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seb146
Posts: 24474
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:51 pm

johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Why are you so keen on the criminal having (and keeping) the upper hand?


Like we have now? We can't enforce laws already on the books because "legal" gun owning Americans scream about "they are taking our guns!" when, in reality, we want to stop these mass shootings. If all lives matter, firearm enthusiasts would want the same, no? Or are guns simply more important than life itself?
I don't know a single gunowner who doesn't think the school shooter and his parents shouldn't have the book thrown at them. I don't know why you keep equating legal gun owners with criminals who use weapons. We can enforce any laws we want to, we just don't. Remember the old "one with gun, gets you two" laws? They were always the first thing bargained away during plea agreements.


Because EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!! this happens, the same tired excuses come out for not enforcing laws already on the books.

Mass shootings in the United States happen much too often. We constantly say that current laws need to be enforced. The same reaction from the same "all lives matter" people is: why are you trying to take our rights away?"

And, yes, this time could be considered to be a straw purchase. One person purchasing a gun for someone who can not get one. The gun was purchased in the parents' name and given to the minor.
 
johns624
Posts: 5175
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:54 pm

seb146 wrote:
Because EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!! this happens, the same tired excuses come out for not enforcing laws already on the books.

Mass shootings in the United States happen much too often. We constantly say that current laws need to be enforced. The same reaction from the same "all lives matter" people is: why are you trying to take our rights away?"
Incorrect. There is nothing stopping current laws from being enforced. The problem is that, instead of enforcing current laws, the kneejerk reaction is to try to pass more laws. Once again, I'm getting sick of Trumpers like you and their "alternate facts".
 
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seb146
Posts: 24474
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:59 pm

johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Because EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!! this happens, the same tired excuses come out for not enforcing laws already on the books.

Mass shootings in the United States happen much too often. We constantly say that current laws need to be enforced. The same reaction from the same "all lives matter" people is: why are you trying to take our rights away?"
Incorrect. There is nothing stopping current laws from being enforced. The problem is that, instead of enforcing current laws, the kneejerk reaction is to try to pass more laws. Once again, I'm getting sick of Trumpers like you and their "alternate facts".


What "more laws" are being passed? If CURRENT LAWS had been enforced, shootings would go down. That is the "alternate fact". But, again, we can't because firearms enthusiasts whine and scream and cry that their rights are more important. All the while claiming that "all lives matter".

BTW, you gave me such a laugh today for whiplashing me from "unhinged liberal" to "trumper". This shows you have no idea what is going on.
 
johns624
Posts: 5175
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:03 pm

seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Because EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!! this happens, the same tired excuses come out for not enforcing laws already on the books.

Mass shootings in the United States happen much too often. We constantly say that current laws need to be enforced. The same reaction from the same "all lives matter" people is: why are you trying to take our rights away?"
Incorrect. There is nothing stopping current laws from being enforced. The problem is that, instead of enforcing current laws, the kneejerk reaction is to try to pass more laws. Once again, I'm getting sick of Trumpers like you and their "alternate facts".


What "more laws" are being passed? If CURRENT LAWS had been enforced, shootings would go down. That is the "alternate fact". But, again, we can't because firearms enthusiasts whine and scream and cry that their rights are more important. All the while claiming that "all lives matter".

BTW, you gave me such a laugh today for whiplashing me from "unhinged liberal" to "trumper". This shows you have no idea what is going on.
Where are people complaining about current laws being enforced? You're the only one that brings it up. I've never called you an "unhinged liberal". But now that you bring it up. I was merely showing that the lunatic fringe (TY, Red Ryder) on either side has more in common with each other than they'll admit.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 3040
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:30 pm

johns624 wrote:
I don't know why you keep equating legal gun owners with criminals who use weapons.


At a guess, because most people committing mass shootings were legal gun owners, or in possession of legally owned guns, right up until the point they became murderers?
 
TriJets
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:13 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:37 pm

B777LRF wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I don't know why you keep equating legal gun owners with criminals who use weapons.


At a guess, because most people committing mass shootings were legal gun owners, or in possession of legally owned guns, right up until the point they became murderers?


Depending on the definition, most "mass shootings" are gang-related and involve people who are not legally allowed to own firearms.
 
TriJets
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:13 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:38 pm

seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Because EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!! this happens, the same tired excuses come out for not enforcing laws already on the books.

Mass shootings in the United States happen much too often. We constantly say that current laws need to be enforced. The same reaction from the same "all lives matter" people is: why are you trying to take our rights away?"
Incorrect. There is nothing stopping current laws from being enforced. The problem is that, instead of enforcing current laws, the kneejerk reaction is to try to pass more laws. Once again, I'm getting sick of Trumpers like you and their "alternate facts".


What "more laws" are being passed? If CURRENT LAWS had been enforced, shootings would go down. That is the "alternate fact". But, again, we can't because firearms enthusiasts whine and scream and cry that their rights are more important. All the while claiming that "all lives matter".

BTW, you gave me such a laugh today for whiplashing me from "unhinged liberal" to "trumper". This shows you have no idea what is going on.


No one has a problem with current gun laws being enforced. The problem is that police are too afraid to go after illegal guns because they've been unfairly maligned and targeted for the last five plus years, so they are content just sitting back and doing nothing as opposed to actually going after criminals and being told they are horrible people for doing so.
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:01 pm

B777LRF wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I don't know why you keep equating legal gun owners with criminals who use weapons.


At a guess, because most people committing mass shootings were legal gun owners, or in possession of legally owned guns, right up until the point they became murderers?


Interesting statement. First, define "mass shooting" and then I'd love to see your data on their legal possession.
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:02 pm

TriJets wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I don't know why you keep equating legal gun owners with criminals who use weapons.


At a guess, because most people committing mass shootings were legal gun owners, or in possession of legally owned guns, right up until the point they became murderers?


Depending on the definition, most "mass shootings" are gang-related and involve people who are not legally allowed to own firearms.


There is no definition needed. "Mass shootings" are defined as three or more victims, and most have some nexus to other criminal activity.
 
Dogman
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:11 pm

B777LRF wrote:
getting into a knife-on-knife fight might be a problematic defence, depending on actual circumstances. Clubbing someone to death who comes through your window, and you get into a fight, is murder. Beating him moderately silly with said club, is something you’d probably get away with. Depends how molested you leave the guy. Shoot him and you’re down for murder, looking at 8-12 years.


Just out of curiosity, what country are you living in? As I mentioned before I live in Canada. Overall, I am OK with gun laws here. I like that people cannot walk the streets armed. In my opinion, it creates way too many more problems than it solves. I live in a city that has a pretty high crime rate by Canadian standards, but I never felt that I need to carry a gun. I own guns, but for target shooting only. I would never want to carry one with me. You lose your temper for some stupid thing and your life is ruined, along with someone else's life, and all the people in our families. It's just not worth it.
Saying that, your reasoning looks to me as a good example of how you can take a good idea and take it too far, when it becomes counterproductive and turns on itself. I am all for the people getting along, but when somebody broke into your house and advancing at you with a knife I don't think it's the right time to start. And your scenarios of a woman defending herself from a rapist is totally unrealistic.
I took a firearms safety course before getting my license, and I know that Canada does not have a Castle Law. You cannot shoot someone who refused to leave your backyard, but if somebody breaks into your house and threatening you with a knife then you can shoot them. If they turn around and run then you cannot shoot them. All this seems to be quite reasonable to me.
 
johns624
Posts: 5175
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:29 pm

Dogman wrote:
[
I took a firearms safety course before getting my license, and I know that Canada does not have a Castle Law. You cannot shoot someone who refused to leave your backyard, but if somebody breaks into your house and threatening you with a knife then you can shoot them. If they turn around and run then you cannot shoot them. All this seems to be quite reasonable to me.
This is the same as in most US states. You can only shoot someone if you or someone else is in immediate threat of death or great bodily harm. Castle Doctrine just gets rid of the need to retreat. It used to be that if you were in your own home and someone broke in, as long as you could run out the back door, you couldn't defend yourself.
 
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seb146
Posts: 24474
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:27 am

johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Incorrect. There is nothing stopping current laws from being enforced. The problem is that, instead of enforcing current laws, the kneejerk reaction is to try to pass more laws. Once again, I'm getting sick of Trumpers like you and their "alternate facts".


What "more laws" are being passed? If CURRENT LAWS had been enforced, shootings would go down. That is the "alternate fact". But, again, we can't because firearms enthusiasts whine and scream and cry that their rights are more important. All the while claiming that "all lives matter".

BTW, you gave me such a laugh today for whiplashing me from "unhinged liberal" to "trumper". This shows you have no idea what is going on.
Where are people complaining about current laws being enforced? You're the only one that brings it up. I've never called you an "unhinged liberal". But now that you bring it up. I was merely showing that the lunatic fringe (TY, Red Ryder) on either side has more in common with each other than they'll admit.


EVERY TIME a group of children are murdered in their school, the same debate comes up. We always hear the 2A people, the firearms enthusiasts, complaining "they takin' our gunz!" and "the last four words of 2A iz importanz!". Not just on this board but across social media and in real life. The same people who demand "every life is sacred" and "all lives matter". Which is AM radio , Fox, Newsmax, Daily Stormer, NYP, WaTimes, Brietbart, Shapiro, and the rest of main stream Republicans.
 
johns624
Posts: 5175
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:03 pm

seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

What "more laws" are being passed? If CURRENT LAWS had been enforced, shootings would go down. That is the "alternate fact". But, again, we can't because firearms enthusiasts whine and scream and cry that their rights are more important. All the while claiming that "all lives matter".

BTW, you gave me such a laugh today for whiplashing me from "unhinged liberal" to "trumper". This shows you have no idea what is going on.
Where are people complaining about current laws being enforced? You're the only one that brings it up. I've never called you an "unhinged liberal". But now that you bring it up. I was merely showing that the lunatic fringe (TY, Red Ryder) on either side has more in common with each other than they'll admit.


EVERY TIME a group of children are murdered in their school, the same debate comes up. We always hear the 2A people, the firearms enthusiasts, complaining "they takin' our gunz!" and "the last four words of 2A iz importanz!". Not just on this board but across social media and in real life. The same people who demand "every life is sacred" and "all lives matter". Which is AM radio , Fox, Newsmax, Daily Stormer, NYP, WaTimes, Brietbart, Shapiro, and the rest of main stream Republicans.
You keep repeating this without factual backup. It has nothing to do with enforcing the current laws, it has to do with a kneejerk reaction to passing new laws. Just like here in Michigan now. They want to introduce a bill banning bigger than 10 round magazines. It wouldn't have changed anything in Oxford, but why let a tragedy go to waste.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4503
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:51 pm

johns624 wrote:
it has to do with a kneejerk reaction to passing new laws.

It is impossible to propose legislation or changes to enforcement priorities, without complaints of it being a kneejerk reaction.

There are so many shootings, that there will always be a shooting for pro-2A people to claim it’s a kneejerk reaction to [insert latest shooting here].
 
bpatus297
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:57 pm

Dogman wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
getting into a knife-on-knife fight might be a problematic defence, depending on actual circumstances. Clubbing someone to death who comes through your window, and you get into a fight, is murder. Beating him moderately silly with said club, is something you’d probably get away with. Depends how molested you leave the guy. Shoot him and you’re down for murder, looking at 8-12 years.


Just out of curiosity, what country are you living in? As I mentioned before I live in Canada. Overall, I am OK with gun laws here. I like that people cannot walk the streets armed. In my opinion, it creates way too many more problems than it solves. I live in a city that has a pretty high crime rate by Canadian standards, but I never felt that I need to carry a gun. I own guns, but for target shooting only. I would never want to carry one with me. You lose your temper for some stupid thing and your life is ruined, along with someone else's life, and all the people in our families. It's just not worth it.
Saying that, your reasoning looks to me as a good example of how you can take a good idea and take it too far, when it becomes counterproductive and turns on itself. I am all for the people getting along, but when somebody broke into your house and advancing at you with a knife I don't think it's the right time to start. And your scenarios of a woman defending herself from a rapist is totally unrealistic.
I took a firearms safety course before getting my license, and I know that Canada does not have a Castle Law. You cannot shoot someone who refused to leave your backyard, but if somebody breaks into your house and threatening you with a knife then you can shoot them. If they turn around and run then you cannot shoot them. All this seems to be quite reasonable to me.


If you could lose your temper enough to cause you to shot someone there are multiple issues at hand. First, you probably shouldn't own a gun. Second, go seek help if your temper is that bad.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:00 pm

seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

What "more laws" are being passed? If CURRENT LAWS had been enforced, shootings would go down. That is the "alternate fact". But, again, we can't because firearms enthusiasts whine and scream and cry that their rights are more important. All the while claiming that "all lives matter".

BTW, you gave me such a laugh today for whiplashing me from "unhinged liberal" to "trumper". This shows you have no idea what is going on.
Where are people complaining about current laws being enforced? You're the only one that brings it up. I've never called you an "unhinged liberal". But now that you bring it up. I was merely showing that the lunatic fringe (TY, Red Ryder) on either side has more in common with each other than they'll admit.


EVERY TIME a group of children are murdered in their school, the same debate comes up. We always hear the 2A people, the firearms enthusiasts, complaining "they takin' our gunz!" and "the last four words of 2A iz importanz!". Not just on this board but across social media and in real life. The same people who demand "every life is sacred" and "all lives matter". Which is AM radio , Fox, Newsmax, Daily Stormer, NYP, WaTimes, Brietbart, Shapiro, and the rest of main stream Republicans.


This debate came up because the OP asked this question:

"I’m surprised this hasn’t been discussed yet. I know it’s a regular occurrence and all but I’m interested in the pro 2A contingents thoughts on this latest mass school shooting. Or it’s a wasted thread because absolutely nothing will be done about it."

No one hijacked a thread about sympathy and condolences for the families affected by the tragedy.
 
Dogman
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:55 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
If you could lose your temper enough to cause you to shot someone there are multiple issues at hand. First, you probably shouldn't own a gun. Second, go seek help if your temper is that bad.


Was this guy's temper that bad? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jordan_Davis . Or maybe he just had a bad day? It doesn't matter, his life is ruined, his family's life and the life of the boy's family is ruined too. Anyone can lose temper, including yourself. Indeed, your personal attack shows that it can happen to you rather easily.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:00 pm

Dogman wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
If you could lose your temper enough to cause you to shot someone there are multiple issues at hand. First, you probably shouldn't own a gun. Second, go seek help if your temper is that bad.


Was this guy's temper that bad? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jordan_Davis . Or maybe he just had a bad day? It doesn't matter, his life is ruined, his family's life and the life of the boy's family is ruined too. Anyone can lose temper, including yourself. Indeed, your personal attack shows that it can happen to you rather easily.


Saying you need to seek mental heath help since you stated you lose you temper bad enough to shot someone is hardly losing my temper.
 
Dogman
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:30 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Dogman wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
If you could lose your temper enough to cause you to shot someone there are multiple issues at hand. First, you probably shouldn't own a gun. Second, go seek help if your temper is that bad.


Was this guy's temper that bad? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jordan_Davis . Or maybe he just had a bad day? It doesn't matter, his life is ruined, his family's life and the life of the boy's family is ruined too. Anyone can lose temper, including yourself. Indeed, your personal attack shows that it can happen to you rather easily.


Saying you need to seek mental heath help since you stated you lose you temper bad enough to shot someone is hardly losing my temper.


Actually, I was referring not to myself, but to the incident to which I provided the link. But if you don't think that this can happen to virtually anyone then we had very different life experiences.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 15002
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:35 pm

Dogman wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
If you could lose your temper enough to cause you to shot someone there are multiple issues at hand. First, you probably shouldn't own a gun. Second, go seek help if your temper is that bad.


Was this guy's temper that bad? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jordan_Davis . Or maybe he just had a bad day? It doesn't matter, his life is ruined, his family's life and the life of the boy's family is ruined too. Anyone can lose temper, including yourself. Indeed, your personal attack shows that it can happen to you rather easily.


I think you are a bit off here. That guy didn't lose his temper, IMO he did feel he was about to be attacked by Jordan Davis. Was he quick to pull the trigger? Of course but it wasn't a case of someone having an anger issue.
 
johns624
Posts: 5175
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:51 pm

petertenthije wrote:
johns624 wrote:
it has to do with a kneejerk reaction to passing new laws.

It is impossible to propose legislation or changes to enforcement priorities, without complaints of it being a kneejerk reaction.

There are so many shootings, that there will always be a shooting for pro-2A people to claim it’s a kneejerk reaction to [insert latest shooting here].
It's a "kneejerk" reaction when the restrictions that they are trying to pass into law would've had no effect on the crime that they are doing it in response to.
A perfect example is what Canada did after the Nova Scotia killings. Although the perpetrator didn't have a license to own firearms and had smuggled them across the border, Trudeau proceeded to make the restricted firearms illegal. This impacted thousands of Canadian gun owners but would've had absolutely no bearing or effect on the commission of the murders. Therefore, he was just using the public outrage over the crimes to make something illegal, just because he wanted. RCMP was all too eager to help him because it deflected blame away from him. They knew he had a car painted to look like theirs and had gotten warnings about his behavior. They also didn't send out a wide alert when they knew he was on a killing spree.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Nova ... erpetrator
 
Dogman
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:12 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Dogman wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
If you could lose your temper enough to cause you to shot someone there are multiple issues at hand. First, you probably shouldn't own a gun. Second, go seek help if your temper is that bad.


Was this guy's temper that bad? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jordan_Davis . Or maybe he just had a bad day? It doesn't matter, his life is ruined, his family's life and the life of the boy's family is ruined too. Anyone can lose temper, including yourself. Indeed, your personal attack shows that it can happen to you rather easily.


I think you are a bit off here. That guy didn't lose his temper, IMO he did feel he was about to be attacked by Jordan Davis. Was he quick to pull the trigger? Of course but it wasn't a case of someone having an anger issue.


Oh, come on. Of course he said that he was fearing for his life. Almost every shooter says that. I am surprised that the cop, who offloaded a magazine in the back of the guy who was driving away in a wheelchair, did not say that he was fearing for his life.
Michael Dunn started shooting when the occupants of the SUV were inside and did not attempt to exit, and continued shooting while the SUV was driving away. Before that he was complaining about the loud music and a witness heard him saying "No, you're not gonna talk to me that way". A classic loss of temper.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:14 pm

Dogman wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Dogman wrote:

Was this guy's temper that bad? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jordan_Davis . Or maybe he just had a bad day? It doesn't matter, his life is ruined, his family's life and the life of the boy's family is ruined too. Anyone can lose temper, including yourself. Indeed, your personal attack shows that it can happen to you rather easily.


Saying you need to seek mental heath help since you stated you lose you temper bad enough to shot someone is hardly losing my temper.


Actually, I was referring not to myself, but to the incident to which I provided the link. But if you don't think that this can happen to virtually anyone then we had very different life experiences.


My point still stands on that situation, regardless of if its you or not.
 
Dogman
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:17 pm

johns624 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
johns624 wrote:
it has to do with a kneejerk reaction to passing new laws.

It is impossible to propose legislation or changes to enforcement priorities, without complaints of it being a kneejerk reaction.

A perfect example is what Canada did after the Nova Scotia killings. Although the perpetrator didn't have a license to own firearms and had smuggled them across the border, Trudeau proceeded to make the restricted firearms illegal.


Not all restricted firearms. Handguns are restricted, and I still have mine. Nobody is taking them away.
 
Dogman
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:20 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Dogman wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Saying you need to seek mental heath help since you stated you lose you temper bad enough to shot someone is hardly losing my temper.


Actually, I was referring not to myself, but to the incident to which I provided the link. But if you don't think that this can happen to virtually anyone then we had very different life experiences.


My point still stands on that situation, regardless of if its you or not.


Well, then I guess the government should start checking all the clientele of all the shrinks in the country and decide if they should own the firearms.
 
johns624
Posts: 5175
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:31 pm

Dogman wrote:
johns624 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
It is impossible to propose legislation or changes to enforcement priorities, without complaints of it being a kneejerk reaction.

A perfect example is what Canada did after the Nova Scotia killings. Although the perpetrator didn't have a license to own firearms and had smuggled them across the border, Trudeau proceeded to make the restricted firearms illegal.


Not all restricted firearms. Handguns are restricted, and I still have mine. Nobody is taking them away.
Yet. My point was that making all the rifles illegal wouldn't have stopped the shootings.
PS--I have heard that they got rid of some of the places that you could take your handgun without permission from the CFO. You can no longer take it to a gunsmith for repair without permission. The only permissible place is to and from a shooting range. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I get most of my Canadian firearms information from Runkel of the Bailey on Youtube.
 
Dogman
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:46 pm

johns624 wrote:
Dogman wrote:
johns624 wrote:


Not all restricted firearms. Handguns are restricted, and I still have mine. Nobody is taking them away.
Yet. My point was that making all the rifles illegal wouldn't have stopped the shootings.


Not all the rifles have been made illegal. There is a list of the models of the firearms that have been reclassified as prohibited. They are mostly AR15 and its clones, and other semi-automatic rifles, including the models that were used in the previous mass shootings in Canada. Hunting rifles are still classified as not restricted.
As to your point, I don't think that anything can eliminate 100% of mass shootings, but sensible gun laws can minimize their number.

P.S. They did change the law, to what it used to be. When I just got my license I only could take my guns to any shooting range in the province. Then, for a few years I could also take them to a gun show, a repair shop, and a retail shop if I wanted to sell them. Now it is back to how it was before. I am not happy about it, but it does not seriously restricts me. Other people, especially who sell they stuff on gun shows will be seriously inconvenienced.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:00 pm

Dogman wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Dogman wrote:

Not all restricted firearms. Handguns are restricted, and I still have mine. Nobody is taking them away.
Yet. My point was that making all the rifles illegal wouldn't have stopped the shootings.


Not all the rifles have been made illegal. There is a list of the models of the firearms that have been reclassified as prohibited. They are mostly AR15 and its clones, and other semi-automatic rifles, including the models that were used in the previous mass shootings in Canada. Hunting rifles are still classified as not restricted.
As to your point, I don't think that anything can eliminate 100% of mass shootings, but sensible gun laws can minimize their number.

P.S. They did change the law, to what it used to be. When I just got my license I only could take my guns to any shooting range in the province. Then, for a few years I could also take them to a gun show, a repair shop, and a retail shop if I wanted to sell them. Now it is back to how it was before. I am not happy about it, but it does not seriously restricts me. Other people, especially who sell they stuff on gun shows will be seriously inconvenienced.


Your idea of restricted and mine are vastly different. I consider only being able to take your gun to the range as being seriously restricted.
 
johns624
Posts: 5175
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:10 pm

Dogman wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Dogman wrote:

Not all restricted firearms. Handguns are restricted, and I still have mine. Nobody is taking them away.
Yet. My point was that making all the rifles illegal wouldn't have stopped the shootings.


Not all the rifles have been made illegal. There is a list of the models of the firearms that have been reclassified as prohibited. They are mostly AR15 and its clones, and other semi-automatic rifles, including the models that were used in the previous mass shootings in Canada. Hunting rifles are still classified as not restricted.
As to your point, I don't think that anything can eliminate 100% of mass shootings, but sensible gun laws can minimize their number.

P.S. They did change the law, to what it used to be. When I just got my license I only could take my guns to any shooting range in the province. Then, for a few years I could also take them to a gun show, a repair shop, and a retail shop if I wanted to sell them. Now it is back to how it was before. I am not happy about it, but it does not seriously restricts me. Other people, especially who sell they stuff on gun shows will be seriously inconvenienced.
You're missing the point. I know it's "assault rifles" that were criminalized. My point is the government is doing it in response to the Nova Scotia killings. Yet, it has nothing to do with the Nova Scotia killings because the guns were smuggled in illegally by someone who couldn't own them. It's kind of like A causes B so we're going to outlaw C. Death by a thousand cuts. My wife and I were semi-seriously considering moving (at least part-time) to Canada (Amherstburg?) a few years ago. I could handle Canadian gun laws until the last few years. The longer Trudeau is in charge, and it looks like he will be for quite a while, the more restrictive things will get.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 15002
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:24 pm

Dogman wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Dogman wrote:

Was this guy's temper that bad? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jordan_Davis . Or maybe he just had a bad day? It doesn't matter, his life is ruined, his family's life and the life of the boy's family is ruined too. Anyone can lose temper, including yourself. Indeed, your personal attack shows that it can happen to you rather easily.


I think you are a bit off here. That guy didn't lose his temper, IMO he did feel he was about to be attacked by Jordan Davis. Was he quick to pull the trigger? Of course but it wasn't a case of someone having an anger issue.


Oh, come on. Of course he said that he was fearing for his life. Almost every shooter says that. I am surprised that the cop, who offloaded a magazine in the back of the guy who was driving away in a wheelchair, did not say that he was fearing for his life.
Michael Dunn started shooting when the occupants of the SUV were inside and did not attempt to exit, and continued shooting while the SUV was driving away. Before that he was complaining about the loud music and a witness heard him saying "No, you're not gonna talk to me that way". A classic loss of temper.


Maybe you could have included what Jordan Davis said to make him say they weren't going to talk to him that way. I am not defending Dunn or the Tuscon Cop. They jumped the gun (pardon the pun) but to tie their shootings to this one is totally ridiculous.
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:03 pm

Dogman wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Shooting someone who’s trying to rob you with a knife is just that. Stabbing someone who’s offering a bare knuckles fight is just that. However, punching someone who’s trying to rape you hard in the gonads, is perfectly legal.


I am not sure that you are right about that. I agree that in many countries it is illegal to use a disproportional force to defend yourself. It certainly is here, in Canada. But there is no way you can be 100% sure that if someone broke into your house with a knife that he will only rob you. Same with rape. I do not know what exactly the law says, but I will not take your word for this, unless you are a lawyer and familiar with criminal law of all the countries that you are talking about.


He is not, and B777LRF is making things up, even about the US.

In the US, the legal standard is different in jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but in most cases, any death at the hands of another is legally considered a homicide. The legal standard becomes if the homicide in question by either the hands of the police or a common citizen is "justifiable" or other mitigating factors are at play. Additionally the law usually differentiates between degrees of murder (wanton intentional killing) and manslaughter (usually some form of negligent action or mutual combat) though again, this varies from state to state.

At the point the determination of homicide has occurred, there are then a variety of defenses to homicide that usually stem from a common law standard of reasonableness. Now, various places will then codify more specifically the idea of reasonableness. For example, what many state level "castle laws" do is say that the forced entry into ones home is a legal standard that this person wishes some harm against you. Another reasonableness standard is that of disproportionate force, or is the person facing threat while representing no level of danger i.e. elderly, obviously injured/disabled, outnumbered, small female/large male, no brandished weapon, etc.

So, the standard for the use of deadly force (itself a term with multiple definitions in the US) is usually the articulatable and reasonable fear of death or grave bodily injury (strikes to the head and attempts to disarm a person, for example have risen to this standard) or to stop a rape, including of a third party or arson of an occupied dwelling (again, even as a third party) in process to stop the imminent threat.
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:07 pm

Dogman wrote:
I took a firearms safety course before getting my license, and I know that Canada does not have a Castle Law. You cannot shoot someone who refused to leave your backyard, but if somebody breaks into your house and threatening you with a knife then you can shoot them. If they turn around and run then you cannot shoot them. All this seems to be quite reasonable to me.


What you would find Dogman is the situation that posit is in fact the established case law for the majority of the US.

A person who refuses to leave would be simple trespass in most places, and absent any threat, not a justification for deadly force.

A person who commits armed robbery is a different kettle of fish, and depending on the immediacy of the threat, certainly a candidate submission for deadly force. Should you yell "I have a gun! Leave my property now!" and the robber begins to retrograde, the immediacy would significantly diminish.
 
Dogman
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:47 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Dogman wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Yet. My point was that making all the rifles illegal wouldn't have stopped the shootings.


Not all the rifles have been made illegal. There is a list of the models of the firearms that have been reclassified as prohibited. They are mostly AR15 and its clones, and other semi-automatic rifles, including the models that were used in the previous mass shootings in Canada. Hunting rifles are still classified as not restricted.
As to your point, I don't think that anything can eliminate 100% of mass shootings, but sensible gun laws can minimize their number.

P.S. They did change the law, to what it used to be. When I just got my license I only could take my guns to any shooting range in the province. Then, for a few years I could also take them to a gun show, a repair shop, and a retail shop if I wanted to sell them. Now it is back to how it was before. I am not happy about it, but it does not seriously restricts me. Other people, especially who sell they stuff on gun shows will be seriously inconvenienced.


Your idea of restricted and mine are vastly different. I consider only being able to take your gun to the range as being seriously restricted.


Obviously.
 
Dogman
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:04 pm

johns624 wrote:
You're missing the point. I know it's "assault rifles" that were criminalized. My point is the government is doing it in response to the Nova Scotia killings. Yet, it has nothing to do with the Nova Scotia killings because the guns were smuggled in illegally by someone who couldn't own them. It's kind of like A causes B so we're going to outlaw C. Death by a thousand cuts. My wife and I were semi-seriously considering moving (at least part-time) to Canada (Amherstburg?) a few years ago. I could handle Canadian gun laws until the last few years. The longer Trudeau is in charge, and it looks like he will be for quite a while, the more restrictive things will get.


I think that the government reasoning was that these firearms were judged to be too dangerous to have around. The ones used for Nova Scotia killings were smuggled over the border, but it was decided that even the legally bought semi-automatic rifles can be used for the next mass killings, either by the owner who's roof started leaking or stolen from the owner. Thoughts and prayers (a.k.a. doing nothing) would not be forgiven at the ballot box. There is a vocal minority who is not happy with this decision, but the majority is either approves or does not care.
I also not a big fan of Trudeau, but for different reasons than yours. I like target shooting, but overall guns are not that important to me. The new law also allows the cities to make their own gun laws. We are considering moving closer to our son's family. The city where he lives banned handguns but that would not stop us from moving there if we have an opportunity.
 
Dogman
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:15 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Dogman wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

I think you are a bit off here. That guy didn't lose his temper, IMO he did feel he was about to be attacked by Jordan Davis. Was he quick to pull the trigger? Of course but it wasn't a case of someone having an anger issue.


Oh, come on. Of course he said that he was fearing for his life. Almost every shooter says that. I am surprised that the cop, who offloaded a magazine in the back of the guy who was driving away in a wheelchair, did not say that he was fearing for his life.
Michael Dunn started shooting when the occupants of the SUV were inside and did not attempt to exit, and continued shooting while the SUV was driving away. Before that he was complaining about the loud music and a witness heard him saying "No, you're not gonna talk to me that way". A classic loss of temper.


Maybe you could have included what Jordan Davis said to make him say they weren't going to talk to him that way. I am not defending Dunn or the Tuscon Cop. They jumped the gun (pardon the pun) but to tie their shootings to this one is totally ridiculous.


I am not tying them together, where did you get that? I was responding to a totally different statement. As for what Jordan Davis said, I am not sure what are you trying to say. it could be that his words sent Michael Dunn over the edge, but that's supporting my argument. I can bet you anything that Michael Dunn wishes now that he did not have a gun with him on that day.
 
CaptHadley
Topic Author
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:36 pm

Re: Hey, another mass school shooting.

Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:07 am

[quote="CaptHadley"]Ya gotta just love the republican party.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/boebert ... 3347/quote]

Post edited with good link.

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