bpatus297 wrote:

johns624 wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

Grosse Ile?

Nope, much bigger and closer--Livonia.

Nice area. I lived in the D for about 9 years, its a really strange place with crime where it can be rampant on one side of the street, but not the other.

johns624 wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

johns624 wrote:

Nope, much bigger and closer--Livonia.

Nice area. I lived in the D for about 9 years, its a really strange place with crime where it can be rampant on one side of the street, but not the other.

I used to work with a guy who claimed that he grew up in the "bad area" of Grosse Ile. Seeing as how I grew up in the Plymouth Rd-Schaefer area of Detroit, I laughed at him.

Aaron747 wrote:

Pretty brazen case of police misconduct here - a shoplifting suspect in a scooter was fatally shot nine times in the back while his back was turned to the officer and was attempting to enter a Lowe’s. The suspect had apparently brandished a knife when confronted earlier by an employee.

The cop’s attorney is claiming he had ‘no non-lethal options’ - against a guy in a wheelchair. Really?

https://amp.azcentral.com/amp/8815159002

All this over a toolbox. The suspect lost his life for stealing one item, and the cop lost his job for excessive force.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Pretty brazen case of police misconduct here - a shoplifting suspect in a scooter was fatally shot nine times in the back while his back was turned to the officer and was attempting to enter a Lowe’s. The suspect had apparently brandished a knife when confronted earlier by an employee.

The cop’s attorney is claiming he had ‘no non-lethal options’ - against a guy in a wheelchair. Really?

https://amp.azcentral.com/amp/8815159002

All this over a toolbox. The suspect lost his life for stealing one item, and the cop lost his job for excessive force.

I'm not sympathetic. Your thread title left out the fact that the suspect was previously seen brandishing a knife previously in an altercation with an employee. Brandishing a deadly weapon while shoplifting elevates the crime to aggravated robbery or armed robbery.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Pretty brazen case of police misconduct here - a shoplifting suspect in a scooter was fatally shot nine times in the back while his back was turned to the officer and was attempting to enter a Lowe’s. The suspect had apparently brandished a knife when confronted earlier by an employee.

The cop’s attorney is claiming he had ‘no non-lethal options’ - against a guy in a wheelchair. Really?

https://amp.azcentral.com/amp/8815159002

All this over a toolbox. The suspect lost his life for stealing one item, and the cop lost his job for excessive force.

I'm not sympathetic. Your thread title left out the fact that the suspect was previously seen brandishing a knife previously in an altercation with an employee. Brandishing a deadly weapon while shoplifting elevates the crime to aggravated robbery or armed robbery.

Aaron747 wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Pretty brazen case of police misconduct here - a shoplifting suspect in a scooter was fatally shot nine times in the back while his back was turned to the officer and was attempting to enter a Lowe’s. The suspect had apparently brandished a knife when confronted earlier by an employee.

The cop’s attorney is claiming he had ‘no non-lethal options’ - against a guy in a wheelchair. Really?

https://amp.azcentral.com/amp/8815159002

All this over a toolbox. The suspect lost his life for stealing one item, and the cop lost his job for excessive force.

I'm not sympathetic. Your thread title left out the fact that the suspect was previously seen brandishing a knife previously in an altercation with an employee. Brandishing a deadly weapon while shoplifting elevates the crime to aggravated robbery or armed robbery.

From my understanding he shoplifted first and then brandished the knife when confronted by an employee who followed him to the parking lot. That would not be armed robbery under AZ law.

At any rate from witness statements it now seems the perp may have been attempting suicide by cop.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

I'm not sympathetic. Your thread title left out the fact that the suspect was previously seen brandishing a knife previously in an altercation with an employee. Brandishing a deadly weapon while shoplifting elevates the crime to aggravated robbery or armed robbery.

From my understanding he shoplifted first and then brandished the knife when confronted by an employee who followed him to the parking lot. That would not be armed robbery under AZ law.

At any rate from witness statements it now seems the perp may have been attempting suicide by cop.

I was on a jury in Texas that found a 20 year old 8 month pregnant woman (at the time of the incident) guilty of aggravated robbery when after being detained for shoplifting along with her 2 year old daughter, she bolted from a back room at a Walmart when left unattended. She ran to the car with her daughter, got in her car, and backed out of the parking space.

When she backed out, she was in such a hurry that she left the door open. The door plowed over the Walmart manager, a saleswoman in her 50's, and a 25 year old male electronics salesman. The woman then turned her car to head out of the parking lot and headed straight towards the saleswoman. The 25 year old salesman saw that the tire was traveling straight for the saleswoman's head. He grabbed her hand and began puling her out of the way. but the car ran over her pelvis.

The jury determined that the car was a deadly weapon and convicted her of 3 counts of aggravated robbery rather than misdemeanor shoplifting. We also found her guilty of child endangernent for dropping her daughter while running to the car. It took us just 15 minutes to convict her on all 4 of those counts. Actually we would have convicted her on a second child endangernent charge for the son she was 8 months pregnant with had that been charged by the grand jury.

johns624 wrote:

There was still nobody in imminent danger. The officer also had other weapons that he could've used.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

I was on a jury in Texas that found a 20 year old 8 month pregnant woman (at the time of the incident) guilty of aggravated robbery when after being detained for shoplifting along with her 2 year old daughter, she bolted from a back room at a Walmart when left unattended. She ran to the car with her daughter, got in her car, and backed out of the parking space.

When she backed out, she was in such a hurry that she left the door open. The door plowed over the Walmart manager, a saleswoman in her 50's, and a 25 year old male electronics salesman. The woman then turned her car to head out of the parking lot and headed straight towards the saleswoman. The 25 year old salesman saw that the tire was traveling straight for the saleswoman's head. He grabbed her hand and began puling her out of the way. but the car ran over her pelvis.

The jury determined that the car was a deadly weapon and convicted her of 3 counts of aggravated robbery rather than misdemeanor shoplifting. We also found her guilty of child endangernent for dropping her daughter while running to the car. It took us just 15 minutes to convict her on all 4 of those counts. Actually we would have convicted her on a second child endangernent charge for the son she was 8 months pregnant with had that been charged by the grand jury.

FlapOperator wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

I was on a jury in Texas that found a 20 year old 8 month pregnant woman (at the time of the incident) guilty of aggravated robbery when after being detained for shoplifting along with her 2 year old daughter, she bolted from a back room at a Walmart when left unattended. She ran to the car with her daughter, got in her car, and backed out of the parking space.

When she backed out, she was in such a hurry that she left the door open. The door plowed over the Walmart manager, a saleswoman in her 50's, and a 25 year old male electronics salesman. The woman then turned her car to head out of the parking lot and headed straight towards the saleswoman. The 25 year old salesman saw that the tire was traveling straight for the saleswoman's head. He grabbed her hand and began puling her out of the way. but the car ran over her pelvis.

The jury determined that the car was a deadly weapon and convicted her of 3 counts of aggravated robbery rather than misdemeanor shoplifting. We also found her guilty of child endangernent for dropping her daughter while running to the car. It took us just 15 minutes to convict her on all 4 of those counts. Actually we would have convicted her on a second child endangernent charge for the son she was 8 months pregnant with had that been charged by the grand jury.

Honestly, my opinion is that she was grossly undercharged for agg robbery versus 3 counts of attempted homicide.

This undercharging is endemic, and often is used to set up sob stories like the "incarceration of first time/non-violent offenders." Nearly never does the whole "not the first time/second time/third time charged/non-violent but undercharged and certainly in support of some other large criminal conspiracy" part make it to press.

bpatus297 wrote:

FlapOperator wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

I was on a jury in Texas that found a 20 year old 8 month pregnant woman (at the time of the incident) guilty of aggravated robbery when after being detained for shoplifting along with her 2 year old daughter, she bolted from a back room at a Walmart when left unattended. She ran to the car with her daughter, got in her car, and backed out of the parking space.

When she backed out, she was in such a hurry that she left the door open. The door plowed over the Walmart manager, a saleswoman in her 50's, and a 25 year old male electronics salesman. The woman then turned her car to head out of the parking lot and headed straight towards the saleswoman. The 25 year old salesman saw that the tire was traveling straight for the saleswoman's head. He grabbed her hand and began puling her out of the way. but the car ran over her pelvis.

The jury determined that the car was a deadly weapon and convicted her of 3 counts of aggravated robbery rather than misdemeanor shoplifting. We also found her guilty of child endangernent for dropping her daughter while running to the car. It took us just 15 minutes to convict her on all 4 of those counts. Actually we would have convicted her on a second child endangernent charge for the son she was 8 months pregnant with had that been charged by the grand jury.

Honestly, my opinion is that she was grossly undercharged for agg robbery versus 3 counts of attempted homicide.

This undercharging is endemic, and often is used to set up sob stories like the "incarceration of first time/non-violent offenders." Nearly never does the whole "not the first time/second time/third time charged/non-violent but undercharged and certainly in support of some other large criminal conspiracy" part make it to press.

Most likely it was the fact taht attempted homicide is much harder to prove. The armed robbery and assault were much easier to prove.

FlapOperator wrote:

johns624 wrote:

There was still nobody in imminent danger. The officer also had other weapons that he could've used.

My impression from talking to locals is that this isn't the case. The mayor and chief of police have truncated less-than-lethal options available to patrol officers to avoid the optics of a violent police encounter.

Likely I think the final disposition will be that the shooting was likely initially justified, but the anchor shot at the end was not.

What that cop really needed was one of those long tree limb trimmer do-dads but he didn't get into the Big Box store in time.

Aaron747 wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

FlapOperator wrote:

Honestly, my opinion is that she was grossly undercharged for agg robbery versus 3 counts of attempted homicide.

This undercharging is endemic, and often is used to set up sob stories like the "incarceration of first time/non-violent offenders." Nearly never does the whole "not the first time/second time/third time charged/non-violent but undercharged and certainly in support of some other large criminal conspiracy" part make it to press.

Most likely it was the fact taht attempted homicide is much harder to prove. The armed robbery and assault were much easier to prove.

There are lots of ways to exit a parking lot - taking the path with all the employees in it made her intentions pretty clear, no?

Aaron747 wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

FlapOperator wrote:

Honestly, my opinion is that she was grossly undercharged for agg robbery versus 3 counts of attempted homicide.

This undercharging is endemic, and often is used to set up sob stories like the "incarceration of first time/non-violent offenders." Nearly never does the whole "not the first time/second time/third time charged/non-violent but undercharged and certainly in support of some other large criminal conspiracy" part make it to press.

Most likely it was the fact taht attempted homicide is much harder to prove. The armed robbery and assault were much easier to prove.

There are lots of ways to exit a parking lot - taking the path with all the employees in it made her intentions pretty clear, no?

CitizenJustin wrote:

Redd wrote:

CitizenJustin wrote:

I subscribe to a subreddit called r/dataisbeautiful. It’s a collection of maps and general data concerning all types of topics. A recent post dealt with crime in America and many cities in the top 20 most dangerous places are solidly Republican.

Yeah, but the problem with that is that it's just not true. Top 10 most dangerous cities in the USA for murder and non-negligent manslaughter: (Murders/100k)
1. St. Louis
2. Baltimore
3. Detroit
4. New Orleans
5. Baton Rouge
6. Kansas City
7. Cleveland
8. Memphis
9. Newark
10. Chicago

If you choose to look at assaults, first 10 cities are also blue

Each of those cities is blue, or Very blue, as per last election.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... rime_rates

The safest cities also happen to be solidly blue lol. Cities will always have the most crime no matter where you are. More people = more crime. This is the same for any city around the world. It has nothing to do with being a Democrat. Cities are more dangerous than rural areas and it’s been that way since the beginning of time.

Redd wrote:

CitizenJustin wrote:

Redd wrote:

Yeah, but the problem with that is that it's just not true. Top 10 most dangerous cities in the USA for murder and non-negligent manslaughter: (Murders/100k)
1. St. Louis
2. Baltimore
3. Detroit
4. New Orleans
5. Baton Rouge
6. Kansas City
7. Cleveland
8. Memphis
9. Newark
10. Chicago

If you choose to look at assaults, first 10 cities are also blue

Each of those cities is blue, or Very blue, as per last election.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... rime_rates

The safest cities also happen to be solidly blue lol. Cities will always have the most crime no matter where you are. More people = more crime. This is the same for any city around the world. It has nothing to do with being a Democrat. Cities are more dangerous than rural areas and it’s been that way since the beginning of time.

Can I take your word for it? Up above, you said that the most dangerous cities are red, and it turns out that the top 10 most dangerous are all BLUE, so you either purposely stated false information or didn't even bother to check... I didn't even check the next 10, but I'm willing to bet the next 10 would be mostly, if not all blue as well.

Aaron747 wrote:

JJJ wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

Except for the overall comparative prevalence of homicide this is not entirely the case. In the US violent crime is also vastly more prevalent in specific districts.

https://thecrimereport.org/2016/12/28/h ... -zip-code/

Precisely my point.

There are no "European" crime rates. If he wants to compare the quiet US districts they should be compared to European districts of similar socioeconomic makeup.

The vast majority of US districts are ‘quiet’ in the meaning you intend.

JJJ wrote:

My point is still that US-quiet is not the same as EU-quiet.

According to a quick google search Columbia, Maryland is the safest US city. With a population of just over 100K they saw in 2019 (pre-covid) 8 murders, 57 rapes and 167 robberies.

https://www.howardcountymd.gov/sites/de ... Annual.pdf

My wife's hometown of Castellón at 170K (which is as average as you can get) has had 1 single murder, 2 rapes and 68 robberies on the same year.

Car theft? 5 times higher, Burglary and theft? between 3 and 4 times higher numbers, and that isn't even accounting for the population difference (70% higher)

You may consider those figures "quiet enough", but even those are higher for the standards of other Western countries.

JJJ wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

JJJ wrote:

Precisely my point.

There are no "European" crime rates. If he wants to compare the quiet US districts they should be compared to European districts of similar socioeconomic makeup.

The vast majority of US districts are ‘quiet’ in the meaning you intend.

My point is still that US-quiet is not the same as EU-quiet.

According to a quick google search Columbia, Maryland is the safest US city. With a population of just over 100K they saw in 2019 (pre-covid) 8 murders, 57 rapes and 167 robberies.

https://www.howardcountymd.gov/sites/de ... Annual.pdf

My wife's hometown of Castellón at 170K (which is as average as you can get) has had 1 single murder, 2 rapes and 68 robberies on the same year.

Car theft? 5 times higher, Burglary and theft? between 3 and 4 times higher numbers, and that isn't even accounting for the population difference (70% higher)

You may consider those figures "quiet enough", but even those are higher for the standards of other Western countries.

Aaron747 wrote:

Yes, but as has already been shown in the thread as well, urban violence can be largely isolated to specific zip codes and is not representative of the situations in cities as a whole. There are parts of each of the 'worst' cities where you'd have no idea you were in a supposedly dangerous place. This tells us that violence stems from specific conditions much more than any particular politics.

.

Pi7472000 wrote:

Disgusting this person lost their life over an item. It Alamo illustrates the awful economic inequality people face in the U.S. People are having to choose between their economic well being and health and then loser their life because of it.

johns624 wrote:

Are there any large US cities that have had long-term Republican administrations?

Aaron747 wrote:

johns624 wrote:

Are there any large US cities that have had long-term Republican administrations?

A few spring to mind - Indy, Oklahoma City, San Diego, etc.

Oklahoma City - R since 1987
Indianapolis - 4 of the last 6 mayors R since 1968
San Diego - back and forth but several long stints of R mayors since 1992
Miami - 5 of last 7 mayors R since 1996
Ft. Worth - 4 of last 6 mayors R since 1982

johns624 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

johns624 wrote:

Are there any large US cities that have had long-term Republican administrations?

A few spring to mind - Indy, Oklahoma City, San Diego, etc.

Oklahoma City - R since 1987
Indianapolis - 4 of the last 6 mayors R since 1968
San Diego - back and forth but several long stints of R mayors since 1992
Miami - 5 of last 7 mayors R since 1996
Ft. Worth - 4 of last 6 mayors R since 1982

Doesn't that sorta make the point that the reason that most big Democratic cities have high crime rates is because most big cities are run by Democrats? Of your list, while nowhere near the worst, Indy and Miami don't have the best reputations.

JJJ wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

JJJ wrote:

Precisely my point.

There are no "European" crime rates. If he wants to compare the quiet US districts they should be compared to European districts of similar socioeconomic makeup.

The vast majority of US districts are ‘quiet’ in the meaning you intend.

My point is still that US-quiet is not the same as EU-quiet.

According to a quick google search Columbia, Maryland is the safest US city. With a population of just over 100K they saw in 2019 (pre-covid) 8 murders, 57 rapes and 167 robberies.

https://www.howardcountymd.gov/sites/de ... Annual.pdf

My wife's hometown of Castellón at 170K (which is as average as you can get) has had 1 single murder, 2 rapes and 68 robberies on the same year.

Car theft? 5 times higher, Burglary and theft? between 3 and 4 times higher numbers, and that isn't even accounting for the population difference (70% higher)

You may consider those figures "quiet enough", but even those are higher for the standards of other Western countries.

johns624 wrote:

JJJ wrote:

My point is still that US-quiet is not the same as EU-quiet.

According to a quick google search Columbia, Maryland is the safest US city. With a population of just over 100K they saw in 2019 (pre-covid) 8 murders, 57 rapes and 167 robberies.

https://www.howardcountymd.gov/sites/de ... Annual.pdf

My wife's hometown of Castellón at 170K (which is as average as you can get) has had 1 single murder, 2 rapes and 68 robberies on the same year.

Car theft? 5 times higher, Burglary and theft? between 3 and 4 times higher numbers, and that isn't even accounting for the population difference (70% higher)

You may consider those figures "quiet enough", but even those are higher for the standards of other Western countries.

Your point is wrong. My city, Livonia, MI, is a suburb of Detroit. Our eastern boundary is less than 3 miles from Detroit. Our population is 95,000 people, spread over 36 square miles. During 2020, we had 0 murders, 26 rapes and 12 robberies. I'd say we stack up pretty well with your Spanish example. What is your source for Columbia, MD being the safest city?
https://www.areavibes.com/livonia-mi/crime/

JJJ wrote:

johns624 wrote:

JJJ wrote:

My point is still that US-quiet is not the same as EU-quiet.

According to a quick google search Columbia, Maryland is the safest US city. With a population of just over 100K they saw in 2019 (pre-covid) 8 murders, 57 rapes and 167 robberies.

https://www.howardcountymd.gov/sites/de ... Annual.pdf

My wife's hometown of Castellón at 170K (which is as average as you can get) has had 1 single murder, 2 rapes and 68 robberies on the same year.

Car theft? 5 times higher, Burglary and theft? between 3 and 4 times higher numbers, and that isn't even accounting for the population difference (70% higher)

You may consider those figures "quiet enough", but even those are higher for the standards of other Western countries.

Your point is wrong. My city, Livonia, MI, is a suburb of Detroit. Our eastern boundary is less than 3 miles from Detroit. Our population is 95,000 people, spread over 36 square miles. During 2020, we had 0 murders, 26 rapes and 12 robberies. I'd say we stack up pretty well with your Spanish example. What is your source for Columbia, MD being the safest city?
https://www.areavibes.com/livonia-mi/crime/

I said a quick google search, which yielded this link as the first result:

https://www.usnews.com/news/cities/slid ... a?slide=11

Why they didn't put Livonia up there? Who knows, maybe they put the threshold at 100K

The numbers still check, though. 13x rapes, 2,5x car theft, 2,5x assault.... without accounting for 70% population difference and comparing an average european, much denser city with sprawl.

The US rural murder rate (5/100K according to this link https://law.jrank.org/pages/2222/Urban- ... areas.html) is still 7 times that of the overall rate for Spain, which, again, has it's own problematic areas that eat up most of the crime and murder rate (gangs, drug dealing.... that's also a thing over here).

JJJ wrote:

I said a quick google search, which yielded this link as the first result:

https://www.usnews.com/news/cities/slid ... a?slide=11

Why they didn't put Livonia up there? Who knows, maybe they put the threshold at 100K

The numbers still check, though. 13x rapes, 2,5x car theft, 2,5x assault.... without accounting for 70% population difference and comparing an average european, much denser city with sprawl.

The US rural murder rate (5/100K according to this link https://law.jrank.org/pages/2222/Urban- ... areas.html) is still 7 times that of the overall rate for Spain, which, again, has it's own problematic areas that eat up most of the crime and murder rate (gangs, drug dealing.... that's also a thing over here).