https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/ ... rench-law/

In my opinion children has no place in jail in any civilised country! I really don't see what exactly this is meant to improve, and honestly it reeks of the usual pandering to the masses by promising harsher punishments as the cure of all society's ills.

Bullying, especially the vicious sort that leads to suicide, is without doubt a serious issue that needs to be dealt with. I myself was bullied as a kid when attending elementary school and it was definitely painful. But resorting to jailing the children is not the right solution, especially not for up to ten years! Instead the blame ought to be placed on the parents instead as they are responsible for taking care and raising their children in the first place. That, and creating new initiatives to stop bullying in schools via public campaigns, mandatory anti-bullying education etc. is in my opinion the proper way to go.

fallap wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/12/02/school-bullies-could-face-three-years-jail-new-french-law/

In my opinion children has no place in jail in any civilised country! I really don't see what exactly this is meant to improve, and honestly it reeks of the usual pandering to the masses by promising harsher punishments as the cure of all society's ills.

Bullying, especially the vicious sort that leads to suicide, is without doubt a serious issue that needs to be dealt with. I myself was bullied as a kid when attending elementary school and it was definitely painful. But resorting to jailing the children is not the right solution, especially not for up to ten years! Instead the blame ought to be placed on the parents instead as they are responsible for taking care and raising their children in the first place. That, and creating new initiatives to stop bullying in schools via public campaigns, mandatory anti-bullying education etc. is in my opinion the proper way to go.

Parents are never at fauly, anywhere, it seems. This is part and parcel of the 'affluenza' in the west.

Many who are bullies I suspect have psychological or mental health problems. Jail or more accurately a Juvenal detention center will just make them worse. Best would be to remove the disruptive bullies and place them in special schools or classrooms where they with their parents, trained persons can help deal with their problems.

ltbewr wrote:

Many who are bullies I suspect have psychological or mental health problems. Jail or more accurately a Juvenal detention center will just make them worse. Best would be to remove the disruptive bullies and place them in special schools or classrooms where they with their parents, trained persons can help deal with their problems.

No, bullies are normally the ones who mature faster than most other kids, so they're physically bigger and can intimidate others.

johns624 wrote:

ltbewr wrote:

Many who are bullies I suspect have psychological or mental health problems. Jail or more accurately a Juvenal detention center will just make them worse. Best would be to remove the disruptive bullies and place them in special schools or classrooms where they with their parents, trained persons can help deal with their problems.

No, bullies are normally the ones who mature faster than most other kids, so they're physically bigger and can intimidate others.

Mature physically, not mentally....fixed it for ya

Aaron747 wrote:

johns624 wrote:

ltbewr wrote:

Many who are bullies I suspect have psychological or mental health problems. Jail or more accurately a Juvenal detention center will just make them worse. Best would be to remove the disruptive bullies and place them in special schools or classrooms where they with their parents, trained persons can help deal with their problems.

No, bullies are normally the ones who mature faster than most other kids, so they're physically bigger and can intimidate others.

Mature physically, not mentally....fixed it for ya

Many were on the football team, so they also get a pass because they're BMOC.

We'll see where this law goes, but the age of the "perpetrator" will be taken into account, so "kids" won't end up in jail.

13 years is the minimum age in France to be incarcerated, in a specialized institution.

Up to 16 years old, you can only get up to half of the sentence an adult would get, the maximum is 20 years for the worst crimes (where an adult would get "life in prison" ).

The idea is mainly to make everyone involved, including parents but also teachers, school administrators, etc., understand that this is no laughing matter and that it should be taken very seriously.

By comparison drug dealing can get you 5 years for a small time deal, but minors are heavily involved because they get jail time only after 10 or 20 or even 50 times in front of a judge.

Aaron747 wrote:

fallap wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/12/02/school-bullies-could-face-three-years-jail-new-french-law/

In my opinion children has no place in jail in any civilised country! I really don't see what exactly this is meant to improve, and honestly it reeks of the usual pandering to the masses by promising harsher punishments as the cure of all society's ills.

Bullying, especially the vicious sort that leads to suicide, is without doubt a serious issue that needs to be dealt with. I myself was bullied as a kid when attending elementary school and it was definitely painful. But resorting to jailing the children is not the right solution, especially not for up to ten years! Instead the blame ought to be placed on the parents instead as they are responsible for taking care and raising their children in the first place. That, and creating new initiatives to stop bullying in schools via public campaigns, mandatory anti-bullying education etc. is in my opinion the proper way to go.

Parents are never at fauly, anywhere, it seems. This is part and parcel of the 'affluenza' in the west.

You kidding? The USA has bungled the bullying problem so bad for years. I never thought I would cheer France (except when they beat Brazil in 98') but good for them! Schools, Parents etc in the USA should be ashamed in this regard.

I was mercilessly bullied as a kid and in my experience, it’s often the bullied kid who ends up getting into trouble when they finally defend themselves. Many also end up dropping out while the bullies face no consequences. My schools were zero tolerance but that doesn’t mean anything. I would desperately look to adults for help and they’d just ignore the situation. They simply couldn’t be bothered. Anything that actually holds bullies accountable is a good thing. It’s a huge problem and kids don’t necessarily understand that it gets better so too many end up taking their lives. I don’t pretend to know all the answers but something has to change.

CitizenJustin wrote:

I was mercilessly bullied as a kid and in my experience, it’s often the bullied kid who ends up getting into trouble when they finally defend themselves. Many also end up dropping out while the bullies face no consequences. My schools were zero tolerance but that doesn’t mean anything. I would desperately look to adults for help and they’d just ignore the situation. They simply couldn’t be bothered. Anything that actually holds bullies accountable is a good thing. It’s a huge problem and kids don’t necessarily understand that it gets better so too many end up taking their lives. I don’t pretend to know all the answers but something has to change.

I feel your pain, I was there too - and even to this day (aged 31) I still get mad when thinking back to those days, the injustice from parents and teachers who didn't do jack and part of me still wants to travel back in time and beat the living shit out of each and everyone.

Something needs to be done, locking up children is not the solution though. Here in Denmark we have managed to cut down the percentage of pupils experiencing bullying significantly. I can't remember the exact numbers, but they are down from around 25 per cent 30 years ago to around four or five per cent today. This has been achieved not by enforcing strict legal punishments but by investing massively in anti-bullying campaigns and teach kids from an early age that bullying is wrong etc. The initiative has been spearheaded by Crown Princess Mary. In severe cases the bullying pupil may be removed from the school. Several schools also have a policy of calling the parents' of an unruly child to come pick it up, thus incentivizing better upbringing methods at home. As I said before, the parents have the main responsible.

CitizenJustin wrote:

I was mercilessly bullied as a kid and in my experience, it’s often the bullied kid who ends up getting into trouble when they finally defend themselves. Many also end up dropping out while the bullies face no consequences. My schools were zero tolerance but that doesn’t mean anything. I would desperately look to adults for help and they’d just ignore the situation. They simply couldn’t be bothered. Anything that actually holds bullies accountable is a good thing. It’s a huge problem and kids don’t necessarily understand that it gets better so too many end up taking their lives. I don’t pretend to know all the answers but something has to change.

Yep 100% true and this isn't the case just in the schoolyard.

I wasn't physically bullied but was made fun of for being awkward and shy and could have clocked out 90% of the kids who did it to me. I know I would have gotten into trouble, but bullies need to get that black eye and that is better than the gun coming out (especially in the US). The thing is when you are young and immature often its your apparent friends that do this to you. Now that I am nearly 40 I will cut out anyone who tries this crap on me and only need 2 or 3 friends. I didn't know this at 16 and probably wasn't supposed to know it.

I remember a talk radio host taking up this subject and the a parent plainly telling the principal that he is going to tell his kid that he needs to take the law into his own hands and the principal protesting. The parent didn't care and I basically applauded in the car. If I was a teacher or a school administrator I would probably be one to say to a bully's parent when he came home with a black eye that he deserved it. Probably why I would never be put in that position.

Some of the bullying is passed on from generation to generation. Remember the bumper stickers that were popular several years ago "My kid can beat up your honor student"?

johns624 wrote:

Some of the bullying is passed on from generation to generation. Remember the bumper stickers that were popular several years ago "My kid can beat up your honor student"?

It is, if the parents are bullies then kids are going to think that's ok and pass it on.

I am not in agreement with helicopter parenting nor parents being friends with their kids to the point where there is no discipline but hitting and insulting your kids isn't constructive either.
In a household where a kid would get five across the eye for the simplest form of not obeying does likely make those kids bullies in the future. They see that by using force they can get what they want. Also physical intimidation only works when the kid is smaller than the parent.

As I kid I always questioned why I couldn't do something. When I couldn't do something I wanted to know why and was never really accepted my way or the high way especially when I was a teenager. Eventually when I was told why I understood.

With my family my brother and me were bigger than our parents at 12 or 13 and one time when my dad smacked me I hit him right back. He threatened that I would never be able to do anything ever again but when he calmed down I wasn't even punished because I basically said his parenting wasn't reasonable, I escaped any trouble besides an apology. My mom agreed and we came to an understanding and I don't think I was ever punished severely again and usually behaved.
Also one time my brother got hit from my mom for misbehaving and my brother calmly said "Mom, I could kill you right now if I wanted to" My mom knew this was true, physical intimidation wouldn't work especially on two boys who have 3-5 inches in height on their father and 100+ pounds.

Now reading this you might think we were out of control kids but now with me 37 and my brother 41 we actually had decent relationships with our parents now and aren't bullies as adults. I actually am worried my sister in law will helicopter my nephew and I actually want to see him with scraped knees and playing in dirt and not being sheltered from the fact that sometime life sucks.

CitizenJustin wrote:

I was mercilessly bullied as a kid and in my experience, it’s often the bullied kid who ends up getting into trouble when they finally defend themselves. Many also end up dropping out while the bullies face no consequences. My schools were zero tolerance but that doesn’t mean anything. I would desperately look to adults for help and they’d just ignore the situation. They simply couldn’t be bothered. Anything that actually holds bullies accountable is a good thing. It’s a huge problem and kids don’t necessarily understand that it gets better so too many end up taking their lives. I don’t pretend to know all the answers but something has to change.

This is exactly why I feel as though this law is awful. Whenever my friend in elementary school used to strike back at his bullies, he would get in trouble

I recall being bullied at school. Two incidents stand out.

In one, he clapped his hands together hard with my head in the way. Didn't half make my ears ring.

Half an hour later, found him telling his mates about it. Pity he was too busy to hear me coming. One kidney punch later he knew all about it.

The other incident was when I was eating my dinner, and this kid came over with his mates and started taking the food off my plate. So I drove my fork into his hand. He never touched my food again.

Sadly, some people will only stop bullying you if they learn that you will hurt them.

fallap wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/12/02/school-bullies-could-face-three-years-jail-new-french-law/

In my opinion children has no place in jail in any civilised country! I really don't see what exactly this is meant to improve, and honestly it reeks of the usual pandering to the masses by promising harsher punishments as the cure of all society's ills.

I agree that sticking kids in jail is not a good way to try to solve the problem. If punishment is a good idea, what form should it take?

fallap wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/12/02/school-bullies-could-face-three-years-jail-new-french-law/
Bullying, especially the vicious sort that leads to suicide, is without doubt a serious issue that needs to be dealt with.

If there is a serious problem, to me the immediate priority is to protect the victims. At the same time something needs to be done to change the thinking of the perpetrators. If scaring the shit out of bullies works, so be it if it results in an immediate reduction in bullying. Incarceration for long periods is a big mistake, though, IMO.

bennett123 wrote:

I recall being bullied at school. Two incidents stand out.

In one, he clapped his hands together hard with my head in the way. Didn't half make my ears ring.

Half an hour later, found him telling his mates about it. Pity he was too busy to hear me coming. One kidney punch later he knew all about it.

The other incident was when I was eating my dinner, and this kid came over with his mates and started taking the food off my plate. So I drove my fork into his hand. He never touched my food again.

Sadly, some people will only stop bullying you if they learn that you will hurt them.

Most bullies only will stop when they get hurt.

I agree, good for you. Not sure how hold you are but even when I was in high school (the early 2000's) if you did either of these things you were looking at at minimum a suspension maybe worse especially for stabbing with the fork. I think only the gym teachers let the bully students suffer, many times when a bully got hit playing rugby or another sport the teacher just laughed at them.

I wouldn't be surprised if some parent tried to get you charged in juvenile court.

This was back in the 1970's when bullies had fewer rights.

Besides it was an 'accident' I was trying aiming for that chip and he put his hand in the way.

art wrote:

fallap wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/12/02/school-bullies-could-face-three-years-jail-new-french-law/

In my opinion children has no place in jail in any civilised country! I really don't see what exactly this is meant to improve, and honestly it reeks of the usual pandering to the masses by promising harsher punishments as the cure of all society's ills.

I agree that sticking kids in jail is not a good way to try to solve the problem. If punishment is a good idea, what form should it take?

fallap wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/12/02/school-bullies-could-face-three-years-jail-new-french-law/
Bullying, especially the vicious sort that leads to suicide, is without doubt a serious issue that needs to be dealt with.

If there is a serious problem, to me the immediate priority is to protect the victims. At the same time something needs to be done to change the thinking of the perpetrators. If scaring the shit out of bullies works, so be it if it results in an immediate reduction in bullying. Incarceration for long periods is a big mistake, though, IMO.

I don't always know the right answers, but I sure as hell know the wrong answers - jailing kids being one of them.

I am sure punishment that does not include jail-time are part of the toolbox for most civilised modern nations. Removing trouble-makers from the school in extreme cases, have the school call the parents' and ask them to come pick up their kids (this is a method that has been tried and tested with success in Denmark as it is a massive nuisance for the parents, creating major incentives for them to address their child's adverse behavior), counselling.

stl07 wrote:

CitizenJustin wrote:

I was mercilessly bullied as a kid and in my experience, it’s often the bullied kid who ends up getting into trouble when they finally defend themselves. Many also end up dropping out while the bullies face no consequences. My schools were zero tolerance but that doesn’t mean anything. I would desperately look to adults for help and they’d just ignore the situation. They simply couldn’t be bothered. Anything that actually holds bullies accountable is a good thing. It’s a huge problem and kids don’t necessarily understand that it gets better so too many end up taking their lives. I don’t pretend to know all the answers but something has to change.

This is exactly why I feel as though this law is awful. Whenever my friend in elementary school used to strike back at his bullies, he would get in trouble

I’ve noticed this happens in adult life too even in professional settings. The person who’s mistreated is considered a problem employee. I worked with a really nasty woman who would frequently cause people to break down and cry. One of her frequent targets finally had enough and went off on her. It was nothing more than an attempt to defend herself and stop the bullying. Of course she’s the one who was written up and reprimanded for causing a scene. Management didn’t care that she was essentially pushed into a corner. Per usual, the bully wasn’t even spoken to and her reign of terror continued. In some companies, if your numbers are good, you’re golden and can get away with just about anything. The older I get the more I realize that the “nice guys finish last” saying is all too true.

fallap wrote:

CitizenJustin wrote:

I was mercilessly bullied as a kid and in my experience, it’s often the bullied kid who ends up getting into trouble when they finally defend themselves. Many also end up dropping out while the bullies face no consequences. My schools were zero tolerance but that doesn’t mean anything. I would desperately look to adults for help and they’d just ignore the situation. They simply couldn’t be bothered. Anything that actually holds bullies accountable is a good thing. It’s a huge problem and kids don’t necessarily understand that it gets better so too many end up taking their lives. I don’t pretend to know all the answers but something has to change.

I feel your pain, I was there too - and even to this day (aged 31) I still get mad when thinking back to those days, the injustice from parents and teachers who didn't do jack and part of me still wants to travel back in time and beat the living shit out of each and everyone.

Something needs to be done, locking up children is not the solution though. Here in Denmark we have managed to cut down the percentage of pupils experiencing bullying significantly. I can't remember the exact numbers, but they are down from around 25 per cent 30 years ago to around four or five per cent today. This has been achieved not by enforcing strict legal punishments but by investing massively in anti-bullying campaigns and teach kids from an early age that bullying is wrong etc. The initiative has been spearheaded by Crown Princess Mary. In severe cases the bullying pupil may be removed from the school. Several schools also have a policy of calling the parents' of an unruly child to come pick it up, thus incentivizing better upbringing methods at home. As I said before, the parents have the main responsible.

That’s great! I think education is key. I don’t ever remember being taught that bullying was wrong. Of course they would go on and on about drugs, but not one word about bullying. I’ll never forget the time I was being physically bullied and two teachers were standing right there chatting instead of helping me. I remember the carelessness in their eyes the most. I’ll never forget it.

StarAC17 wrote:

I am not in agreement with helicopter parenting nor parents being friends with their kids to the point where there is no discipline but hitting and insulting your kids isn't constructive either.
In a household where a kid would get five across the eye for the simplest form of not obeying does likely make those kids bullies in the future. They see that by using force they can get what they want.

Hitting your kid to "teach him/her a lesson" will just teach your kid that it's perfectly acceptable to hit others to "teach them a lesson".

Model the behavior you want to see in your kids.

I also read this awhile ago, and it stuck with me (paraphrasing, as I don't remember the exact quote):

Does your child have the reasoning capability to understand why you are hitting them (meaning, is the child able to understand that they did something wrong, and that's why you are hitting them)?
If no, then don't hit them, as they won't understand it.
If yes, then don't hit them, reason with them.

fallap wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/12/02/school-bullies-could-face-three-years-jail-new-french-law/

In my opinion children has no place in jail in any civilised country! I really don't see what exactly this is meant to improve, and honestly it reeks of the usual pandering to the masses by promising harsher punishments as the cure of all society's ills.

Bullying, especially the vicious sort that leads to suicide, is without doubt a serious issue that needs to be dealt with. I myself was bullied as a kid when attending elementary school and it was definitely painful. But resorting to jailing the children is not the right solution, especially not for up to ten years! Instead the blame ought to be placed on the parents instead as they are responsible for taking care and raising their children in the first place. That, and creating new initiatives to stop bullying in schools via public campaigns, mandatory anti-bullying education etc. is in my opinion the proper way to go.

Bullies in school are the murderers once they reach adulthood. If you don't deal with them at the bullying stage you are breeding the people who have no regard for human lives and will commit crimes all their lives till they are locked up.

NIKV69 wrote:

fallap wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/12/02/school-bullies-could-face-three-years-jail-new-french-law/

In my opinion children has no place in jail in any civilised country! I really don't see what exactly this is meant to improve, and honestly it reeks of the usual pandering to the masses by promising harsher punishments as the cure of all society's ills.

Bullying, especially the vicious sort that leads to suicide, is without doubt a serious issue that needs to be dealt with. I myself was bullied as a kid when attending elementary school and it was definitely painful. But resorting to jailing the children is not the right solution, especially not for up to ten years! Instead the blame ought to be placed on the parents instead as they are responsible for taking care and raising their children in the first place. That, and creating new initiatives to stop bullying in schools via public campaigns, mandatory anti-bullying education etc. is in my opinion the proper way to go.

Bullies in school are the murderers once they reach adulthood. If you don't deal with them at the bullying stage you are breeding the people who have no regard for human lives and will commit crimes all their lives till they are locked up.

I'm not sure I agree with that, unless you can confirm someone is a serial killer and has no emotions what so ever then you can't identify a murderer. Most murders are done due to emotion rather than an upbringing IMO. School shooting are a prime example as this cause is mostly emotions of desperation, same with suicide or domestic murders, the latter driven by being wronged or jealousy.

If a Bully is unchecked they will behave like Trump or those middle management types who are simply useless and passive aggressive and tend to micro manage. Too many get to the top actually but they are usually brilliant as well.

Also many of them will get stood up to at some point in their lives and have their come to Jesus moment to stop this. If they don't adults will see through them and not take them seriously.

StarAC17 wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

fallap wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/12/02/school-bullies-could-face-three-years-jail-new-french-law/

In my opinion children has no place in jail in any civilised country! I really don't see what exactly this is meant to improve, and honestly it reeks of the usual pandering to the masses by promising harsher punishments as the cure of all society's ills.

Bullying, especially the vicious sort that leads to suicide, is without doubt a serious issue that needs to be dealt with. I myself was bullied as a kid when attending elementary school and it was definitely painful. But resorting to jailing the children is not the right solution, especially not for up to ten years! Instead the blame ought to be placed on the parents instead as they are responsible for taking care and raising their children in the first place. That, and creating new initiatives to stop bullying in schools via public campaigns, mandatory anti-bullying education etc. is in my opinion the proper way to go.

Bullies in school are the murderers once they reach adulthood. If you don't deal with them at the bullying stage you are breeding the people who have no regard for human lives and will commit crimes all their lives till they are locked up.

I'm not sure I agree with that, unless you can confirm someone is a serial killer and has no emotions what so ever then you can't identify a murderer. Most murders are done due to emotion rather than an upbringing IMO. School shooting are a prime example as this cause is mostly emotions of desperation, same with suicide or domestic murders, the latter driven by being wronged or jealousy.

If a Bully is unchecked they will behave like Trump or those middle management types who are simply useless and passive aggressive and tend to micro manage. Too many get to the top actually but they are usually brilliant as well.

Also many of them will get stood up to at some point in their lives and have their come to Jesus moment to stop this. If they don't adults will see through them and not take them seriously.

The problem is many do make it to middle management. Schools never take bullying seriously. An overly strict law just enables the smarter ones to trap their victims when they react and the bulky feigns ignorance.

Lightsaber

CitizenJustin wrote:

I was mercilessly bullied as a kid and in my experience, it’s often the bullied kid who ends up getting into trouble when they finally defend themselves. Many also end up dropping out while the bullies face no consequences. My schools were zero tolerance but that doesn’t mean anything. I would desperately look to adults for help and they’d just ignore the situation. They simply couldn’t be bothered. Anything that actually holds bullies accountable is a good thing. It’s a huge problem and kids don’t necessarily understand that it gets better so too many end up taking their lives. I don’t pretend to know all the answers but something has to change.

I would agree with that.

I would add bullies nowadays are much smarter, rather than just punch and hit kids in the schoolyard, now cyber bullying and whisper campaigns are just prevalent.

I’ve also seen something horrible I call “false reporting bullying”. That’s when a group of bullies over a period of time go to teachers and report the target of their bullying, usually a quiet shy kid, as saying and doing inappropriate things, when in reality they didn’t. Over time the teachers begin to believe that kid is a troublemaker and is disciplined and given detention, whilst the reporters (the real bullies) get off scot free.

Oh and one more thing. Don’t think bullying ends upon school graduation. I’ve seen worse examples of bullying in the workplace, sometime the perpetrators are aged in their 50s and 60s.

Bullies are more than willing to ruin someone else’s career to get ahead or compensate for their own inadequacies.

The worse thing is, in both school and the workplace, the teachers/managers don’t have the time and resources to fully investigate teach situation to see who the real perpetrators are. They pretty much just treat the bullies and the bullied the same, tell them to kiss and make up and not have to take up more of their time. The bullies love this as they believe they can get away with anything, the bullied realise that even reporting bullying to management or teachers doesn’t stop it.