Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Aaron747 wrote:On the one hand, they're seen as martyrs. On the other, I don't think any of these armchair idolizers wants to follow in their footsteps and be thrown in prison.Oh they are definitely seen as heroes by nutjobs already. Being investigated by the FBI is a badge of honor for such folks because the FBI is the enemy
johns624 wrote:Aaron747 wrote:On the one hand, they're seen as martyrs. On the other, I don't think any of these armchair idolizers wants to follow in their footsteps and be thrown in prison.Oh they are definitely seen as heroes by nutjobs already. Being investigated by the FBI is a badge of honor for such folks because the FBI is the enemy
When you really think about it, for all of the millions of people who thought the election was stolen, a tiny percentage of them actually showed up in DC to do anything about it. There were still too many, but it shows that most just have big mouths.
casinterest wrote:True, but that also kinda makes the point. Their job is more important than any political beliefs. Just like all the antivaxxers with "strong" principles, until they'd lose their job, and then 99% of them got the vaccine.
There would have probably been a lot more if it had occurred on a weekend instead of a Wednesday.
johns624 wrote:casinterest wrote:True, but that also kinda makes the point. Their job is more important than any political beliefs. Just like all the antivaxxers with "strong" principles, until they'd lose their job, and then 99% of them got the vaccine.
There would have probably been a lot more if it had occurred on a weekend instead of a Wednesday.
“He didn’t purposely come to Washington, D.C., to storm the Capitol,” said Mehta. “The fact remains that he and others were called to Washington, D.C., by an elected official, prompted to walk to the Capitol by an elected official.”
“People like Mr. Lolos were told lies, told falsehoods, told our election was stolen when it clearly was not,” Mehta continued, adding that the defendants were paying for conduct that was largely enabled by Trump and his allies. “We’re here today deciding whether Mr. Lolos should spend 30 days in jail when those who created the conditions that led to Mr. Lolos’ conduct, led to the events of Jan. 6 [haven’t been] held to account for their actions and their word.”
“In a sense, Mr. Lolos, I think you were a pawn,” Mehta continued. “You were a pawn in a game directed and played by people who should know better. I think that mitigates your conduct.”
casinterest wrote:We have some stunning new developments in the Legal fights.
Mark Meadows, who was going to comply, but then didn't is now being charged with Contempt.
However, prior to having a "Change" of heart. Meadows supplied over 9000 documents to Congress.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/13/us/p ... tempt.html
"The committee voted 9 to 0 on Monday evening to recommend that Mr. Meadows be charged with criminal contempt of Congress for defying its subpoena. Before the vote, Representative Liz Cheney, one of the leaders of the panel, added to the evidence implicating Mr. Meadows in events of Jan. 6. She read aloud text messages sent to him by the president’s son Donald Trump Jr. and by the Fox News hosts Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham and Brian Kilmeade urging that Mr. Trump speak out amid the mob violence."
The texts highlight that everyone was well aware of what was going on and why. This was no peaceful protest. It was a riot and attempt at overturning the will of the people.
Mark Meadows is probably on Trump's "do not call" list now, and these documents will help to paint a clearer picture of who, why and how these protests were organized.
I have to guess that we still haven't seen some of the really good stuff leading into Jan 6.
What is also concerning is the two -face stance of many of the Fox News infotainment talking heads as they are trying to stop it, but then go on their shows and claim it was all nothing. Remind me again how they have millions watching their lies?
Aaron747 wrote:casinterest wrote:We have some stunning new developments in the Legal fights.
Mark Meadows, who was going to comply, but then didn't is now being charged with Contempt.
However, prior to having a "Change" of heart. Meadows supplied over 9000 documents to Congress.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/13/us/p ... tempt.html
"The committee voted 9 to 0 on Monday evening to recommend that Mr. Meadows be charged with criminal contempt of Congress for defying its subpoena. Before the vote, Representative Liz Cheney, one of the leaders of the panel, added to the evidence implicating Mr. Meadows in events of Jan. 6. She read aloud text messages sent to him by the president’s son Donald Trump Jr. and by the Fox News hosts Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham and Brian Kilmeade urging that Mr. Trump speak out amid the mob violence."
The texts highlight that everyone was well aware of what was going on and why. This was no peaceful protest. It was a riot and attempt at overturning the will of the people.
Mark Meadows is probably on Trump's "do not call" list now, and these documents will help to paint a clearer picture of who, why and how these protests were organized.
I have to guess that we still haven't seen some of the really good stuff leading into Jan 6.
What is also concerning is the two -face stance of many of the Fox News infotainment talking heads as they are trying to stop it, but then go on their shows and claim it was all nothing. Remind me again how they have millions watching their lies?
The texts are incredible - now everyone knows it’s 100% necessary to see the ones that were not released to Congress, such as planning communications between rioters and WH staff/members of Congress.
casinterest wrote:We have some stunning new developments in the Legal fights.
Mark Meadows, who was going to comply, but then didn't is now being charged with Contempt.
However, prior to having a "Change" of heart. Meadows supplied over 9000 documents to Congress.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/13/us/p ... tempt.html
"The committee voted 9 to 0 on Monday evening to recommend that Mr. Meadows be charged with criminal contempt of Congress for defying its subpoena. Before the vote, Representative Liz Cheney, one of the leaders of the panel, added to the evidence implicating Mr. Meadows in events of Jan. 6. She read aloud text messages sent to him by the president’s son Donald Trump Jr. and by the Fox News hosts Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham and Brian Kilmeade urging that Mr. Trump speak out amid the mob violence."
The texts highlight that everyone was well aware of what was going on and why. This was no peaceful protest. It was a riot and attempt at overturning the will of the people.
Mark Meadows is probably on Trump's "do not call" list now, and these documents will help to paint a clearer picture of who, why and how these protests were organized.
I have to guess that we still haven't seen some of the really good stuff leading into Jan 6.
What is also concerning is the two -face stance of many of the Fox News infotainment talking heads as they are trying to stop it, but then go on their shows and claim it was all nothing. Remind me again how they have millions watching their lies?
casinterest wrote:johns624 wrote:Aaron747 wrote:On the one hand, they're seen as martyrs. On the other, I don't think any of these armchair idolizers wants to follow in their footsteps and be thrown in prison.Oh they are definitely seen as heroes by nutjobs already. Being investigated by the FBI is a badge of honor for such folks because the FBI is the enemy
When you really think about it, for all of the millions of people who thought the election was stolen, a tiny percentage of them actually showed up in DC to do anything about it. There were still too many, but it shows that most just have big mouths.
They are criminals and wannabee terrorists. They can be seen in prison as heroes by those too stupid to recognize that they are being protected from their uncivilized actions as well.
There would have probably been a lot more if it had occurred on a weekend instead of a Wednesday.
LCDFlight wrote:casinterest wrote:johns624 wrote:On the one hand, they're seen as martyrs. On the other, I don't think any of these armchair idolizers wants to follow in their footsteps and be thrown in prison.
When you really think about it, for all of the millions of people who thought the election was stolen, a tiny percentage of them actually showed up in DC to do anything about it. There were still too many, but it shows that most just have big mouths.
They are criminals and wannabee terrorists. They can be seen in prison as heroes by those too stupid to recognize that they are being protected from their uncivilized actions as well.
There would have probably been a lot more if it had occurred on a weekend instead of a Wednesday.
Without disagreeing at all that the Jan 6 mob in the capitol were criminals and terrorists, but in a typical US city, the right wing has nothing to do with the hundreds of shootings (per major city) and the burning and looting going on.
I understand right wing criminality is a major issue,
But it’s not even 1% of the crime and terror issue where I have been living. The 99% of big city crime affecting urban people like me is something other than right wing. When people say right wing criminality is the major issue of our times, there is quite some projection involved in that (I’m not the criminal, the policeman arresting me is the real criminal!)
casinterest wrote:johns624 wrote:Aaron747 wrote:On the one hand, they're seen as martyrs. On the other, I don't think any of these armchair idolizers wants to follow in their footsteps and be thrown in prison.Oh they are definitely seen as heroes by nutjobs already. Being investigated by the FBI is a badge of honor for such folks because the FBI is the enemy
When you really think about it, for all of the millions of people who thought the election was stolen, a tiny percentage of them actually showed up in DC to do anything about it. There were still too many, but it shows that most just have big mouths.
They are criminals and wannabee terrorists. They can be seen in prison as heroes by those too stupid to recognize that they are being protected from their uncivilized actions as well.
There would have probably been a lot more if it had occurred on a weekend instead of a Wednesday.
ER757 wrote:casinterest wrote:johns624 wrote:On the one hand, they're seen as martyrs. On the other, I don't think any of these armchair idolizers wants to follow in their footsteps and be thrown in prison.
When you really think about it, for all of the millions of people who thought the election was stolen, a tiny percentage of them actually showed up in DC to do anything about it. There were still too many, but it shows that most just have big mouths.
They are criminals and wannabee terrorists. They can be seen in prison as heroes by those too stupid to recognize that they are being protected from their uncivilized actions as well.
There would have probably been a lot more if it had occurred on a weekend instead of a Wednesday.
Small point of order - Congress isn't usually in session on weekends, and never to certify an election result, so the "rally" couldn't have happened on a weekend. Which is good because, yeah, more of these terrorists would probably have been there. Someone might have succeeded in taking out a congressperson or senator. Glad to hear a judge calling out Trump for being complicit. The person sentenced who says he felt betrayed by the lies? Well, if you were stupid enough to swallow them at the time, I have zero sympathy for your plight. Enjoy your stay at the graybar hotel dummy
victrola wrote:i can't believe that the lie that the election was stolen is now a core belief of your average Republican voter. It is even more disturbing that people who hold these beliefs will probably control Congress after 2022.
Amit Mehta
Tue, December 21, 2021, 10:18 AM·2 min read
In this article:
Amit Mehta
United States District Judge
Rioters outside of the U.S. Capitol building
Rioters outside of the U.S. Capitol building
A federal judge denied a legal challenge against the heaviest charge that has been brought against Capitol riot defendants, upholding the felony count that federal prosecutors have relied on in the months since the attack.
U.S. District Judge Amit Mehta ruled Monday night that prosecutors will be allowed to move forward with the obstruction of an official proceeding charge against 17 defendants affiliated with the right-wing paramilitary group the Oath Keepers.
- ADVERTISEMENT -
In a 49-page opinion, Mehta, an Obama appointee, rejected the defendants' various arguments, including that the obstruction charge is unconstitutionally vague and that the prosecutors' application of it in the context of the riot imperils First Amendment protections for demonstrators.
"Their alleged conduct was no mere political protest or trespass. If proven, their conduct crossed the line to criminal conduct: they 'corruptly' conspired to, and did, 'obstruct, influence, and impede an official proceeding,' " Mehta wrote, quoting the statute's text.
Mehta is the third judge so far to uphold the obstruction of an official proceeding charge in challenges brought by Capitol riot defendants.
The count is among the most serious that have been brought by the Justice Department in response to the attack. If a defendant is found guilty of obstructing an official proceeding, it carries a maximum possible prison sentence of 20 years.
Matthew Greene, a self-proclaimed member of the far-right group known as the Proud Boys, has pleaded guilty in federal court in Washington, D.C., to two criminal charges: conspiracy and obstruction of an official proceeding, related to the Capitol siege on Jan. 6, 2021.
The plea deal pledges Greene's cooperation with the sprawling Jan. 6 criminal probe in exchange for a reduced prison sentence and the dismissal of several other charges that had been pending against him.
But Trump included his claim in a notorious call in which he pushed the Georgia secretary of state, Republican Brad Raffensperger, to “find” enough votes to give him victory.
“Dead people,” Trump said. “So dead people voted, and I think the number is close to 5,000 people. And they went to obituaries. They went to all sorts of methods to come up with an accurate number, and a minimum is close to about 5,000 voters.”
He also claimed that “a tremendous number of dead people” voted in Michigan, adding: “I think it was … 18,000. Some unbelievably high number, much higher than yours, you were in the 4-5,000 category.”
casinterest wrote:For those still awaiting sentencing or trial, it may be good to point out that they fell for the lies of Trump.
Georgia officials have confirmed that just 4 people were found guilty of casting a vote for the deceased.But Trump included his claim in a notorious call in which he pushed the Georgia secretary of state, Republican Brad Raffensperger, to “find” enough votes to give him victory.
“Dead people,” Trump said. “So dead people voted, and I think the number is close to 5,000 people. And they went to obituaries. They went to all sorts of methods to come up with an accurate number, and a minimum is close to about 5,000 voters.”
He also claimed that “a tremendous number of dead people” voted in Michigan, adding: “I think it was … 18,000. Some unbelievably high number, much higher than yours, you were in the 4-5,000 category.”
Trump's unfounded lies were what lead up to the insurrection on Jan 6.
FGITD wrote:casinterest wrote:For those still awaiting sentencing or trial, it may be good to point out that they fell for the lies of Trump.
Georgia officials have confirmed that just 4 people were found guilty of casting a vote for the deceased.But Trump included his claim in a notorious call in which he pushed the Georgia secretary of state, Republican Brad Raffensperger, to “find” enough votes to give him victory.
“Dead people,” Trump said. “So dead people voted, and I think the number is close to 5,000 people. And they went to obituaries. They went to all sorts of methods to come up with an accurate number, and a minimum is close to about 5,000 voters.”
He also claimed that “a tremendous number of dead people” voted in Michigan, adding: “I think it was … 18,000. Some unbelievably high number, much higher than yours, you were in the 4-5,000 category.”
Trump's unfounded lies were what lead up to the insurrection on Jan 6.
Fortunately we have Rand Paul, the voice of reason, who accuses democrats of cheating the election by…campaigning and encouraging voter turnout?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/rand-paul ... e-for-them
U.S. District Judge Timothy Kelly on Tuesday rejected defense attorneys' arguments that the four men — Ethan Nordean, Joseph Biggs, Zachary Rehl and Charles Donohoe — are charged with conduct that is protected by the First Amendment right to free speech.
Kelly said the defendants had many nonviolent ways to express their opinions about the 2020 presidential election.
"Defendants are not, as they argue, charged with anything like burning flags, wearing black armbands, or participating in mere sit-ins or protests," Kelly wrote in his 43-page ruling. "Moreover, even if the charged conduct had some expressive aspect, it lost whatever First Amendment protection it may have had."
Nordean, Biggs, Rehl and Donohoe were indicted in March on charges including conspiracy and obstructing an official proceeding. All four of them remain jailed while they await a trial scheduled for May
casinterest wrote:
Sometimes people with Fascist tendencies need to be reminded how democracy really works.
FGITD wrote:casinterest wrote:
Sometimes people with Fascist tendencies need to be reminded how democracy really works.
Meanwhile you also have MGT who believes that democrat voters who move to Republican states shouldn’t immediately be given the right to vote.
https://www.newsweek.com/marjorie-taylo ... ng-1664155
This was while also conducting a poll via Twitter to survey if people believed red/blue states should “divorce”
I don’t care what party you’re from…if an elected official is saying things like “we should split the country up based on political beliefs” then it’s time to call her a traitor and give her the boot. As I recall, they take an oath to uphold and defend the US constitution. Where in that oath or document does it lay out the framework for limiting voting rights and splitting up the country?
The Justice Department has unsealed a major indictment charging the leader of the Oath Keepers militia group along with multiple other members with seditious conspiracy related to their alleged coordination in advance of the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol.
The three indictments mark the Justice Department's first Jan. 6 use of the seditious conspiracy charge, which accuses Oath Keepers leader Stewart Rhodes and other members of the group of conspiring to "oppose by force the execution of the laws governing the transfer of presidential power" from outgoing President Donald Trump to incoming President Joe Biden
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
"We build investigations by laying a foundation," Garland said in the remarks. "We resolve more straightforward cases first because they provide the evidentiary foundation for more complex cases. Investigating the more overt crimes generates linkages to less overt ones. Overt actors and the evidence they provide can lead us to others who may also have been involved. And that evidence can serve as the foundation for further investigative leads and techniques."
pune wrote:The moment these people are convicted, all their cell phone records and whatnot can be used by FBI to find who talked to whom and what exactly happened. It will go both horizontal and vertical and hopefully there would be a day where Mr. Trump himself would be prosecuted.
seb146 wrote:pune wrote:The moment these people are convicted, all their cell phone records and whatnot can be used by FBI to find who talked to whom and what exactly happened. It will go both horizontal and vertical and hopefully there would be a day where Mr. Trump himself would be prosecuted.
He won't. His party will not allow it. We already know right wing talking heads were texting him telling him to stop the attack but he did not.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/house-com ... y-for-help
https://apnews.com/article/sean-hannity ... 3584b53b60
pune wrote:seb146 wrote:pune wrote:The moment these people are convicted, all their cell phone records and whatnot can be used by FBI to find who talked to whom and what exactly happened. It will go both horizontal and vertical and hopefully there would be a day where Mr. Trump himself would be prosecuted.
He won't. His party will not allow it. We already know right wing talking heads were texting him telling him to stop the attack but he did not.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/house-com ... y-for-help
https://apnews.com/article/sean-hannity ... 3584b53b60
True, but it is the weight of the evidence that will eventually sink them. As more and more evidence comes to light. For e.g. they have subpoenaed big tech and people in Big Tech currently are sharing the same things in documentary proof of what is already known by the prosecutors or what Big Tech thinks the prosecutors know. This also does mean that Big Tech is being complicit with the right. There have been more than enough leaks over years to know that Facebook doesn't give a damn about people's civil rights and for them it's all about profits. The same is true of Twitter but to a slightly lesser extent. All the others are more or less the same. There are tools like fediverse who do try to be more transparent but they themselves get played by the same RW. But that probably is another discussion altogether
"I say he has responsibility," McCarthy said on KERN, a local radio station in Bakersfield, California, on January 12 of last year. "He told me personally that he does have some responsibility. I think a lot of people do."
casinterest wrote:johns624 wrote:Aaron747 wrote:On the one hand, they're seen as martyrs. On the other, I don't think any of these armchair idolizers wants to follow in their footsteps and be thrown in prison.Oh they are definitely seen as heroes by nutjobs already. Being investigated by the FBI is a badge of honor for such folks because the FBI is the enemy
When you really think about it, for all of the millions of people who thought the election was stolen, a tiny percentage of them actually showed up in DC to do anything about it. There were still too many, but it shows that most just have big mouths.
They are criminals and wannabee terrorists. They can be seen in prison as heroes by those too stupid to recognize that they are being protected from their uncivilized actions as well.
There would have probably been a lot more if it had occurred on a weekend instead of a Wednesday.
skyservice_330 wrote:Interesting article from WaPo as to how the narratives that talking heads on the right have been pushing will be put to a test in the courts...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... gn=wp_main
The right’s conspiratorial defenses of Jan. 6 figures come under microscope with seditious-conspiracy charges
Key Excerpt:
All of these defendants are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. The point is that lots of people with an agenda and a narrative to build have jumped to all kinds of unwarranted conclusions about Jan. 6 figures’ status as political prisoners or part of a government conspiracy, based upon highly incomplete information and dubious inferences.
Some of those same figures now find themselves facing historic charges of conspiring against their government, meaning those preemptive and speculative defenses will now be seriously put to the test.
An Associated Press review of every potential case of voter fraud in the six battleground states disputed by former President Donald Trump has found fewer than 475 — a number that would have made no difference in the 2020 presidential election.
ese are some of the culprits in the “massive election fraud” Trump falsely says deprived him of a second term:
A Wisconsin man who mistakenly thought he could vote while on parole.
A woman in Arizona suspected of sending in a ballot for her dead mother.
A Pennsylvania man who went twice to the polls, voting once on his own behalf and once for his son.
The cases were isolated. There was no widespread, coordinated deceit.
The cases also underscore that suspected fraud is both generally detected and exceptionally rare.
“Voter fraud is virtually non-existent,” said George Christenson, election clerk for Milwaukee County in Wisconsin, where five people statewide have been charged with fraud out of nearly 3.3 million ballots cast for president. “I would have to venture a guess that’s about the same odds as getting hit by lightning.”
skyservice_330 wrote:A lot of media coverage on the different elements of the legal ramifications for those that were involved in the violent 'Unite the Right' gathering and the Jan 6 insurrection -
Jan. 6 rioter in horned fur hat sentenced to 41 months
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/jan-6-riot ... -1.5670082
Most heavily armed January 6 rioter pleads guilty to bringing five firearms and 11 Molotov cocktails to Capitol
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 57164.html
US Capitol rioter who assaulted police officer gets 41 months in prison
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/10/politics ... index.html
Unite the Right organizer appeared to instruct followers to mislead law enforcement, court evidence suggests
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va ... -cantwell/
“I Want Them To Start Something”: White Supremacists Allegedly Strategized How To Provoke Counterprotesters Ahead Of The “Unite The Right” Rally
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ch ... r-cantwell
Two “Unite The Right” Defendants Asked The Judge To Dismiss Their Case. It Backfired Spectacularly.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ch ... rd-spencer
Some initial thoughts -
- The Jan 6 storm of the capitol represents a massive security failure - those involved in storming the building, hunting for politicians they disagreed with, and brutalizing police officers must be prosecuted. They attempted to interfere with the democratic process, and there should be a top to bottom investigation of how it transpired, who knew what, and when they knew it. If elected officials or party operatives were aware or somehow complicit, that is inexcusable. If someone is showing up with Molotov cocktails and spears to a supposedly peaceful protest, then planned nefarious intent cannot be dismissed.
- I worry about the martyrdom effect this could have on susceptible minds - instead of these perpetrators of violence being seen as such, they will be seen as martyrs - to be celebrated, glorified - and the motivation this could have on others to undertake violence in their name(s) is concerning.
As more charges are laid, pleas and admissions are made, or legal resolutions are pursued this thread can serve as an inventory for tracking and discussing.
LCDFlight wrote:skyservice_330 wrote:A lot of media coverage on the different elements of the legal ramifications for those that were involved in the violent 'Unite the Right' gathering and the Jan 6 insurrection -
Jan. 6 rioter in horned fur hat sentenced to 41 months
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/jan-6-riot ... -1.5670082
Most heavily armed January 6 rioter pleads guilty to bringing five firearms and 11 Molotov cocktails to Capitol
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 57164.html
US Capitol rioter who assaulted police officer gets 41 months in prison
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/10/politics ... index.html
Unite the Right organizer appeared to instruct followers to mislead law enforcement, court evidence suggests
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va ... -cantwell/
“I Want Them To Start Something”: White Supremacists Allegedly Strategized How To Provoke Counterprotesters Ahead Of The “Unite The Right” Rally
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ch ... r-cantwell
Two “Unite The Right” Defendants Asked The Judge To Dismiss Their Case. It Backfired Spectacularly.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ch ... rd-spencer
Some initial thoughts -
- The Jan 6 storm of the capitol represents a massive security failure - those involved in storming the building, hunting for politicians they disagreed with, and brutalizing police officers must be prosecuted. They attempted to interfere with the democratic process, and there should be a top to bottom investigation of how it transpired, who knew what, and when they knew it. If elected officials or party operatives were aware or somehow complicit, that is inexcusable. If someone is showing up with Molotov cocktails and spears to a supposedly peaceful protest, then planned nefarious intent cannot be dismissed.
- I worry about the martyrdom effect this could have on susceptible minds - instead of these perpetrators of violence being seen as such, they will be seen as martyrs - to be celebrated, glorified - and the motivation this could have on others to undertake violence in their name(s) is concerning.
As more charges are laid, pleas and admissions are made, or legal resolutions are pursued this thread can serve as an inventory for tracking and discussing.
You are right to call it a security failure. That’s what it was, and it was glaring. Almost 20 years after 9/11, there was a massive federal staff paid (and paid well) to keep our Capitol safe. They had drills, exercises and no doubt consumed endless ammunition at the gun range. Obviously, they nearly totally failed when the actual threat came.
There are always a few hundred goons (in every country) that would like to take over. Even in Canada, I suspect. This is why we have police.
The legal ramifications are nothing, in my view. The law was already clear about this. You can say whatever you want, and you can demonstrate on the National Mall. But you cannot storm federal buildings, especially that one, at that time.
In my view, it only happened because we have so few actual threats that the security directors treated their jobs as pure patronage jobs with no need to perform actual work. They were fat, lazy walruses collecting a paycheck for a threat they believed would never come.
LCDFlight wrote:That’s like saying a rape only happened because the raped woman was wearing a short skirt.In my view, it only happened because we have so few actual threats that the security directors treated their jobs as pure patronage jobs with no need to perform actual work. They were fat, lazy walruses collecting a paycheck for a threat they believed would never come.
pune wrote:LCDFlight wrote:skyservice_330 wrote:A lot of media coverage on the different elements of the legal ramifications for those that were involved in the violent 'Unite the Right' gathering and the Jan 6 insurrection -
Jan. 6 rioter in horned fur hat sentenced to 41 months
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/jan-6-riot ... -1.5670082
Most heavily armed January 6 rioter pleads guilty to bringing five firearms and 11 Molotov cocktails to Capitol
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 57164.html
US Capitol rioter who assaulted police officer gets 41 months in prison
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/10/politics ... index.html
Unite the Right organizer appeared to instruct followers to mislead law enforcement, court evidence suggests
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va ... -cantwell/
“I Want Them To Start Something”: White Supremacists Allegedly Strategized How To Provoke Counterprotesters Ahead Of The “Unite The Right” Rally
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ch ... r-cantwell
Two “Unite The Right” Defendants Asked The Judge To Dismiss Their Case. It Backfired Spectacularly.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ch ... rd-spencer
Some initial thoughts -
- The Jan 6 storm of the capitol represents a massive security failure - those involved in storming the building, hunting for politicians they disagreed with, and brutalizing police officers must be prosecuted. They attempted to interfere with the democratic process, and there should be a top to bottom investigation of how it transpired, who knew what, and when they knew it. If elected officials or party operatives were aware or somehow complicit, that is inexcusable. If someone is showing up with Molotov cocktails and spears to a supposedly peaceful protest, then planned nefarious intent cannot be dismissed.
- I worry about the martyrdom effect this could have on susceptible minds - instead of these perpetrators of violence being seen as such, they will be seen as martyrs - to be celebrated, glorified - and the motivation this could have on others to undertake violence in their name(s) is concerning.
As more charges are laid, pleas and admissions are made, or legal resolutions are pursued this thread can serve as an inventory for tracking and discussing.
You are right to call it a security failure. That’s what it was, and it was glaring. Almost 20 years after 9/11, there was a massive federal staff paid (and paid well) to keep our Capitol safe. They had drills, exercises and no doubt consumed endless ammunition at the gun range. Obviously, they nearly totally failed when the actual threat came.
There are always a few hundred goons (in every country) that would like to take over. Even in Canada, I suspect. This is why we have police.
The legal ramifications are nothing, in my view. The law was already clear about this. You can say whatever you want, and you can demonstrate on the National Mall. But you cannot storm federal buildings, especially that one, at that time.
In my view, it only happened because we have so few actual threats that the security directors treated their jobs as pure patronage jobs with no need to perform actual work. They were fat, lazy walruses collecting a paycheck for a threat they believed would never come.
Partly true, but partly also they were waiting for orders from the president. Otherwise, the same people could have been in courts for showing extra 'zeal' or some similar grounds. What is also not known is did FBI had intelligence about the riots that they passed to Mr.Trump and he did nothng. This is also possible. He probably played both sides.
petertenthije wrote:LCDFlight wrote:That’s like saying a rape only happened because the raped woman was wearing a short skirt.In my view, it only happened because we have so few actual threats that the security directors treated their jobs as pure patronage jobs with no need to perform actual work. They were fat, lazy walruses collecting a paycheck for a threat they believed would never come.
pune wrote:It should be amended to police should generally know this. I think there is more than enough blame to go around apart from the people who planned, abetted and carried out the insurrection. They definitely need to be punished. I think Big Tech also needs to be taken through cleaners. They seem to know an awful lot of the whole planning and scheme of things so they are complicit no matter what they or their lawyers say. I'm saying this as the news of drip-drip information provided by them that only confirms what the investigators know or can know.
As a non-American it doesn't affect me directly, although can see the same tactics being applied here. And here things are much more on a slippery slope.
LCDFlight wrote:You are right to call it a security failure. That’s what it was, and it was glaring. Almost 20 years after 9/11, there was a massive federal staff paid (and paid well) to keep our Capitol safe. They had drills, exercises and no doubt consumed endless ammunition at the gun range. Obviously, they nearly totally failed when the actual threat came.
There are always a few hundred goons (in every country) that would like to take over. Even in Canada, I suspect. This is why we have police.
The legal ramifications are nothing, in my view. The law was already clear about this. You can say whatever you want, and you can demonstrate on the National Mall. But you cannot storm federal buildings, especially that one, at that time.
In my view, it only happened because we have so few actual threats that the security directors treated their jobs as pure patronage jobs with no need to perform actual work. They were fat, lazy walruses collecting a paycheck for a threat they believed would never come.
Tugger wrote:LCDFlight wrote:You are right to call it a security failure. That’s what it was, and it was glaring. Almost 20 years after 9/11, there was a massive federal staff paid (and paid well) to keep our Capitol safe. They had drills, exercises and no doubt consumed endless ammunition at the gun range. Obviously, they nearly totally failed when the actual threat came.
There are always a few hundred goons (in every country) that would like to take over. Even in Canada, I suspect. This is why we have police.
The legal ramifications are nothing, in my view. The law was already clear about this. You can say whatever you want, and you can demonstrate on the National Mall. But you cannot storm federal buildings, especially that one, at that time.
In my view, it only happened because we have so few actual threats that the security directors treated their jobs as pure patronage jobs with no need to perform actual work. They were fat, lazy walruses collecting a paycheck for a threat they believed would never come.
While I in some way very much agree that the Capitol Police should have just let loose and fired upon the crowd, I also and very glad they did not and truly NEVER want to see my own nation fire upon it's own citizens.
And everyone should understand and agree with that.
Even the one death, while justified, was not a good or desired thing.
For the full force of the Capitol Police to open fire and fully resist the crowd, while the people they are otherwise there to protect are safely evacuated and not under direct threat, it would be the worst of all possible things to happen.
And the few times US federal authorities have opened fire is/was terrible for the nation.
In this case, not going full "stop" and using leathal force to stop the intrusion was absolutely the right thing to do. Simply because the legislators were in fact safely secured then evacuated and not at immediate risk.
While I in some ways wanted the people with bad intent just killed, stopped, that day. the morons and people with them would have been too and we are a better nation than that. Or at least we need to be a better nation than that.
I don't want to be Kazakhstan. Or Russia, Or China. Or North Korea. Ever.
Tugg
casinterest wrote:pune wrote:It should be amended to police should generally know this. I think there is more than enough blame to go around apart from the people who planned, abetted and carried out the insurrection. They definitely need to be punished. I think Big Tech also needs to be taken through cleaners. They seem to know an awful lot of the whole planning and scheme of things so they are complicit no matter what they or their lawyers say. I'm saying this as the news of drip-drip information provided by them that only confirms what the investigators know or can know.
As a non-American it doesn't affect me directly, although can see the same tactics being applied here. And here things are much more on a slippery slope.
The push against "Big Tech" is the same as the one against "Mainstream Media" It is a political ploy to drive supporters into the Right wing echo chamber.
What big tech does is allow everyone to communicate. This isn't good for Big Tech as the conspiracy theorists usually get their items removed in no time.
I watch Facebook pull-down dozens of groups that known acquaintances tried to pull everyone into that were full of the right wing nutjobs right after it became clear that Biden won.
The "Big Tech" pushback it just setting the stage for the new Trump Pravda network, and Mike Lindell networks that will keep unaware people locked into a circular echo wing that amplifies fake information. It will become more like China's and Russia's own media networks that feed the party line.
Facebook , Twitter, instagram, and even Anet are the only real hope against a slide into rampant misinformation sites.
pune wrote:casinterest wrote:pune wrote:It should be amended to police should generally know this. I think there is more than enough blame to go around apart from the people who planned, abetted and carried out the insurrection. They definitely need to be punished. I think Big Tech also needs to be taken through cleaners. They seem to know an awful lot of the whole planning and scheme of things so they are complicit no matter what they or their lawyers say. I'm saying this as the news of drip-drip information provided by them that only confirms what the investigators know or can know.
As a non-American it doesn't affect me directly, although can see the same tactics being applied here. And here things are much more on a slippery slope.
The push against "Big Tech" is the same as the one against "Mainstream Media" It is a political ploy to drive supporters into the Right wing echo chamber.
What big tech does is allow everyone to communicate. This isn't good for Big Tech as the conspiracy theorists usually get their items removed in no time.
I watch Facebook pull-down dozens of groups that known acquaintances tried to pull everyone into that were full of the right wing nutjobs right after it became clear that Biden won.
The "Big Tech" pushback it just setting the stage for the new Trump Pravda network, and Mike Lindell networks that will keep unaware people locked into a circular echo wing that amplifies fake information. It will become more like China's and Russia's own media networks that feed the party line.
Facebook , Twitter, instagram, and even Anet are the only real hope against a slide into rampant misinformation sites.
How do you see this then and there is more than enough people who had been sharing about FB's own shortcomings over the years and they have done nothing about it. They don't want to spend money on it as controversy is lucrative. This is the same/similar as Twitter.
https://www.npr.org/2021/10/25/10489187 ... nformation
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... hang-guide
And I have shared just a couple, I know of at least half a dozen such people. And in all FB just reacted, didn't take action on its own. I know of my own country, they have done the most minimalist stuff and have been recorded saying they won't shut RW groups or whatnot down as they are bad for business. All the people who look after India are close and part of the BJP. Many of them are relatives of BJP leaders. In other countries, you would have something called 'conflict of interest' and while there is that term in the law, it is seldomly applied here. Hell, we don't even believe in international law since 2014 (since BJP took over) and there is n number of incidents and cases that show/potray it.
In addition to Giuliani, the committee issued subpoenas to two other attorneys who pushed various election fraud conspiracies on Trump's behalf: Jenna Ellis and Sidney Powell.
Former Trump campaign adviser Boris Epshteyn, who was among those working with Giuliani at the post-election Willard Hotel "command center," was also subpoenaed Tuesday.
Trump at a rally in Texas on Saturday said if he ran for reelection and won in 2024, he would treat those convicted of crimes connected to the Jan. 6, 2021, Capitol riots "fairly," adding "if it requires pardons, we will give them pardons, because they are being treated so unfairly."
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Trump's remarks have drawn backlash from members of his own party. Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) and New Hampshire Gov. Chris Sununu (R) both called Trump's promise of pardons inappropriate, and his comments on Sunday night drew condemnation from others.
"He defended the actions of his supporters, who stormed the Capitol and brutally attacked the law enforcement officers protecting it. I think it’s important to shout that out and call that out," Psaki said at a press briefing when asked about Trump's comments and potential reforms to the Electoral Count Act.
"He even attacked his own vice president for not, in his words, having overturned the election," Psaki continued. "And it’s just a reminder of how unfit he is for office. And it’s telling that even some of his closest allies have rejected those remarks as inappropriate in the days since."