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lightsaber
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:25 am

Francoflier wrote:
Good.

It's either that or turn them away from the hospitals. The former is the more ethical way to go about it while ensuring that their selfishness and lack of social solidarity doesn't weigh on society as a whole too much.

To build on your comment.
Morale in the hospitals is horrible. At my relative's In the ICU infighting to preserve "clean" quads for stroke, heart attacks, accidents, or post-operation was lost, but medical staff are bitter they have those patients dying because unvaccinated are filling up most of the ICU.

e.g., in Michigan 87% of Covid19 ICU patients are unvaccinated. The slack in many states is gone, not just Germany.
https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2021/12/02 ... -says/?amp

I am worried staff morale will break. We have demanded the hospital staff run without vacations for approaching 2 years. That is unsustainable.

I do not know what, if anything can be done. People needed vaccines six weeks ago. I'm personally frustrated as anyone age 12+ could easily get vaccinated since mid-May. This is a crisis of choice.

We saw the rise in case fatality rates in Romania when their hospitals couldn't keep up:
https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

Germany must implement stricter measures. I'm afraid the USA is only weeks behind.

Lightsaber
 
art
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:08 am

lightsaber wrote:
Morale in the hospitals is horrible. At my relative's In the ICU infighting to preserve "clean" quads for stroke, heart attacks, accidents, or post-operation was lost, but medical staff are bitter they have those patients dying because unvaccinated are filling up most of the ICU.

Lightsaber

The distress described is apparently echoed in England by general practitioners whose patients are not receiving hospital treatment due to the number of beds and resources taken up by COVID-19 patients, many of whom (perhaps most - have not checked) were not vaccinated when they became infected with COVID-19.

First dose vaccination of the population has slowed to a crawl and is well below the desired level:
Oct 1 - 73.44%
Nov 1 - 75.08%
Dec 1 - 76.71%

I think that steps need to be taken to discourage people from refusing vaccination. Their refusal imposes too high a burden on our health system. I would favour denying them hospital treatment so that people suffering other conditions can be treated in hospital.
 
cpd
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:21 am

lightsaber wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
Good.

It's either that or turn them away from the hospitals. The former is the more ethical way to go about it while ensuring that their selfishness and lack of social solidarity doesn't weigh on society as a whole too much.

To build on your comment.
Morale in the hospitals is horrible. At my relative's In the ICU infighting to preserve "clean" quads for stroke, heart attacks, accidents, or post-operation was lost, but medical staff are bitter they have those patients dying because unvaccinated are filling up most of the ICU.

e.g., in Michigan 87% of Covid19 ICU patients are unvaccinated. The slack in many states is gone, not just Germany.
https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2021/12/02 ... -says/?amp

I am worried staff morale will break. We have demanded the hospital staff run without vacations for approaching 2 years. That is unsustainable.

I do not know what, if anything can be done. People needed vaccines six weeks ago. I'm personally frustrated as anyone age 12+ could easily get vaccinated since mid-May. This is a crisis of choice.

We saw the rise in case fatality rates in Romania when their hospitals couldn't keep up:
https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

Germany must implement stricter measures. I'm afraid the USA is only weeks behind.

Lightsaber


Very valid points Lightsaber and all good, but you'll get shouted down (as I was) about "civil liberties", "rights", "freedoms", "papers please" etc. I had much the same thoughts as you on this but I figured that it was pointless to post them. The only thing they didn't say (yet) was that I was happy living in North Korea.

The key point is that people won't have many liberties, rights or freedoms if they get long-haul COVID side effects like some people I know of. One of them cannot even drive a car anymore because it's not safe (he gets seizures). Many other things he used to do he will never be able to do again after covid, his quality of life is wrecked. There are plenty of others who have the long term side-effects.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:30 am

lightsaber wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
Good.

It's either that or turn them away from the hospitals. The former is the more ethical way to go about it while ensuring that their selfishness and lack of social solidarity doesn't weigh on society as a whole too much.

To build on your comment.
Morale in the hospitals is horrible. At my relative's In the ICU infighting to preserve "clean" quads for stroke, heart attacks, accidents, or post-operation was lost, but medical staff are bitter they have those patients dying because unvaccinated are filling up most of the ICU.

e.g., in Michigan 87% of Covid19 ICU patients are unvaccinated. The slack in many states is gone, not just Germany.
https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2021/12/02 ... -says/?amp

I am worried staff morale will break. We have demanded the hospital staff run without vacations for approaching 2 years. That is unsustainable.

I do not know what, if anything can be done. People needed vaccines six weeks ago. I'm personally frustrated as anyone age 12+ could easily get vaccinated since mid-May. This is a crisis of choice.

We saw the rise in case fatality rates in Romania when their hospitals couldn't keep up:
https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

Germany must implement stricter measures. I'm afraid the USA is only weeks behind.

Lightsaber


I don't know if it is just indifference or callousness or both, but I am continually flabbergasted by the level of entitlement amongst people who just expect healthcare workers to soldier on forever to accommodate selfish viewpoints and juvenile interpretations of liberties.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:10 am

art wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Morale in the hospitals is horrible. At my relative's In the ICU infighting to preserve "clean" quads for stroke, heart attacks, accidents, or post-operation was lost, but medical staff are bitter they have those patients dying because unvaccinated are filling up most of the ICU.

Lightsaber

The distress described is apparently echoed in England by general practitioners whose patients are not receiving hospital treatment due to the number of beds and resources taken up by COVID-19 patients, many of whom (perhaps most - have not checked) were not vaccinated when they became infected with COVID-19.

First dose vaccination of the population has slowed to a crawl and is well below the desired level:
Oct 1 - 73.44%
Nov 1 - 75.08%
Dec 1 - 76.71%

I think that steps need to be taken to discourage people from refusing vaccination. Their refusal imposes too high a burden on our health system. I would favour denying them hospital treatment so that people suffering other conditions can be treated in hospital.

Genuinely curious…what is the actual hold-up/argument against incorporating vaccination status into a triage-type evaluation of who to provide care for? I get it, in a perfect environment nobody should be turned away…but if people want to live by the sword and medical resources are finite, why not just let them risk dying by the sword?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:43 am

flyguy89 wrote:
art wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Morale in the hospitals is horrible. At my relative's In the ICU infighting to preserve "clean" quads for stroke, heart attacks, accidents, or post-operation was lost, but medical staff are bitter they have those patients dying because unvaccinated are filling up most of the ICU.

Lightsaber

The distress described is apparently echoed in England by general practitioners whose patients are not receiving hospital treatment due to the number of beds and resources taken up by COVID-19 patients, many of whom (perhaps most - have not checked) were not vaccinated when they became infected with COVID-19.

First dose vaccination of the population has slowed to a crawl and is well below the desired level:
Oct 1 - 73.44%
Nov 1 - 75.08%
Dec 1 - 76.71%

I think that steps need to be taken to discourage people from refusing vaccination. Their refusal imposes too high a burden on our health system. I would favour denying them hospital treatment so that people suffering other conditions can be treated in hospital.

Genuinely curious…what is the actual hold-up/argument against incorporating vaccination status into a triage-type evaluation of who to provide care for? I get it, in a perfect environment nobody should be turned away…but if people want to live by the sword and medical resources are finite, why not just let them risk dying by the sword?


I think most people agree with that emotionally, but in practical terms that's a difficult paradigm shift for the medical profession to suddenly operate by.
 
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fallap
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:51 am

art wrote:
fallap wrote:
It's quite astonishing, and worrying, how supposedly robust liberal democracies are willing to throw a firesale of civil liberties and fundamental freedoms the moment a mild pandemic appears.

I take issue with your intimation that this is 'a mild pandemic', given that in excess of 250,000,000 people are recorded as having been infected with COVID-19 and in excess of 5,000,000 people are recorded as dying after becoming infected with COVID-19.

Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


Five million fatalities is what I would consider "mild" when comparing to past pandemics. Especially considering how much we move around these days compared to the days of say the Spanish Flu.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:54 am

fallap wrote:
art wrote:
fallap wrote:
It's quite astonishing, and worrying, how supposedly robust liberal democracies are willing to throw a firesale of civil liberties and fundamental freedoms the moment a mild pandemic appears.

I take issue with your intimation that this is 'a mild pandemic', given that in excess of 250,000,000 people are recorded as having been infected with COVID-19 and in excess of 5,000,000 people are recorded as dying after becoming infected with COVID-19.

Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


Five million fatalities is what I would consider "mild" when comparing to past pandemics. Especially considering how much we move around these days compared to the days of say the Spanish Flu.


This comparison of fatalities is only apt if standards of medical care were the same between now and then. You’re comparing how mobile we are though...how convenient. This is as disingenuous as a public health take gets. Can tack that on to the silly earlier take about leaving people ‘unscathed’ :lol:
Last edited by Aaron747 on Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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fallap
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:54 am

lightsaber wrote:
Francoflier wrote:


Germany must implement stricter measures. I'm afraid the USA is only weeks behind.

Lightsaber


What sort of stricter measures would you like to see implemented in Germany? :)
 
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fallap
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:03 am

Aaron747 wrote:
fallap wrote:
art wrote:
I take issue with your intimation that this is 'a mild pandemic', given that in excess of 250,000,000 people are recorded as having been infected with COVID-19 and in excess of 5,000,000 people are recorded as dying after becoming infected with COVID-19.

Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


Five million fatalities is what I would consider "mild" when comparing to past pandemics. Especially considering how much we move around these days compared to the days of say the Spanish Flu.


This comparison of fatalities is only apt if standards of medical care were the same between now and then. You’re comparing how mobile we are though...how convenient. This is as disingenuous as a public health take gets.


Had the standards of medical service and general health etc. in the 1920's been the same as today fewer would likely have died of the Spanish Flu, had the people of the 1920's access to the same means of transport as today it would have been far worse; all reasonable comparisons. Regardless, 5 million fatalities from a global pandemic having reached every single corner of the earth over the course of almost two years is in the mild end of the spectre if you ask me, and I find it difficult to see how we keep justifying lock-downs and other strict measures. God knows the long term adverse effect of Covid-19 related lock-downs etc. Kids missing school and falling behind, health related issues connected to lesser mobility (obesity, diabetes etc.), psychological issues (In Denmark the psychiatric wards have been laid siege by major increases in people needing help), etc. etc.
These are my concerns as well, those less apparent who's effects may not be known for a very long time.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:15 am

fallap wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
fallap wrote:

Five million fatalities is what I would consider "mild" when comparing to past pandemics. Especially considering how much we move around these days compared to the days of say the Spanish Flu.


This comparison of fatalities is only apt if standards of medical care were the same between now and then. You’re comparing how mobile we are though...how convenient. This is as disingenuous as a public health take gets.


Had the standards of medical service and general health etc. in the 1920's been the same as today fewer would likely have died of the Spanish Flu, had the people of the 1920's access to the same means of transport as today it would have been far worse; all reasonable comparisons. Regardless, 5 million fatalities from a global pandemic having reached every single corner of the earth over the course of almost two years is in the mild end of the spectre if you ask me, and I find it difficult to see how we keep justifying lock-downs and other strict measures. God knows the long term adverse effect of Covid-19 related lock-downs etc. Kids missing school and falling behind, health related issues connected to lesser mobility (obesity, diabetes etc.), psychological issues (In Denmark the psychiatric wards have been laid siege by major increases in people needing help), etc. etc.
These are my concerns as well, those less apparent who's effects may not be known for a very long time.


Missed school time, lifestyle issues due to being at home, and psychological effects are all far easier to mitigate with proper measures than long-term organ and neurological damage. And we're not getting into knock-on effects from the pandemic being prolonged due to people's behavior and selfishness - continuing economic uncertainty and untold numbers of HCWs retiring early or leaving the field due to morale and exhaustion.
 
Redd
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:24 pm

I just don't get how people don't understand vaccine hesitancy, especially in very fit and healthy people. There have been several athletes who have lost their careers, at least for the time being, due to adverse side effects of the vaccine, especially myocarditis. I personally know 3 people who've ended up in hospital after the vaccine, one of them fighting for his life in the ICU.

Now, this wouldn't be an issue if vaccine related illness and death was treated seriously, but you have issues like professional mountain biker Kyle Warner who had to put his career on hold, had a severe adverse reaction to the vaccine, and when he went to the emergency room the first time because his resting pulse rate was over 150, he was told he should go to a mental hospital because he's having a psychotic episode.

World Champion free diver Florian Dagoury was diagnosed with Myopericarditis as a result of the vaccine, and it looks like his career is done, over. Due solely to the vaccine.

What's scary isn't so much the bad side effects, it's the fact that no one is taking these people seriously, ignoring these stories, and many people are hesitant because they don't want to end up in that same position. Especially very healthy and fit people, generally know that Covid does not pose a risk to their health, so adding additional risk is not something that makes them comfortable.

Also, we've come so far in being able to treat Covid, and there doesn't seem to be anyone concentrating on treatment, especially for those that want to avoid the vaccine. There is a doctor in Poland that was treating Parkinsons patients with Amantadine when the pandemic broke out, and he noticed that none of the patients who contracted covid had any serious symptoms, and none needed hospitalization. He started prescribing it to all of his coivd patients, with somewhere a perfect success rate of keeping people out of the hospital, and the Polish government stopped him from the ability to practice. And made it almost impossible to get Amantadine prescribed.

Since then there have been proper scientific studies done, or ones that are currently in progress that show the same results. So why not just make this, and the other treatments, widely available?

And then there is the excuse "Well I got the vaccine and I feel perfectly fine". Well, that's great. I had covid, and felt a little weak for one day only, and I feel perfectly fine.

The issue here is choice, if someone gets the vaccine and dies or gets permanent lifelong illness, as many have, do any of you pushing the vaccine on everyone care? No, you don't care at all, that's the part you all ignore.

I'm vaccinated, by the way, so spare yourself that part of your response.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:11 pm

Redd wrote:
I just don't get how people don't understand vaccine hesitancy, especially in very fit and healthy people. There have been several athletes who have lost their careers, at least for the time being, due to adverse side effects of the vaccine, especially myocarditis. I personally know 3 people who've ended up in hospital after the vaccine, one of them fighting for his life in the ICU.

Now, this wouldn't be an issue if vaccine related illness and death was treated seriously, but you have issues like professional mountain biker Kyle Warner who had to put his career on hold, had a severe adverse reaction to the vaccine, and when he went to the emergency room the first time because his resting pulse rate was over 150, he was told he should go to a mental hospital because he's having a psychotic episode.

World Champion free diver Florian Dagoury was diagnosed with Myopericarditis as a result of the vaccine, and it looks like his career is done, over. Due solely to the vaccine.

What's scary isn't so much the bad side effects, it's the fact that no one is taking these people seriously, ignoring these stories, and many people are hesitant because they don't want to end up in that same position. Especially very healthy and fit people, generally know that Covid does not pose a risk to their health, so adding additional risk is not something that makes them comfortable.

Also, we've come so far in being able to treat Covid, and there doesn't seem to be anyone concentrating on treatment, especially for those that want to avoid the vaccine. There is a doctor in Poland that was treating Parkinsons patients with Amantadine when the pandemic broke out, and he noticed that none of the patients who contracted covid had any serious symptoms, and none needed hospitalization. He started prescribing it to all of his coivd patients, with somewhere a perfect success rate of keeping people out of the hospital, and the Polish government stopped him from the ability to practice. And made it almost impossible to get Amantadine prescribed.

Since then there have been proper scientific studies done, or ones that are currently in progress that show the same results. So why not just make this, and the other treatments, widely available?

And then there is the excuse "Well I got the vaccine and I feel perfectly fine". Well, that's great. I had covid, and felt a little weak for one day only, and I feel perfectly fine.

The issue here is choice, if someone gets the vaccine and dies or gets permanent lifelong illness, as many have, do any of you pushing the vaccine on everyone care? No, you don't care at all, that's the part you all ignore.

I'm vaccinated, by the way, so spare yourself that part of your response.


If you don’t have a lot of medical knowledge, I would take all of these reports and claims with a grain of salt. There have been rare cases of myocarditis in some otherwise healthy people, but recent medical literature doesn’t attribute this to the vaccine itself - rather improper or accidental intraveneous administration rather than intramuscular.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34406358/

Also people far too often say ‘he was fit and healthy’ when referring to athletes, marathon runners, etc. In reality body systems operate on a bell curve and some of these folks work their hearts pretty hard. These people may have undiagnosed valve disorders or heart muscle enlargement - some conditions may be affected by receiving an agent that causes temporary inflammatory response. ‘Fit’ doesn’t only mean how people look on the outside.

Correlation ≠ causation
 
Redd
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:33 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Redd wrote:
I just don't get how people don't understand vaccine hesitancy, especially in very fit and healthy people. There have been several athletes who have lost their careers, at least for the time being, due to adverse side effects of the vaccine, especially myocarditis. I personally know 3 people who've ended up in hospital after the vaccine, one of them fighting for his life in the ICU.

Now, this wouldn't be an issue if vaccine related illness and death was treated seriously, but you have issues like professional mountain biker Kyle Warner who had to put his career on hold, had a severe adverse reaction to the vaccine, and when he went to the emergency room the first time because his resting pulse rate was over 150, he was told he should go to a mental hospital because he's having a psychotic episode.

World Champion free diver Florian Dagoury was diagnosed with Myopericarditis as a result of the vaccine, and it looks like his career is done, over. Due solely to the vaccine.

What's scary isn't so much the bad side effects, it's the fact that no one is taking these people seriously, ignoring these stories, and many people are hesitant because they don't want to end up in that same position. Especially very healthy and fit people, generally know that Covid does not pose a risk to their health, so adding additional risk is not something that makes them comfortable.

Also, we've come so far in being able to treat Covid, and there doesn't seem to be anyone concentrating on treatment, especially for those that want to avoid the vaccine. There is a doctor in Poland that was treating Parkinsons patients with Amantadine when the pandemic broke out, and he noticed that none of the patients who contracted covid had any serious symptoms, and none needed hospitalization. He started prescribing it to all of his coivd patients, with somewhere a perfect success rate of keeping people out of the hospital, and the Polish government stopped him from the ability to practice. And made it almost impossible to get Amantadine prescribed.

Since then there have been proper scientific studies done, or ones that are currently in progress that show the same results. So why not just make this, and the other treatments, widely available?

And then there is the excuse "Well I got the vaccine and I feel perfectly fine". Well, that's great. I had covid, and felt a little weak for one day only, and I feel perfectly fine.

The issue here is choice, if someone gets the vaccine and dies or gets permanent lifelong illness, as many have, do any of you pushing the vaccine on everyone care? No, you don't care at all, that's the part you all ignore.

I'm vaccinated, by the way, so spare yourself that part of your response.


If you don’t have a lot of medical knowledge, I would take all of these reports and claims with a grain of salt.

Also people far too often say ‘he was fit and healthy’ when referring to athletes, marathon runners, etc. In reality body systems operate on a bell curve and some of these folks work their hearts pretty hard. These people may have undiagnosed valve disorders or heart muscle enlargement - some conditions may be affected by receiving an agent that causes temporary inflammatory response. ‘Fit’ doesn’t only mean how people look on the outside.

Correlation ≠ causation


That is exactly why many people are hesitant. Because they think that if they draw the short straw, people will just take their life changing injuries or possibly death with a grain of salt.

As to the heart issue, runners live an average of 30% longer because of their cardiovascular health is superior to the average person. The heart is a muscle, the more you work it (without overdoing it of course) the better it works and the stronger it is. I'm a marathon and ultra runner, so I can talk about most of these benefits first hand. I also had an increased resting heart rate after the vaccine, but luckily it didn't last too long.

And I'll have to disagree on your last point. If otherwise healthy people, especially professional athletes, suddenly fall ill after the vaccine, correlation does = causation, or in the very least, should be taken very seriously that it could. So many people I know are hesitant because they weight the risks, and like I'd mentioned above, 3 people in my circle have been hit hard by the vaccine side effects and one so seriously that he ended up in the ICU.

I'm pro vaccine, but this one sided dialog and shaming people that are hesitant needs to stop.
 
art
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:38 pm

Redd wrote:
specially very healthy and fit people, generally know that Covid does not pose a risk to their health, so adding additional risk is not something that makes them comfortable.


COVID-19 can have detrimental effects; COVID-19 vaccination can have detrimental effects. How do you choose to minimise the risk posed? I think this should be a data-based judgement. Take a basket of deliterious effects from the vaccine and from the disease. What is the quantity of ill effects manifested for every million people who are vaccinated? What is the quantity of ill effects manifested for every million people who are not vaccinated?
Whatever particular side effects have been found in vaccinated people, it seems that those same side effects are found to a much greater degree in people who are unvaccinated but who catch COVID-19. And then there are the devastating effects the disease inflicts on some unvaccinated people, devastating effects mostly absent in vaccinated people who catch COVID-19.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:51 pm

fallap wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Francoflier wrote:


Germany must implement stricter measures. I'm afraid the USA is only weeks behind.

Lightsaber


What sort of stricter measures would you like to see implemented in Germany? :)

Anything to slow the spread.
1. A better quality mask requirement
2. Mandate more options for takeout essentials (e.g., curbside delivery). I know this is going on, but more mandates.
3. Since so much spread is in school kids and then kids to parents, mandatory vaccination ages 5+ to attend in person. Any school.

Some is just redo mass vaccination sites, including for child vaccinations. I am thankful both of my children are fully vaccinated. My preference would be for all in person classmates to be vaccinated (already required of adults). Not a stricter rule, but the system to administer vaccines needs help. In particular for kids vaccines in the quantities required.

As someone who just last week had a needed "elective surgery" to cure a post coronavirus symptom, I find it reprehensible that people are not taking responsibility for their actions, or more precisely, inaction in vaccination. We already know elective surgeries were postponed in Germany:
https://www.vanguardngr.com/2021/11/ger ... ds-faster/

I could list other areas also not doing elective surgeries due to lack of vaccinations and boosters (UK, New Mexico, Colorado, Michigan, Upstate New York).

What would you do to open the hospitals back up for elective surgeries? That is the minimum that should be accepted. I'd love to hear alternative, less punitive strategies that work. Please do not suggest what has obviously failed in the past.

Lightsaber
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:53 pm

Redd wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Redd wrote:
I just don't get how people don't understand vaccine hesitancy, especially in very fit and healthy people. There have been several athletes who have lost their careers, at least for the time being, due to adverse side effects of the vaccine, especially myocarditis. I personally know 3 people who've ended up in hospital after the vaccine, one of them fighting for his life in the ICU.

Now, this wouldn't be an issue if vaccine related illness and death was treated seriously, but you have issues like professional mountain biker Kyle Warner who had to put his career on hold, had a severe adverse reaction to the vaccine, and when he went to the emergency room the first time because his resting pulse rate was over 150, he was told he should go to a mental hospital because he's having a psychotic episode.

World Champion free diver Florian Dagoury was diagnosed with Myopericarditis as a result of the vaccine, and it looks like his career is done, over. Due solely to the vaccine.

What's scary isn't so much the bad side effects, it's the fact that no one is taking these people seriously, ignoring these stories, and many people are hesitant because they don't want to end up in that same position. Especially very healthy and fit people, generally know that Covid does not pose a risk to their health, so adding additional risk is not something that makes them comfortable.

Also, we've come so far in being able to treat Covid, and there doesn't seem to be anyone concentrating on treatment, especially for those that want to avoid the vaccine. There is a doctor in Poland that was treating Parkinsons patients with Amantadine when the pandemic broke out, and he noticed that none of the patients who contracted covid had any serious symptoms, and none needed hospitalization. He started prescribing it to all of his coivd patients, with somewhere a perfect success rate of keeping people out of the hospital, and the Polish government stopped him from the ability to practice. And made it almost impossible to get Amantadine prescribed.

Since then there have been proper scientific studies done, or ones that are currently in progress that show the same results. So why not just make this, and the other treatments, widely available?

And then there is the excuse "Well I got the vaccine and I feel perfectly fine". Well, that's great. I had covid, and felt a little weak for one day only, and I feel perfectly fine.

The issue here is choice, if someone gets the vaccine and dies or gets permanent lifelong illness, as many have, do any of you pushing the vaccine on everyone care? No, you don't care at all, that's the part you all ignore.

I'm vaccinated, by the way, so spare yourself that part of your response.


If you don’t have a lot of medical knowledge, I would take all of these reports and claims with a grain of salt.

Also people far too often say ‘he was fit and healthy’ when referring to athletes, marathon runners, etc. In reality body systems operate on a bell curve and some of these folks work their hearts pretty hard. These people may have undiagnosed valve disorders or heart muscle enlargement - some conditions may be affected by receiving an agent that causes temporary inflammatory response. ‘Fit’ doesn’t only mean how people look on the outside.

Correlation ≠ causation


That is exactly why many people are hesitant. Because they think that if they draw the short straw, people will just take their life changing injuries or possibly death with a grain of salt.

As to the heart issue, runners live an average of 30% longer because of their cardiovascular health is superior to the average person. The heart is a muscle, the more you work it (without overdoing it of course) the better it works and the stronger it is. I'm a marathon and ultra runner, so I can talk about most of these benefits first hand. I also had an increased resting heart rate after the vaccine, but luckily it didn't last too long.

And I'll have to disagree on your last point. If otherwise healthy people, especially professional athletes, suddenly fall ill after the vaccine, correlation does = causation, or in the very least, should be taken very seriously that it could. So many people I know are hesitant because they weight the risks, and like I'd mentioned above, 3 people in my circle have been hit hard by the vaccine side effects and one so seriously that he ended up in the ICU.

I'm pro vaccine, but this one sided dialog and shaming people that are hesitant needs to stop.


As I said, if you don't have a lot of medical knowledge, you cannot jump to conclusions. Probably a good idea to read up more:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41569- ... -3?proof=t

Again, the rare adverse effects from the vaccine are being exhaustively studied and as the link I posted suggests, the likely cause is not the vaccine but improperly delivering it intravenously.
 
yonahleung
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:54 pm

I guess the solution is becoming obvious. In a public health system like the NHS, just set up two systems where resources are allocated according to the proportion of people with the particular vaccination status.
So, when there is 75% vaccinated and 25% unvaccinated. You give 75% of medical personnel and beds in a dedicated queue for the vaccinated, and the 25% of unvaccinated will go to the other queue with 25% of the resources.
This will be a much fairer allocation of resources so that the unvaccinated stop overwhelming the whole system (god knows whether they / Covid will hold out for another five years and with a life expectancy of 75, these Covid restrictions may end up consuming 10% of our lives).

The key is to hold people accountable to their own decisions. The vaccine hesitant thinks that a huge proportion of vaccine takers will be hospitalized/ killed by the vaccine, the vaccine takers thinks that a large number of vaccine hesitants will end up be hospitalized by Covid. So this is actually a good solution for all, both sides do not have to bear the cost of the (perceived) stupidity of the other camp and everyone can live in their separate spheres.
Last edited by yonahleung on Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:55 pm

lightsaber wrote:
fallap wrote:
lightsaber wrote:


What sort of stricter measures would you like to see implemented in Germany? :)

Anything to slow the spread.
1. A better quality mask requirement
2. Mandate more options for takeout essentials (e.g., curbside delivery). I know this is going on, but more mandates.
3. Since so much spread is in school kids and then kids to parents, mandatory vaccination ages 5+ to attend in person. Any school.

Some is just redo mass vaccination sites, including for child vaccinations. I am thankful both of my children are fully vaccinated. My preference would be for all in person classmates to be vaccinated (already required of adults). Not a stricter rule, but the system to administer vaccines needs help. In particular for kids vaccines in the quantities required.

As someone who just last week had a needed "elective surgery" to cure a post coronavirus symptom, I find it reprehensible that people are not taking responsibility for their actions, or more precisely, inaction in vaccination. We already know elective surgeries were postponed in Germany:
https://www.vanguardngr.com/2021/11/ger ... ds-faster/

I could list other areas also not doing elective surgeries due to lack of vaccinations and boosters (UK, New Mexico, Colorado, Michigan, Upstate New York).

What would you do to open the hospitals back up for elective surgeries? That is the minimum that should be accepted. I'd love to hear alternative, less punitive strategies that work. Please do not suggest what has obviously failed in the past.

Lightsaber


A layered approach is certainly the most effective. Japan has found success with the combination of vaccine + masking in public + social pressure to reduce close gatherings such as drinking parties.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:06 pm

A friendly reminder to provide links to your sources when stating facts or please make it clear you are stating your opinion. Thanks.
 
TriJets
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:11 pm

Redd wrote:
I just don't get how people don't understand vaccine hesitancy, especially in very fit and healthy people. There have been several athletes who have lost their careers, at least for the time being, due to adverse side effects of the vaccine, especially myocarditis. I personally know 3 people who've ended up in hospital after the vaccine, one of them fighting for his life in the ICU.

Now, this wouldn't be an issue if vaccine related illness and death was treated seriously, but you have issues like professional mountain biker Kyle Warner who had to put his career on hold, had a severe adverse reaction to the vaccine, and when he went to the emergency room the first time because his resting pulse rate was over 150, he was told he should go to a mental hospital because he's having a psychotic episode.

World Champion free diver Florian Dagoury was diagnosed with Myopericarditis as a result of the vaccine, and it looks like his career is done, over. Due solely to the vaccine.

What's scary isn't so much the bad side effects, it's the fact that no one is taking these people seriously, ignoring these stories, and many people are hesitant because they don't want to end up in that same position. Especially very healthy and fit people, generally know that Covid does not pose a risk to their health, so adding additional risk is not something that makes them comfortable.

Also, we've come so far in being able to treat Covid, and there doesn't seem to be anyone concentrating on treatment, especially for those that want to avoid the vaccine. There is a doctor in Poland that was treating Parkinsons patients with Amantadine when the pandemic broke out, and he noticed that none of the patients who contracted covid had any serious symptoms, and none needed hospitalization. He started prescribing it to all of his coivd patients, with somewhere a perfect success rate of keeping people out of the hospital, and the Polish government stopped him from the ability to practice. And made it almost impossible to get Amantadine prescribed.

Since then there have been proper scientific studies done, or ones that are currently in progress that show the same results. So why not just make this, and the other treatments, widely available?

And then there is the excuse "Well I got the vaccine and I feel perfectly fine". Well, that's great. I had covid, and felt a little weak for one day only, and I feel perfectly fine.

The issue here is choice, if someone gets the vaccine and dies or gets permanent lifelong illness, as many have, do any of you pushing the vaccine on everyone care? No, you don't care at all, that's the part you all ignore.

I'm vaccinated, by the way, so spare yourself that part of your response.


I work in healthcare. Since the start of the Pandemic I have treated too many COVID patients to count. Everything from people with mild cases who were just understandably nervous about COVID to people who died from the virus, and everything in between. In that same time period I have treated exactly one person who had a complaint due to the vaccine....a healthy young woman who fainted because she had a fear of needles. In my hospital system, at last check, of the 700+ patients who had died of COVID, less than 5 were fully vaccinated.

Are there adverse reactions to the vaccines? Of course. But they are tremendously rare. So rare that a person's odds of having a severe or even fatal bout with COVID dwarf them.

Last winter at my hospital, before vaccines were available for the general public, the surge absolutely decimated us. Our ICUs were at capacity, which was a major issue because we were a major receiving hospital that took on critical patients from across the state. We received a call from a hospital 500 miles away asking about a transfer for a severely ill middle-aged man with COVID who had no comorbidities but was now on a ventilator and needed ECMO just to have a chance at survival. We were the 10th hospital they called. We turned them down because we had a waiting list full of people just like him and nowhere to put him.

The ICUs are not filled with people with vaccine-related injuries. They are filled with unvaccinated COVID patients. People who take up critical ICU space and make it much more difficult for people who are suffering from heart attacks, strokes, vehicle accidents, etc. to receive care. People who are in the ICU because of their own choices who are now depriving others of medical care.

Without exception, every single person that was anti-vaccine that I have met also believed last year that COVID was fake. That we were "fudging the numbers" for some reason. That we were part of a conspiracy involving hundreds of thousands of healthcare workers. I used to feel bad for these people when they caught COVID and struggled to breathe, but now I feel nothing at all.
 
art
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:03 pm

TriJets wrote:
Redd wrote:
The ICUs are not filled with people with vaccine-related injuries. They are filled with unvaccinated COVID patients. People who take up critical ICU space and make it much more difficult for people who are suffering from heart attacks, strokes, vehicle accidents, etc. to receive care. People who are in the ICU because of their own choices who are now depriving others of medical care.

Sums it up nicely.

Question is: how long will society tolerate one tendency (the unvaxxed) causing so many problems to all, including the other tendency (the vaxxed)? The behaviour of a minority (allowing themselves to become avoidably ill with COVID-19) is preventing disease in all being treated.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:54 pm

fallap wrote:
Regardless, 5 million fatalities from a global pandemic having reached every single corner of the earth over the course of almost two years is in the mild end of the spectre if you ask me, and I find it difficult to see how we keep justifying lock-downs and other strict measures.


There is no other justification for lockdowns or other restrictions than to preserve the healthcare system. Sending people home to die because there are no hospital beds, doctors or nurses available is simply not acceptable.
When said excessive burden happens because a minority of people refuse to take the vaccine, thereby forcing the rest of society into more of these restrictive measures, it becomes quite understandable that there would be anger and resentment towards them.

I do not have any more appetite for these measures than you or anyone does, and I believe that there are a lot of places where governments have gone beyond their scope with unnecessary lockdowns and various restrictions. That said, the above problem remains and needs to be addressed. Doing nothing about it and trying to pretend that 'it's not that bad' will not magically empty hospital beds. Pushing vaccines are the only way to do this effectively and to bring us closer to endemicity.
The unvaccinated are delaying the end of this crisis for everyone.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:29 pm

art wrote:
TriJets wrote:
Redd wrote:
The ICUs are not filled with people with vaccine-related injuries. They are filled with unvaccinated COVID patients. People who take up critical ICU space and make it much more difficult for people who are suffering from heart attacks, strokes, vehicle accidents, etc. to receive care. People who are in the ICU because of their own choices who are now depriving others of medical care.

Sums it up nicely.

Question is: how long will society tolerate one tendency (the unvaxxed) causing so many problems to all, including the other tendency (the vaxxed)? The behaviour of a minority (allowing themselves to become avoidably ill with COVID-19) is preventing disease in all being treated.

A very nice summary that aligns with what my relatives and friends working the coronavirus wards have said.

As to how long the majority will make sacrifices for a minority who won't protect themselves? I think the mandates in Germany answer that; patience has run out. There is absolutely no reason a healthy (not-immuniosupressed) vaccinated person shouldn't live a "layered protection" / Swiss Cheese model active social life.

We're locking down to prevent unvaccinated from further filling hospitals. I see the crowded, masked, and vaccinated Christmas markets and smile knowing that is ok.

This disease is effectively endemic. I just wish we had younger kids vaccines. I'm happy my kids are fully vaccinated and now see parents with younger kids concerned. Until we close the loop on risk, mandates will happen people do not like.

The majority is losing patience.

Lightsaber
 
JJJ
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:19 pm

fallap wrote:
JJJ wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Didn’t realize that bodily autonomy and right to be secure in your person were dated individual rights. In China you’re absolutely correct about interpretation of such concepts being antiquated.

As implied above, why stop with just force vaccinating people. If we’re transitioning beyond such “silly” interpretations of individuals having the right to bodily autonomy and respect of person in service to greater society, there are a whole host new applications that would benefit the many: forced kidney removal, forced bone marrow removal, forced blood sampling, forced conscription of DNA samples from all citizens, forced partial liver removal, involuntary human challenge trials for medication, etc. Scoff at the notion if you’d like, but it was only earlier this year that we were all snorting and laughing at the anti-vaxxers conspiratorial and nonsense idea that the state was going to make them take the vaccine…yet here we are.


It's always the slippery slope. The hyperbole machine in full force.

Putting vaccination in the same category as genital mutilation or forced medical experimentation without batting an eye, even.

But sure "I've made my own research".


It's always the slippery slope because modern liberal democray, our individual freedoms and way of life are not a natural given. It's a complicated system that has taken centuries to form and perfect, one that must be taught and re-created for every generation. History is rich of democratic backsliding and already now we see democracy on the run across the globe. You may shrug your shoulders at me and flyguy89, but we are concerned because we in fact "have done our research" we know how precious freedom is, how easy they are to curb and how difficult they are to reclaim once taken away.


If you can say with a straight face that there's something more ominous waiting after mandating vaccination because lazy or conspiratorial people can't think beyond their personal comfort bubble we'll just have to agree to disagree here.
 
Redd
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:53 am

art wrote:
TriJets wrote:
Redd wrote:
The ICUs are not filled with people with vaccine-related injuries. They are filled with unvaccinated COVID patients. People who take up critical ICU space and make it much more difficult for people who are suffering from heart attacks, strokes, vehicle accidents, etc. to receive care. People who are in the ICU because of their own choices who are now depriving others of medical care.

Sums it up nicely.

Question is: how long will society tolerate one tendency (the unvaxxed) causing so many problems to all, including the other tendency (the vaxxed)? The behaviour of a minority (allowing themselves to become avoidably ill with COVID-19) is preventing disease in all being treated.


Maybe we should mandate mandatory exercise and a healthy diet as well? Fat and lazy unhealthy people are the ones hit hardest, not to mention such a huge strain and burden on the medical system as is, about 700k people in the USA alone die from cardiovascular complications, most if not almost all of that is preventable. According to the CDC about 96% of COVID deaths have an average of 2.6 comorbidities. We get people healthy, and we'll reduce the risk of covid deaths. It's a win-win situation!

You know, its a person's choice to be an alcoholic, drug addict, fat, lazy and unhealthy most of the time. I don't know why I have to pay for their health care out of my taxes if they decided to treat their own body as a dumpster, come to think of it, we shouldn't admit out of shape and overweight people to the hospitals at all. Those hospital beds in the ICU aren't being taken up by unvaccinated amateur athletes, I can tell you that much. No Vaccine? Out of shape and Over weight? You've made your choice! NO HEALTHCARE FOR YOU!

If you don't workout and exercise, and eat healthy, you shouldn't have the right to work, go to bars, clubs, concerts. We can use a social credit system like China to keep track of everyone's progress. That would make society healthier and less prone to being sick, right quick!

art wrote:
TriJets wrote:
Redd wrote:
The ICUs are not filled with people with vaccine-related injuries. They are filled with unvaccinated COVID patients. People who take up critical ICU space and make it much more difficult for people who are suffering from heart attacks, strokes, vehicle accidents, etc. to receive care. People who are in the ICU because of their own choices who are now depriving others of medical care.

Sums it up nicely.

Question is: how long will society tolerate one tendency (the unvaxxed) causing so many problems to all, including the other tendency (the vaxxed)? The behaviour of a minority (allowing themselves to become avoidably ill with COVID-19) is preventing disease in all being treated.



You misquoted me, I didn't write that.
Last edited by Redd on Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4209
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:57 am

Redd wrote:
art wrote:
TriJets wrote:

Sums it up nicely.

Question is: how long will society tolerate one tendency (the unvaxxed) causing so many problems to all, including the other tendency (the vaxxed)? The behaviour of a minority (allowing themselves to become avoidably ill with COVID-19) is preventing disease in all being treated.


Maybe we should mandate mandatory exercise and a healthy diet as well?!


Taxes on sugary drinks and tobacco are already there. So are labelling restrictions and limiting the use of certain words.
 
Redd
Posts: 1480
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:59 am

JJJ wrote:
Redd wrote:
art wrote:
Sums it up nicely.

Question is: how long will society tolerate one tendency (the unvaxxed) causing so many problems to all, including the other tendency (the vaxxed)? The behaviour of a minority (allowing themselves to become avoidably ill with COVID-19) is preventing disease in all being treated.


Maybe we should mandate mandatory exercise and a healthy diet as well?!


Taxes on sugary drinks and tobacco are already there. .


How do you think that's working out?
 
TriJets
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:13 pm

Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:09 am

Redd wrote:
art wrote:
TriJets wrote:

Sums it up nicely.

Question is: how long will society tolerate one tendency (the unvaxxed) causing so many problems to all, including the other tendency (the vaxxed)? The behaviour of a minority (allowing themselves to become avoidably ill with COVID-19) is preventing disease in all being treated.


Maybe we should mandate mandatory exercise and a healthy diet as well? Fat and lazy unhealthy people are the ones hit hardest, not to mention such a huge strain and burden on the medical system as is, about 700k people in the USA alone die from cardiovascular complications, most if not almost all of that is preventable. According to the CDC about 96% of COVID deaths have an average of 2.6 comorbidities. We get people healthy, and we'll reduce the risk of covid deaths. It's a win-win situation!

You know, its a person's choice to be an alcoholic, drug addict, fat, lazy and unhealthy most of the time. I don't know why I have to pay for their health care out of my taxes if they decided to treat their own body as a dumpster, come to think of it, we shouldn't admit out of shape and overweight people to the hospitals at all. Those hospital beds in the ICU aren't being taken up by unvaccinated amateur athletes, I can tell you that much. No Vaccine? Out of shape and Over weight? You've made your choice! NO HEALTHCARE FOR YOU!

If you don't workout and exercise, and eat healthy, you shouldn't have the right to work, go to bars, clubs, concerts. We can use a social credit system like China to keep track of everyone's progress. That would make society healthier and less prone to being sick, right quick!

art wrote:
TriJets wrote:

Sums it up nicely.

Question is: how long will society tolerate one tendency (the unvaxxed) causing so many problems to all, including the other tendency (the vaxxed)? The behaviour of a minority (allowing themselves to become avoidably ill with COVID-19) is preventing disease in all being treated.



You misquoted me, I didn't write that.


Obesity isn't contagious. Moreover, it takes 15 seconds to get a shot in the arm. It can take months or years to lose a significant amount of weight. The comparison is invalid.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:49 am

flyguy89 wrote:
Didn’t realize that bodily autonomy and right to be secure in your person were dated individual rights.

Didn’t republicans already prove that by trying to ban abortion regardless of the health effects on a woman or who the father is (eg in case of rapists).
 
JJJ
Posts: 4209
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:28 pm

Redd wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Redd wrote:

Maybe we should mandate mandatory exercise and a healthy diet as well?!


Taxes on sugary drinks and tobacco are already there. .


How do you think that's working out?


How would the torchbearers of freedom react if the state tried something more intrusive?

Governing is always a compromise, and people draw the lines in different places.

Running water fluoridation seems to work pretty well in the US. I guess it's because no one has been running "the Government is putting corrosive chemicals in your children's water" campaigns so far.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Germany Moves to Restrict Unvaccinated Citizens

Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:28 pm

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