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ArchGuy1
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Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:15 am

The statue of Thomas Jefferson that has been in the chambers of New York City Hall will be removed after being there for more than a hundred years. In the future, the Statue will be located in the New York Historical Society museum. Personally, I think that such a statue should not be removed, but simply recontextualized to deal with the issue of Thomas Jefferson as a slave owner.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.travel ... tue/%3famp
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:26 am

Removal is dumb...it disallows opportunities to engage debate and learn the complexities of individuals in history.
 
Newark727
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:02 am

There's a difference between putting up a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest to remind the black man of his place, and putting up a statue of Thomas Jefferson because, well, he wrote the Declaration of Independence and all. You can't learn history without meeting your heroes and finding them wanting. Frankly we should have the strength of character to look forward to it.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:03 am

I read a recent biography on him a few years ago. He kept meticulous accounts of all of his expenditures, but never kept track of his ever increasing debt. His account books never did a balance sheet, debts versus assets. Typical of him was when a new piano came out of Europe was buying Two. I suspect this lack of prudence had something to do with his and Franklin's relationships which was always problematical, Also unlike Washington he was an unapologetic cruel owner and seller of slaves. After reading the biography I came to the conclusion his standing in history was compromised almost beyond redemption.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:15 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I read a recent biography on him a few years ago. He kept meticulous accounts of all of his expenditures, but never kept track of his ever increasing debt. His account books never did a balance sheet, debts versus assets. Typical of him was when a new piano came out of Europe was buying Two. I suspect this lack of prudence had something to do with his and Franklin's relationships which was always problematical, Also unlike Washington he was an unapologetic cruel owner and seller of slaves. After reading the biography I came to the conclusion his standing in history was compromised almost beyond redemption.


Jefferson was a talented lawyer and diplomat but also unquestionably a malignant narcissist.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:46 am

Jefferson achieved things beyond those achieved by any human alive today. It is laughable for common crook politicians to take potshots at him. Yes, oh, a malignant narcissist… so what? So was Churchill. So is Elon Musk. Dare we say Martin Luther King? Is Michelangelo up for review next?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:14 am

The statue is going to a museum where it will be seen by more and given historical context. No need for it to waste space in a city council meeting room.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:56 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Jefferson achieved things beyond those achieved by any human alive today. It is laughable for common crook politicians to take potshots at him. Yes, oh, a malignant narcissist… so what? So was Churchill. So is Elon Musk. Dare we say Martin Luther King? Is Michelangelo up for review next?


So....a historical figure's personality and character are just as up for discussion as their achievements. It does not negate those achievements but provides a more nuanced context when people want to bestow sainthood. And it is intellectually dishonest to put legal achievements on a pedestal when their completion depends as much upon the man as the moment and opportunity. Today's politicians do not have the environment or opportunity to be anywhere near as transformational as members of a mature (or declining) system.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:02 pm

For at least a decade, Black and other social, religious and political leaders have put serious pressure on governments to remove from any public place of honor of anyone who was as a owner or trader of slaves; of any political and military leader, memorials or symbols related to the Confederate States of America, and major reforms in education as to history as to Black persons in the USA.

The City of NY has a large Black population and somewhat proportional representation on their City Council and overall government. Those government officials are responding to their Black constituents for removal of offensive symbols and as an easy and symbolic way to get votes. At least here, the removal will be done by a democratic procedure, not a mob tearing it down, vandalizing it and moved to a place where historical context can be with it. Now the question is what will take its place. Perhaps not replaced or one of an anti-slavery leader, a civil rights leader, a labor leader, social reformer (but be careful there too as many such persons had other social flaws).
 
KWexpress
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:11 pm

Not all parts of history are good or will make us feel comfortable. The good and bad parts both need to be remembered and taught or we are bound to repeat it.
 
Redd
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:21 pm

So when is Mount Rushmore being blasted apart? Can't be too long from now, the way things are going over there.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:57 pm

KWexpress wrote:
Not all parts of history are good or will make us feel comfortable. The good and bad parts both need to be remembered and taught or we are bound to repeat it.


Exactly. Human history is almost constant suffering, toothaches, rapes and murders. I am not sure where people get the expectation that history is supposed to be "nice."

People have no idea how we got here, and seemingly no interest. Consequently, they do not understand reality too well. We got here because heroic and literate women and men got us here, which took 50,000 years.

We are the luckiest people who ever lived. If people learn history from Twitter, pop culture or corporate mainstream media, they aren't getting very true information.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:20 am

The recasting of history is a part of the interpretation of history... But we must be careful from modern academia causing snap pendulum swings of opinion as well as being careful of circular opinions becoming more influential than fact based or more orthodox views... Finding that middle ground is becoming difficult.

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Aaron747
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:24 am

northstardc4m wrote:
The recasting of history is a part of the interpretation of history... But we must be careful from modern academia causing snap pendulum swings of opinion as well as being careful of circular opinions becoming more influential than fact based or more orthodox views... Finding that middle ground is becoming difficult.

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That's why we have to stay vigilant. Letting go of the middle ground means mindless demonization and sanctification prevail.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:31 am

Aaron747 wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:
The recasting of history is a part of the interpretation of history... But we must be careful from modern academia causing snap pendulum swings of opinion as well as being careful of circular opinions becoming more influential than fact based or more orthodox views... Finding that middle ground is becoming difficult.

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That's why we have to stay vigilant. Letting go of the middle ground means mindless demonization and sanctification prevail.



We are not looking for a middle ground, we are looking for objectivity. A arbitrarily defined middle is by necessity, affected by the need to mollify extremes. An accurate telling of history does not favor this.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:42 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:
The recasting of history is a part of the interpretation of history... But we must be careful from modern academia causing snap pendulum swings of opinion as well as being careful of circular opinions becoming more influential than fact based or more orthodox views... Finding that middle ground is becoming difficult.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk


That's why we have to stay vigilant. Letting go of the middle ground means mindless demonization and sanctification prevail.



We are not looking for a middle ground, we are looking for objectivity. A arbitrarily defined middle is by necessity, affected by the need to mollify extremes. An accurate telling of history does not favor this.
Objectivity becomes obfuscated when we are talking about opinions on motives for people long dead... This is becoming more and more a problem IMHO. So no it isn't about extreme views, it's about keeping waves of opinion becoming more supported than facts and deliberate modern bias from being interjected into complex and controversial history.

I am getting fed up with people touting consensus of opinions when the consensus is a few modern academics quoting each other and having no firm basis in facts.

We have to stop history becoming people deciding what historical figures were thinking when there is no factual evidence to back it up.

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Aaron747
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:54 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:
The recasting of history is a part of the interpretation of history... But we must be careful from modern academia causing snap pendulum swings of opinion as well as being careful of circular opinions becoming more influential than fact based or more orthodox views... Finding that middle ground is becoming difficult.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk


That's why we have to stay vigilant. Letting go of the middle ground means mindless demonization and sanctification prevail.



We are not looking for a middle ground, we are looking for objectivity. A arbitrarily defined middle is by necessity, affected by the need to mollify extremes. An accurate telling of history does not favor this.


Objectivity is the middle ground. The extremes are emotional - an abject hazard to fastidious factual reference and analysis. As I said upthread, a revered historical figure can possess both great achievements and ostensibly terrible personal morals or behaviors. Not so arbitrary.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:57 am

northstardc4m wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

That's why we have to stay vigilant. Letting go of the middle ground means mindless demonization and sanctification prevail.



We are not looking for a middle ground, we are looking for objectivity. A arbitrarily defined middle is by necessity, affected by the need to mollify extremes. An accurate telling of history does not favor this.
Objectivity becomes obfuscated when we are talking about opinions on motives for people long dead... This is becoming more and more a problem IMHO. So no it isn't about extreme views, it's about keeping waves of opinion becoming more supported than facts and deliberate modern bias from being interjected into complex and controversial history.

I am getting fed up with people touting consensus of opinions when the consensus is a few modern academics quoting each other and having no firm basis in facts.

We have to stop history becoming people deciding what historical figures were thinking when there is no factual evidence to back it up.

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Not trying to be obtuse, but if people have serious objections to what academic historians are saying, they should complete a Ph.D. and work toward a new consensus or publish against what's in fashion.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:41 am

A once respected French politician, Rama Yade, on the center right of politics (she was a minister of President Sarkozy) has gone full woke and said the other day that seeing the statute of Colbert in front of the National Assembly was a micro-aggression for her (a black woman, although not a former slave of anyone French, as she wasn't born French).

Someone made a fitting answer, and that's the reason I'm talking about it here : how does she feel about living in Washington ?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:10 pm

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the ...


This is the Jefferson for which he is held in such esteem.

This does not seem to the person who was a cruel and abusive slave owner.

Washington, on the other hand, acted upon those sentiments throughout his life. In his actions and in his will.

Both likely knew that powerful slave owners would incite poorer white people to fight to death over preserving slavery. Washington stated should it come to that he would flee to the north. Kind of sounds parallel to today.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Thomas Jefferson Statue Inside New York City Hall to be Removed

Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:35 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:


We are not looking for a middle ground, we are looking for objectivity. A arbitrarily defined middle is by necessity, affected by the need to mollify extremes. An accurate telling of history does not favor this.
Objectivity becomes obfuscated when we are talking about opinions on motives for people long dead... This is becoming more and more a problem IMHO. So no it isn't about extreme views, it's about keeping waves of opinion becoming more supported than facts and deliberate modern bias from being interjected into complex and controversial history.

I am getting fed up with people touting consensus of opinions when the consensus is a few modern academics quoting each other and having no firm basis in facts.

We have to stop history becoming people deciding what historical figures were thinking when there is no factual evidence to back it up.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk


Not trying to be obtuse, but if people have serious objections to what academic historians are saying, they should complete a Ph.D. and work toward a new consensus or publish against what's in fashion.
That used to be true...


When academic opinions stayed opinions pending the discovery of supporting evidence there was no issue. The problem is today activists and politicians are cherry picking opinions and weaponizing them for short sighted objectives. Some Academics have now learned this and some are writing opinions with bias in them to be used in this way... This extends beyond history in fact and is growing.

That needs to be stopped but it won't.

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