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johns624
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:16 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Grosse Ile?
Nope, much bigger and closer--Livonia.


Nice area. I lived in the D for about 9 years, its a really strange place with crime where it can be rampant on one side of the street, but not the other.
I used to work with a guy who claimed that he grew up in the "bad area" of Grosse Ile. Seeing as how I grew up in the Plymouth Rd-Schaefer area of Detroit, I laughed at him.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:18 pm

johns624 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Nope, much bigger and closer--Livonia.


Nice area. I lived in the D for about 9 years, its a really strange place with crime where it can be rampant on one side of the street, but not the other.
I used to work with a guy who claimed that he grew up in the "bad area" of Grosse Ile. Seeing as how I grew up in the Plymouth Rd-Schaefer area of Detroit, I laughed at him.



HAHAHHAHAHA, the bad part of GI. Now that is funny.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:38 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Pretty brazen case of police misconduct here - a shoplifting suspect in a scooter was fatally shot nine times in the back while his back was turned to the officer and was attempting to enter a Lowe’s. The suspect had apparently brandished a knife when confronted earlier by an employee.

The cop’s attorney is claiming he had ‘no non-lethal options’ - against a guy in a wheelchair. Really?

https://amp.azcentral.com/amp/8815159002

All this over a toolbox. The suspect lost his life for stealing one item, and the cop lost his job for excessive force.



I'm not sympathetic. Your thread title left out the fact that the suspect was previously seen brandishing a knife previously in an altercation with an employee. Brandishing a deadly weapon while shoplifting elevates the crime to aggravated robbery or armed robbery.
 
johns624
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:43 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Pretty brazen case of police misconduct here - a shoplifting suspect in a scooter was fatally shot nine times in the back while his back was turned to the officer and was attempting to enter a Lowe’s. The suspect had apparently brandished a knife when confronted earlier by an employee.

The cop’s attorney is claiming he had ‘no non-lethal options’ - against a guy in a wheelchair. Really?

https://amp.azcentral.com/amp/8815159002

All this over a toolbox. The suspect lost his life for stealing one item, and the cop lost his job for excessive force.



I'm not sympathetic. Your thread title left out the fact that the suspect was previously seen brandishing a knife previously in an altercation with an employee. Brandishing a deadly weapon while shoplifting elevates the crime to aggravated robbery or armed robbery.
There was still nobody in imminent danger. The officer also had other weapons that he could've used.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:53 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Pretty brazen case of police misconduct here - a shoplifting suspect in a scooter was fatally shot nine times in the back while his back was turned to the officer and was attempting to enter a Lowe’s. The suspect had apparently brandished a knife when confronted earlier by an employee.

The cop’s attorney is claiming he had ‘no non-lethal options’ - against a guy in a wheelchair. Really?

https://amp.azcentral.com/amp/8815159002

All this over a toolbox. The suspect lost his life for stealing one item, and the cop lost his job for excessive force.



I'm not sympathetic. Your thread title left out the fact that the suspect was previously seen brandishing a knife previously in an altercation with an employee. Brandishing a deadly weapon while shoplifting elevates the crime to aggravated robbery or armed robbery.


From my understanding he shoplifted first and then brandished the knife when confronted by an employee who followed him to the parking lot. That would not be armed robbery under AZ law.

At any rate from witness statements it now seems the perp may have been attempting suicide by cop.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:48 am

Aaron747 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Pretty brazen case of police misconduct here - a shoplifting suspect in a scooter was fatally shot nine times in the back while his back was turned to the officer and was attempting to enter a Lowe’s. The suspect had apparently brandished a knife when confronted earlier by an employee.

The cop’s attorney is claiming he had ‘no non-lethal options’ - against a guy in a wheelchair. Really?

https://amp.azcentral.com/amp/8815159002

All this over a toolbox. The suspect lost his life for stealing one item, and the cop lost his job for excessive force.



I'm not sympathetic. Your thread title left out the fact that the suspect was previously seen brandishing a knife previously in an altercation with an employee. Brandishing a deadly weapon while shoplifting elevates the crime to aggravated robbery or armed robbery.


From my understanding he shoplifted first and then brandished the knife when confronted by an employee who followed him to the parking lot. That would not be armed robbery under AZ law.

At any rate from witness statements it now seems the perp may have been attempting suicide by cop.


I was on a jury in Texas that found a 20 year old 8 month pregnant woman (at the time of the incident) guilty of aggravated robbery when after being detained for shoplifting along with her 2 year old daughter, she bolted from a back room at a Walmart when left unattended. She ran to the car with her daughter, got in her car, and backed out of the parking space.

When she backed out, she was in such a hurry that she left the door open. The door plowed over the Walmart manager, a saleswoman in her 50's, and a 25 year old male electronics salesman. The woman then turned her car to head out of the parking lot and headed straight towards the saleswoman. The 25 year old salesman saw that the tire was traveling straight for the saleswoman's head. He grabbed her hand and began puling her out of the way. but the car ran over her pelvis.

The jury determined that the car was a deadly weapon and convicted her of 3 counts of aggravated robbery rather than misdemeanor shoplifting. We also found her guilty of child endangernent for dropping her daughter while running to the car. It took us just 15 minutes to convict her on all 4 of those counts. Actually we would have convicted her on a second child endangernent charge for the son she was 8 months pregnant with had that been charged by the grand jury.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:20 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:


I'm not sympathetic. Your thread title left out the fact that the suspect was previously seen brandishing a knife previously in an altercation with an employee. Brandishing a deadly weapon while shoplifting elevates the crime to aggravated robbery or armed robbery.


From my understanding he shoplifted first and then brandished the knife when confronted by an employee who followed him to the parking lot. That would not be armed robbery under AZ law.

At any rate from witness statements it now seems the perp may have been attempting suicide by cop.


I was on a jury in Texas that found a 20 year old 8 month pregnant woman (at the time of the incident) guilty of aggravated robbery when after being detained for shoplifting along with her 2 year old daughter, she bolted from a back room at a Walmart when left unattended. She ran to the car with her daughter, got in her car, and backed out of the parking space.

When she backed out, she was in such a hurry that she left the door open. The door plowed over the Walmart manager, a saleswoman in her 50's, and a 25 year old male electronics salesman. The woman then turned her car to head out of the parking lot and headed straight towards the saleswoman. The 25 year old salesman saw that the tire was traveling straight for the saleswoman's head. He grabbed her hand and began puling her out of the way. but the car ran over her pelvis.

The jury determined that the car was a deadly weapon and convicted her of 3 counts of aggravated robbery rather than misdemeanor shoplifting. We also found her guilty of child endangernent for dropping her daughter while running to the car. It took us just 15 minutes to convict her on all 4 of those counts. Actually we would have convicted her on a second child endangernent charge for the son she was 8 months pregnant with had that been charged by the grand jury.


I agree with all of those findings - they just have zero logical nexus to this particular case in Tucson. And on second thought aggravated robbery didn't go far enough - she attempted murder with her vehicle.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:30 pm

johns624 wrote:
There was still nobody in imminent danger. The officer also had other weapons that he could've used.


My impression from talking to locals is that this isn't the case. The mayor and chief of police have truncated less-than-lethal options available to patrol officers to avoid the optics of a violent police encounter.

Likely I think the final disposition will be that the shooting was likely initially justified, but the anchor shot at the end was not.

What that cop really needed was one of those long tree limb trimmer do-dads but he didn't get into the Big Box store in time.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:34 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:

I was on a jury in Texas that found a 20 year old 8 month pregnant woman (at the time of the incident) guilty of aggravated robbery when after being detained for shoplifting along with her 2 year old daughter, she bolted from a back room at a Walmart when left unattended. She ran to the car with her daughter, got in her car, and backed out of the parking space.

When she backed out, she was in such a hurry that she left the door open. The door plowed over the Walmart manager, a saleswoman in her 50's, and a 25 year old male electronics salesman. The woman then turned her car to head out of the parking lot and headed straight towards the saleswoman. The 25 year old salesman saw that the tire was traveling straight for the saleswoman's head. He grabbed her hand and began puling her out of the way. but the car ran over her pelvis.

The jury determined that the car was a deadly weapon and convicted her of 3 counts of aggravated robbery rather than misdemeanor shoplifting. We also found her guilty of child endangernent for dropping her daughter while running to the car. It took us just 15 minutes to convict her on all 4 of those counts. Actually we would have convicted her on a second child endangernent charge for the son she was 8 months pregnant with had that been charged by the grand jury.


Honestly, my opinion is that she was grossly undercharged for agg robbery versus 3 counts of attempted homicide.

This undercharging is endemic, and often is used to set up sob stories like the "incarceration of first time/non-violent offenders." Nearly never does the whole "not the first time/second time/third time charged/non-violent but undercharged and certainly in support of some other large criminal conspiracy" part make it to press.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:38 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:

I was on a jury in Texas that found a 20 year old 8 month pregnant woman (at the time of the incident) guilty of aggravated robbery when after being detained for shoplifting along with her 2 year old daughter, she bolted from a back room at a Walmart when left unattended. She ran to the car with her daughter, got in her car, and backed out of the parking space.

When she backed out, she was in such a hurry that she left the door open. The door plowed over the Walmart manager, a saleswoman in her 50's, and a 25 year old male electronics salesman. The woman then turned her car to head out of the parking lot and headed straight towards the saleswoman. The 25 year old salesman saw that the tire was traveling straight for the saleswoman's head. He grabbed her hand and began puling her out of the way. but the car ran over her pelvis.

The jury determined that the car was a deadly weapon and convicted her of 3 counts of aggravated robbery rather than misdemeanor shoplifting. We also found her guilty of child endangernent for dropping her daughter while running to the car. It took us just 15 minutes to convict her on all 4 of those counts. Actually we would have convicted her on a second child endangernent charge for the son she was 8 months pregnant with had that been charged by the grand jury.


Honestly, my opinion is that she was grossly undercharged for agg robbery versus 3 counts of attempted homicide.

This undercharging is endemic, and often is used to set up sob stories like the "incarceration of first time/non-violent offenders." Nearly never does the whole "not the first time/second time/third time charged/non-violent but undercharged and certainly in support of some other large criminal conspiracy" part make it to press.


Most likely it was the fact taht attempted homicide is much harder to prove. The armed robbery and assault were much easier to prove.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:49 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:

I was on a jury in Texas that found a 20 year old 8 month pregnant woman (at the time of the incident) guilty of aggravated robbery when after being detained for shoplifting along with her 2 year old daughter, she bolted from a back room at a Walmart when left unattended. She ran to the car with her daughter, got in her car, and backed out of the parking space.

When she backed out, she was in such a hurry that she left the door open. The door plowed over the Walmart manager, a saleswoman in her 50's, and a 25 year old male electronics salesman. The woman then turned her car to head out of the parking lot and headed straight towards the saleswoman. The 25 year old salesman saw that the tire was traveling straight for the saleswoman's head. He grabbed her hand and began puling her out of the way. but the car ran over her pelvis.

The jury determined that the car was a deadly weapon and convicted her of 3 counts of aggravated robbery rather than misdemeanor shoplifting. We also found her guilty of child endangernent for dropping her daughter while running to the car. It took us just 15 minutes to convict her on all 4 of those counts. Actually we would have convicted her on a second child endangernent charge for the son she was 8 months pregnant with had that been charged by the grand jury.


Honestly, my opinion is that she was grossly undercharged for agg robbery versus 3 counts of attempted homicide.

This undercharging is endemic, and often is used to set up sob stories like the "incarceration of first time/non-violent offenders." Nearly never does the whole "not the first time/second time/third time charged/non-violent but undercharged and certainly in support of some other large criminal conspiracy" part make it to press.


Most likely it was the fact taht attempted homicide is much harder to prove. The armed robbery and assault were much easier to prove.


There are lots of ways to exit a parking lot - taking the path with all the employees in it made her intentions pretty clear, no?
 
johns624
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:48 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
johns624 wrote:
There was still nobody in imminent danger. The officer also had other weapons that he could've used.


My impression from talking to locals is that this isn't the case. The mayor and chief of police have truncated less-than-lethal options available to patrol officers to avoid the optics of a violent police encounter.

Likely I think the final disposition will be that the shooting was likely initially justified, but the anchor shot at the end was not.

What that cop really needed was one of those long tree limb trimmer do-dads but he didn't get into the Big Box store in time.
Or, he could've moved around to the side or front and used his taser. It's not like the scooter was moving so fast that he couldn't change his position, at least I hope not.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:45 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:

Honestly, my opinion is that she was grossly undercharged for agg robbery versus 3 counts of attempted homicide.

This undercharging is endemic, and often is used to set up sob stories like the "incarceration of first time/non-violent offenders." Nearly never does the whole "not the first time/second time/third time charged/non-violent but undercharged and certainly in support of some other large criminal conspiracy" part make it to press.


Most likely it was the fact taht attempted homicide is much harder to prove. The armed robbery and assault were much easier to prove.


There are lots of ways to exit a parking lot - taking the path with all the employees in it made her intentions pretty clear, no?


Not from a legal perspective. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is hard to prove, especially with intentions. Aggravated assault carries some pretty hefty time and is the appropriate charge.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:18 am

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:

Honestly, my opinion is that she was grossly undercharged for agg robbery versus 3 counts of attempted homicide.

This undercharging is endemic, and often is used to set up sob stories like the "incarceration of first time/non-violent offenders." Nearly never does the whole "not the first time/second time/third time charged/non-violent but undercharged and certainly in support of some other large criminal conspiracy" part make it to press.


Most likely it was the fact taht attempted homicide is much harder to prove. The armed robbery and assault were much easier to prove.


There are lots of ways to exit a parking lot - taking the path with all the employees in it made her intentions pretty clear, no?


I don't think she was paying attention. All she could think about was getting out of there. Also, I think this woman has used her looks to get out of consequences of her actions for most of her life. My thinking is that she turned down a plea bargain, because the DA wanted a confession to a felony. The defense in the trial wanted at most a conviction for misdemeanor shop lifting. The jury wanted nothing of that. Once the guilt portion of the trial was decided, we went to the penalty phase. The defense attorney kept saying that if we awarded 10 years or less, she would be eligible for a probated sentence. There was no way in Hell we wanted her to get off without a prison sentence. We ended up compromising on an 11 year sentence for the first count (due to the seriousness of her injuries), 10 years for the second count, 5 years for the third count, and 2 years (the maximum) on the child endangerment count.
 
Redd
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:28 am

CitizenJustin wrote:
Redd wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:



I subscribe to a subreddit called r/dataisbeautiful. It’s a collection of maps and general data concerning all types of topics. A recent post dealt with crime in America and many cities in the top 20 most dangerous places are solidly Republican.


Yeah, but the problem with that is that it's just not true. Top 10 most dangerous cities in the USA for murder and non-negligent manslaughter: (Murders/100k)
1. St. Louis
2. Baltimore
3. Detroit
4. New Orleans
5. Baton Rouge
6. Kansas City
7. Cleveland
8. Memphis
9. Newark
10. Chicago

If you choose to look at assaults, first 10 cities are also blue

Each of those cities is blue, or Very blue, as per last election.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... rime_rates



The safest cities also happen to be solidly blue lol. Cities will always have the most crime no matter where you are. More people = more crime. This is the same for any city around the world. It has nothing to do with being a Democrat. Cities are more dangerous than rural areas and it’s been that way since the beginning of time.


Can I take your word for it? Up above, you said that the most dangerous cities are red, and it turns out that the top 10 most dangerous are all BLUE, so you either purposely stated false information or didn't even bother to check... I didn't even check the next 10, but I'm willing to bet the next 10 would be mostly, if not all blue as well.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:06 pm

Redd wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
Redd wrote:

Yeah, but the problem with that is that it's just not true. Top 10 most dangerous cities in the USA for murder and non-negligent manslaughter: (Murders/100k)
1. St. Louis
2. Baltimore
3. Detroit
4. New Orleans
5. Baton Rouge
6. Kansas City
7. Cleveland
8. Memphis
9. Newark
10. Chicago

If you choose to look at assaults, first 10 cities are also blue

Each of those cities is blue, or Very blue, as per last election.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... rime_rates



The safest cities also happen to be solidly blue lol. Cities will always have the most crime no matter where you are. More people = more crime. This is the same for any city around the world. It has nothing to do with being a Democrat. Cities are more dangerous than rural areas and it’s been that way since the beginning of time.


Can I take your word for it? Up above, you said that the most dangerous cities are red, and it turns out that the top 10 most dangerous are all BLUE, so you either purposely stated false information or didn't even bother to check... I didn't even check the next 10, but I'm willing to bet the next 10 would be mostly, if not all blue as well.


Yes, but as has already been shown in the thread as well, urban violence can be largely isolated to specific zip codes and is not representative of the situations in cities as a whole. There are parts of each of the 'worst' cities where you'd have no idea you were in a supposedly dangerous place. This tells us that violence stems from specific conditions much more than any particular politics.

And as for the approaches and 'solutions' to those conditions, some cities have had more success than others, also pointed out in this thread. Community policing has been far more effectively practiced in LA than Chicago, as one example, but both are blue governments for multiple administrations. So again, rather than politics, because American cities are so complex to manage, the results and conditions largely come down to which interests are competing for resources, whether policy efforts can be passed from one mayoral administration to another, and so on. Any attempt to paint the situation in simplistic terms of cause and effect is disingenuous.
 
JJJ
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:35 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Except for the overall comparative prevalence of homicide this is not entirely the case. In the US violent crime is also vastly more prevalent in specific districts.

https://thecrimereport.org/2016/12/28/h ... -zip-code/


Precisely my point.

There are no "European" crime rates. If he wants to compare the quiet US districts they should be compared to European districts of similar socioeconomic makeup.


The vast majority of US districts are ‘quiet’ in the meaning you intend.


My point is still that US-quiet is not the same as EU-quiet.

According to a quick google search Columbia, Maryland is the safest US city. With a population of just over 100K they saw in 2019 (pre-covid) 8 murders, 57 rapes and 167 robberies.

https://www.howardcountymd.gov/sites/de ... Annual.pdf

My wife's hometown of Castellón at 170K (which is as average as you can get) has had 1 single murder, 2 rapes and 68 robberies on the same year.

Car theft? 5 times higher, Burglary and theft? between 3 and 4 times higher numbers, and that isn't even accounting for the population difference (70% higher)

You may consider those figures "quiet enough", but even those are higher for the standards of other Western countries.
 
johns624
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:30 pm

JJJ wrote:
My point is still that US-quiet is not the same as EU-quiet.

According to a quick google search Columbia, Maryland is the safest US city. With a population of just over 100K they saw in 2019 (pre-covid) 8 murders, 57 rapes and 167 robberies.

https://www.howardcountymd.gov/sites/de ... Annual.pdf

My wife's hometown of Castellón at 170K (which is as average as you can get) has had 1 single murder, 2 rapes and 68 robberies on the same year.

Car theft? 5 times higher, Burglary and theft? between 3 and 4 times higher numbers, and that isn't even accounting for the population difference (70% higher)

You may consider those figures "quiet enough", but even those are higher for the standards of other Western countries.
Your point is wrong. My city, Livonia, MI, is a suburb of Detroit. Our eastern boundary is less than 3 miles from Detroit. Our population is 95,000 people, spread over 36 square miles. During 2020, we had 0 murders, 26 rapes and 12 robberies. I'd say we stack up pretty well with your Spanish example. What is your source for Columbia, MD being the safest city?
https://www.areavibes.com/livonia-mi/crime/
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:32 pm

JJJ wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Precisely my point.

There are no "European" crime rates. If he wants to compare the quiet US districts they should be compared to European districts of similar socioeconomic makeup.


The vast majority of US districts are ‘quiet’ in the meaning you intend.


My point is still that US-quiet is not the same as EU-quiet.

According to a quick google search Columbia, Maryland is the safest US city. With a population of just over 100K they saw in 2019 (pre-covid) 8 murders, 57 rapes and 167 robberies.

https://www.howardcountymd.gov/sites/de ... Annual.pdf

My wife's hometown of Castellón at 170K (which is as average as you can get) has had 1 single murder, 2 rapes and 68 robberies on the same year.

Car theft? 5 times higher, Burglary and theft? between 3 and 4 times higher numbers, and that isn't even accounting for the population difference (70% higher)

You may consider those figures "quiet enough", but even those are higher for the standards of other Western countries.


Columbia MD is a 15 minute drive from some of the high-crime areas of Baltimore MD. Sunnyvale CA, near where I grew up, has a similar population and is far safer. Sunnyvale's population is 155K and they had comparable crime numbers to Castellón, despite being near both San Jose and San Francisco.

https://sunnyvale.ca.gov/civicax/fileba ... obID=22968

There are numerous places that fit Columbia's size that are similarly 'quiet' to your example. Check out Bellevue, WA, near Seattle, population 150K:

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/wa/bellevue/crime
 
Redd
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:44 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Yes, but as has already been shown in the thread as well, urban violence can be largely isolated to specific zip codes and is not representative of the situations in cities as a whole. There are parts of each of the 'worst' cities where you'd have no idea you were in a supposedly dangerous place. This tells us that violence stems from specific conditions much more than any particular politics.

.


All you're saying is that all cities have their better neighborhoods, and their worse ones. Well, yeah. That's just stating the obvious. You'll be able to find nice neighborhoods in Kandahar too, so what? Doesn't change the fact that it's a very dangerous city.

Conditions bred by politics to a large degree.
 
johns624
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:18 pm

Are there any large US cities that have had long-term Republican administrations?
 
Pi7472000
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:31 pm

Disgusting this person lost their life over an item. It Alamo illustrates the awful economic inequality people face in the U.S. People are having to choose between their economic well being and health and then loser their life because of it.
 
johns624
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:35 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Disgusting this person lost their life over an item. It Alamo illustrates the awful economic inequality people face in the U.S. People are having to choose between their economic well being and health and then loser their life because of it.
He didn't deserve/need to be shot but he was a long time criminal who was disabled when he had a bad hip operation in prison. He wasn't a disabled person who had to turn to a life of crime to support himself.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Sat Dec 11, 2021 3:16 pm

johns624 wrote:
Are there any large US cities that have had long-term Republican administrations?


A few spring to mind - Indy, Oklahoma City, San Diego, etc.

Oklahoma City - R since 1987
Indianapolis - 4 of the last 6 mayors R since 1968
San Diego - back and forth but several long stints of R mayors since 1992
Miami - 5 of last 7 mayors R since 1996
Ft. Worth - 4 of last 6 mayors R since 1982
 
johns624
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Sat Dec 11, 2021 3:29 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Are there any large US cities that have had long-term Republican administrations?


A few spring to mind - Indy, Oklahoma City, San Diego, etc.

Oklahoma City - R since 1987
Indianapolis - 4 of the last 6 mayors R since 1968
San Diego - back and forth but several long stints of R mayors since 1992
Miami - 5 of last 7 mayors R since 1996
Ft. Worth - 4 of last 6 mayors R since 1982
Doesn't that sorta make the point that the reason that most big Democratic cities have high crime rates is because most big cities are run by Democrats? Of your list, while nowhere near the worst, Indy and Miami don't have the best reputations.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Sat Dec 11, 2021 3:36 pm

johns624 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Are there any large US cities that have had long-term Republican administrations?


A few spring to mind - Indy, Oklahoma City, San Diego, etc.

Oklahoma City - R since 1987
Indianapolis - 4 of the last 6 mayors R since 1968
San Diego - back and forth but several long stints of R mayors since 1992
Miami - 5 of last 7 mayors R since 1996
Ft. Worth - 4 of last 6 mayors R since 1982
Doesn't that sorta make the point that the reason that most big Democratic cities have high crime rates is because most big cities are run by Democrats? Of your list, while nowhere near the worst, Indy and Miami don't have the best reputations.


Again, not really because each city has unique economic and government structure factors that make cross-comparison difficult. Sure it's easy to say it must be this or that, but that doesn't mean it's the case. The most simplistic case I think can be made is some city councils/mayoral administrations make the effort to work a long-term strategy in coordination with police departments, and others don't.

Image

Source: Times of London

We don't have a large enough sample because so few city mayors have been Republican since the 1970s, but the small one we have roughly extrapolates to the Democrat-run cities above - some have successfully reduced violent crime, while others (notably Chicago and Philly) have not.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:02 pm

JJJ wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Precisely my point.

There are no "European" crime rates. If he wants to compare the quiet US districts they should be compared to European districts of similar socioeconomic makeup.


The vast majority of US districts are ‘quiet’ in the meaning you intend.


My point is still that US-quiet is not the same as EU-quiet.

According to a quick google search Columbia, Maryland is the safest US city. With a population of just over 100K they saw in 2019 (pre-covid) 8 murders, 57 rapes and 167 robberies.

https://www.howardcountymd.gov/sites/de ... Annual.pdf

My wife's hometown of Castellón at 170K (which is as average as you can get) has had 1 single murder, 2 rapes and 68 robberies on the same year.

Car theft? 5 times higher, Burglary and theft? between 3 and 4 times higher numbers, and that isn't even accounting for the population difference (70% higher)

You may consider those figures "quiet enough", but even those are higher for the standards of other Western countries.


I have no idea where you came up with those numbers. There are thousands of cities across the US without murders. The fact that you believe what you wrote about the US says that you have zero clue about the country.
 
JJJ
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:23 pm

johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
My point is still that US-quiet is not the same as EU-quiet.

According to a quick google search Columbia, Maryland is the safest US city. With a population of just over 100K they saw in 2019 (pre-covid) 8 murders, 57 rapes and 167 robberies.

https://www.howardcountymd.gov/sites/de ... Annual.pdf

My wife's hometown of Castellón at 170K (which is as average as you can get) has had 1 single murder, 2 rapes and 68 robberies on the same year.

Car theft? 5 times higher, Burglary and theft? between 3 and 4 times higher numbers, and that isn't even accounting for the population difference (70% higher)

You may consider those figures "quiet enough", but even those are higher for the standards of other Western countries.
Your point is wrong. My city, Livonia, MI, is a suburb of Detroit. Our eastern boundary is less than 3 miles from Detroit. Our population is 95,000 people, spread over 36 square miles. During 2020, we had 0 murders, 26 rapes and 12 robberies. I'd say we stack up pretty well with your Spanish example. What is your source for Columbia, MD being the safest city?
https://www.areavibes.com/livonia-mi/crime/


I said a quick google search, which yielded this link as the first result:

https://www.usnews.com/news/cities/slid ... a?slide=11

Why they didn't put Livonia up there? Who knows, maybe they put the threshold at 100K

The numbers still check, though. 13x rapes, 2,5x car theft, 2,5x assault.... without accounting for 70% population difference and comparing an average european, much denser city with sprawl.

The US rural murder rate (5/100K according to this link https://law.jrank.org/pages/2222/Urban- ... areas.html) is still 7 times that of the overall rate for Spain, which, again, has it's own problematic areas that eat up most of the crime and murder rate (gangs, drug dealing.... that's also a thing over here).
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:29 pm

JJJ wrote:
johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
My point is still that US-quiet is not the same as EU-quiet.

According to a quick google search Columbia, Maryland is the safest US city. With a population of just over 100K they saw in 2019 (pre-covid) 8 murders, 57 rapes and 167 robberies.

https://www.howardcountymd.gov/sites/de ... Annual.pdf

My wife's hometown of Castellón at 170K (which is as average as you can get) has had 1 single murder, 2 rapes and 68 robberies on the same year.

Car theft? 5 times higher, Burglary and theft? between 3 and 4 times higher numbers, and that isn't even accounting for the population difference (70% higher)

You may consider those figures "quiet enough", but even those are higher for the standards of other Western countries.
Your point is wrong. My city, Livonia, MI, is a suburb of Detroit. Our eastern boundary is less than 3 miles from Detroit. Our population is 95,000 people, spread over 36 square miles. During 2020, we had 0 murders, 26 rapes and 12 robberies. I'd say we stack up pretty well with your Spanish example. What is your source for Columbia, MD being the safest city?
https://www.areavibes.com/livonia-mi/crime/


I said a quick google search, which yielded this link as the first result:

https://www.usnews.com/news/cities/slid ... a?slide=11

Why they didn't put Livonia up there? Who knows, maybe they put the threshold at 100K

The numbers still check, though. 13x rapes, 2,5x car theft, 2,5x assault.... without accounting for 70% population difference and comparing an average european, much denser city with sprawl.

The US rural murder rate (5/100K according to this link https://law.jrank.org/pages/2222/Urban- ... areas.html) is still 7 times that of the overall rate for Spain, which, again, has it's own problematic areas that eat up most of the crime and murder rate (gangs, drug dealing.... that's also a thing over here).


What about Bellevue, WA or Sunnyvale, CA?
 
johns624
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Re: Tucson Cop Fired for Killing Shoplifting Suspect

Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:10 am

JJJ wrote:
I said a quick google search, which yielded this link as the first result:

https://www.usnews.com/news/cities/slid ... a?slide=11

Why they didn't put Livonia up there? Who knows, maybe they put the threshold at 100K

The numbers still check, though. 13x rapes, 2,5x car theft, 2,5x assault.... without accounting for 70% population difference and comparing an average european, much denser city with sprawl.

The US rural murder rate (5/100K according to this link https://law.jrank.org/pages/2222/Urban- ... areas.html) is still 7 times that of the overall rate for Spain, which, again, has it's own problematic areas that eat up most of the crime and murder rate (gangs, drug dealing.... that's also a thing over here).
Wallethub is not a reputable source for crime rates. I got my figures from the FBI, who collects them. Nashua made the list, at 89K. Those were just random cities that someone thought up.

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