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bpatus297
Posts: 646
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Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:54 pm

petertenthije wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
How many people are employed by Bezos, Musk, and Gates? Its more than a few.

How many of those would still be employed if Bezos, Musk and Gates had to pay more taxes. I don’t believe there would be mass layoffs, because the work needs to be done.

It might take Musk a few more weeks or even months (!) to get his private space station, that’s all that would happen.


So are you a tax the rich person? I am all for a flat tax or getting rid of income tax and moving to a national sales tax. The rate should not be dependent on how much you pay, it should be the same percentage for all people including the uber rich and dirt poor. I like the idea of a national sales tax since it would get a contribution from all people, including visitors, who are using services in that area.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5366
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Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:22 pm

If employers deliberately did not provide publically available alerts to workers they likely will be vulnerable to a lawsuit. I suspect that management had directives for dealing with a tornado alert and followed it. By the way the Cliff Mass blog briefly discusses alert information that was available, which he assesses as excellent, and the conveying of that information to the public which he believes could be much better. Smart phones can have a big impact, and not just in the obvious ways. It is a short read.

https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2021/12/ ... mment-form
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4498
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:23 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
So are you a tax the rich person?

I am in favour of everyone paying their share.

Start with getting rid of deductions and tax incentives.

That there is an entire industry of lobbyists and tax-lawyers means the system is too complicated and “easy” to circumvent.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 17810
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:24 pm

petertenthije wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
So are you a tax the rich person?

I am in favour of everyone paying their share.

Start with getting rid of deductions and tax incentives.

That there is an entire industry of lobbyists and tax-lawyers means the system is too complicated and “easy” to circumvent.


Or it just means it is intentionally complicated to serve the needs of that cottage industry and its clients.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:10 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
So are you a tax the rich person?

I am in favour of everyone paying their share.

Start with getting rid of deductions and tax incentives.

That there is an entire industry of lobbyists and tax-lawyers means the system is too complicated and “easy” to circumvent.


Or it just means it is intentionally complicated to serve the needs of that cottage industry and its clients.


THIS! A thousand times.
 
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c933103
Posts: 6414
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:23 pm

Francoflier wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I see many here reciting their Reagan, even though 40 years later his theories have obviously failed. Anyone seeing the trickling down from Bezos, Musk and Gates ?

As for automation (and offshoring) I'm not an engineer designing it, but I'm a technician putting it to use. I've no doubt what I'm doing will disappear in a few years, I'm confident I can do other things, but everyone isn't so lucky.


How many people are employed by Bezos, Musk, and Gates? Its more than a few. How many of those folks make a livable wage? How many folks are gainfully employed in businesses that support those three's businesses? It's not that they will give their money to other people, its that their success will support many many other people.


How many people a corporation employs is irrelevant. What matters to a society is overall employment levels and how well remunerated these employees are on average. The difference between a company that employs 50,000 and 10,000 companies that employ only 5 each only matters if these employees are rewarded differently. It used to be true that larger corporations would reward their employees better for a given job on average. I'm honestly not sure this is always the case anymore, especially when talking about companies like Amazon...

We have to stop idolizing and defending large corporations. They do play a role in the economy but SMEs are and always will be where the majority of a workforce lies within a nation and where the majority of the GDP is generated.

Any company will always seek to reduce labor costs and tax liabilities. Large corporations are much more efficient at doing so thanks to the inherent efficiencies that come with scale, the legal teams they can afford and the lobbying powers their money can buy... The first thing Musk tried to do with Tesla is to replace every single assembly line worker by a robot.
As such, you could easily make the case that the larger the company, the less it contributes to society compared to a group of SMEs employing the same amount of people (within the same industry as payroll/revenue ratios vary greatly depending on industry sectors). Especially when considering their tax-evasion capabilities.

Why would better economic of scale mean lesser it contribute to the society? Sure, it can gain more money because it make fewer losses. but those losses in efficiency by SME aren't "contributing to society".
 
bpatus297
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:25 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
So are you a tax the rich person?

I am in favour of everyone paying their share.

Start with getting rid of deductions and tax incentives.

That there is an entire industry of lobbyists and tax-lawyers means the system is too complicated and “easy” to circumvent.


Or it just means it is intentionally complicated to serve the needs of that cottage industry and its clients.


No argument from me on that. Is the main reason we wont see meaningful tax reform in our lifetime.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 17810
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:26 pm

c933103 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

How many people are employed by Bezos, Musk, and Gates? Its more than a few. How many of those folks make a livable wage? How many folks are gainfully employed in businesses that support those three's businesses? It's not that they will give their money to other people, its that their success will support many many other people.


How many people a corporation employs is irrelevant. What matters to a society is overall employment levels and how well remunerated these employees are on average. The difference between a company that employs 50,000 and 10,000 companies that employ only 5 each only matters if these employees are rewarded differently. It used to be true that larger corporations would reward their employees better for a given job on average. I'm honestly not sure this is always the case anymore, especially when talking about companies like Amazon...

We have to stop idolizing and defending large corporations. They do play a role in the economy but SMEs are and always will be where the majority of a workforce lies within a nation and where the majority of the GDP is generated.

Any company will always seek to reduce labor costs and tax liabilities. Large corporations are much more efficient at doing so thanks to the inherent efficiencies that come with scale, the legal teams they can afford and the lobbying powers their money can buy... The first thing Musk tried to do with Tesla is to replace every single assembly line worker by a robot.
As such, you could easily make the case that the larger the company, the less it contributes to society compared to a group of SMEs employing the same amount of people (within the same industry as payroll/revenue ratios vary greatly depending on industry sectors). Especially when considering their tax-evasion capabilities.

Why would better economic of scale mean lesser it contribute to the society? Sure, it can gain more money because it make fewer losses. but those losses in efficiency by SME aren't "contributing to society".


Mmmmmm no, have to disagree. Main street capitalism was a HUGE part of how the middle class grew in most of 20th century America. In the developing world it holds steady - people opening their own shops/trade services is great for society because it means families don't have to rely on another entity for income and 20 breadwinners are not competing with each other for the two open positions at a chain store.
 
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c933103
Posts: 6414
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:07 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:

How many people a corporation employs is irrelevant. What matters to a society is overall employment levels and how well remunerated these employees are on average. The difference between a company that employs 50,000 and 10,000 companies that employ only 5 each only matters if these employees are rewarded differently. It used to be true that larger corporations would reward their employees better for a given job on average. I'm honestly not sure this is always the case anymore, especially when talking about companies like Amazon...

We have to stop idolizing and defending large corporations. They do play a role in the economy but SMEs are and always will be where the majority of a workforce lies within a nation and where the majority of the GDP is generated.

Any company will always seek to reduce labor costs and tax liabilities. Large corporations are much more efficient at doing so thanks to the inherent efficiencies that come with scale, the legal teams they can afford and the lobbying powers their money can buy... The first thing Musk tried to do with Tesla is to replace every single assembly line worker by a robot.
As such, you could easily make the case that the larger the company, the less it contributes to society compared to a group of SMEs employing the same amount of people (within the same industry as payroll/revenue ratios vary greatly depending on industry sectors). Especially when considering their tax-evasion capabilities.

Why would better economic of scale mean lesser it contribute to the society? Sure, it can gain more money because it make fewer losses. but those losses in efficiency by SME aren't "contributing to society".


Mmmmmm no, have to disagree. Main street capitalism was a HUGE part of how the middle class grew in most of 20th century America. In the developing world it holds steady - people opening their own shops/trade services is great for society because it means families don't have to rely on another entity for income and 20 breadwinners are not competing with each other for the two open positions at a chain store.

As you said these small shops keep the economy steady - but steady doesn't mean contributing to the grow and development of the society.
 
Dogman
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:25 pm

If you think about a state as a system, in its most basic meaning, the current situation where the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer is just brining too much instability in the system. In more practical terms, you may reach a point when life would become too hard for too many people, and they would not care whether they live or die. Or even would prefer to die than live, when they thinks of many years ahead of them filled with hard labor, meagerly wages, and a destitute old age. So, rather to go through all that why not to have some fun, like looting that rich guy's villa? And if they get killed while doing this, well, for them it would be a sort of relief.
 
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c933103
Posts: 6414
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:33 pm

Dogman wrote:
If you think about a state as a system, in its most basic meaning, the current situation where the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer is just brining too much instability in the system. In more practical terms, you may reach a point when life would become too hard for too many people, and they would not care whether they live or die. Or even would prefer to die than live, when they thinks of many years ahead of them filled with hard labor, meagerly wages, and a destitute old age. So, rather to go through all that why not to have some fun, like looting that rich guy's villa? And if they get killed while doing this, well, for them it would be a sort of relief.

Problem is we now have a globalized economy and each states do not function as an independent system. So you can't just say the low wage labor needed to be paid more, companies will simply hire overseas instead, or automate them. Life becoming hard for low income earner in developed countries, due to their high standard of living, still mean they're earning a lot more than people in lesser developed countries.
 
Dogman
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:50 pm

c933103 wrote:
Problem is we now have a globalized economy and each states do not function as an independent system. So you can't just say the low wage labor needed to be paid more, companies will simply hire overseas instead, or automate them. Life becoming hard for low income earner in developed countries, due to their high standard of living, still mean they're earning a lot more than people in lesser developed countries.


It looks like you did not understand my point. It doesn't really matter how do you look at their lives. It matters how they look at it. Even if they earning a lot more than the people in the less developed countries it would give them no comfort if their lives are too hard and they have no hope. It's not purely theoretical to me. I was growing up in the USSR, and when it fell apart many of us who just started in the workforce had our life standards plummeted down. And the most crushing was that there was no hope ahead. And at that time I notices that many people with whom I was growing up started to get engaged into a lot of reckless activities. Excessive drinking, dangerous sports, unnecessary fights. A lot turned to crime, and of those most are non alive now. When talking about the dangers of their lives a very common answer was "well, at least it all will be over quick".
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 17810
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:59 pm

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Why would better economic of scale mean lesser it contribute to the society? Sure, it can gain more money because it make fewer losses. but those losses in efficiency by SME aren't "contributing to society".


Mmmmmm no, have to disagree. Main street capitalism was a HUGE part of how the middle class grew in most of 20th century America. In the developing world it holds steady - people opening their own shops/trade services is great for society because it means families don't have to rely on another entity for income and 20 breadwinners are not competing with each other for the two open positions at a chain store.

As you said these small shops keep the economy steady - but steady doesn't mean contributing to the grow and development of the society.


Perhaps the growth/health of society can be analyzed using metrics other than ‘efficiency gains’...
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 17810
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:01 am

c933103 wrote:
Dogman wrote:
If you think about a state as a system, in its most basic meaning, the current situation where the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer is just brining too much instability in the system. In more practical terms, you may reach a point when life would become too hard for too many people, and they would not care whether they live or die. Or even would prefer to die than live, when they thinks of many years ahead of them filled with hard labor, meagerly wages, and a destitute old age. So, rather to go through all that why not to have some fun, like looting that rich guy's villa? And if they get killed while doing this, well, for them it would be a sort of relief.

Problem is we now have a globalized economy and each states do not function as an independent system. So you can't just say the low wage labor needed to be paid more, companies will simply hire overseas instead, or automate them. Life becoming hard for low income earner in developed countries, due to their high standard of living, still mean they're earning a lot more than people in lesser developed countries.


Nobody in that situation cares if they are earning more than people in lesser developed countries. People see their immediate situation and surroundings, where COL and QOL are interrelated.
 
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c933103
Posts: 6414
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:20 pm

Dogman wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Problem is we now have a globalized economy and each states do not function as an independent system. So you can't just say the low wage labor needed to be paid more, companies will simply hire overseas instead, or automate them. Life becoming hard for low income earner in developed countries, due to their high standard of living, still mean they're earning a lot more than people in lesser developed countries.


It looks like you did not understand my point. It doesn't really matter how do you look at their lives. It matters how they look at it. Even if they earning a lot more than the people in the less developed countries it would give them no comfort if their lives are too hard and they have no hope. It's not purely theoretical to me. I was growing up in the USSR, and when it fell apart many of us who just started in the workforce had our life standards plummeted down. And the most crushing was that there was no hope ahead. And at that time I notices that many people with whom I was growing up started to get engaged into a lot of reckless activities. Excessive drinking, dangerous sports, unnecessary fights. A lot turned to crime, and of those most are non alive now. When talking about the dangers of their lives a very common answer was "well, at least it all will be over quick".


Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Dogman wrote:
If you think about a state as a system, in its most basic meaning, the current situation where the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer is just brining too much instability in the system. In more practical terms, you may reach a point when life would become too hard for too many people, and they would not care whether they live or die. Or even would prefer to die than live, when they thinks of many years ahead of them filled with hard labor, meagerly wages, and a destitute old age. So, rather to go through all that why not to have some fun, like looting that rich guy's villa? And if they get killed while doing this, well, for them it would be a sort of relief.

Problem is we now have a globalized economy and each states do not function as an independent system. So you can't just say the low wage labor needed to be paid more, companies will simply hire overseas instead, or automate them. Life becoming hard for low income earner in developed countries, due to their high standard of living, still mean they're earning a lot more than people in lesser developed countries.


Nobody in that situation cares if they are earning more than people in lesser developed countries. People see their immediate situation and surroundings, where COL and QOL are interrelated.


Dogman, you were talking about the situation and I was talking about the problem behind such situation. Which are not mutually exclusive. Indeed what I mentioned isn't what people would even cross their own mind when they're in such a situation, but it is factors like globalization, automation, outsourcing, and such that caused the current situation, which ended up become the trouble of life of common people. I cannot think of any easy way to fix this and I do not think this is something that can just go away, but at least the background should be recognized before any proposal can be surfaced to solve such problem.
 
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c933103
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Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:24 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Mmmmmm no, have to disagree. Main street capitalism was a HUGE part of how the middle class grew in most of 20th century America. In the developing world it holds steady - people opening their own shops/trade services is great for society because it means families don't have to rely on another entity for income and 20 breadwinners are not competing with each other for the two open positions at a chain store.

As you said these small shops keep the economy steady - but steady doesn't mean contributing to the grow and development of the society.


Perhaps the growth/health of society can be analyzed using metrics other than ‘efficiency gains’...

People in developing countries are aspiring - They do not accept the life they are currently having - Hence they would growth. If the developed world don't grow, then the limited amount of global resource will flow from developed countries to developing countries trying to develop themselves - and end up making the life of regular people in developed countries worse.

It is not a zero-sum game if the world as a whole is growing and developing, but it doesn't appears to be the case now, and actually ever since the 1973 oil crisis, as the energy consumption per capita figure I cited above.
 
Dogman
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:47 pm

c933103 wrote:

Dogman, you were talking about the situation and I was talking about the problem behind such situation. Which are not mutually exclusive. Indeed what I mentioned isn't what people would even cross their own mind when they're in such a situation, but it is factors like globalization, automation, outsourcing, and such that caused the current situation, which ended up become the trouble of life of common people. I cannot think of any easy way to fix this and I do not think this is something that can just go away, but at least the background should be recognized before any proposal can be surfaced to solve such problem.


Oh, lots of people know what can be done. And it's getting done in most of the developed countries. There is just no political will to do it in the US, for various reasons.
 
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c933103
Posts: 6414
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Are we entering a new "workers" era?

Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:17 pm

Dogman wrote:
c933103 wrote:

Dogman, you were talking about the situation and I was talking about the problem behind such situation. Which are not mutually exclusive. Indeed what I mentioned isn't what people would even cross their own mind when they're in such a situation, but it is factors like globalization, automation, outsourcing, and such that caused the current situation, which ended up become the trouble of life of common people. I cannot think of any easy way to fix this and I do not think this is something that can just go away, but at least the background should be recognized before any proposal can be surfaced to solve such problem.


Oh, lots of people know what can be done. And it's getting done in most of the developed countries. There is just no political will to do it in the US, for various reasons.

Looking from Asia, I don't think most countries' efforts can actually help most of their country working population sail pass the era smoothly, even tho some are better than others.

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