby and had done considerable rea search on the murder of JFK; Johnny Roselli and Sam Giancana, both found dead days before testifying before the HSCA. Roselli and Giancana were both proved to be involved in CIA attempts on Castro’s life along with New Orleans mobster Carlos Marcello. The mob had very personal reasons to murder JFK. Marcello had been forcibly kidnapped and deported to Guatemala by RFK. Jack Ruby was closely tied to the mob. Hoover said, within hours, LHO did it, without any facts, another interesting tidbit.

The fact that both LHO and RFK met “untimely” deaths indicates something of conspiracy. RFK, if elected, would have had every reason and all the power to bring on a tough investigation.

No, Galaxy Flyet, I won’t do that.
You have to apply Ockham’s razor.

LHO had the position, the weapon, the motive, the skill and he fits the profile. A huge majority of interviewed witnesses says the shots came from his position. There were numerous official investigations coming to the same conclusion. This includes weapons experts and pathologists. It is the obvious explanation and it fits with all available observations and facts.

There is nothing mysterious about this.


As usual, once one conspiracy angel, another one is invented. I remember very well what the talk was in the 90’s: “The magic bullet”, that Oswald couldn’t shoot etc.

Once those are debunked, the theorists move on to a new angle, getting more and more particular and involved, as you just demonstrated.

It was the same with 9-11.
The first conspiracy lunatics where all about how Atta couldn’t fly, and how Jet fuel couldn’t weaken a building.
Once those were debunked enough to just sound stupid, they were in to the recovered RB211s supposedly having the wrong kind of rubber seal in ine of the photos, ans discrepancies in the maintenance manual of the Washington plane.
It never ends, and it is helped by the fact that the real world always includes some weird coincidences that doesn’t fit the conspiracy oriented mind’s lust for some complex equation that they, and only they can solve perfectly.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Explain some of the coincidental deaths—Mary Meyer (one of JFK’s lover); Dorothy Kilgallen, the only reporter who interviewed Ruby and had done considerable rea search on the murder of JFK; Johnny Roselli and Sam Giancana, both found dead days before testifying before the HSCA. Roselli and Giancana were both proved to be involved in CIA attempts on Castro’s life along with New Orleans mobster Carlos Marcello. The mob had very personal reasons to murder JFK. Marcello had been forcibly kidnapped and deported to Guatemala by RFK. Jack Ruby was closely tied to the mob. Hoover said, within hours, LHO did it, without any facts, another interesting tidbit.

The fact that both LHO and RFK met “untimely” deaths indicates something of conspiracy. RFK, if elected, would have had every reason and all the power to bring on a tough investigation.

Yes, much the same as any of those Behring-Breivik/Oswald-types touch the radar screens of intelligence and/or police at some point. They aren’t quite normal, you know. Thankfully.

In this sense an interesting parallel is how the Swedish police finally pointed to a quite obvious suspect in the unsolved 1986 Olof Palme-murder last year.

In that case, their investigators really, really wanted it to be an international conspiracy of some grandesse, then turning to some random drunk when someone else took over the investigation. All the while overlooking a couple of very obvious suspects for decades, before finally declaring one of them (now deceased) as the likely murderer as late as last year, closing the investigation.
(There were actually 2 of them, I happen to think it was the other one;-) I have no evidence)

There was just a (pretty mediocre) Netflix true-crime drama that came out about it last week, called “the unlikely murderer” or something to that effect.
Which is a bad title, because that was also all about an somewhat odd outsider in need of grandeur.

Aaron747 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Explain some of the coincidental deaths—Mary Meyer (one of JFK’s lover); Dorothy Kilgallen, the only reporter who interviewed Ruby and had done considerable rea search on the murder of JFK; Johnny Roselli and Sam Giancana, both found dead days before testifying before the HSCA. Roselli and Giancana were both proved to be involved in CIA attempts on Castro’s life along with New Orleans mobster Carlos Marcello. The mob had very personal reasons to murder JFK. Marcello had been forcibly kidnapped and deported to Guatemala by RFK. Jack Ruby was closely tied to the mob. Hoover said, within hours, LHO did it, without any facts, another interesting tidbit.

The fact that both LHO and RFK met “untimely” deaths indicates something of conspiracy. RFK, if elected, would have had every reason and all the power to bring on a tough investigation.

Not only that, but the immediate cover story following the assassination was that LHO was an unknown guy and a nobody. Nothing was further from the truth - records HSCA examined indicated LHO was on CIA's radar, was a subject of FBI interest multiple times, and was possibly being manipulated from 1959 onward. The guy defects to USSR in 1961, comes home with Russian bride, and isn't being monitored?
Mmkay, yeah, a real nobody.

I agree.
But as usual, redacments are usually done to avoid embarrasment and showing how much wasn’t working, not to cover up conspiracies. There is still a few people involved alive.

Aaron747 wrote:

M564038 wrote:

No, Galaxy Flyet, I won’t do that.
You have to apply Ockham’s razor.

LHO had the position, the weapon, the motive, the skill and he fits the profile. A huge majority of interviewed witnesses says the shots came from his position. There were numerous official investigations coming to the same conclusion.

There is nothing mysterious about this.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Explain some of the coincidental deaths—Mary Meyer (one of JFK’s lover); Dorothy Kilgallen, the only reporter who interviewed Ruby and had done considerable rea search on the murder of JFK; Johnny Roselli and Sam Giancana, both found dead days before testifying before the HSCA. Roselli and Giancana were both proved to be involved in CIA attempts on Castro’s life along with New Orleans mobster Carlos Marcello. The mob had very personal reasons to murder JFK. Marcello had been forcibly kidnapped and deported to Guatemala by RFK. Jack Ruby was closely tied to the mob. Hoover said, within hours, LHO did it, without any facts, another interesting tidbit.

The fact that both LHO and RFK met “untimely” deaths indicates something of conspiracy. RFK, if elected, would have had every reason and all the power to bring on a tough investigation.

If the story is that simple, there is no need to continually review documents and redact intelligence material from the period.

It’s up to history now, there’ll never be a trial. Read up on the Warren Commission from a different perspective. Allen Dulles represented the CIA, as former DCI he was in charge of the Castro murder attempts kept secret from the Commission. He also had been publicly fired from that job by JFK. Four members are on record expressing doubts about the report, specifically the magic bullet theory.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Explain some of the coincidental deaths—Mary Meyer (one of JFK’s lover); Dorothy Kilgallen, the only reporter who interviewed Ruby and had done considerable rea search on the murder of JFK; Johnny Roselli and Sam Giancana, both found dead days before testifying before the HSCA. Roselli and Giancana were both proved to be involved in CIA attempts on Castro’s life along with New Orleans mobster Carlos Marcello. The mob had very personal reasons to murder JFK. Marcello had been forcibly kidnapped and deported to Guatemala by RFK. Jack Ruby was closely tied to the mob. Hoover said, within hours, LHO did it, without any facts, another interesting tidbit.

The fact that both LHO and RFK met “untimely” deaths indicates something of conspiracy. RFK, if elected, would have had every reason and all the power to bring on a tough investigation.

Also the railroad employee who saw two men in that area of the time of the shooting died in a car accident.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Bowers

It's pretty clear that given how long the redactions are taking, there will be nothing useful in the results. Not just names are being erased, entire pages of stuff will show up as black boxes.

That “the magic bullet” could do exactly what it did, is shown so many times by so many independent enthusiasts, film makers and agencies that those speculations really need to stop;-)

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

It’s up to history now, there’ll never be a trial. Read up on the Warren Commission from a different perspective. Allen Dulles represented the CIA, as former DCI he was in charge of the Castro murder attempts kept secret from the Commission. He also had been publicly fired from that job by JFK. Four members are on record expressing doubts about the report, specifically the magic bullet theory.

I think those are directly comparable. Still believing in Kennedy assasination conspiracy theories takes as much anti-science and paranoia as with 9-11 and 5g Corona vaccines.

That the politics, fringe groups, mafia, Jedgar led FBI, Cuba, the cold war climate and all of that showed as complete full blown weirdness at the time and in the aftermath, doesn’t really come into it, as the murder itself is completely explained.

Who/how/if Oswald was externally influenced/motivated to do this other than just not understanding the workd in general, is another matter. Michael Paine, Mohrenschildt etc. but it being a conspiracy to murder is very, very hard to believe.

Aaron747 wrote:

M564038 wrote:

Yes, much the same as any of those Behring-Breivik/Oswald-types touch the radar screens of intelligence and/or police at some point. They aren’t quite normal, you know. Thankfully.

In this sense an interesting parallel is how the Swedish police finally pointed to a quite obvious suspect in the unsolved 1986 Olof Palme-murder last year.

In that case, their investigators really, really wanted it to be an international conspiracy of some grandesse, then turning to some random drunk when someone else took over the investigation. All the while overlooking a couple of very obvious suspects for decades, before finally declaring one of them (now deceased) as the likely murderer as late as last year, closing the investigation.
(There were actually 2 of them, I happen to think it was the other one;-) I have no evidence)

There was just a (pretty mediocre) Netflix true-crime drama that came out about it last week, called “the unlikely murderer” or something to that effect.
Which is a bad title, because that was also all about an somewhat odd outsider in need of grandeur.

Aaron747 wrote:

Not only that, but the immediate cover story following the assassination was that LHO was an unknown guy and a nobody. Nothing was further from the truth - records HSCA examined indicated LHO was on CIA's radar, was a subject of FBI interest multiple times, and was possibly being manipulated from 1959 onward. The guy defects to USSR in 1961, comes home with Russian bride, and isn't being monitored?
Mmkay, yeah, a real nobody.

Just saw your other edited comment - this is not comparable to 9/11 conspiracy theory. Those people have an anti-government agenda, or are otherwise science deniers who use completely false understanding of Newtonian physics and other things beyond their depth to justify 'theories'. The problem with the JFK assassination is mountains of records the public have still been denied access to that were compiled at taxpayer expense, untimely deaths of witnesses, and many questionable practices / possible evidence tampering with the autopsy and other issues. That is not anywhere on par with zany 9/11 conspiracies.

I considered it, but I am not going to throw video-links around. Even the IPCC only have 97% of scientists in agreement with them.
Of course you are going to find an outlier in any field. But his views does not represent the consensus among pathologists having looked into the case. Dr. Wecht analysis is not at all in line with his collegaues.

Aaron747 wrote:

M564038 wrote:

That “the magic bullet” could do exactly what it did, is shown so many times by so many independent enthusiasts, film makers and agencies that those speculations really need to stop;-)

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

It’s up to history now, there’ll never be a trial. Read up on the Warren Commission from a different perspective. Allen Dulles represented the CIA, as former DCI he was in charge of the Castro murder attempts kept secret from the Commission. He also had been publicly fired from that job by JFK. Four members are on record expressing doubts about the report, specifically the magic bullet theory.

Perhaps you should consider viewpoints from pathologists instead:

https://youtu.be/mqr8cfATwyo

M564038 wrote:

I think those are directly comparable. Still believing in Kennedy assasination conspiracy theories takes as much anti-science and paranoia as with 9-11 and 5g Corona vaccines.

That the politics, fringe groups, mafia, Jedgar led FBI, Cuba, the cold war climate and all of that showed as complete full blown weirdness at the time and in the aftermath, doesn’t really come into it, as the murder itself is completely explained.

Who/how/if Oswald was externally influenced/motivated to do this other than just not understanding the workd in general, is another matter. Michael Paine, Mohrenschildt etc. but it being a conspiracy to murder is very, very hard to believe.

Aaron747 wrote:

M564038 wrote:

Yes, much the same as any of those Behring-Breivik/Oswald-types touch the radar screens of intelligence and/or police at some point. They aren’t quite normal, you know. Thankfully.

In this sense an interesting parallel is how the Swedish police finally pointed to a quite obvious suspect in the unsolved 1986 Olof Palme-murder last year.

In that case, their investigators really, really wanted it to be an international conspiracy of some grandesse, then turning to some random drunk when someone else took over the investigation. All the while overlooking a couple of very obvious suspects for decades, before finally declaring one of them (now deceased) as the likely murderer as late as last year, closing the investigation.
(There were actually 2 of them, I happen to think it was the other one;-) I have no evidence)

There was just a (pretty mediocre) Netflix true-crime drama that came out about it last week, called “the unlikely murderer” or something to that effect.
Which is a bad title, because that was also all about an somewhat odd outsider in need of grandeur.

Just saw your other edited comment - this is not comparable to 9/11 conspiracy theory. Those people have an anti-government agenda, or are otherwise science deniers who use completely false understanding of Newtonian physics and other things beyond their depth to justify 'theories'. The problem with the JFK assassination is mountains of records the public have still been denied access to that were compiled at taxpayer expense, untimely deaths of witnesses, and many questionable practices / possible evidence tampering with the autopsy and other issues. That is not anywhere on par with zany 9/11 conspiracies.

I fail to see where science comes into the facts of those involved. Jack Ruby had ties to the Chicago mafia, fact. Ruby was seen repeatedly in and around the Dallas Police HQ before and after the murder. He was defended by a known mob attorney, fact. The idea that he just woke and in passion for JFK shot LHO doesn’t make sense. It’s not science, it’s facts.

That the CIA had ties with and used the Mafia, specifically the Giancana and Marcelo crews is fact. That they used the Mob to attempt Castro assassinations is a fact. That many sketchy characters that later were part of the Watergate fiasco figure into the Cuban connections and were named by the Commission is fact. E. Howard Hunt prominently.

Mary Meyer was JFK’s lover is fact as is the fact her ex-husband was a CIA officer. The government framed and tried a local black man in the case who was acquitted, fact. That both James Angleton and Ben Bradlee found each other searching for her diary on her house is fact.

That Johnny Roselli and Sam Giancana were murdered just before testifying before Congress is fact and rather suspicious considering their prominence in the case.

Lots of new research has come out in recent years as people who hid for years start talking. For example the girl who watched the assassination from the fifth floor. She’s stated that she never saw LHO on the stairs that day.

Those are arguable facts, not undisputed science. That the CIA continues to hide and redact documents only adds to suspicions. Yes, there are nutty conspiracies; there are also inconclusive facts that add doubt and aren’t going away. I always liked the strange fact that neither Nixon, nor Bush the father could remember exactly where they were that day. Several of their statements have been contradictory and contradicted by their offices. I don’t think either were part of a conspiracy, but everyone including me remember in detail where we were, just as on 9/11.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

M564038 wrote:

I think those are directly comparable. Still believing in Kennedy assasination conspiracy theories takes as much anti-science and paranoia as with 9-11 and 5g Corona vaccines.

That the politics, fringe groups, mafia, Jedgar led FBI, Cuba, the cold war climate and all of that showed as complete full blown weirdness at the time and in the aftermath, doesn’t really come into it, as the murder itself is completely explained.

Who/how/if Oswald was externally influenced/motivated to do this other than just not understanding the workd in general, is another matter. Michael Paine, Mohrenschildt etc. but it being a conspiracy to murder is very, very hard to believe.

Aaron747 wrote:

Just saw your other edited comment - this is not comparable to 9/11 conspiracy theory. Those people have an anti-government agenda, or are otherwise science deniers who use completely false understanding of Newtonian physics and other things beyond their depth to justify 'theories'. The problem with the JFK assassination is mountains of records the public have still been denied access to that were compiled at taxpayer expense, untimely deaths of witnesses, and many questionable practices / possible evidence tampering with the autopsy and other issues. That is not anywhere on par with zany 9/11 conspiracies.

I fail to see where science comes into the facts of those involved. Jack Ruby had ties to the Chicago mafia, fact. Ruby was seen repeatedly in and around the Dallas Police HQ before and after the murder. He was defended by a known mob attorney, fact. The idea that he just woke and in passion for JFK shot LHO doesn’t make sense. It’s not science, it’s facts.

That the CIA had ties with and used the Mafia, specifically the Giancana and Marcelo crews is fact. That they used the Mob to attempt Castro assassinations is a fact. That many sketchy characters that later were part of the Watergate fiasco figure into the Cuban connections and were named by the Commission is fact. E. Howard Hunt prominently.

Mary Meyer was JFK’s lover is fact as is the fact her ex-husband was a CIA officer. The government framed and tried a local black man in the case who was acquitted, fact. That both James Angleton and Ben Bradlee found each other searching for her diary on her house is fact.

That Johnny Roselli and Sam Giancana were murdered just before testifying before Congress is fact and rather suspicious considering their prominence in the case.

Lots of new research has come out in recent years as people who hid for years start talking. For example the girl who watched the assassination from the fifth floor. She’s stated that she never saw LHO on the stairs that day.

Those are arguable facts, not undisputed science. That the CIA continues to hide and redact documents only adds to suspicions. Yes, there are nutty conspiracies; there are also inconclusive facts that add doubt and aren’t going away. I always liked the strange fact that neither Nixon, nor Bush the father could remember exactly where they were that day. Several of their statements have been contradictory and contradicted by their offices. I don’t think either were part of a conspiracy, but everyone including me remember in detail where we were, just as on 9/11.

The main issue though, is that Ruby never would have shot Oswald, if
1. Oswald had been transported on time(10:00 A.M)
2. Ruby hadn't gone to wire money to one of his dancers, and happened to go back to his car 80 minutes after Oswald was supposed to have bene transferred. Ruby killed on impulse.

LHO killed on opportunity and planning.

Yes. Maybe the one with the means and the motive just happened to take him out first;-) Cause he, an emotionally unstable sharpshooter that fits the profile of literally any other american presidental assasin and his gun with the correct ammunition was there when it happened. Exactly where the majority of the witnesses says the shots came from.

But that is too simple, right?

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

M564038 wrote:

I think those are directly comparable. Still believing in Kennedy assasination conspiracy theories takes as much anti-science and paranoia as with 9-11 and 5g Corona vaccines.

That the politics, fringe groups, mafia, Jedgar led FBI, Cuba, the cold war climate and all of that showed as complete full blown weirdness at the time and in the aftermath, doesn’t really come into it, as the murder itself is completely explained.

Who/how/if Oswald was externally influenced/motivated to do this other than just not understanding the workd in general, is another matter. Michael Paine, Mohrenschildt etc. but it being a conspiracy to murder is very, very hard to believe.

Aaron747 wrote:

Just saw your other edited comment - this is not comparable to 9/11 conspiracy theory. Those people have an anti-government agenda, or are otherwise science deniers who use completely false understanding of Newtonian physics and other things beyond their depth to justify 'theories'. The problem with the JFK assassination is mountains of records the public have still been denied access to that were compiled at taxpayer expense, untimely deaths of witnesses, and many questionable practices / possible evidence tampering with the autopsy and other issues. That is not anywhere on par with zany 9/11 conspiracies.

I fail to see where science comes into the facts of those involved. Jack Ruby had ties to the Chicago mafia, fact. Ruby was seen repeatedly in and around the Dallas Police HQ before and after the murder. He was defended by a known mob attorney, fact. The idea that he just woke and in passion for JFK shot LHO doesn’t make sense. It’s not science, it’s facts.

That the CIA had ties with and used the Mafia, specifically the Giancana and Marcelo crews is fact. That they used the Mob to attempt Castro assassinations is a fact. That many sketchy characters that later were part of the Watergate fiasco figure into the Cuban connections and were named by the Commission is fact. E. Howard Hunt prominently.

Mary Meyer was JFK’s lover is fact as is the fact her ex-husband was a CIA officer. The government framed and tried a local black man in the case who was acquitted, fact. That both James Angleton and Ben Bradlee found each other searching for her diary on her house is fact.

That Johnny Roselli and Sam Giancana were murdered just before testifying before Congress is fact and rather suspicious considering their prominence in the case.

Lots of new research has come out in recent years as people who hid for years start talking. For example the girl who watched the assassination from the fifth floor. She’s stated that she never saw LHO on the stairs that day.

Those are arguable facts, not undisputed science. That the CIA continues to hide and redact documents only adds to suspicions. Yes, there are nutty conspiracies; there are also inconclusive facts that add doubt and aren’t going away. I always liked the strange fact that neither Nixon, nor Bush the father could remember exactly where they were that day. Several of their statements have been contradictory and contradicted by their offices. I don’t think either were part of a conspiracy, but everyone including me remember in detail where we were, just as on 9/11.

LHO was hardly a trained sniper, he got a Marine rifle qualification on a range. Pulling off the assassination of the century with a modest weapon, firing an improbably perfect series of shots. The others who killed presidents did so at close range, even within inches—very different shot solution. There’s no evident that LHO was that good, but luck may have been with him that day. There is way too many coincidences for me to believe.

Newark727 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

You’re right, it’s not easy - but far easier within the insular world of the national security state. The Watergate conspirators consisted of WH and party officials and politicians are the last group of people you could find to keep quiet (or organized). Intel pros and operatives? Different animal.

You mean the same national security state that had just given us the Bay of Pigs?

But seriously, it's less a problem of careers and expertise, than of human nature and management. If you look at the history of Cold War spies, you find people who took enormous risks compromising national security information for the most agonizingly petty reasons - every combination of vanity, greed, pride, and delusion you can think of. Moreover, even if you're lucky enough to not have anyone disgruntled enough to leak anything, you have to keep some combination of invented facts consistent across dozens if not hundreds of people, sometimes without their knowledge.

So there are still some secrets left after all this time. What does that mean? Essentially, given a choice between malice aforethought between some group of CIA/FBI/Mafiosi/etc., and fumbling bureaucratic ass-covering to keep some random functionary from looking bad, my money's going to be on the latter every time.

That’s the best argument for there NOT being a conspiracy—they tend to leak. But, we’re dealing with the CIA and the Mafia, pretty good at keeping omertà. The CIA kept the Castro murder attempts secret until Colby released the “jewels”. He was hated for betrayal the agency, too. E. Howard Hunt admitted the conspiracy then retracted before he died. Michael Franseze says it well known in the mob that they were in on it. I doubt he has reason to lie at this stage.

He was a trained sharpshooter, but not a sniper.
Doesn’t matter.
It has been shown repeatedly that people with his sort of skill or lower could hit that target with such a rifle, with little or no preparation.

Have you ever measured up that distance? Because it is a lot shorter than what TV wide shots make you believe.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

LHO was hardly a trained sniper, he got a Marine rifle qualification on a range. Pulling off the assassination of the century with a modest weapon, firing an improbably perfect series of shots. The others who killed presidents did so at close range, even within inches—very different shot solution. There’s no evident that LHO was that good, but luck may have been with him that day. There is way too many coincidences for me to believe.

Aaron747 wrote:

True enough, but again, what need is there to protect any mere functionaries through redaction after 60 years..?

I’ve always believed the only “conspiracy” behind it all was attempts to cover woeful incompetence on the government’s part.

Oswald had already attempted to shoot Edwin Walker. He was on the government radar as he well should have been, given the whole moving to the Soviet Union thing.

The simplest reasoning is that some 24 year old kid who couldn’t even hold down a job somehow managed to shoot the president. The govt had some degree of knowledge about him, and they certainly weren’t new to protecting the presidents life…but he made them look stupid. The shots may have been lucky, but he still hit.

As for Ruby…small time wannabe gangster looking to make the news. You kill the most hated man in possibly the entire western world, and you’ll get the fame and notoriety.

M564038 wrote:

He was a trained sharpshooter, but not a sniper.
Doesn’t matter.
It has been shown repeatedly that people with his sort of skill or lower could hit that target with such a rifle, with little or no preparation.

Have you ever measured up that distance? Because it is a lot shorter than what TV wide shots make you believe.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

LHO was hardly a trained sniper, he got a Marine rifle qualification on a range. Pulling off the assassination of the century with a modest weapon, firing an improbably perfect series of shots. The others who killed presidents did so at close range, even within inches—very different shot solution. There’s no evident that LHO was that good, but luck may have been with him that day. There is way too many coincidences for me to believe.

Shooting at a moving paper target and shooting at the President are two very different things.

I have seen Dealey Plaza and it’s not a long shot, true. Better trained shooters regularly miss targets a lot closer with many more shots taken. If he did it, he was very lucky.

FGITD wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

True enough, but again, what need is there to protect any mere functionaries through redaction after 60 years..?

I’ve always believed the only “conspiracy” behind it all was attempts to cover woeful incompetence on the government’s part.

Oswald had already attempted to shoot Edwin Walker. He was on the government radar as he well should have been, given the whole moving to the Soviet Union thing.

The simplest reasoning is that some 24 year old kid who couldn’t even hold down a job somehow managed to shoot the president. The govt had some degree of knowledge about him, and they certainly weren’t new to protecting the presidents life…but he made them look stupid. The shots may have been lucky, but he still hit.

As for Ruby…small time wannabe gangster looking to make the news. You kill the most hated man in possibly the entire western world, and you’ll get the fame and notoriety.

I’d agree with that and it’s entirely possible there were unrelated “conspiracies”—the group that killed the President and the group caught out and trying to hide their incompetence. The two might work to the same conclusion.

If there was a conspiracy to kill JFK, I’d not dismiss it out of hand, it would have been a small group, not a government group, and one with strong interest in keeping quiet. Just consider what it took to break the Mafia’s omerta. There remains many mob murders that remain unresolved.

The shots were within LHO's level of expertise. He couldn't do it every time, but everything aligned that day.

M564038 wrote:

There most certainly isn’t.

NIKV69 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

Yip I don't for one minute think Oswald was alone in this.

Not when there is photographic evidence with corroboration that someone fired from the picket fence in the parking lot.

What do you think about the bullet sound theory when the test in the 80s corroborated it?

There are many people who were in the plaza who who heard 4 shots, many of them from the Grassy Knoll

Out of the 104 Dealey Plaza earwitness reports published by the Commission and elsewhere, 56 recorded testimony that they remembered hearing at least one shot fired from either the Depository or near the Houston/Elm Street intersection. 35 witnesses recorded testimony of at least one shot fired from either the grassy knoll or the triple underpass.

You can't discount these people.

What is it about?

TWA772LR wrote:

M564038 wrote:

There most certainly isn’t.

NIKV69 wrote:

Not when there is photographic evidence with corroboration that someone fired from the picket fence in the parking lot.

What do you think about the bullet sound theory when the test in the 80s corroborated it?

TWA772LR wrote:

M564038 wrote:

There most certainly isn’t.

NIKV69 wrote:

Not when there is photographic evidence with corroboration that someone fired from the picket fence in the parking lot.

What do you think about the bullet sound theory when the test in the 80s corroborated it?

One needs to just watch the Zapruder film with real time sound to know Oswald wasn't the only shooter.

Aaron747 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

There are many people who were in the plaza who who heard 4 shots, many of them from the Grassy Knoll

Out of the 104 Dealey Plaza earwitness reports published by the Commission and elsewhere, 56 recorded testimony that they remembered hearing at least one shot fired from either the Depository or near the Houston/Elm Street intersection. 35 witnesses recorded testimony of at least one shot fired from either the grassy knoll or the triple underpass.

You can't discount these people.

Several of these witnesses were local railroad workers who observed the motorcade from the overpass. According to them, despite being interviewed by local police and the FBI, the Warren commission ignored their testimony and never contacted them. That's a huge red flag as they had an elevated view and all reported smoke from under trees to the left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEq63vTOwcI

The other significant factor is most witnesses say they heard a first shot, a pause, and then two more shots on top of one another. Anyone remotely familiar with weapons knows that can't be done with a bolt action rifle.

Yep

Kiwirob wrote:

There are many people who were in the plaza who who heard 4 shots, many of them from the Grassy Knoll

Out of the 104 Dealey Plaza earwitness reports published by the Commission and elsewhere, 56 recorded testimony that they remembered hearing at least one shot fired from either the Depository or near the Houston/Elm Street intersection. 35 witnesses recorded testimony of at least one shot fired from either the grassy knoll or the triple underpass.

You can't discount these people.

Gordon Arnold was standing right in front and to the right of the shooter and said the bullet went right by his head, he dove for cover and his story was verified by people in the motorcade and Mary Moorman's photo which clearly shows him trying to video tape the motorcade and two others behind him at the fence. This evidence is clear and can not be discounted. The woman standing next to Mary Moorman heard the shot come from that area. Just watch the 2nd installment of "The men who killed Kennedy" The picture speaks for itself.

Since when was eye (ear)witness testimony reliable?

I was not aware that there existed syncronized (!) sound taken from the same location as the Zapruder film from at least 2 microphens as to be able to deduct anything from intensity and time.

I have done professional forensic audio work, with the most capable tools of the trade, and would be very interested in looking into this.
Can you direct me to a relevant analysis and unaltered sound?

NIKV69 wrote:

TWA772LR wrote:

M564038 wrote:

There most certainly isn’t.

What do you think about the bullet sound theory when the test in the 80s corroborated it?

One needs to just watch the Zapruder film with real time sound to know Oswald wasn't the only shooter.

Aaron747 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

There are many people who were in the plaza who who heard 4 shots, many of them from the Grassy Knoll

Out of the 104 Dealey Plaza earwitness reports published by the Commission and elsewhere, 56 recorded testimony that they remembered hearing at least one shot fired from either the Depository or near the Houston/Elm Street intersection. 35 witnesses recorded testimony of at least one shot fired from either the grassy knoll or the triple underpass.

You can't discount these people.

Several of these witnesses were local railroad workers who observed the motorcade from the overpass. According to them, despite being interviewed by local police and the FBI, the Warren commission ignored their testimony and never contacted them. That's a huge red flag as they had an elevated view and all reported smoke from under trees to the left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEq63vTOwcI

The other significant factor is most witnesses say they heard a first shot, a pause, and then two more shots on top of one another. Anyone remotely familiar with weapons knows that can't be done with a bolt action rifle.

Yep

Kiwirob wrote:

There are many people who were in the plaza who who heard 4 shots, many of them from the Grassy Knoll

Out of the 104 Dealey Plaza earwitness reports published by the Commission and elsewhere, 56 recorded testimony that they remembered hearing at least one shot fired from either the Depository or near the Houston/Elm Street intersection. 35 witnesses recorded testimony of at least one shot fired from either the grassy knoll or the triple underpass.

You can't discount these people.

Gordon Arnold was standing right in front and to the right of the shooter and said the bullet went right by his head, he dove for cover and his story was verified by people in the motorcade and Mary Moorman's photo which clearly shows him trying to video tape the motorcade and two others behind him at the fence. This evidence is clear and can not be discounted. The woman standing next to Mary Moorman heard the shot come from that area. Just watch the 2nd installment of "The men who killed Kennedy" The picture speaks for itself.

meecrob wrote:

Since when was eye (ear)witness testimony reliable?

It is even MUCH less reliable than eyewitness testimony when "qualities" of the sound including intensity and direction is conserned, especially when sounds comes from behind 180 degrees in front of the listener. Then there's also discrete echoes, combined with the absorbing terrain, distances seperating discrete echoes and simple precedence effect. It gets very complicated, and very unreliable very fast.

meecrob wrote:

Since when was eye (ear)witness testimony reliable?

When it is corroborated by photographic evidence and other people who are saying the same thing that don't know each other.

I was 9 when JFK's assassination took place. It is still one of the most memorable events in my life, only exceeded by 9/11. A lot of mistakes were made that led to it, I think the holdup of records almost 70 years later is about not wanting to bring shame (or truth) to the Secret Service, the FBI, local and state police agencies and agents involved. Even if long dead, families of agents involved would likely face social media harassment. Some of the still retained records may be hearsay evidence, from unverified sources, lies that would just feed the many conspiracies involved. As I have long believed the USSR or Castro/Cuba may have been part of the plot, bringing it up if part of the records would make a hot mess of diplomacy already difficult involving current day Russia and post-Castro Cuba.

Stand under rifle targets in the pit and bullets passing overhead are very distinguishable. There’s a ton of research and books written. Some are obviously nutty, others have some real significance. The Mafia history from the early days of Cuba have relevance; now we dismiss them but in the 60s they were a real power. Jimmy Hoffa was a big deal, Nixon getting Teamsters endorsement was huge news. The CIA has some close ties to them as proven by various well recorded investigations. All this at a time J. Edgar Hoover was telling the nation the Mob didn’t exist. Oops.

It’s all circumstantial, but cannot be dismissed as worthless and entirely useful to historians.