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skyservice_330
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Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:39 pm

A lot of media coverage on the different elements of the legal ramifications for those that were involved in the violent 'Unite the Right' gathering and the Jan 6 insurrection -

Jan. 6 rioter in horned fur hat sentenced to 41 months
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/jan-6-riot ... -1.5670082

Most heavily armed January 6 rioter pleads guilty to bringing five firearms and 11 Molotov cocktails to Capitol
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 57164.html

US Capitol rioter who assaulted police officer gets 41 months in prison
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/10/politics ... index.html

Unite the Right organizer appeared to instruct followers to mislead law enforcement, court evidence suggests
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va ... -cantwell/

“I Want Them To Start Something”: White Supremacists Allegedly Strategized How To Provoke Counterprotesters Ahead Of The “Unite The Right” Rally
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ch ... r-cantwell

Two “Unite The Right” Defendants Asked The Judge To Dismiss Their Case. It Backfired Spectacularly.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ch ... rd-spencer

Some initial thoughts -

- The Jan 6 storm of the capitol represents a massive security failure - those involved in storming the building, hunting for politicians they disagreed with, and brutalizing police officers must be prosecuted. They attempted to interfere with the democratic process, and there should be a top to bottom investigation of how it transpired, who knew what, and when they knew it. If elected officials or party operatives were aware or somehow complicit, that is inexcusable. If someone is showing up with Molotov cocktails and spears to a supposedly peaceful protest, then planned nefarious intent cannot be dismissed.

- I worry about the martyrdom effect this could have on susceptible minds - instead of these perpetrators of violence being seen as such, they will be seen as martyrs - to be celebrated, glorified - and the motivation this could have on others to undertake violence in their name(s) is concerning.

As more charges are laid, pleas and admissions are made, or legal resolutions are pursued this thread can serve as an inventory for tracking and discussing.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:45 am

Oh they are definitely seen as heroes by nutjobs already. Being investigated by the FBI is a badge of honor for such folks because the FBI is the enemy :sarcastic:
 
johns624
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:58 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Oh they are definitely seen as heroes by nutjobs already. Being investigated by the FBI is a badge of honor for such folks because the FBI is the enemy :sarcastic:
On the one hand, they're seen as martyrs. On the other, I don't think any of these armchair idolizers wants to follow in their footsteps and be thrown in prison.
When you really think about it, for all of the millions of people who thought the election was stolen, a tiny percentage of them actually showed up in DC to do anything about it. There were still too many, but it shows that most just have big mouths.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:19 pm

johns624 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Oh they are definitely seen as heroes by nutjobs already. Being investigated by the FBI is a badge of honor for such folks because the FBI is the enemy :sarcastic:
On the one hand, they're seen as martyrs. On the other, I don't think any of these armchair idolizers wants to follow in their footsteps and be thrown in prison.
When you really think about it, for all of the millions of people who thought the election was stolen, a tiny percentage of them actually showed up in DC to do anything about it. There were still too many, but it shows that most just have big mouths.



They are criminals and wannabee terrorists. They can be seen in prison as heroes by those too stupid to recognize that they are being protected from their uncivilized actions as well.

There would have probably been a lot more if it had occurred on a weekend instead of a Wednesday.
 
johns624
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:18 pm

casinterest wrote:

There would have probably been a lot more if it had occurred on a weekend instead of a Wednesday.
True, but that also kinda makes the point. Their job is more important than any political beliefs. Just like all the antivaxxers with "strong" principles, until they'd lose their job, and then 99% of them got the vaccine.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:34 pm

johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

There would have probably been a lot more if it had occurred on a weekend instead of a Wednesday.
True, but that also kinda makes the point. Their job is more important than any political beliefs. Just like all the antivaxxers with "strong" principles, until they'd lose their job, and then 99% of them got the vaccine.



The issue though is that if it had been a weekend, a lot more would have shown up, and a lot more damage would have been done. Sure they would cry about jobs later, but never underestimate a mob mentality when misinformation is present.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:44 pm

A judge held a light up to the elected officials lies about the election in sentencing a man to 14 days for his part.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/11/1 ... ack-523059

“He didn’t purposely come to Washington, D.C., to storm the Capitol,” said Mehta. “The fact remains that he and others were called to Washington, D.C., by an elected official, prompted to walk to the Capitol by an elected official.”


“People like Mr. Lolos were told lies, told falsehoods, told our election was stolen when it clearly was not,” Mehta continued, adding that the defendants were paying for conduct that was largely enabled by Trump and his allies. “We’re here today deciding whether Mr. Lolos should spend 30 days in jail when those who created the conditions that led to Mr. Lolos’ conduct, led to the events of Jan. 6 [haven’t been] held to account for their actions and their word.”

“In a sense, Mr. Lolos, I think you were a pawn,” Mehta continued. “You were a pawn in a game directed and played by people who should know better. I think that mitigates your conduct.”



It would seem there are federal judges that already see the culpability of the previous administration in creating the environment of lies that brought about the events of Jan 6. Can't wait to see more cases litigated against the organizers of the rally.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:21 pm

We have some stunning new developments in the Legal fights.

Mark Meadows, who was going to comply, but then didn't is now being charged with Contempt.
However, prior to having a "Change" of heart. Meadows supplied over 9000 documents to Congress.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/13/us/p ... tempt.html


"The committee voted 9 to 0 on Monday evening to recommend that Mr. Meadows be charged with criminal contempt of Congress for defying its subpoena. Before the vote, Representative Liz Cheney, one of the leaders of the panel, added to the evidence implicating Mr. Meadows in events of Jan. 6. She read aloud text messages sent to him by the president’s son Donald Trump Jr. and by the Fox News hosts Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham and Brian Kilmeade urging that Mr. Trump speak out amid the mob violence."

The texts highlight that everyone was well aware of what was going on and why. This was no peaceful protest. It was a riot and attempt at overturning the will of the people.

Mark Meadows is probably on Trump's "do not call" list now, and these documents will help to paint a clearer picture of who, why and how these protests were organized.
I have to guess that we still haven't seen some of the really good stuff leading into Jan 6.

What is also concerning is the two -face stance of many of the Fox News infotainment talking heads as they are trying to stop it, but then go on their shows and claim it was all nothing. Remind me again how they have millions watching their lies?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:54 pm

casinterest wrote:
We have some stunning new developments in the Legal fights.

Mark Meadows, who was going to comply, but then didn't is now being charged with Contempt.
However, prior to having a "Change" of heart. Meadows supplied over 9000 documents to Congress.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/13/us/p ... tempt.html


"The committee voted 9 to 0 on Monday evening to recommend that Mr. Meadows be charged with criminal contempt of Congress for defying its subpoena. Before the vote, Representative Liz Cheney, one of the leaders of the panel, added to the evidence implicating Mr. Meadows in events of Jan. 6. She read aloud text messages sent to him by the president’s son Donald Trump Jr. and by the Fox News hosts Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham and Brian Kilmeade urging that Mr. Trump speak out amid the mob violence."

The texts highlight that everyone was well aware of what was going on and why. This was no peaceful protest. It was a riot and attempt at overturning the will of the people.

Mark Meadows is probably on Trump's "do not call" list now, and these documents will help to paint a clearer picture of who, why and how these protests were organized.
I have to guess that we still haven't seen some of the really good stuff leading into Jan 6.

What is also concerning is the two -face stance of many of the Fox News infotainment talking heads as they are trying to stop it, but then go on their shows and claim it was all nothing. Remind me again how they have millions watching their lies?


The texts are incredible - now everyone knows it’s 100% necessary to see the ones that were not released to Congress, such as planning communications between rioters and WH staff/members of Congress.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:56 am

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
We have some stunning new developments in the Legal fights.

Mark Meadows, who was going to comply, but then didn't is now being charged with Contempt.
However, prior to having a "Change" of heart. Meadows supplied over 9000 documents to Congress.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/13/us/p ... tempt.html


"The committee voted 9 to 0 on Monday evening to recommend that Mr. Meadows be charged with criminal contempt of Congress for defying its subpoena. Before the vote, Representative Liz Cheney, one of the leaders of the panel, added to the evidence implicating Mr. Meadows in events of Jan. 6. She read aloud text messages sent to him by the president’s son Donald Trump Jr. and by the Fox News hosts Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham and Brian Kilmeade urging that Mr. Trump speak out amid the mob violence."

The texts highlight that everyone was well aware of what was going on and why. This was no peaceful protest. It was a riot and attempt at overturning the will of the people.

Mark Meadows is probably on Trump's "do not call" list now, and these documents will help to paint a clearer picture of who, why and how these protests were organized.
I have to guess that we still haven't seen some of the really good stuff leading into Jan 6.

What is also concerning is the two -face stance of many of the Fox News infotainment talking heads as they are trying to stop it, but then go on their shows and claim it was all nothing. Remind me again how they have millions watching their lies?


The texts are incredible - now everyone knows it’s 100% necessary to see the ones that were not released to Congress, such as planning communications between rioters and WH staff/members of Congress.


I am interested in all 147 of the GOP members that voted against upholding the Electoral vote. There have to be some real gems in there. I also want to see Ivanka Trump's texts. She holds a dearer place in her dad's trust than the boys, and i think there will be some very revealing conversations amongst her and Jared.
 
skyservice_330
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:51 pm

casinterest wrote:
We have some stunning new developments in the Legal fights.

Mark Meadows, who was going to comply, but then didn't is now being charged with Contempt.
However, prior to having a "Change" of heart. Meadows supplied over 9000 documents to Congress.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/13/us/p ... tempt.html


"The committee voted 9 to 0 on Monday evening to recommend that Mr. Meadows be charged with criminal contempt of Congress for defying its subpoena. Before the vote, Representative Liz Cheney, one of the leaders of the panel, added to the evidence implicating Mr. Meadows in events of Jan. 6. She read aloud text messages sent to him by the president’s son Donald Trump Jr. and by the Fox News hosts Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham and Brian Kilmeade urging that Mr. Trump speak out amid the mob violence."

The texts highlight that everyone was well aware of what was going on and why. This was no peaceful protest. It was a riot and attempt at overturning the will of the people.

Mark Meadows is probably on Trump's "do not call" list now, and these documents will help to paint a clearer picture of who, why and how these protests were organized.
I have to guess that we still haven't seen some of the really good stuff leading into Jan 6.

What is also concerning is the two -face stance of many of the Fox News infotainment talking heads as they are trying to stop it, but then go on their shows and claim it was all nothing. Remind me again how they have millions watching their lies?


If nothing else, the texts show the extent to which the Fox News apparatus was more or less an embedded wing of the Trump White House. Which, while not surprising, more or less confirms what people were saying over the years and others denied or downplayed. I mean, their top personalities had a direct pipeline/reach to the Chief of Staff. That's a little more close then 'Hey, meet me in the corner of a dark bar and I'll give you the heads up on some dirt' as has been the traditional dance with politicians and reporters. They were not cheerleaders from afar - the texts clearly show the degree of access and influence.
 
skyservice_330
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:24 pm

Some further developments out of the courts...

Toughest sentence yet for any Capitol rioter: over 5 years

This guy attacked police with a fire extinguisher! Goodness. This was an interesting note from the article...

Palmer said in a handwritten letter to the judge that he felt betrayed by Trump and his allies who fed them conspiracy theories.

“Trump supporters were lied to by those at the time who had great power,” he wrote. “They kept spitting out the false narrative about a stolen election and how it was ‘our duty’ to stand up to tyranny.”


And here is another - this guy had car trouble on the way to Jan 6. but seemed intent to attend the Trump rally and also assassinate Pelosi...

Man who threatened to shoot Pelosi sentenced to more than two years in prison

A Georgia man who drove cross-country with an assault rifle and threatened to kill House Speaker Nancy Pelosi was sentenced to 28 months behind bars in an emotional hearing on Tuesday.

Cleveland Meredith Jr. pleaded guilty in September to sending threatening communications. Though he missed the January 6 rally because of car troubles, Meredith was one of the first people charged in relation to the Capitol riot after his mother reported concerning texts to the FBI on January 7.


Just a peaceful protest that got out of hand, right?
 
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:28 pm

casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Oh they are definitely seen as heroes by nutjobs already. Being investigated by the FBI is a badge of honor for such folks because the FBI is the enemy :sarcastic:
On the one hand, they're seen as martyrs. On the other, I don't think any of these armchair idolizers wants to follow in their footsteps and be thrown in prison.
When you really think about it, for all of the millions of people who thought the election was stolen, a tiny percentage of them actually showed up in DC to do anything about it. There were still too many, but it shows that most just have big mouths.



They are criminals and wannabee terrorists. They can be seen in prison as heroes by those too stupid to recognize that they are being protected from their uncivilized actions as well.

There would have probably been a lot more if it had occurred on a weekend instead of a Wednesday.


Without disagreeing at all that the Jan 6 mob in the capitol were criminals and terrorists, but in a typical US city, the right wing has nothing to do with the hundreds of shootings (per major city) and the burning and looting going on.

I understand right wing criminality is a major issue,
But it’s not even 1% of the crime and terror issue where I have been living. The 99% of big city crime affecting urban people like me is something other than right wing. When people say right wing criminality is the major issue of our times, there is quite some projection involved in that (I’m not the criminal, the policeman arresting me is the real criminal!)
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:43 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
On the one hand, they're seen as martyrs. On the other, I don't think any of these armchair idolizers wants to follow in their footsteps and be thrown in prison.
When you really think about it, for all of the millions of people who thought the election was stolen, a tiny percentage of them actually showed up in DC to do anything about it. There were still too many, but it shows that most just have big mouths.



They are criminals and wannabee terrorists. They can be seen in prison as heroes by those too stupid to recognize that they are being protected from their uncivilized actions as well.

There would have probably been a lot more if it had occurred on a weekend instead of a Wednesday.


Without disagreeing at all that the Jan 6 mob in the capitol were criminals and terrorists, but in a typical US city, the right wing has nothing to do with the hundreds of shootings (per major city) and the burning and looting going on.

I understand right wing criminality is a major issue,
But it’s not even 1% of the crime and terror issue where I have been living. The 99% of big city crime affecting urban people like me is something other than right wing. When people say right wing criminality is the major issue of our times, there is quite some projection involved in that (I’m not the criminal, the policeman arresting me is the real criminal!)


A bit of conflation here - the crime talked about in this thread is driven by specific divisive actors with specific political aims - hence the label terrorists for some. The crime you are talking about is driven by the usual drug/gang/poverty factors whose participants are largely apolitical (if they can even name a senator from their state I would be impressed). I have been to a lot of political protests and such over the years, and have never seen that element attending.

The FBI and other LE assessments of right wing crime are not based on being 'the major issue of our times' - rather a significant threat to short and long term political stability of the country.
 
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ER757
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:33 am

casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Oh they are definitely seen as heroes by nutjobs already. Being investigated by the FBI is a badge of honor for such folks because the FBI is the enemy :sarcastic:
On the one hand, they're seen as martyrs. On the other, I don't think any of these armchair idolizers wants to follow in their footsteps and be thrown in prison.
When you really think about it, for all of the millions of people who thought the election was stolen, a tiny percentage of them actually showed up in DC to do anything about it. There were still too many, but it shows that most just have big mouths.



They are criminals and wannabee terrorists. They can be seen in prison as heroes by those too stupid to recognize that they are being protected from their uncivilized actions as well.

There would have probably been a lot more if it had occurred on a weekend instead of a Wednesday.

Small point of order - Congress isn't usually in session on weekends, and never to certify an election result, so the "rally" couldn't have happened on a weekend. Which is good because, yeah, more of these terrorists would probably have been there. Someone might have succeeded in taking out a congressperson or senator. Glad to hear a judge calling out Trump for being complicit. The person sentenced who says he felt betrayed by the lies? Well, if you were stupid enough to swallow them at the time, I have zero sympathy for your plight. Enjoy your stay at the graybar hotel dummy
 
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seb146
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:07 pm

So, apparently, there are emails using a private account

https://www.salon.com/2021/12/16/clinto ... oup-detat/
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-sho ... s-n1285937

Sounds familiar, doesn't it?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:50 pm

ER757 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
On the one hand, they're seen as martyrs. On the other, I don't think any of these armchair idolizers wants to follow in their footsteps and be thrown in prison.
When you really think about it, for all of the millions of people who thought the election was stolen, a tiny percentage of them actually showed up in DC to do anything about it. There were still too many, but it shows that most just have big mouths.



They are criminals and wannabee terrorists. They can be seen in prison as heroes by those too stupid to recognize that they are being protected from their uncivilized actions as well.

There would have probably been a lot more if it had occurred on a weekend instead of a Wednesday.

Small point of order - Congress isn't usually in session on weekends, and never to certify an election result, so the "rally" couldn't have happened on a weekend. Which is good because, yeah, more of these terrorists would probably have been there. Someone might have succeeded in taking out a congressperson or senator. Glad to hear a judge calling out Trump for being complicit. The person sentenced who says he felt betrayed by the lies? Well, if you were stupid enough to swallow them at the time, I have zero sympathy for your plight. Enjoy your stay at the graybar hotel dummy



Part of the issue with what is going on is that there are people that are long on anger and short on thought. A lot of Right Wing politics is based on stirring that specific pot. There are people that will quit their jobs should this occur next time. I am all for making sure that Trump, his staff, and the organizers of what happened on Jan 6 face consequences to make sure that people give at least a little more thought to their actions.

I am deeply disturbed that there are 147 members of Congress that flat out tried to go along with the plan that day, and they should face consequences as well.
 
victrola
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:16 pm

i can't believe that the lie that the election was stolen is now a core belief of your average Republican voter. It is even more disturbing that people who hold these beliefs will probably control Congress after 2022.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:50 pm

victrola wrote:
i can't believe that the lie that the election was stolen is now a core belief of your average Republican voter. It is even more disturbing that people who hold these beliefs will probably control Congress after 2022.



We are heading for Germany in the 20's and 30's were people make bad decisions for themselves because it makes them feel better about themselves, and they can blame "Others"
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:50 pm

Another new update on the ongoing legal saga. The Oath Keepers sought to challenge the electoral count as an official government proceeding in order to dodge the Felony Counts of obstruction. The judge decided that Electoral Certification is indeed an official act of Congress and the Felony charges will be permissible.

This charge is also the one that they are probably going to go after the Organizers with. Perhaps including Trump.


https://news.yahoo.com/federal-judge-ru ... 01190.html

Amit Mehta
Tue, December 21, 2021, 10:18 AM·2 min read
In this article:

Amit Mehta
United States District Judge
Rioters outside of the U.S. Capitol building
Rioters outside of the U.S. Capitol building


A federal judge denied a legal challenge against the heaviest charge that has been brought against Capitol riot defendants, upholding the felony count that federal prosecutors have relied on in the months since the attack.

U.S. District Judge Amit Mehta ruled Monday night that prosecutors will be allowed to move forward with the obstruction of an official proceeding charge against 17 defendants affiliated with the right-wing paramilitary group the Oath Keepers.

- ADVERTISEMENT -

In a 49-page opinion, Mehta, an Obama appointee, rejected the defendants' various arguments, including that the obstruction charge is unconstitutionally vague and that the prosecutors' application of it in the context of the riot imperils First Amendment protections for demonstrators.

"Their alleged conduct was no mere political protest or trespass. If proven, their conduct crossed the line to criminal conduct: they 'corruptly' conspired to, and did, 'obstruct, influence, and impede an official proceeding,' " Mehta wrote, quoting the statute's text.

Mehta is the third judge so far to uphold the obstruction of an official proceeding charge in challenges brought by Capitol riot defendants.

The count is among the most serious that have been brought by the Justice Department in response to the attack. If a defendant is found guilty of obstructing an official proceeding, it carries a maximum possible prison sentence of 20 years.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:10 pm

A member of the proud boys just pled guilty. to Obstructing Congress. There goes the false flag lie that has been spread by Trump and other Right wing sources.
https://www.npr.org/2021/12/22/10669448 ... ads-guilty

Matthew Greene, a self-proclaimed member of the far-right group known as the Proud Boys, has pleaded guilty in federal court in Washington, D.C., to two criminal charges: conspiracy and obstruction of an official proceeding, related to the Capitol siege on Jan. 6, 2021.

The plea deal pledges Greene's cooperation with the sprawling Jan. 6 criminal probe in exchange for a reduced prison sentence and the dismissal of several other charges that had been pending against him.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:29 pm

For those still awaiting sentencing or trial, it may be good to point out that they fell for the lies of Trump.

Georgia officials have confirmed that just 4 people were found guilty of casting a vote for the deceased.

But Trump included his claim in a notorious call in which he pushed the Georgia secretary of state, Republican Brad Raffensperger, to “find” enough votes to give him victory.

“Dead people,” Trump said. “So dead people voted, and I think the number is close to 5,000 people. And they went to obituaries. They went to all sorts of methods to come up with an accurate number, and a minimum is close to about 5,000 voters.”

He also claimed that “a tremendous number of dead people” voted in Michigan, adding: “I think it was … 18,000. Some unbelievably high number, much higher than yours, you were in the 4-5,000 category.”


Trump's unfounded lies were what lead up to the insurrection on Jan 6.
 
FGITD
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:15 am

casinterest wrote:
For those still awaiting sentencing or trial, it may be good to point out that they fell for the lies of Trump.

Georgia officials have confirmed that just 4 people were found guilty of casting a vote for the deceased.

But Trump included his claim in a notorious call in which he pushed the Georgia secretary of state, Republican Brad Raffensperger, to “find” enough votes to give him victory.

“Dead people,” Trump said. “So dead people voted, and I think the number is close to 5,000 people. And they went to obituaries. They went to all sorts of methods to come up with an accurate number, and a minimum is close to about 5,000 voters.”

He also claimed that “a tremendous number of dead people” voted in Michigan, adding: “I think it was … 18,000. Some unbelievably high number, much higher than yours, you were in the 4-5,000 category.”


Trump's unfounded lies were what lead up to the insurrection on Jan 6.


Fortunately we have Rand Paul, the voice of reason, who accuses democrats of cheating the election by…campaigning and encouraging voter turnout?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/rand-paul ... e-for-them
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:38 pm

FGITD wrote:
casinterest wrote:
For those still awaiting sentencing or trial, it may be good to point out that they fell for the lies of Trump.

Georgia officials have confirmed that just 4 people were found guilty of casting a vote for the deceased.

But Trump included his claim in a notorious call in which he pushed the Georgia secretary of state, Republican Brad Raffensperger, to “find” enough votes to give him victory.

“Dead people,” Trump said. “So dead people voted, and I think the number is close to 5,000 people. And they went to obituaries. They went to all sorts of methods to come up with an accurate number, and a minimum is close to about 5,000 voters.”

He also claimed that “a tremendous number of dead people” voted in Michigan, adding: “I think it was … 18,000. Some unbelievably high number, much higher than yours, you were in the 4-5,000 category.”


Trump's unfounded lies were what lead up to the insurrection on Jan 6.


Fortunately we have Rand Paul, the voice of reason, who accuses democrats of cheating the election by…campaigning and encouraging voter turnout?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/rand-paul ... e-for-them


Sometimes people with Fascist tendencies need to be reminded how democracy really works.



Meanwhile the cases will continue against the Proud Boys organizers of Unite the Right.

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/29/10687030 ... ys-leaders

U.S. District Judge Timothy Kelly on Tuesday rejected defense attorneys' arguments that the four men — Ethan Nordean, Joseph Biggs, Zachary Rehl and Charles Donohoe — are charged with conduct that is protected by the First Amendment right to free speech.

Kelly said the defendants had many nonviolent ways to express their opinions about the 2020 presidential election.

"Defendants are not, as they argue, charged with anything like burning flags, wearing black armbands, or participating in mere sit-ins or protests," Kelly wrote in his 43-page ruling. "Moreover, even if the charged conduct had some expressive aspect, it lost whatever First Amendment protection it may have had."

Nordean, Biggs, Rehl and Donohoe were indicted in March on charges including conspiracy and obstructing an official proceeding. All four of them remain jailed while they await a trial scheduled for May



Why do so many that want to ignore the rights of everyone else feel that the rules don't apply to them?
 
FGITD
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Thu Dec 30, 2021 5:39 am

casinterest wrote:


Sometimes people with Fascist tendencies need to be reminded how democracy really works.


Meanwhile you also have MGT who believes that democrat voters who move to Republican states shouldn’t immediately be given the right to vote.

https://www.newsweek.com/marjorie-taylo ... ng-1664155


This was while also conducting a poll via Twitter to survey if people believed red/blue states should “divorce”

I don’t care what party you’re from…if an elected official is saying things like “we should split the country up based on political beliefs” then it’s time to call her a traitor and give her the boot. As I recall, they take an oath to uphold and defend the US constitution. Where in that oath or document does it lay out the framework for limiting voting rights and splitting up the country?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:48 pm

FGITD wrote:
casinterest wrote:


Sometimes people with Fascist tendencies need to be reminded how democracy really works.


Meanwhile you also have MGT who believes that democrat voters who move to Republican states shouldn’t immediately be given the right to vote.

https://www.newsweek.com/marjorie-taylo ... ng-1664155


This was while also conducting a poll via Twitter to survey if people believed red/blue states should “divorce”

I don’t care what party you’re from…if an elected official is saying things like “we should split the country up based on political beliefs” then it’s time to call her a traitor and give her the boot. As I recall, they take an oath to uphold and defend the US constitution. Where in that oath or document does it lay out the framework for limiting voting rights and splitting up the country?


This is what Jan 6 was all about, and MGTcontinues to represent a very dangerous set of people that seek power through the guise of making people hate others for their own faults.

In a perfect world MJT would never get voted in, but we live in a world where some very dark money and very bad misinformation are combining to make people like MGT be seen as a leader to those that would be willing to commit Jan 6 crimes ore worse.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:38 pm

https://abcnews.go.com/US/doj-indicts-o ... racy/story

The Justice Department has unsealed a major indictment charging the leader of the Oath Keepers militia group along with multiple other members with seditious conspiracy related to their alleged coordination in advance of the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol.

The three indictments mark the Justice Department's first Jan. 6 use of the seditious conspiracy charge, which accuses Oath Keepers leader Stewart Rhodes and other members of the group of conspiring to "oppose by force the execution of the laws governing the transfer of presidential power" from outgoing President Donald Trump to incoming President Joe Biden



Seditious Conspiracy :

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384


It looks like the Jan 6 committee and DOJ and FBI are just getting started. Will be interesting to see the fallout of all of this, especially as the Oath Keepers and proud boys had some government contacts from what i understand.
The quote by Garland is very telling of what is coming.

FTA:
"We build investigations by laying a foundation," Garland said in the remarks. "We resolve more straightforward cases first because they provide the evidentiary foundation for more complex cases. Investigating the more overt crimes generates linkages to less overt ones. Overt actors and the evidence they provide can lead us to others who may also have been involved. And that evidence can serve as the foundation for further investigative leads and techniques."
 
pune
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:35 pm

The moment these people are convicted, all their cell phone records and whatnot can be used by FBI to find who talked to whom and what exactly happened. It will go both horizontal and vertical and hopefully there would be a day where Mr. Trump himself would be prosecuted.
 
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seb146
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:47 pm

pune wrote:
The moment these people are convicted, all their cell phone records and whatnot can be used by FBI to find who talked to whom and what exactly happened. It will go both horizontal and vertical and hopefully there would be a day where Mr. Trump himself would be prosecuted.


He won't. His party will not allow it. We already know right wing talking heads were texting him telling him to stop the attack but he did not.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/house-com ... y-for-help
https://apnews.com/article/sean-hannity ... 3584b53b60
 
pune
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:00 pm

seb146 wrote:
pune wrote:
The moment these people are convicted, all their cell phone records and whatnot can be used by FBI to find who talked to whom and what exactly happened. It will go both horizontal and vertical and hopefully there would be a day where Mr. Trump himself would be prosecuted.


He won't. His party will not allow it. We already know right wing talking heads were texting him telling him to stop the attack but he did not.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/house-com ... y-for-help
https://apnews.com/article/sean-hannity ... 3584b53b60


True, but it is the weight of the evidence that will eventually sink them. As more and more evidence comes to light. For e.g. they have subpoenaed big tech and people in Big Tech currently are sharing the same things in documentary proof of what is already known by the prosecutors or what Big Tech thinks the prosecutors know. This also does mean that Big Tech is being complicit with the right. There have been more than enough leaks over years to know that Facebook doesn't give a damn about people's civil rights and for them it's all about profits. The same is true of Twitter but to a slightly lesser extent. All the others are more or less the same. There are tools like fediverse who do try to be more transparent but they themselves get played by the same RW. But that probably is another discussion altogether :)
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:29 pm

pune wrote:
seb146 wrote:
pune wrote:
The moment these people are convicted, all their cell phone records and whatnot can be used by FBI to find who talked to whom and what exactly happened. It will go both horizontal and vertical and hopefully there would be a day where Mr. Trump himself would be prosecuted.


He won't. His party will not allow it. We already know right wing talking heads were texting him telling him to stop the attack but he did not.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/house-com ... y-for-help
https://apnews.com/article/sean-hannity ... 3584b53b60


True, but it is the weight of the evidence that will eventually sink them. As more and more evidence comes to light. For e.g. they have subpoenaed big tech and people in Big Tech currently are sharing the same things in documentary proof of what is already known by the prosecutors or what Big Tech thinks the prosecutors know. This also does mean that Big Tech is being complicit with the right. There have been more than enough leaks over years to know that Facebook doesn't give a damn about people's civil rights and for them it's all about profits. The same is true of Twitter but to a slightly lesser extent. All the others are more or less the same. There are tools like fediverse who do try to be more transparent but they themselves get played by the same RW. But that probably is another discussion altogether :)



Do not doubt the long game of Garland , who was denied a Supreme Court Appointment by the orchestrators of this insurrection. .
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:09 pm

Interesting tidbit from today.
Audio of Kevin McCarthy blaming Trump in the week following the attacks.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/14/politics ... index.html

"I say he has responsibility," McCarthy said on KERN, a local radio station in Bakersfield, California, on January 12 of last year. "He told me personally that he does have some responsibility. I think a lot of people do."
 
skyservice_330
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:19 pm

Interesting article from WaPo as to how the narratives that talking heads on the right have been pushing will be put to a test in the courts...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... gn=wp_main

The right’s conspiratorial defenses of Jan. 6 figures come under microscope with seditious-conspiracy charges

Key Excerpt:

All of these defendants are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. The point is that lots of people with an agenda and a narrative to build have jumped to all kinds of unwarranted conclusions about Jan. 6 figures’ status as political prisoners or part of a government conspiracy, based upon highly incomplete information and dubious inferences.

Some of those same figures now find themselves facing historic charges of conspiring against their government, meaning those preemptive and speculative defenses will now be seriously put to the test.
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:04 am

casinterest wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Oh they are definitely seen as heroes by nutjobs already. Being investigated by the FBI is a badge of honor for such folks because the FBI is the enemy :sarcastic:
On the one hand, they're seen as martyrs. On the other, I don't think any of these armchair idolizers wants to follow in their footsteps and be thrown in prison.
When you really think about it, for all of the millions of people who thought the election was stolen, a tiny percentage of them actually showed up in DC to do anything about it. There were still too many, but it shows that most just have big mouths.



They are criminals and wannabee terrorists. They can be seen in prison as heroes by those too stupid to recognize that they are being protected from their uncivilized actions as well.

There would have probably been a lot more if it had occurred on a weekend instead of a Wednesday.


They *are* all terrorists.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:46 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:
Interesting article from WaPo as to how the narratives that talking heads on the right have been pushing will be put to a test in the courts...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... gn=wp_main

The right’s conspiratorial defenses of Jan. 6 figures come under microscope with seditious-conspiracy charges

Key Excerpt:

All of these defendants are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. The point is that lots of people with an agenda and a narrative to build have jumped to all kinds of unwarranted conclusions about Jan. 6 figures’ status as political prisoners or part of a government conspiracy, based upon highly incomplete information and dubious inferences.

Some of those same figures now find themselves facing historic charges of conspiring against their government, meaning those preemptive and speculative defenses will now be seriously put to the test.


The lawyers will probably be pushing hard on getting charges for the organizers. The below AP article provides tons of firepower.


https://apnews.com/article/voter-fraud- ... 601db3328f

An Associated Press review of every potential case of voter fraud in the six battleground states disputed by former President Donald Trump has found fewer than 475 — a number that would have made no difference in the 2020 presidential election.




So fewer than 475 cases in each battleground state was found. That stands as further proof that the Unite the Right/Stop the steal organizers, Trump, Cogressional GOP, State GOP ,Right Wing Media, and a host of others all created lies about fraud.

ese are some of the culprits in the “massive election fraud” Trump falsely says deprived him of a second term:

A Wisconsin man who mistakenly thought he could vote while on parole.

A woman in Arizona suspected of sending in a ballot for her dead mother.

A Pennsylvania man who went twice to the polls, voting once on his own behalf and once for his son.

The cases were isolated. There was no widespread, coordinated deceit.

The cases also underscore that suspected fraud is both generally detected and exceptionally rare.

“Voter fraud is virtually non-existent,” said George Christenson, election clerk for Milwaukee County in Wisconsin, where five people statewide have been charged with fraud out of nearly 3.3 million ballots cast for president. “I would have to venture a guess that’s about the same odds as getting hit by lightning.”
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:07 am

skyservice_330 wrote:
A lot of media coverage on the different elements of the legal ramifications for those that were involved in the violent 'Unite the Right' gathering and the Jan 6 insurrection -

Jan. 6 rioter in horned fur hat sentenced to 41 months
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/jan-6-riot ... -1.5670082

Most heavily armed January 6 rioter pleads guilty to bringing five firearms and 11 Molotov cocktails to Capitol
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 57164.html

US Capitol rioter who assaulted police officer gets 41 months in prison
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/10/politics ... index.html

Unite the Right organizer appeared to instruct followers to mislead law enforcement, court evidence suggests
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va ... -cantwell/

“I Want Them To Start Something”: White Supremacists Allegedly Strategized How To Provoke Counterprotesters Ahead Of The “Unite The Right” Rally
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ch ... r-cantwell

Two “Unite The Right” Defendants Asked The Judge To Dismiss Their Case. It Backfired Spectacularly.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ch ... rd-spencer

Some initial thoughts -

- The Jan 6 storm of the capitol represents a massive security failure - those involved in storming the building, hunting for politicians they disagreed with, and brutalizing police officers must be prosecuted. They attempted to interfere with the democratic process, and there should be a top to bottom investigation of how it transpired, who knew what, and when they knew it. If elected officials or party operatives were aware or somehow complicit, that is inexcusable. If someone is showing up with Molotov cocktails and spears to a supposedly peaceful protest, then planned nefarious intent cannot be dismissed.

- I worry about the martyrdom effect this could have on susceptible minds - instead of these perpetrators of violence being seen as such, they will be seen as martyrs - to be celebrated, glorified - and the motivation this could have on others to undertake violence in their name(s) is concerning.

As more charges are laid, pleas and admissions are made, or legal resolutions are pursued this thread can serve as an inventory for tracking and discussing.


You are right to call it a security failure. That’s what it was, and it was glaring. Almost 20 years after 9/11, there was a massive federal staff paid (and paid well) to keep our Capitol safe. They had drills, exercises and no doubt consumed endless ammunition at the gun range. Obviously, they nearly totally failed when the actual threat came.

There are always a few hundred goons (in every country) that would like to take over. Even in Canada, I suspect. This is why we have police.

The legal ramifications are nothing, in my view. The law was already clear about this. You can say whatever you want, and you can demonstrate on the National Mall. But you cannot storm federal buildings, especially that one, at that time.

In my view, it only happened because we have so few actual threats that the security directors treated their jobs as pure patronage jobs with no need to perform actual work. They were fat, lazy walruses collecting a paycheck for a threat they believed would never come.
 
pune
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:18 am

LCDFlight wrote:
skyservice_330 wrote:
A lot of media coverage on the different elements of the legal ramifications for those that were involved in the violent 'Unite the Right' gathering and the Jan 6 insurrection -

Jan. 6 rioter in horned fur hat sentenced to 41 months
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/jan-6-riot ... -1.5670082

Most heavily armed January 6 rioter pleads guilty to bringing five firearms and 11 Molotov cocktails to Capitol
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 57164.html

US Capitol rioter who assaulted police officer gets 41 months in prison
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/10/politics ... index.html

Unite the Right organizer appeared to instruct followers to mislead law enforcement, court evidence suggests
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va ... -cantwell/

“I Want Them To Start Something”: White Supremacists Allegedly Strategized How To Provoke Counterprotesters Ahead Of The “Unite The Right” Rally
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ch ... r-cantwell

Two “Unite The Right” Defendants Asked The Judge To Dismiss Their Case. It Backfired Spectacularly.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ch ... rd-spencer

Some initial thoughts -

- The Jan 6 storm of the capitol represents a massive security failure - those involved in storming the building, hunting for politicians they disagreed with, and brutalizing police officers must be prosecuted. They attempted to interfere with the democratic process, and there should be a top to bottom investigation of how it transpired, who knew what, and when they knew it. If elected officials or party operatives were aware or somehow complicit, that is inexcusable. If someone is showing up with Molotov cocktails and spears to a supposedly peaceful protest, then planned nefarious intent cannot be dismissed.

- I worry about the martyrdom effect this could have on susceptible minds - instead of these perpetrators of violence being seen as such, they will be seen as martyrs - to be celebrated, glorified - and the motivation this could have on others to undertake violence in their name(s) is concerning.

As more charges are laid, pleas and admissions are made, or legal resolutions are pursued this thread can serve as an inventory for tracking and discussing.


You are right to call it a security failure. That’s what it was, and it was glaring. Almost 20 years after 9/11, there was a massive federal staff paid (and paid well) to keep our Capitol safe. They had drills, exercises and no doubt consumed endless ammunition at the gun range. Obviously, they nearly totally failed when the actual threat came.

There are always a few hundred goons (in every country) that would like to take over. Even in Canada, I suspect. This is why we have police.

The legal ramifications are nothing, in my view. The law was already clear about this. You can say whatever you want, and you can demonstrate on the National Mall. But you cannot storm federal buildings, especially that one, at that time.

In my view, it only happened because we have so few actual threats that the security directors treated their jobs as pure patronage jobs with no need to perform actual work. They were fat, lazy walruses collecting a paycheck for a threat they believed would never come.


Partly true, but partly also they were waiting for orders from the president. Otherwise, the same people could have been in courts for showing extra 'zeal' or some similar grounds. What is also not known is did FBI had intelligence about the riots that they passed to Mr.Trump and he did nothng. This is also possible. He probably played both sides.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:26 am

LCDFlight wrote:
In my view, it only happened because we have so few actual threats that the security directors treated their jobs as pure patronage jobs with no need to perform actual work. They were fat, lazy walruses collecting a paycheck for a threat they believed would never come.
That’s like saying a rape only happened because the raped woman was wearing a short skirt.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:24 pm

pune wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
skyservice_330 wrote:
A lot of media coverage on the different elements of the legal ramifications for those that were involved in the violent 'Unite the Right' gathering and the Jan 6 insurrection -

Jan. 6 rioter in horned fur hat sentenced to 41 months
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/jan-6-riot ... -1.5670082

Most heavily armed January 6 rioter pleads guilty to bringing five firearms and 11 Molotov cocktails to Capitol
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 57164.html

US Capitol rioter who assaulted police officer gets 41 months in prison
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/10/politics ... index.html

Unite the Right organizer appeared to instruct followers to mislead law enforcement, court evidence suggests
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va ... -cantwell/

“I Want Them To Start Something”: White Supremacists Allegedly Strategized How To Provoke Counterprotesters Ahead Of The “Unite The Right” Rally
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ch ... r-cantwell

Two “Unite The Right” Defendants Asked The Judge To Dismiss Their Case. It Backfired Spectacularly.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ch ... rd-spencer

Some initial thoughts -

- The Jan 6 storm of the capitol represents a massive security failure - those involved in storming the building, hunting for politicians they disagreed with, and brutalizing police officers must be prosecuted. They attempted to interfere with the democratic process, and there should be a top to bottom investigation of how it transpired, who knew what, and when they knew it. If elected officials or party operatives were aware or somehow complicit, that is inexcusable. If someone is showing up with Molotov cocktails and spears to a supposedly peaceful protest, then planned nefarious intent cannot be dismissed.

- I worry about the martyrdom effect this could have on susceptible minds - instead of these perpetrators of violence being seen as such, they will be seen as martyrs - to be celebrated, glorified - and the motivation this could have on others to undertake violence in their name(s) is concerning.

As more charges are laid, pleas and admissions are made, or legal resolutions are pursued this thread can serve as an inventory for tracking and discussing.


You are right to call it a security failure. That’s what it was, and it was glaring. Almost 20 years after 9/11, there was a massive federal staff paid (and paid well) to keep our Capitol safe. They had drills, exercises and no doubt consumed endless ammunition at the gun range. Obviously, they nearly totally failed when the actual threat came.

There are always a few hundred goons (in every country) that would like to take over. Even in Canada, I suspect. This is why we have police.

The legal ramifications are nothing, in my view. The law was already clear about this. You can say whatever you want, and you can demonstrate on the National Mall. But you cannot storm federal buildings, especially that one, at that time.

In my view, it only happened because we have so few actual threats that the security directors treated their jobs as pure patronage jobs with no need to perform actual work. They were fat, lazy walruses collecting a paycheck for a threat they believed would never come.


Partly true, but partly also they were waiting for orders from the president. Otherwise, the same people could have been in courts for showing extra 'zeal' or some similar grounds. What is also not known is did FBI had intelligence about the riots that they passed to Mr.Trump and he did nothng. This is also possible. He probably played both sides.


The Capitol police and its directors are not under the command of the president. They are employees of the legislative branch. But, this was a failure of multiple agencies, as you note, including the executive branch (Trump’s command). Your point about FBI is correct.

This wasn’t 9/11 though. 3,000 people were murdered on 9/11, and zero during the Capitol riot (although there was one justified shooting and several medical deaths).

petertenthije wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
In my view, it only happened because we have so few actual threats that the security directors treated their jobs as pure patronage jobs with no need to perform actual work. They were fat, lazy walruses collecting a paycheck for a threat they believed would never come.
That’s like saying a rape only happened because the raped woman was wearing a short skirt.


Yes, it is. But the woman in this case is 2,000 armed federal police officers. And the dress is our US Capitol, which it is their job to protect. It’s like leaving a Ferrari running with the keys in it, and the door open. Not a matter of if, but when somebody tries something. Generally, police know this.
 
pune
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:16 pm

It should be amended to police should generally know this. I think there is more than enough blame to go around apart from the people who planned, abetted and carried out the insurrection. They definitely need to be punished. I think Big Tech also needs to be taken through cleaners. They seem to know an awful lot of the whole planning and scheme of things so they are complicit no matter what they or their lawyers say. I'm saying this as the news of drip-drip information provided by them that only confirms what the investigators know or can know.

As a non-American it doesn't affect me directly, although can see the same tactics being applied here. And here things are much more on a slippery slope.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:38 pm

pune wrote:
It should be amended to police should generally know this. I think there is more than enough blame to go around apart from the people who planned, abetted and carried out the insurrection. They definitely need to be punished. I think Big Tech also needs to be taken through cleaners. They seem to know an awful lot of the whole planning and scheme of things so they are complicit no matter what they or their lawyers say. I'm saying this as the news of drip-drip information provided by them that only confirms what the investigators know or can know.

As a non-American it doesn't affect me directly, although can see the same tactics being applied here. And here things are much more on a slippery slope.



The push against "Big Tech" is the same as the one against "Mainstream Media" It is a political ploy to drive supporters into the Right wing echo chamber.
What big tech does is allow everyone to communicate. This isn't good for Big Tech as the conspiracy theorists usually get their items removed in no time.
I watch Facebook pull down dozens of groups that known acquaintances tried to pull everyone into that were full of the right wing nutjobs right after it became clear that Biden won.

The "Big Tech" pushback it just setting the stage for the new Trump Pravda network ,and Mike Lindell networks that will keep unaware people locked into a circular echo wing that amplifies fake information. It will become more like China's and Russia's own media networks that feed the party line.


Facebook , Twitter, instagram, and even Anet are the only real hope against a slide into rampant misinformation sites.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:37 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
You are right to call it a security failure. That’s what it was, and it was glaring. Almost 20 years after 9/11, there was a massive federal staff paid (and paid well) to keep our Capitol safe. They had drills, exercises and no doubt consumed endless ammunition at the gun range. Obviously, they nearly totally failed when the actual threat came.

There are always a few hundred goons (in every country) that would like to take over. Even in Canada, I suspect. This is why we have police.

The legal ramifications are nothing, in my view. The law was already clear about this. You can say whatever you want, and you can demonstrate on the National Mall. But you cannot storm federal buildings, especially that one, at that time.

In my view, it only happened because we have so few actual threats that the security directors treated their jobs as pure patronage jobs with no need to perform actual work. They were fat, lazy walruses collecting a paycheck for a threat they believed would never come.

While I in some way very much agree that the Capitol Police should have just let loose and fired upon the crowd, I also and very glad they did not and truly NEVER want to see my own nation fire upon it's own citizens.

And everyone should understand and agree with that.

Even the one death, while justified, was not a good or desired thing.

For the full force of the Capitol Police to open fire and fully resist the crowd, while the people they are otherwise there to protect are safely evacuated and not under direct threat, it would be the worst of all possible things to happen.

And the few times US federal authorities have opened fire is/was terrible for the nation.

In this case, not going full "stop" and using leathal force to stop the intrusion was absolutely the right thing to do. Simply because the legislators were in fact safely secured then evacuated and not at immediate risk.

While I in some ways wanted the people with bad intent just killed, stopped, that day. the morons and people with them would have been too and we are a better nation than that. Or at least we need to be a better nation than that.


I don't want to be Kazakhstan. Or Russia, Or China. Or North Korea. Ever.

Tugg
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:04 pm

Tugger wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
You are right to call it a security failure. That’s what it was, and it was glaring. Almost 20 years after 9/11, there was a massive federal staff paid (and paid well) to keep our Capitol safe. They had drills, exercises and no doubt consumed endless ammunition at the gun range. Obviously, they nearly totally failed when the actual threat came.

There are always a few hundred goons (in every country) that would like to take over. Even in Canada, I suspect. This is why we have police.

The legal ramifications are nothing, in my view. The law was already clear about this. You can say whatever you want, and you can demonstrate on the National Mall. But you cannot storm federal buildings, especially that one, at that time.

In my view, it only happened because we have so few actual threats that the security directors treated their jobs as pure patronage jobs with no need to perform actual work. They were fat, lazy walruses collecting a paycheck for a threat they believed would never come.

While I in some way very much agree that the Capitol Police should have just let loose and fired upon the crowd, I also and very glad they did not and truly NEVER want to see my own nation fire upon it's own citizens.

And everyone should understand and agree with that.

Even the one death, while justified, was not a good or desired thing.

For the full force of the Capitol Police to open fire and fully resist the crowd, while the people they are otherwise there to protect are safely evacuated and not under direct threat, it would be the worst of all possible things to happen.

And the few times US federal authorities have opened fire is/was terrible for the nation.

In this case, not going full "stop" and using leathal force to stop the intrusion was absolutely the right thing to do. Simply because the legislators were in fact safely secured then evacuated and not at immediate risk.

While I in some ways wanted the people with bad intent just killed, stopped, that day. the morons and people with them would have been too and we are a better nation than that. Or at least we need to be a better nation than that.


I don't want to be Kazakhstan. Or Russia, Or China. Or North Korea. Ever.

Tugg


They are thinking hard about that. You are making a very, very good point. You are totally right that firing on them would incur a cost probably worse than what happened.

But in the end, I disagree with the comparison you and other people would make. The US has an ELECTED government. If the US had a dictator government, I would have no problem with citizens going in the building and taking control, killing some people if necessary, to secure a democracy. It isn’t valid to compare policework in a democracy to authoritarian goons. They wear the same uniform, but they are not the same.
 
pune
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:25 am

casinterest wrote:
pune wrote:
It should be amended to police should generally know this. I think there is more than enough blame to go around apart from the people who planned, abetted and carried out the insurrection. They definitely need to be punished. I think Big Tech also needs to be taken through cleaners. They seem to know an awful lot of the whole planning and scheme of things so they are complicit no matter what they or their lawyers say. I'm saying this as the news of drip-drip information provided by them that only confirms what the investigators know or can know.

As a non-American it doesn't affect me directly, although can see the same tactics being applied here. And here things are much more on a slippery slope.



The push against "Big Tech" is the same as the one against "Mainstream Media" It is a political ploy to drive supporters into the Right wing echo chamber.
What big tech does is allow everyone to communicate. This isn't good for Big Tech as the conspiracy theorists usually get their items removed in no time.
I watch Facebook pull-down dozens of groups that known acquaintances tried to pull everyone into that were full of the right wing nutjobs right after it became clear that Biden won.

The "Big Tech" pushback it just setting the stage for the new Trump Pravda network, and Mike Lindell networks that will keep unaware people locked into a circular echo wing that amplifies fake information. It will become more like China's and Russia's own media networks that feed the party line.


Facebook , Twitter, instagram, and even Anet are the only real hope against a slide into rampant misinformation sites.


How do you see this then and there is more than enough people who had been sharing about FB's own shortcomings over the years and they have done nothing about it. They don't want to spend money on it as controversy is lucrative. This is the same/similar as Twitter.

https://www.npr.org/2021/10/25/10489187 ... nformation

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... hang-guide

And I have shared just a couple, I know of at least half a dozen such people. And in all FB just reacted, didn't take action on its own. I know of my own country, they have done the most minimalist stuff and have been recorded saying they won't shut RW groups or whatnot down as they are bad for business. All the people who look after India are close and part of the BJP. Many of them are relatives of BJP leaders. In other countries, you would have something called 'conflict of interest' and while there is that term in the law, it is seldomly applied here. Hell, we don't even believe in international law since 2014 (since BJP took over) and there is n number of incidents and cases that show/potray it.
 
pune
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:15 am

This should give you some idea of how the Indian RW ecosystem is, as much toxic as the U.S. sad to report or probably much worse. And almost all of it is based on various falsehoods of religion and purism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KkaN4wE810

You also need to remember the disinformation campaigns run on Facebook and amplified both about democrats and Hillary Clinton and Brexit and things that were patently false were allowed to run a free reign. And that is all known and part of public record.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 15202
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:29 pm

pune wrote:
casinterest wrote:
pune wrote:
It should be amended to police should generally know this. I think there is more than enough blame to go around apart from the people who planned, abetted and carried out the insurrection. They definitely need to be punished. I think Big Tech also needs to be taken through cleaners. They seem to know an awful lot of the whole planning and scheme of things so they are complicit no matter what they or their lawyers say. I'm saying this as the news of drip-drip information provided by them that only confirms what the investigators know or can know.

As a non-American it doesn't affect me directly, although can see the same tactics being applied here. And here things are much more on a slippery slope.



The push against "Big Tech" is the same as the one against "Mainstream Media" It is a political ploy to drive supporters into the Right wing echo chamber.
What big tech does is allow everyone to communicate. This isn't good for Big Tech as the conspiracy theorists usually get their items removed in no time.
I watch Facebook pull-down dozens of groups that known acquaintances tried to pull everyone into that were full of the right wing nutjobs right after it became clear that Biden won.

The "Big Tech" pushback it just setting the stage for the new Trump Pravda network, and Mike Lindell networks that will keep unaware people locked into a circular echo wing that amplifies fake information. It will become more like China's and Russia's own media networks that feed the party line.


Facebook , Twitter, instagram, and even Anet are the only real hope against a slide into rampant misinformation sites.


How do you see this then and there is more than enough people who had been sharing about FB's own shortcomings over the years and they have done nothing about it. They don't want to spend money on it as controversy is lucrative. This is the same/similar as Twitter.

https://www.npr.org/2021/10/25/10489187 ... nformation

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... hang-guide

And I have shared just a couple, I know of at least half a dozen such people. And in all FB just reacted, didn't take action on its own. I know of my own country, they have done the most minimalist stuff and have been recorded saying they won't shut RW groups or whatnot down as they are bad for business. All the people who look after India are close and part of the BJP. Many of them are relatives of BJP leaders. In other countries, you would have something called 'conflict of interest' and while there is that term in the law, it is seldomly applied here. Hell, we don't even believe in international law since 2014 (since BJP took over) and there is n number of incidents and cases that show/potray it.


Facebook in the US takes my preferences into account. I can't speak for India. Here in the US, after reporting multiple pieces of misinformation, they tend to not be sent to me anymore.
FB has it's issues, and misinformation is amongst them, but the user's do have a hand in fixing it. On the downside facebook should give more credence and vetting to better moderators.
 
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seb146
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Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:54 pm

The founder of the right wing group Oath Keepers, along with other Oath Keepers, have been charged with seditious conspiracy related to the 1/6 domestic terror attack

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/leader-o ... piracy-and
 
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casinterest
Posts: 15202
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:02 pm

Giuliani has been subpoenaed, along with Sydney Powell. This should be interesting as they were also a large part of the lies that were sent to court cases. If Trump's lawyers , that are left, are smart enough, they would try to lay the blame squarely on these two for all the misinformation.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/18/politics ... index.html

In addition to Giuliani, the committee issued subpoenas to two other attorneys who pushed various election fraud conspiracies on Trump's behalf: Jenna Ellis and Sidney Powell.
Former Trump campaign adviser Boris Epshteyn, who was among those working with Giuliani at the post-election Willard Hotel "command center," was also subpoenaed Tuesday.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 15202
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:37 pm

https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... minder-hes

Interesting event over the weekend where Trump floated to pardon all Jan 6 rioters.

Trump at a rally in Texas on Saturday said if he ran for reelection and won in 2024, he would treat those convicted of crimes connected to the Jan. 6, 2021, Capitol riots "fairly," adding "if it requires pardons, we will give them pardons, because they are being treated so unfairly."


==============================
Trump's remarks have drawn backlash from members of his own party. Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) and New Hampshire Gov. Chris Sununu (R) both called Trump's promise of pardons inappropriate, and his comments on Sunday night drew condemnation from others.



Will the GOP finally go after Trump?

The White House officially went after him

"He defended the actions of his supporters, who stormed the Capitol and brutally attacked the law enforcement officers protecting it. I think it’s important to shout that out and call that out," Psaki said at a press briefing when asked about Trump's comments and potential reforms to the Electoral Count Act.

"He even attacked his own vice president for not, in his words, having overturned the election," Psaki continued. "And it’s just a reminder of how unfit he is for office. And it’s telling that even some of his closest allies have rejected those remarks as inappropriate in the days since."
 
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seb146
Posts: 24469
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Unite the Right / Jan 6 - Legal Impacts - A thread

Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:23 pm

Using the military to seize voting machines, too

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/23/10752192 ... ng-machine
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasre ... cb3e8fce2b

Republicans wanted fake electors, too

https://news.yahoo.com/u-returns-40-mig ... 17756.html
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/28/politics ... index.html

All because their guy lost. Too bad the media is not covering this more...

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