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ItnStln
Posts: 338
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:01 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
This is just the pro-gun lobby's boogie man.



BS, if it were up to the Dem party we would be allowed a musket they don't want any weapon that is semi-automatic or holds mor than 3 rounds. How about you give us your solution and what guns we can have?

Wait, they'd let us have a musket? I'm pretty sure if they had their way law abiding citizens wouldn't be able to have any weapon.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 428
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:03 pm

ItnStln wrote:
seb146 wrote:
We can not restrict gun ownership in the United States.

"Shall not be infringed" means just that, shall not be infringed. I fail to see why some people can't comprehend this.


Most people that don't get that like to use their First Amendment to tell others about it.
 
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seb146
Posts: 24177
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:06 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
seb146 wrote:
We can not restrict gun ownership in the United States.

"Shall not be infringed" means just that, shall not be infringed. I fail to see why some people can't comprehend this.


Most people that don't get that like to use their First Amendment to tell others about it.


"A well regulated militia" is what the Founding Fathers decided to start that with. 2A fans always always always ignore that. No matter how many children are gunned down.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 428
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:09 pm

seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
"Shall not be infringed" means just that, shall not be infringed. I fail to see why some people can't comprehend this.


Most people that don't get that like to use their First Amendment to tell others about it.


"A well regulated militia" is what the Founding Fathers decided to start that with. 2A fans always always always ignore that. No matter how many children are gunned down.


No one forgets that, the SCOTUS has ruled on that.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2173
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:00 pm

Are there any reasons why the US is the only country in the developed world where anyone has a real sense that they need to own a gun for protection?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8966
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:20 pm

scbriml wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
The problem is people that are against the 2A want all guns removed and that is just not gun control and not going to happen.


This is just the pro-gun lobby's boogie man.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I would think convicting the parents would have a sobering effect on the idiots raising kids.


Like the death penalty has stopped all murder?

I mean, sure, indict the father if it turns out the gun wasn't properly secured, but otherwise you're just pissing in the wind.


If parents knew they’d be in dock with their wayward child, it might improve the incentives for better parenting. Or just remove bad parents from society. As an Englishman once stated, “we hang horse thieves not because they stole horses but so horses aren’t stolen”. Punishment is deterrence.
 
TriJets
Posts: 129
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:13 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:34 pm

Kent350787 wrote:
Are there any reasons why the US is the only country in the developed world where anyone has a real sense that they need to own a gun for protection?


More guns here than people, for starters. Bad guys already have guns and always will. Police are minutes away when you need them on a good day.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2173
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Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:57 pm

TriJets wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
Are there any reasons why the US is the only country in the developed world where anyone has a real sense that they need to own a gun for protection?


More guns here than people, for starters. Bad guys already have guns and always will. Police are minutes away when you need them on a good day.


Are there reasons why things are different to Canada, where gun ownership is also high? Is there a possibility of taking guns away from the bad guys rather than everyone arming themselves.

It doesn't sem to be a sensible place for a society to see itself if the outcome is simply an arms race with no decline in deaths.
 
wingman
Posts: 4218
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Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:29 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Most people that don't get that like to use their First Amendment to tell others about it.


"A well regulated militia" is what the Founding Fathers decided to start that with. 2A fans always always always ignore that. No matter how many children are gunned down.


No one forgets that, the SCOTUS has ruled on that.


They ruled on Roe v Wade too but SCOTUS looks like it’s about to change its mind. Someday a different SCOTUS may wonder what that well-regulated militia bit is really all about. I don’t think Adams and Franklin were envisioning the kind of carnage that has turned this country into a crazed, fear-driven society awash in adolescent blood. Guns should be treated just like driving - well regulated.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8966
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:27 am

wingman wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

"A well regulated militia" is what the Founding Fathers decided to start that with. 2A fans always always always ignore that. No matter how many children are gunned down.


No one forgets that, the SCOTUS has ruled on that.


They ruled on Roe v Wade too but SCOTUS looks like it’s about to change its mind. Someday a different SCOTUS may wonder what that well-regulated militia bit is really all about. I don’t think Adams and Franklin were envisioning the kind of carnage that has turned this country into a crazed, fear-driven society awash in adolescent blood. Guns should be treated just like driving - well regulated.



Have you been on the roads lately? You won’t find much regulation or compliance there. US highway deaths lead the G-20.
 
johns624
Posts: 4577
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Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:33 am

Kent350787 wrote:
Is there a possibility of taking guns away from the bad guys rather than everyone arming themselves.
How do you propose to do that?
 
johns624
Posts: 4577
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Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:35 am

People need to read up on what "well regulated" meant in the time that the Bill of Rights was written.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2173
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:14 am

johns624 wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
Is there a possibility of taking guns away from the bad guys rather than everyone arming themselves.
How do you propose to do that?


Not being in the US (although a visitor with US family) I don't really know.

I live in a country where I have never once been scared of a random firearm related crime against me or my family in my 50+ years on this earth.

But the "I'm a good guys who needs a gun because bad guys have got guns" seems to be an insane self-perpetuating arms race. Unless someone is prepared to try something, I can't see any point even around thougths and prayers when is comes to the massive levels of gun related homicide in the US. Perhaps it's a just a fact of the society that reaosnable people elsewhere should start shrugging their shoulders at?
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2173
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Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:17 am

johns624 wrote:
People need to read up on what "well regulated" meant in the time that the Bill of Rights was written.


"well regulated militia". To an outsider it seems clear that it was intedned to ensure an armed reserve force in the case of an invasion by the British or other external forces.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2701
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Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:36 am

TriJets wrote:
More guns here than people, for starters. Bad guys already have guns and always will. Police are minutes away when you need them on a good day.


Isn't the underlying reasoning here a little bit circular? We have more guns than people, because we need to protect ourselves from the bad guys who have guns, because we have more guns than people.
 
TriJets
Posts: 129
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:13 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:44 am

Newark727 wrote:
TriJets wrote:
More guns here than people, for starters. Bad guys already have guns and always will. Police are minutes away when you need them on a good day.


Isn't the underlying reasoning here a little bit circular? We have more guns than people, because we need to protect ourselves from the bad guys who have guns, because we have more guns than people.


I'd be happy to get rid of my guns the second every single criminal is disarmed. That's never going to happen, though.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16858
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Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:57 am

Kent350787 wrote:
TriJets wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
Are there any reasons why the US is the only country in the developed world where anyone has a real sense that they need to own a gun for protection?


More guns here than people, for starters. Bad guys already have guns and always will. Police are minutes away when you need them on a good day.


Are there reasons why things are different to Canada, where gun ownership is also high? Is there a possibility of taking guns away from the bad guys rather than everyone arming themselves.

It doesn't sem to be a sensible place for a society to see itself if the outcome is simply an arms race with no decline in deaths.


'Taking guns away from bad guys' would require a level of law enforcement coordination and resource ramp-up never seen in the country's history. It just doesn't seem remotely feasible. I think a lot of Americans would feel more comfortable if such a thing were done, for sure.

How America treats poverty is also an important component - and your Canada comparison is apt. Conditions in poor neighborhoods in Canada are not unlike those in the US - poor quality housing, property crime, and high drug use - but the social safety net is far more robust and that seems to depress levels of violence in Canada by comparison.
 
johns624
Posts: 4577
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:00 am

Kent350787 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
People need to read up on what "well regulated" meant in the time that the Bill of Rights was written.


"well regulated militia". To an outsider it seems clear that it was intedned to ensure an armed reserve force in the case of an invasion by the British or other external forces.
At that time, "well regulated" meant that all members of the militia (the general public) had to have a certain amount of lead balls, black powder and spare flints. The guns also had to be the same caliber for logistics reasons.
 
johns624
Posts: 4577
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:01 am

TriJets wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
TriJets wrote:
More guns here than people, for starters. Bad guys already have guns and always will. Police are minutes away when you need them on a good day.


Isn't the underlying reasoning here a little bit circular? We have more guns than people, because we need to protect ourselves from the bad guys who have guns, because we have more guns than people.


I'd be happy to get rid of my guns the second every single criminal is disarmed. That's never going to happen, though.
The problem with that is that most guns are not kept for defense. They have target and hunting uses.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16858
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Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:02 am

johns624 wrote:
TriJets wrote:
Newark727 wrote:

Isn't the underlying reasoning here a little bit circular? We have more guns than people, because we need to protect ourselves from the bad guys who have guns, because we have more guns than people.


I'd be happy to get rid of my guns the second every single criminal is disarmed. That's never going to happen, though.
The problem with that is that most guns are not kept for defense. They have target and hunting uses.


This is less likely to be the case in a major metro area.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2701
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:21 am

johns624 wrote:
The problem with that is that most guns are not kept for defense. They have target and hunting uses.


From a standpoint of preventing violence, though, guns kept for target shooting and hunting seem a bit less problematic to me. They can be locked in a safe or somesuch when their owners are not performing those activities, and shooters can select venues that are safest - from what I read on here and elsewhere, most hobbyist shooters prefer the ranges that run a tight ship. But if you're expecting to need a gun for self defense, you don't get to pick the time and place, so the need for easy access is more important - and easy access for you, is potentially easy access for someone else (or from the standpoint of suicide prevention, easy access for you when you aren't in a safe frame of mind.)

I don't really have a point to make here, I'm just trying to explore the problem a little more thoroughly.

(I'm also using a generic "you" here, not implying anything about anyone in this thread!)
 
bpatus297
Posts: 428
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:18 pm

wingman wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

"A well regulated militia" is what the Founding Fathers decided to start that with. 2A fans always always always ignore that. No matter how many children are gunned down.


No one forgets that, the SCOTUS has ruled on that.


They ruled on Roe v Wade too but SCOTUS looks like it’s about to change its mind. Someday a different SCOTUS may wonder what that well-regulated militia bit is really all about. I don’t think Adams and Franklin were envisioning the kind of carnage that has turned this country into a crazed, fear-driven society awash in adolescent blood. Guns should be treated just like driving - well regulated.


Yes they can change their mind, but Roe and the 2A are vastly different. One is expressly outlined in the Constitution and the other is not. There is an argument the Roe is implied, but its just that an argument because its not physically written like the 2A. Plus there are the Federalist Papers on the 2A, not Roe. I think the FF wanted personal liberty. I dont think they would be appalled at our liberties as much as they would be appalled at the behavior and lack of responsibility/accountability of a lot of people today. In fact I thjink they would be appalled at the restrictions that have been placed on our liberties, understanding that most have been from congress. Even though I think congress has changed significantly from what they wanted.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 428
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:31 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
wingman wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

No one forgets that, the SCOTUS has ruled on that.


They ruled on Roe v Wade too but SCOTUS looks like it’s about to change its mind. Someday a different SCOTUS may wonder what that well-regulated militia bit is really all about. I don’t think Adams and Franklin were envisioning the kind of carnage that has turned this country into a crazed, fear-driven society awash in adolescent blood. Guns should be treated just like driving - well regulated.


Yes they can change their mind, but Roe and the 2A are vastly different. One is expressly outlined in the Constitution and the other is not. There is an argument the Roe is implied, but its just that an argument because its not physically written like the 2A. Plus there are the Federalist Papers on the 2A, not Roe. I think the FF wanted personal liberty. I dont think they would be appalled at our liberties as much as they would be appalled at the behavior and lack of responsibility/accountability of a lot of people today. In fact I thjink they would be appalled at the restrictions that have been placed on our liberties, understanding that most have been from congress. Even though I think congress has changed significantly from what they wanted.


Here is a link to what the Federalist Papers say on the 2A:

https://thefederalistpapers.org/us/the- ... ays-it-all
 
ItnStln
Posts: 338
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Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:53 pm

Kent350787 wrote:
Are there any reasons why the US is the only country in the developed world where anyone has a real sense that they need to own a gun for protection?

In the unlikely event you're not trolling, I'll answer your question: " the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
 
ItnStln
Posts: 338
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Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:54 pm

Kent350787 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
People need to read up on what "well regulated" meant in the time that the Bill of Rights was written.


"well regulated militia". To an outsider it seems clear that it was intedned to ensure an armed reserve force in the case of an invasion by the British or other external forces.

That is pretty much accurate from a historical perspective. I believe it was something that happened after Concord, but I might be off on that as it's been several years since I looked into that portion of it.
 
ItnStln
Posts: 338
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:57 pm

johns624 wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
People need to read up on what "well regulated" meant in the time that the Bill of Rights was written.


"well regulated militia". To an outsider it seems clear that it was intedned to ensure an armed reserve force in the case of an invasion by the British or other external forces.
At that time, "well regulated" meant that all members of the militia (the general public) had to have a certain amount of lead balls, black powder and spare flints. The guns also had to be the same caliber for logistics reasons.

This. Simply put, all free white men between 18 & 45 are in an, essentially, unorganized militia subject to recall. It was changed to allow all men regardless of color. My understanding is Switzerland's reserve force was based off of this.
 
johns624
Posts: 4577
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:07 pm

They just charged both parents with four counts of involuntary manslaughter.
https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2021 ... ts-charged
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16858
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Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:24 pm

Best boomer take I have seen on school shootings:

“When I was a kid, American kids did drills in school in case Russians wanted to kill them...

...now kids are doing drills in school in case other Americans try to kill them.”
 
StarAC17
Posts: 4286
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:38 pm

ItnStln wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:

"well regulated militia". To an outsider it seems clear that it was intedned to ensure an armed reserve force in the case of an invasion by the British or other external forces.
At that time, "well regulated" meant that all members of the militia (the general public) had to have a certain amount of lead balls, black powder and spare flints. The guns also had to be the same caliber for logistics reasons.

This. Simply put, all free white men between 18 & 45 are in an, essentially, unorganized militia subject to recall. It was changed to allow all men regardless of color. My understanding is Switzerland's reserve force was based off of this.


It is and I think the NRA would lose it if Swiss gun regulations were implemented in the US.

The amendment is meaningless in the face of the biggest military the world as ever know and paramilitary police forces as well.

There is no way that the 2nd amendment holds water today unless a significant portion law enforcement and the military defects to overthrow the US federal government with an organized militia. The military could squash an organized militia in a matter of hours with drones in the modern day.

It was great when it was just muskets as Jim Jeffries says in his bit about guns, but the current government has drones!!

ItnStln wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
Are there any reasons why the US is the only country in the developed world where anyone has a real sense that they need to own a gun for protection?

In the unlikely event you're not trolling, I'll answer your question: " the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


If your going to quote the second amendment at least post the whole thing.

A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

There is no need for a well regulated militia when you have biggest military ever known.

There are also many attacks on the "well regulated" part as well. Whenever there is any discussion about a universal background check system to make sure people who shouldn't have guns can't get them. The NRA and many in congress lose their collective s*it.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1470
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:04 pm

johns624 wrote:
They just charged both parents with four counts of involuntary manslaughter.
https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2021 ... ts-charged


This is a fantastic step forward. One of the few positive developments on this in years.

Who can forget the terrible Sandy Hook massacre in 2012 where the mom provided guns to the mentally ill son, who she had prevented from getting treatment for his mental illnesses. She deserved to be punished too (alas she was shot during the crime itself).
 
bpatus297
Posts: 428
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:12 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
johns624 wrote:
They just charged both parents with four counts of involuntary manslaughter.
https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2021 ... ts-charged


This is a fantastic step forward. One of the few positive developments on this in years.

Who can forget the terrible Sandy Hook massacre in 2012 where the mom provided guns to the mentally ill son, who she had prevented from getting treatment for his mental illnesses. She deserved to be punished too (alas she was shot during the crime itself).


It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Is it wrong of me to hope they take it to trial to see how the courts rule?
 
M564038
Posts: 916
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Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:21 pm

The military being the world’s most advanced and well funded by far, the word «neccesary» loses it’s meaning and thus the right to bear arms. It’s easy.

As for how to get rid of the arms race?

The good guys got to start.

The bad guys will stop, when they aren’t neccesary any more. Very few people want to kill someone if it isn’t needed to reach your goal.

It must be exhausting to live in a country where a large percentage of the population somehow believe they need to arm themselves.

A failing nation.
 
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seb146
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Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:24 pm

wingman wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

"A well regulated militia" is what the Founding Fathers decided to start that with. 2A fans always always always ignore that. No matter how many children are gunned down.


No one forgets that, the SCOTUS has ruled on that.


They ruled on Roe v Wade too but SCOTUS looks like it’s about to change its mind. Someday a different SCOTUS may wonder what that well-regulated militia bit is really all about. I don’t think Adams and Franklin were envisioning the kind of carnage that has turned this country into a crazed, fear-driven society awash in adolescent blood. Guns should be treated just like driving - well regulated.


So, right wing judges legislating from the bench. WHEN the court is packed far to the left and they finally get to rule on what the Founding Fathers actually said about guns and gun ownership and well regulated militias, the right will quietly comply? No? Because "but... but... but... IT IS SETTLED LAW!!!!"

People mention Federalist Papers in regard to militias. Go read what the Founding Fathers said in Federalist Papers about "well regulated militias" and gun ownership. Not a single word about anyone and everyone can have as many guns as they wanted for any reason they want. Not one word. That would be Federalist 29 authored by Alexander Hamilton.

The current far right wing extremists on the court will be taking away our rights. Like marriage equality and voting. But, let's make sure "well regulated militias" are ignored because everyone needs guns at all times. And WHEN the next mass shooting happens, we can all just look the other way. Because "all lives matter" and "every life is precious" and "party of life" and all that...
 
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casinterest
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Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:44 pm

Here is more about what happened. Highlights a lot about why the parents got charged and why there was a meeting at school.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/oxford ... 60da93990b

Nov. 26: Ethan Crumbley's father, James Crumbley, purchased a gun with his son present.
On or about Nov. 26: Ethan Crumbley posted photos of a semi-automatic gun on social media with a caption: “Just got my new beauty today. SIG SAUER 9mm.”
On or about Nov. 27: Jennifer Crumbley, Ethan Crumbley's mother, made a social media post that read, “mom and son day testing out his new Christmas present.”
Nov. 29: A teacher at Oxford High School observed Ethan searching for ammunition on his phone and reported that information to school officials. His parents did not reply when the school attempted to contact them. Later, Jennifer Crumbley exchanged texts with Ethan stating, “LOL I’m not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught.”
Nov. 30: On the morning of the shooting, Ethan’s teacher came across a note that “alarmed her to the point that she took a picture of it on her cell phone.” The note contained “a drawing of a semiautomatic handgun pointing at the words ‘the thoughts won’t stop. help me.’" Also included in the note was a drawing of a bullet with “blood everywhere” written above it. Between the gun and the bullet is a drawing of a person who appears to have been shot twice and bleeding with a laughing emoji under it. The note also has “my life is useless” and “the world is dead” scrawled on it.
The parents were “immediately summoned to the school." A school counselor removed Ethan from class with his backpack and obtained the note, but the drawings of the gun, bloody figure and writings were all “altered.” At the meeting with school officials, his parents were shown the drawing and were told they had to submit their son to counseling within 48 hours. His parents did not ask the whereabouts of the gun and did not to inspect his backpack for the gun which he had with him, according to McDonald. His parents “resisted” the idea of taking Ethan out of school and left without him.


I couldn't imagine leaving without the kid at that point.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 428
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Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:49 pm

casinterest wrote:
Here is more about what happened. Highlights a lot about why the parents got charged and why there was a meeting at school.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/oxford ... 60da93990b

Nov. 26: Ethan Crumbley's father, James Crumbley, purchased a gun with his son present.
On or about Nov. 26: Ethan Crumbley posted photos of a semi-automatic gun on social media with a caption: “Just got my new beauty today. SIG SAUER 9mm.”
On or about Nov. 27: Jennifer Crumbley, Ethan Crumbley's mother, made a social media post that read, “mom and son day testing out his new Christmas present.”
Nov. 29: A teacher at Oxford High School observed Ethan searching for ammunition on his phone and reported that information to school officials. His parents did not reply when the school attempted to contact them. Later, Jennifer Crumbley exchanged texts with Ethan stating, “LOL I’m not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught.”
Nov. 30: On the morning of the shooting, Ethan’s teacher came across a note that “alarmed her to the point that she took a picture of it on her cell phone.” The note contained “a drawing of a semiautomatic handgun pointing at the words ‘the thoughts won’t stop. help me.’" Also included in the note was a drawing of a bullet with “blood everywhere” written above it. Between the gun and the bullet is a drawing of a person who appears to have been shot twice and bleeding with a laughing emoji under it. The note also has “my life is useless” and “the world is dead” scrawled on it.
The parents were “immediately summoned to the school." A school counselor removed Ethan from class with his backpack and obtained the note, but the drawings of the gun, bloody figure and writings were all “altered.” At the meeting with school officials, his parents were shown the drawing and were told they had to submit their son to counseling within 48 hours. His parents did not ask the whereabouts of the gun and did not to inspect his backpack for the gun which he had with him, according to McDonald. His parents “resisted” the idea of taking Ethan out of school and left without him.


I couldn't imagine leaving without the kid at that point.



I'm a little baffled that the school let him back into class as well.
 
johns624
Posts: 4577
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:52 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Here is more about what happened. Highlights a lot about why the parents got charged and why there was a meeting at school.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/oxford ... 60da93990b

Nov. 26: Ethan Crumbley's father, James Crumbley, purchased a gun with his son present.
On or about Nov. 26: Ethan Crumbley posted photos of a semi-automatic gun on social media with a caption: “Just got my new beauty today. SIG SAUER 9mm.”
On or about Nov. 27: Jennifer Crumbley, Ethan Crumbley's mother, made a social media post that read, “mom and son day testing out his new Christmas present.”
Nov. 29: A teacher at Oxford High School observed Ethan searching for ammunition on his phone and reported that information to school officials. His parents did not reply when the school attempted to contact them. Later, Jennifer Crumbley exchanged texts with Ethan stating, “LOL I’m not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught.”
Nov. 30: On the morning of the shooting, Ethan’s teacher came across a note that “alarmed her to the point that she took a picture of it on her cell phone.” The note contained “a drawing of a semiautomatic handgun pointing at the words ‘the thoughts won’t stop. help me.’" Also included in the note was a drawing of a bullet with “blood everywhere” written above it. Between the gun and the bullet is a drawing of a person who appears to have been shot twice and bleeding with a laughing emoji under it. The note also has “my life is useless” and “the world is dead” scrawled on it.
The parents were “immediately summoned to the school." A school counselor removed Ethan from class with his backpack and obtained the note, but the drawings of the gun, bloody figure and writings were all “altered.” At the meeting with school officials, his parents were shown the drawing and were told they had to submit their son to counseling within 48 hours. His parents did not ask the whereabouts of the gun and did not to inspect his backpack for the gun which he had with him, according to McDonald. His parents “resisted” the idea of taking Ethan out of school and left without him.


I couldn't imagine leaving without the kid at that point.



I'm a little baffled that the school let him back into class as well.
Yeah, there are so many unanswered questions. It's one thing buying a 15 year old a deer hunting rifle or a shotgun for bird hunting, but a handgun is stupid. This gets rid of the "he took it without my permission" defense, too. His mother sounds like a crackpot.
 
ItnStln
Posts: 338
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:59 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
johns624 wrote:
At that time, "well regulated" meant that all members of the militia (the general public) had to have a certain amount of lead balls, black powder and spare flints. The guns also had to be the same caliber for logistics reasons.

This. Simply put, all free white men between 18 & 45 are in an, essentially, unorganized militia subject to recall. It was changed to allow all men regardless of color. My understanding is Switzerland's reserve force was based off of this.


It is and I think the NRA would lose it if Swiss gun regulations were implemented in the US.

The amendment is meaningless in the face of the biggest military the world as ever know and paramilitary police forces as well.

There is no way that the 2nd amendment holds water today unless a significant portion law enforcement and the military defects to overthrow the US federal government with an organized militia. The military could squash an organized militia in a matter of hours with drones in the modern day.

It was great when it was just muskets as Jim Jeffries says in his bit about guns, but the current government has drones!!

ItnStln wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
Are there any reasons why the US is the only country in the developed world where anyone has a real sense that they need to own a gun for protection?

In the unlikely event you're not trolling, I'll answer your question: " the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


If your going to quote the second amendment at least post the whole thing.

A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

There is no need for a well regulated militia when you have biggest military ever known.

There are also many attacks on the "well regulated" part as well. Whenever there is any discussion about a universal background check system to make sure people who shouldn't have guns can't get them. The NRA and many in congress lose their collective s*it.

I'm actually not a fan of the NRA so I do not care what they do. If you're going to quote the Second Amendment, why don't you post Justice Scalia's opinion on DC v Heller. But I guess that goes against your narrative. Here is the text of the Second Amendment as written “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” Justice Scalia, who wrote the opinion of the court on District of Columbia v. Heller in 2008 ruled that the Second Amendment is two parts: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,” and “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” Justice Scalia ruled that the second comma divided the Second Amendment into two parts and that part one informs part two and that we need gun rights because militias are necessary. Justice Scalia offered a rewrite to try and clear things up. Justice Scalia’s rewrite is “Because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” This is now the Supreme Court’s official legal interpretation of the Second Amendment. So let’s look at the Supreme Court’s ruling on the Second Amendment pertaining to gun rights. “The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” Let me reiterate the last part SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. The Constitution is a “living document” who’s true meaning is not fixed; and the courts have stated that it’s true meaning changes with the times and corresponding social climate. Perhaps we should start telling the gun grabbers who claim the Second Amendment only applies to muskets that the First Amendment only applies to printing presses and not the Internet, television, or radio. Another interesting aspect is the Fourteenth Amendment where it says “No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.” Therefor state gun laws that go against the Second Amendment are unconstitutional according to the Fourteenth Amendment.
 
johns624
Posts: 4577
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:24 pm

It appears that the parents may be on the run. They aren't responding to phone calls or texts from their lawyer. I guess sonny is on his own now.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 4286
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:26 pm

ItnStln wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
This. Simply put, all free white men between 18 & 45 are in an, essentially, unorganized militia subject to recall. It was changed to allow all men regardless of color. My understanding is Switzerland's reserve force was based off of this.


It is and I think the NRA would lose it if Swiss gun regulations were implemented in the US.

The amendment is meaningless in the face of the biggest military the world as ever know and paramilitary police forces as well.

There is no way that the 2nd amendment holds water today unless a significant portion law enforcement and the military defects to overthrow the US federal government with an organized militia. The military could squash an organized militia in a matter of hours with drones in the modern day.

It was great when it was just muskets as Jim Jeffries says in his bit about guns, but the current government has drones!!

ItnStln wrote:
In the unlikely event you're not trolling, I'll answer your question: " the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


If your going to quote the second amendment at least post the whole thing.

A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

There is no need for a well regulated militia when you have biggest military ever known.

There are also many attacks on the "well regulated" part as well. Whenever there is any discussion about a universal background check system to make sure people who shouldn't have guns can't get them. The NRA and many in congress lose their collective s*it.

I'm actually not a fan of the NRA so I do not care what they do. If you're going to quote the Second Amendment, why don't you post Justice Scalia's opinion on DC v Heller. But I guess that goes against your narrative. Here is the text of the Second Amendment as written “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” Justice Scalia, who wrote the opinion of the court on District of Columbia v. Heller in 2008 ruled that the Second Amendment is two parts: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,” and “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” Justice Scalia ruled that the second comma divided the Second Amendment into two parts and that part one informs part two and that we need gun rights because militias are necessary. Justice Scalia offered a rewrite to try and clear things up. Justice Scalia’s rewrite is “Because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” This is now the Supreme Court’s official legal interpretation of the Second Amendment. So let’s look at the Supreme Court’s ruling on the Second Amendment pertaining to gun rights. “The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” Let me reiterate the last part SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. The Constitution is a “living document” who’s true meaning is not fixed; and the courts have stated that it’s true meaning changes with the times and corresponding social climate. Perhaps we should start telling the gun grabbers who claim the Second Amendment only applies to muskets that the First Amendment only applies to printing presses and not the Internet, television, or radio. Another interesting aspect is the Fourteenth Amendment where it says “No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.” Therefor state gun laws that go against the Second Amendment are unconstitutional according to the Fourteenth Amendment.



I will concede that a this is an opinion of a very accomplished judge. I might not have agreed with all of his opinions but he was a decent man with many on both sides of the aisle respecting him and his legal mind. I am not an American and don't agree with this opinion because this ruling will continue to deter many states and the federal government from implement laws that will prevent people from getting guns who shouldn't have them. My opinion is that you need to pass a proficiency exam, have character references and a clean record to have a gun even for sport, plus very harsh penalties for gross negligence when it comes to guns (legally owned gun used in a criminal act like this one).

If congress tried to do what I suggest federally it would likely get shot down because of this ruling. It has to be federal because someone can easily go to a state with lax laws to bypass strict ones. Illinois, DC and California IIRC have strict laws but you can go to Indiana, Arizona, Nevada and Virginia, West Virginia to bypass them..

All of this is totally fine, but can someone be honest and admit that this occasional collateral damage of having this right is acceptable and its going to happen.
 
ItnStln
Posts: 338
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:57 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:

It is and I think the NRA would lose it if Swiss gun regulations were implemented in the US.

The amendment is meaningless in the face of the biggest military the world as ever know and paramilitary police forces as well.

There is no way that the 2nd amendment holds water today unless a significant portion law enforcement and the military defects to overthrow the US federal government with an organized militia. The military could squash an organized militia in a matter of hours with drones in the modern day.

It was great when it was just muskets as Jim Jeffries says in his bit about guns, but the current government has drones!!



If your going to quote the second amendment at least post the whole thing.

A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

There is no need for a well regulated militia when you have biggest military ever known.

There are also many attacks on the "well regulated" part as well. Whenever there is any discussion about a universal background check system to make sure people who shouldn't have guns can't get them. The NRA and many in congress lose their collective s*it.

I'm actually not a fan of the NRA so I do not care what they do. If you're going to quote the Second Amendment, why don't you post Justice Scalia's opinion on DC v Heller. But I guess that goes against your narrative. Here is the text of the Second Amendment as written “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” Justice Scalia, who wrote the opinion of the court on District of Columbia v. Heller in 2008 ruled that the Second Amendment is two parts: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,” and “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” Justice Scalia ruled that the second comma divided the Second Amendment into two parts and that part one informs part two and that we need gun rights because militias are necessary. Justice Scalia offered a rewrite to try and clear things up. Justice Scalia’s rewrite is “Because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” This is now the Supreme Court’s official legal interpretation of the Second Amendment. So let’s look at the Supreme Court’s ruling on the Second Amendment pertaining to gun rights. “The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” Let me reiterate the last part SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. The Constitution is a “living document” who’s true meaning is not fixed; and the courts have stated that it’s true meaning changes with the times and corresponding social climate. Perhaps we should start telling the gun grabbers who claim the Second Amendment only applies to muskets that the First Amendment only applies to printing presses and not the Internet, television, or radio. Another interesting aspect is the Fourteenth Amendment where it says “No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.” Therefor state gun laws that go against the Second Amendment are unconstitutional according to the Fourteenth Amendment.



I will concede that a this is an opinion of a very accomplished judge. I might not have agreed with all of his opinions but he was a decent man with many on both sides of the aisle respecting him and his legal mind. I am not an American and don't agree with this opinion because this ruling will continue to deter many states and the federal government from implement laws that will prevent people from getting guns who shouldn't have them. My opinion is that you need to pass a proficiency exam, have character references and a clean record to have a gun even for sport, plus very harsh penalties for gross negligence when it comes to guns (legally owned gun used in a criminal act like this one).

If congress tried to do what I suggest federally it would likely get shot down because of this ruling. It has to be federal because someone can easily go to a state with lax laws to bypass strict ones. Illinois, DC and California IIRC have strict laws but you can go to Indiana, Arizona, Nevada and Virginia, West Virginia to bypass them..

All of this is totally fine, but can someone be honest and admit that this occasional collateral damage of having this right is acceptable and its going to happen.

This is, in my opinion, the best opinion written by a Supreme Court Justice. I agree that people who shouldn't have guns shouldn't have them. However, how does one do that and not impact law abiding citizens? The fact is that you can't. Guns are just the tool, the weapon is the person with evil intent. Federally there is already a requirement to have a clean record. I am going from memory, but I believe it's no felonies, no domestic violence charges and no charges where the maximum penalty is over 2 years in jail. Again, I am going from memory on that, but some states are more strict. I do not disagree with harsh penalties for gross negligence, but realistically the percentage of legally owned guns used in a criminal act are very slim. Americans with a CCP are less likely to commit a crime than off duty cops, 11.5 per 100000 versus 102 per 100000. The rate per 100000 for the whole US population is 3813. Again, I am going from memory so I might be slightly off.

Your second paragraph describes a felony. Contrary to popular belief, you can't go to another state and buy a gun because it is a federal felony to sell guns across state lines. Here's how it legally plays out. Let's say I am in Nevada and see a gun I like at a shop. I ask them if they will ship to my FFL in Texas. If so, I reach out to my FFL in Texas and he sends a copy of his FFL to the person or shop in Nevada. At that time the person or shop in Nevada ships the gun with a shit ton of paperwork to my FFL in Texas. Once it's received I go to my FFL and at that point it is no different than me walking into the FFL and buying a gun. Again, we are talking legal sales here. Most states that I have looked at, including Indiana, after obama's false claim, do require a photo ID in order to conduct a "private transfer" which people falsely call the "gun show loophole." I've been to many gun shows, and the almost all of vendors there are actual FFL and gun shops which, again, makes it no different than walking into a gun store. Before it's brought up, I'll address the so called "Internet gun purchases" which really aren't. They work literally the same as I described above. I can't just go on Arms List, buy a gun, and have it shipped to my house. It works the same way as I described above. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and that needs to stop! It makes the anti-gun crowd look misinformed by the blatant lies they spread concerning gun purchases.
 
B717fan
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:32 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:04 pm

johns624 wrote:
It appears that the parents may be on the run. They aren't responding to phone calls or texts from their lawyer. I guess sonny is on his own now.


Both the US Marshals and the FBI are searching for them.
 
art
Posts: 4409
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:09 pm

B717fan wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It appears that the parents may be on the run. They aren't responding to phone calls or texts from their lawyer. I guess sonny is on his own now.


Both the US Marshals and the FBI are searching for them.

Jennifer Crumbley to son: "You have to learn not to get caught.” I hope she has not learnt not to get caught. Perhaps she believes she has learnt not to get caught.

How much worse does it make things for the parents legally when (sorry, if ever) they get caught?
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14757
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:20 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Here is more about what happened. Highlights a lot about why the parents got charged and why there was a meeting at school.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/oxford ... 60da93990b

Nov. 26: Ethan Crumbley's father, James Crumbley, purchased a gun with his son present.
On or about Nov. 26: Ethan Crumbley posted photos of a semi-automatic gun on social media with a caption: “Just got my new beauty today. SIG SAUER 9mm.”
On or about Nov. 27: Jennifer Crumbley, Ethan Crumbley's mother, made a social media post that read, “mom and son day testing out his new Christmas present.”
Nov. 29: A teacher at Oxford High School observed Ethan searching for ammunition on his phone and reported that information to school officials. His parents did not reply when the school attempted to contact them. Later, Jennifer Crumbley exchanged texts with Ethan stating, “LOL I’m not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught.”
Nov. 30: On the morning of the shooting, Ethan’s teacher came across a note that “alarmed her to the point that she took a picture of it on her cell phone.” The note contained “a drawing of a semiautomatic handgun pointing at the words ‘the thoughts won’t stop. help me.’" Also included in the note was a drawing of a bullet with “blood everywhere” written above it. Between the gun and the bullet is a drawing of a person who appears to have been shot twice and bleeding with a laughing emoji under it. The note also has “my life is useless” and “the world is dead” scrawled on it.
The parents were “immediately summoned to the school." A school counselor removed Ethan from class with his backpack and obtained the note, but the drawings of the gun, bloody figure and writings were all “altered.” At the meeting with school officials, his parents were shown the drawing and were told they had to submit their son to counseling within 48 hours. His parents did not ask the whereabouts of the gun and did not to inspect his backpack for the gun which he had with him, according to McDonald. His parents “resisted” the idea of taking Ethan out of school and left without him.


I couldn't imagine leaving without the kid at that point.



I'm a little baffled that the school let him back into class as well.


Seriously he should have been suspended immediately. Good Lord.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15935
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:32 pm

To use a great line from the movie 'The Fugitive' ;"Deputy Marshal Samuel Gerard: [briefing all the sheriffs, deputies, police officers, and law enforcement officials surrounding him] All right, listen up, ladies and gentlemen, our fugitive has been on the run for ninety minutes. Average foot speed over uneven ground, barring injuries, is 4 miles per hour. That gives us a radius of six miles. What I want from each and every one of you is a hard-target search of every gas station, residence, warehouse, farmhouse, hen house, outhouse and doghouse in that area. Checkpoints go up at fifteen miles. Your fugitive's name is Dr. Richard Kimble. Go get him.

That would be good advice for those searching for the parent - fugitives. I would also add any place where 2nd Amendment, militia, anti-government and American Nazi's and domestic terrorists hang out. This could get very ugly.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14757
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:36 pm

B717fan wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It appears that the parents may be on the run. They aren't responding to phone calls or texts from their lawyer. I guess sonny is on his own now.


Both the US Marshals and the FBI are searching for them.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/pa ... d=msedgntp

Wow
 
johns624
Posts: 4577
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:39 pm

The mom seems to be a real nutcase herself.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16858
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:55 pm

Instead of the usual ‘we couldn’t see this coming, he was our sweet boy’ these parents were like ‘we’re glad he was man enough to put idea to action’. :boggled: Sick as all hell - and a great reminder that license to breed would solve many social ills.
 
N626AA
Posts: 163
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:02 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:57 pm

johns624 wrote:
The mom seems to be a real nutcase herself.


Shooter boy didn't fall far from the tree. Just look at that mug. No soul in those eyes.
 
B717fan
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:32 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:30 pm

The attorneys for the parents are claiming that they didn't flee and that they're returning to turn themselves in soon.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16858
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:32 pm

B717fan wrote:
The attorneys for the parents are claiming that they didn't flee and that they're returning to turn themselves in soon.


Returning from....shopping? Ridiculous

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