[URL unfurl="true"]https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/First-death-from-omicron-variant-reported-in-U.K[/URL]

"Sadly, at least one patient has now been confirmed to have died with omicron," Johnson said. "So I think the idea that this is somehow a milder version of the virus -- I think that's something we need to set on one side -- and just recognize the sheer pace at which it accelerates through the population."

The first death from the Omicron variant of the coronavirus has been reported in the UK. There have been a number of news reports and rumors that the government is preparing for a lockdown in the coming weeks but is trying to avoid Christmas fearing voter backlash. It was reported by British medial authorities that those vaccinated with two shots can still be overcome with Omicron.

More hysterical nonsense. Politicians can do what they like, people have stopped listening. I certainly have.

77Phoebe wrote:

More hysterical nonsense. Politicians can do what they like, people have stopped listening. I certainly have.

Well luckily not everyone is like that. When the NHS is on it's knees according to the Chief Medical Examer, and they are expecting things only to get worse to say you'll ignore anything they say is quite frankly stupid.

The Tory back bench are apparently tomorrow not going to vote for the latest rules which would allow places to only allow people in if they are vaccinated or recovered. Apparently this is a 'vaccine passport' and was described this morning by one Tory MP as something Nazi Germany would do. Which is an utterly appalling thing to say by itself but obviously shows he doesn't have a clue because here in Germany, the country most aware of its past and dangers put in place a law a month or so ago which does exactly that - you cannot enter shops, gyms, public offices etc unless you are vaccinated or recovered. You're not even allowed on public transport in my state if you are unvaccinated. (that is if infection rates are over a certain level).

The UK went through the summer with no mask mandates, and still had infection rates measured in the hundreds per 100,000. Nothing changed. The rest of Europe was getting by with 10's per 100,000. Now Omicron is here and you're all going nuts about wearing masks again and maybe stopping some people from going in shops who refuse to be vaccinated. Honestly it's pathetic. When the NHS cannot cope, critical cancer ops are being stopped because of it... well. It's time someone stepped up to the plate and made the right decisions on public health. over 90% of those in hospital over here are unvaccinated.

Reinhardt wrote:

The UK went through the summer with no mask mandates, and still had infection rates measured in the hundreds per 100,000. Nothing changed. The rest of Europe was getting by with 10's per 100,000. Now Omicron is here and you're all going nuts about wearing masks again and maybe stopping some people from going in shops who refuse to be vaccinated. Honestly it's pathetic. When the NHS cannot cope, critical cancer ops are being stopped because of it... well. It's time someone stepped up to the plate and made the right decisions on public health. over 90% of those in hospital over here are unvaccinated.

UK's regulations to slow transmission (masks, social distancing etc) are announced but not enforced, so they are largely ignored. For example, you MUST wear a mask on a bus but anyone who is not wearing a mask is still allowed to get on the bus. As you say, it's pathetic. Predictions are that the fairly steady daily case numbers of the last 2 or 3 months here will very quickly increase by 200%/300%/400%. Too late to expect people to start observing regulations after nearly 2 years of getting away with flouting them.

art wrote:

Reinhardt wrote:

The UK went through the summer with no mask mandates, and still had infection rates measured in the hundreds per 100,000. Nothing changed. The rest of Europe was getting by with 10's per 100,000. Now Omicron is here and you're all going nuts about wearing masks again and maybe stopping some people from going in shops who refuse to be vaccinated. Honestly it's pathetic. When the NHS cannot cope, critical cancer ops are being stopped because of it... well. It's time someone stepped up to the plate and made the right decisions on public health. over 90% of those in hospital over here are unvaccinated.

UK's regulations to slow transmission (masks, social distancing etc) are announced but not enforced, so they are largely ignored. For example, you MUST wear a mask on a bus but anyone who is not wearing a mask is still allowed to get on the bus. As you say, it's pathetic. Predictions are that the fairly steady daily case numbers of the last 2 or 3 months here will very quickly increase by 200%/300%/400%. Too late to expect people to start observing regulations after nearly 2 years of getting away with flouting them.

The rules are justifiably ignored, because no-one can see any worthwhile benefit to follow them. THEY DO NOT WORK. There is no correlation between enforcement and less cases. Two years later here we are, most countries in the world have Omicron in them despite of mitigation. It will continue forever.

People will have to die, because that's what happens in a pandemic. All we are doing now is damaging the children of the country and adding endless unnecessary cancer and heart disease deaths to the total.

Reinhardt wrote:

77Phoebe wrote:

More hysterical nonsense. Politicians can do what they like, people have stopped listening. I certainly have.

Well luckily not everyone is like that. When the NHS is on it's knees according to the Chief Medical Examer, and they are expecting things only to get worse to say you'll ignore anything they say is quite frankly stupid.

The Tory back bench are apparently tomorrow not going to vote for the latest rules which would allow places to only allow people in if they are vaccinated or recovered. Apparently this is a 'vaccine passport' and was described this morning by one Tory MP as something Nazi Germany would do. Which is an utterly appalling thing to say by itself but obviously shows he doesn't have a clue because here in Germany, the country most aware of its past and dangers put in place a law a month or so ago which does exactly that - you cannot enter shops, gyms, public offices etc unless you are vaccinated or recovered. You're not even allowed on public transport in my state if you are unvaccinated. (that is if infection rates are over a certain level).

The UK went through the summer with no mask mandates, and still had infection rates measured in the hundreds per 100,000. Nothing changed. The rest of Europe was getting by with 10's per 100,000. Now Omicron is here and you're all going nuts about wearing masks again and maybe stopping some people from going in shops who refuse to be vaccinated. Honestly it's pathetic. When the NHS cannot cope, critical cancer ops are being stopped because of it... well. It's time someone stepped up to the plate and made the right decisions on public health. over 90% of those in hospital over here are unvaccinated.

If enough were vaccinated, the UK wouldn't have a backlog of 6 million elective surgeries.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... dline.html

The deniers will never take responsibility. No medical system is designed to handle this level of surge. This is such a big problem, almost globally, that more will have to be done. On the other hand, getting 50 million jabs into arms will do the greatest good for the system in the UK.

The question is, what is the Omicron time delay between infection and hospitalizations. It seems to be 3 weeks instead of the rapid Delta infection to hospitalization in a week, in my opinion. With a disease that grows by 17.5 cases per million per day (in undertesting South Africa) and a long lag time between infection and hospitalizations, the actions seem appropriate.
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/co ... ry=GBR~ZAF

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

Reinhardt wrote:

77Phoebe wrote:

More hysterical nonsense. Politicians can do what they like, people have stopped listening. I certainly have.

Well luckily not everyone is like that. When the NHS is on it's knees according to the Chief Medical Examer, and they are expecting things only to get worse to say you'll ignore anything they say is quite frankly stupid.

The Tory back bench are apparently tomorrow not going to vote for the latest rules which would allow places to only allow people in if they are vaccinated or recovered. Apparently this is a 'vaccine passport' and was described this morning by one Tory MP as something Nazi Germany would do. Which is an utterly appalling thing to say by itself but obviously shows he doesn't have a clue because here in Germany, the country most aware of its past and dangers put in place a law a month or so ago which does exactly that - you cannot enter shops, gyms, public offices etc unless you are vaccinated or recovered. You're not even allowed on public transport in my state if you are unvaccinated. (that is if infection rates are over a certain level).

The UK went through the summer with no mask mandates, and still had infection rates measured in the hundreds per 100,000. Nothing changed. The rest of Europe was getting by with 10's per 100,000. Now Omicron is here and you're all going nuts about wearing masks again and maybe stopping some people from going in shops who refuse to be vaccinated. Honestly it's pathetic. When the NHS cannot cope, critical cancer ops are being stopped because of it... well. It's time someone stepped up to the plate and made the right decisions on public health. over 90% of those in hospital over here are unvaccinated.

If enough were vaccinated, the UK wouldn't have a backlog of 6 million elective surgeries.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... dline.html

The deniers will never take responsibility. No medical system is designed to handle this level of surge. This is such a big problem, almost globally, that more will have to be done. On the other hand, getting 50 million jabs into arms will do the greatest good for the system in the UK.

The question is, what is the Omicron time delay between infection and hospitalizations. It seems to be 3 weeks instead of the rapid Delta infection to hospitalization in a week, in my opinion. With a disease that grows by 17.5 cases per million per day (in undertesting South Africa) and a long lag time between infection and hospitalizations, the actions seem appropriate.
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/co ... ry=GBR~ZAF

Lightsaber

There just isn't enough data to compare yet at this point IMO. ZA and the UK are too different in terms of vax rates, age of population, and quality of health systems/testing to really compare meaningfully.

Aaron747 wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Reinhardt wrote:

Well luckily not everyone is like that. When the NHS is on it's knees according to the Chief Medical Examer, and they are expecting things only to get worse to say you'll ignore anything they say is quite frankly stupid.

The Tory back bench are apparently tomorrow not going to vote for the latest rules which would allow places to only allow people in if they are vaccinated or recovered. Apparently this is a 'vaccine passport' and was described this morning by one Tory MP as something Nazi Germany would do. Which is an utterly appalling thing to say by itself but obviously shows he doesn't have a clue because here in Germany, the country most aware of its past and dangers put in place a law a month or so ago which does exactly that - you cannot enter shops, gyms, public offices etc unless you are vaccinated or recovered. You're not even allowed on public transport in my state if you are unvaccinated. (that is if infection rates are over a certain level).

The UK went through the summer with no mask mandates, and still had infection rates measured in the hundreds per 100,000. Nothing changed. The rest of Europe was getting by with 10's per 100,000. Now Omicron is here and you're all going nuts about wearing masks again and maybe stopping some people from going in shops who refuse to be vaccinated. Honestly it's pathetic. When the NHS cannot cope, critical cancer ops are being stopped because of it... well. It's time someone stepped up to the plate and made the right decisions on public health. over 90% of those in hospital over here are unvaccinated.

If enough were vaccinated, the UK wouldn't have a backlog of 6 million elective surgeries.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... dline.html

The deniers will never take responsibility. No medical system is designed to handle this level of surge. This is such a big problem, almost globally, that more will have to be done. On the other hand, getting 50 million jabs into arms will do the greatest good for the system in the UK.

The question is, what is the Omicron time delay between infection and hospitalizations. It seems to be 3 weeks instead of the rapid Delta infection to hospitalization in a week, in my opinion. With a disease that grows by 17.5 cases per million per day (in undertesting South Africa) and a long lag time between infection and hospitalizations, the actions seem appropriate.
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/co ... ry=GBR~ZAF

Lightsaber

There just isn't enough data to compare yet at this point IMO. ZA and the UK are too different in terms of vax rates, age of population, and quality of health systems/testing to really compare meaningfully.

I agree there isn't enough data. However, since one must react 3+ weeks ahead of time, there are two choices:
1. Potentially over-react
2. Force the medical field to handle 64x more patients.

South Africa is young. That will skew the numbers. So why are the excess deaths so high and why did they double in a week?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medica ... NewsSearch

The UK will be the first to really find out how Omicron impacts an older, overweight population. So far, the best track record is to over-react early.

77Phoebe wrote:

More hysterical nonsense. Politicians can do what they like, people have stopped listening. I certainly have.

At this point many know the economy can't take another hit like last year so a lockdown is not the best idea.

77Phoebe wrote:

The rules are justifiably ignored, because no-one can see any worthwhile benefit to follow them. THEY DO NOT WORK. There is no correlation between enforcement and less cases. Two years later here we are, most countries in the world have Omicron in them despite of mitigation. It will continue forever.

People will have to die, because that's what happens in a pandemic. All we are doing now is damaging the children of the country and adding endless unnecessary cancer and heart disease deaths to the total.

Rubbish. All the data in countries that had strict rules that were adhered to showed direct colleration. That was not just mask use but everything else that EVERY expert said had to happen at the same time - regular ventilation and social distancing. Over the summer here rates dropped (naturally because more people were outside). Winter as always means more people inside, colder weather so easier to spread.

What we are doing now is trying to stop health services becoming overloaded, because they are flooded (here and the UK) with the unvaccinated. Omicron isn't helping because it's seemingly so much more transmissible but too early to say if it's more deadly. So far seems it's less.

77Phoebe wrote:

The NHS is useless, has been for years. The NHS has LESS beds now than the start of the pandemic. That's not me, or the unvaccinated, it's the NHS, it's had billions of pounds thrown at it and has yet again failed. Again. What has it been doing?

Underfunding for decades. Mis-managed. Mass re-organisation by every political party. No long term vision.

Wrong, it's done the best it could do despite the governments best efforts to sabotage it. It want's the privatise the NHS. I wouldn't put it past them deliberately putting it in jeopordy so it it can tell everyone how wonderful it will be when private companies (i.e their mates) are running it.

Reinhardt wrote:

77Phoebe wrote:

The rules are justifiably ignored, because no-one can see any worthwhile benefit to follow them. THEY DO NOT WORK. There is no correlation between enforcement and less cases. Two years later here we are, most countries in the world have Omicron in them despite of mitigation. It will continue forever.

People will have to die, because that's what happens in a pandemic. All we are doing now is damaging the children of the country and adding endless unnecessary cancer and heart disease deaths to the total.

Rubbish. All the data in countries that had strict rules that were adhered to showed direct colleration. That was not just mask use but everything else that EVERY expert said had to happen at the same time - regular ventilation and social distancing. Over the summer here rates dropped (naturally because more people were outside). Winter as always means more people inside, colder weather so easier to spread.

What we are doing now is trying to stop health services becoming overloaded, because they are flooded (here and the UK) with the unvaccinated. Omicron isn't helping because it's seemingly so much more transmissible but too early to say if it's more deadly.

Just nonsense. Doing the same thing again, and again, and again. Expecting a different result every time, madness. Covid waves come and go over all countries no matter what their lockdown/ mask/ opening a window status is. Anyway what I or you think is irrelevant people have had enough and moved on.

77Phoebe wrote:

Reinhardt wrote:

77Phoebe wrote:

The rules are justifiably ignored, because no-one can see any worthwhile benefit to follow them. THEY DO NOT WORK. There is no correlation between enforcement and less cases. Two years later here we are, most countries in the world have Omicron in them despite of mitigation. It will continue forever.

People will have to die, because that's what happens in a pandemic. All we are doing now is damaging the children of the country and adding endless unnecessary cancer and heart disease deaths to the total.

Rubbish. All the data in countries that had strict rules that were adhered to showed direct colleration. That was not just mask use but everything else that EVERY expert said had to happen at the same time - regular ventilation and social distancing. Over the summer here rates dropped (naturally because more people were outside). Winter as always means more people inside, colder weather so easier to spread.

What we are doing now is trying to stop health services becoming overloaded, because they are flooded (here and the UK) with the unvaccinated. Omicron isn't helping because it's seemingly so much more transmissible but too early to say if it's more deadly.

Just nonsense. Doing the same thing again, and again, and again. Expecting a different result every time, madness. Covid waves come and go over all countries no matter what their lockdown/ mask/ opening a window status is. Anyway what I or you think is irrelevant people have had enough and moved on.

If people just move on, they bear the responsibility. Hospitals are struggling with another surge. This should be over, but people will not vaccinate.

I have a relative leading a coronavirus ward. The hospital has a capacity of 40 coronavirus patients. They currently have 53 patients, 86% unvaccinated.
https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/datadashboard/

Please read the links on the sacrifices the UK healthcare is going through and excess deaths in South Africa. They are in my last post.

I agree people are done behaving. I'm in Southern California and walking by I would estimate the bars are 80% full and 100% unmasked, no vaccine checks. You express a "solution" that ensures everyone gets Omicron. So it happens.
Croatia showed how case fatality rates spike when the government doesn't get ahead of this. Israel has shown high vaccination rates+boosters really help allow normal life.

In January, *everyone* in the UK gets to assume everyone else is boosted. It will be life back at normal, with few consequences for the boosted.

Lightsaber

Aaron747 wrote:

There just isn't enough data to compare yet at this point IMO. ZA and the UK are too different in terms of vax rates, age of population, and quality of health systems/testing to really compare meaningfully.

Worth looking at UK omicron data in coming weeks. Omicron is expected to displace delta in UK almost entirely this month. The goalposts are not moving much - 1st and 2nd doses have almost stopped being delivered here. Against this stable background it could be easy to make a near like for like comparison of the effects of omicron and of delta on the unvaccinated, single and double dosed.

lightsaber wrote:

77Phoebe wrote:

Reinhardt wrote:

Rubbish. All the data in countries that had strict rules that were adhered to showed direct colleration. That was not just mask use but everything else that EVERY expert said had to happen at the same time - regular ventilation and social distancing. Over the summer here rates dropped (naturally because more people were outside). Winter as always means more people inside, colder weather so easier to spread.

What we are doing now is trying to stop health services becoming overloaded, because they are flooded (here and the UK) with the unvaccinated. Omicron isn't helping because it's seemingly so much more transmissible but too early to say if it's more deadly.

Just nonsense. Doing the same thing again, and again, and again. Expecting a different result every time, madness. Covid waves come and go over all countries no matter what their lockdown/ mask/ opening a window status is. Anyway what I or you think is irrelevant people have had enough and moved on.

If people just move on, they bear the responsibility. Hospitals are struggling with another surge. This should be over, but people will not vaccinate.

I have a relative leading a coronavirus ward. The hospital has a capacity of 40 coronavirus patients. They currently have 53 patients, 86% unvaccinated.
https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/datadashboard/

Please read the links on the sacrifices the UK healthcare is going through and excess deaths in South Africa. They are in my last post.

I agree people are done behaving. I'm in Southern California and walking by I would estimate the bars are 80% full and 100% unmasked, no vaccine checks. You express a "solution" that ensures everyone gets Omicron. So it happens.
Croatia showed how case fatality rates spike when the government doesn't get ahead of this. Israel has shown high vaccination rates+boosters really help allow normal life.

In January, *everyone* in the UK gets to assume everyone else is boosted. It will be life back at normal, with few consequences for the boosted.

Lightsaber

Most people in the UK are vaccinated. There is not a strong Anti-Vaxx sentiment in Britain (apart from the obvious lunatic s) here most people are happy to have the Vaccine and Booster. The only hesitancy I've observed is with the Eastern Europeans I work with.

The general attitude I see is : "We stayed at home for 18 months on and off. We have had the Vaccine and the booster, now it's time to crack on - we've done our bit."

And I agree with that. It's utterly reasonable. We've negatively affected too many young people for the elderly and unhealthy.

lightsaber wrote:

77Phoebe wrote:

Reinhardt wrote:

Rubbish. All the data in countries that had strict rules that were adhered to showed direct colleration. That was not just mask use but everything else that EVERY expert said had to happen at the same time - regular ventilation and social distancing. Over the summer here rates dropped (naturally because more people were outside). Winter as always means more people inside, colder weather so easier to spread.

What we are doing now is trying to stop health services becoming overloaded, because they are flooded (here and the UK) with the unvaccinated. Omicron isn't helping because it's seemingly so much more transmissible but too early to say if it's more deadly.

Just nonsense. Doing the same thing again, and again, and again. Expecting a different result every time, madness. Covid waves come and go over all countries no matter what their lockdown/ mask/ opening a window status is. Anyway what I or you think is irrelevant people have had enough and moved on.

If people just move on, they bear the responsibility. Hospitals are struggling with another surge. This should be over, but people will not vaccinate.

I have a relative leading a coronavirus ward. The hospital has a capacity of 40 coronavirus patients. They currently have 53 patients, 86% unvaccinated.
https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/datadashboard/

Please read the links on the sacrifices the UK healthcare is going through and excess deaths in South Africa. They are in my last post.

I agree people are done behaving. I'm in Southern California and walking by I would estimate the bars are 80% full and 100% unmasked, no vaccine checks. You express a "solution" that ensures everyone gets Omicron. So it happens.
Croatia showed how case fatality rates spike when the government doesn't get ahead of this. Israel has shown high vaccination rates+boosters really help allow normal life.

In January, *everyone* in the UK gets to assume everyone else is boosted. It will be life back at normal, with few consequences for the boosted.

Lightsaber

I honestly don't know what to believe after reading that article, as they're still referring to doctors in SA saying cases have been "mild".

I bet we'll be right back here next year. Time to get out of civil aviation.

77Phoebe wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

77Phoebe wrote:

Just nonsense. Doing the same thing again, and again, and again. Expecting a different result every time, madness. Covid waves come and go over all countries no matter what their lockdown/ mask/ opening a window status is. Anyway what I or you think is irrelevant people have had enough and moved on.

If people just move on, they bear the responsibility. Hospitals are struggling with another surge. This should be over, but people will not vaccinate.

I have a relative leading a coronavirus ward. The hospital has a capacity of 40 coronavirus patients. They currently have 53 patients, 86% unvaccinated.
https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/datadashboard/

Please read the links on the sacrifices the UK healthcare is going through and excess deaths in South Africa. They are in my last post.

I agree people are done behaving. I'm in Southern California and walking by I would estimate the bars are 80% full and 100% unmasked, no vaccine checks. You express a "solution" that ensures everyone gets Omicron. So it happens.
Croatia showed how case fatality rates spike when the government doesn't get ahead of this. Israel has shown high vaccination rates+boosters really help allow normal life.

In January, *everyone* in the UK gets to assume everyone else is boosted. It will be life back at normal, with few consequences for the boosted.

Lightsaber

Most people in the UK are vaccinated. There is not a strong Anti-Vaxx sentiment in Britain (apart from the obvious lunatic s) here most people are happy to have the Vaccine and Booster. The only hesitancy I've observed is with the Eastern Europeans I work with.

The general attitude I see is : "We stayed at home for 18 months on and off. We have had the Vaccine and the booster, now it's time to crack on - we've done our bit."

And I agree with that. It's utterly reasonable. We've negatively affected too many young people for the elderly and unhealthy.

I agree with the general attitude, as long as they give a few more weeks for kids to be vaccinated and boosters. e.g., I had a child with a cold (only a cold), so my post operation medical visit will be telemedicine as I won't want to give the vulnerable a cold (although, I doubt I caught it, just in case).

I don't actually care anymore why people avoid vaccines. We're all going to get this. The vaccinated are adopting the unvaccinated's carefree attitude. I'm not there yet, but on my way.

I really feel for the medical staff. I don't know the UK numbers, but for Colorado, 86% of the hospitalized are unvacs:
https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/datadashboard/

I honestly believe this would be past concern if everyone was willing to vaccinate. Why the UK doesn't have a big anti-vac presence, it seems to unfortunately be enough.

Omicron grows at an insane rate. Within 4 days it should be the dominant variant in the UK (I estimate between December 20th and 30th in the USA). We'll find out how this goes soon enough. I predict *fast*.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

Omicron grows at an insane rate. Within 4 days it should be the dominant variant in the UK (I estimate between December 20th and 30th in the USA). We'll find out how this goes soon enough. I predict *fast*.

Lightsaber

To me the best thing at this juncture - apart from COVID-19 not existing - would be if omicron were very mild in its effect on people and infected every Tom, Dick and Harry on the planet. That it is much more transmissable than delta seems to be clear. As for the severity of the disease it brings, only time will tell. Hopefully not much time.

lightsaber wrote:

77Phoebe wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

If people just move on, they bear the responsibility. Hospitals are struggling with another surge. This should be over, but people will not vaccinate.

I have a relative leading a coronavirus ward. The hospital has a capacity of 40 coronavirus patients. They currently have 53 patients, 86% unvaccinated.
https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/datadashboard/

Please read the links on the sacrifices the UK healthcare is going through and excess deaths in South Africa. They are in my last post.

I agree people are done behaving. I'm in Southern California and walking by I would estimate the bars are 80% full and 100% unmasked, no vaccine checks. You express a "solution" that ensures everyone gets Omicron. So it happens.
Croatia showed how case fatality rates spike when the government doesn't get ahead of this. Israel has shown high vaccination rates+boosters really help allow normal life.

In January, *everyone* in the UK gets to assume everyone else is boosted. It will be life back at normal, with few consequences for the boosted.

Lightsaber

Most people in the UK are vaccinated. There is not a strong Anti-Vaxx sentiment in Britain (apart from the obvious lunatic s) here most people are happy to have the Vaccine and Booster. The only hesitancy I've observed is with the Eastern Europeans I work with.

The general attitude I see is : "We stayed at home for 18 months on and off. We have had the Vaccine and the booster, now it's time to crack on - we've done our bit."

And I agree with that. It's utterly reasonable. We've negatively affected too many young people for the elderly and unhealthy.

I agree with the general attitude, as long as they give a few more weeks for kids to be vaccinated and boosters. e.g., I had a child with a cold (only a cold), so my post operation medical visit will be telemedicine as I won't want to give the vulnerable a cold (although, I doubt I caught it, just in case).

I don't actually care anymore why people avoid vaccines. We're all going to get this. The vaccinated are adopting the unvaccinated's carefree attitude. I'm not there yet, but on my way.

I really feel for the medical staff. I don't know the UK numbers, but for Colorado, 86% of the hospitalized are unvacs:
https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/datadashboard/

I honestly believe this would be past concern if everyone was willing to vaccinate. Why the UK doesn't have a big anti-vac presence, it seems to unfortunately be enough.

Omicron grows at an insane rate. Within 4 days it should be the dominant variant in the UK (I estimate between December 20th and 30th in the USA). We'll find out how this goes soon enough. I predict *fast*.

Lightsaber

I think the percentage of covid patients in hospital is about 3/4 ARE jabbed, but that is to be expected because much more people are jabbed than aren't. But I may be wrong.

The problem with vaccine take up in the UK is primarily with the Black and South Asian populations. If you look at any map the big problem areas are London, Manchester, Birmingham and Leicester - the areas with high immegrant populations. So, for political reasons the Government obviously treads very carefully.

I'm in two minds over the vaccination of children. As children are barely affected by Covid it seems unfair for them to be put at risk of bad reactions to the jab. Clearly the vulnerable should, but I'm not sure about jabbing them to keep others safe, it seems to me to be morally ambiguous. We've decided to let our own children decide, and they say they want to have it so they will - but only because they say they want to go on holiday.

77Phoebe wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

77Phoebe wrote:

Just nonsense. Doing the same thing again, and again, and again. Expecting a different result every time, madness. Covid waves come and go over all countries no matter what their lockdown/ mask/ opening a window status is. Anyway what I or you think is irrelevant people have had enough and moved on.

If people just move on, they bear the responsibility. Hospitals are struggling with another surge. This should be over, but people will not vaccinate.

I have a relative leading a coronavirus ward. The hospital has a capacity of 40 coronavirus patients. They currently have 53 patients, 86% unvaccinated.
https://health.mesacounty.us/covid19/datadashboard/

Please read the links on the sacrifices the UK healthcare is going through and excess deaths in South Africa. They are in my last post.

I agree people are done behaving. I'm in Southern California and walking by I would estimate the bars are 80% full and 100% unmasked, no vaccine checks. You express a "solution" that ensures everyone gets Omicron. So it happens.
Croatia showed how case fatality rates spike when the government doesn't get ahead of this. Israel has shown high vaccination rates+boosters really help allow normal life.

In January, *everyone* in the UK gets to assume everyone else is boosted. It will be life back at normal, with few consequences for the boosted.

Lightsaber

Most people in the UK are vaccinated. There is not a strong Anti-Vaxx sentiment in Britain (apart from the obvious lunatic s) here most people are happy to have the Vaccine and Booster. The only hesitancy I've observed is with the Eastern Europeans I work with.

The general attitude I see is : "We stayed at home for 18 months on and off. We have had the Vaccine and the booster, now it's time to crack on - we've done our bit."

And I agree with that. It's utterly reasonable. We've negatively affected too many young people for the elderly and unhealthy.

Yet the problem is, under current condition, Omicron have a reproduction rate of 3.7 in UK society even after accounting for vaccination, see the report I linked in vaccine thread.
That's basically same number as no-lockdown no-vaccine transmission rate of the Alpha variant.

77Phoebe wrote:

The NHS is useless, has been for years. The NHS has LESS beds now than the start of the pandemic. That's not me, or the unvaccinated, it's the NHS, it's had billions of pounds thrown at it and has yet again failed. Again. What has it been doing?

Sorry, but are you really asking this? There is one nice word for it. It is called "Brexit". As expected from begin on, the hospital staff from the EU/foreign countries has left the UK, or correctly, a big amount of them has left and are back in the EU. And the rest of the local staff is over-stressed, exhausted and many of them have left the job or are now ill as exhausted/burnt out. This is a general issue for all countries in Europe (this with the overstressed staff, the EU has the benefit, that staff is back in the EU now). So it is not a issue with the total niumber of beds, it is the issue with the staff, needed for them. So do not blame the NHS for something, the majority of the people have elected for (of these who have elected and the rest has decided to give their democratic rights to someone else).

And back to the story; the unvaccinated are these who are filling up the hospitals, the not vaccinated are driving the pandemic, these are these, who infect the vaccinated people. The numbers, vaccinated are infecting, are neglible, everyone vaccinated and Delta would have collapsed and exstinct.

Omicron is now different, no one will escape. March, April, May...we will be trough, it is so fast. It will get everyone, vaccinated or not; vaccinated and it will be likely, only light upper resperatory tract or symptom free or light infection, not vaccinated, we will have to see.

And the big question:
Omicron and "Long Covid" or even worse, "Post Covid"? Yes or No?
This is the question.

77Phoebe wrote:

Reinhardt wrote:

77Phoebe wrote:

The rules are justifiably ignored, because no-one can see any worthwhile benefit to follow them. THEY DO NOT WORK. There is no correlation between enforcement and less cases. Two years later here we are, most countries in the world have Omicron in them despite of mitigation. It will continue forever.

People will have to die, because that's what happens in a pandemic. All we are doing now is damaging the children of the country and adding endless unnecessary cancer and heart disease deaths to the total.

Rubbish. All the data in countries that had strict rules that were adhered to showed direct colleration. That was not just mask use but everything else that EVERY expert said had to happen at the same time - regular ventilation and social distancing. Over the summer here rates dropped (naturally because more people were outside). Winter as always means more people inside, colder weather so easier to spread.

What we are doing now is trying to stop health services becoming overloaded, because they are flooded (here and the UK) with the unvaccinated. Omicron isn't helping because it's seemingly so much more transmissible but too early to say if it's more deadly.

Just nonsense. Doing the same thing again, and again, and again. Expecting a different result every time, madness. Covid waves come and go over all countries no matter what their lockdown/ mask/ opening a window status is. Anyway what I or you think is irrelevant people have had enough and moved on.

This is plainly false - there have not been large waves in Japan or Australia due to high uptake and mask protocols. Given Japan’s population density and use of public transportation, you’d expect a situation more like Italy or Germany.

Well, as a hospital healthcare worker in the NHS (including long stints in covid critical care watching people die), I'll try not to take any of this personally. We're trying our best.

BlueberryWheats wrote:

Well, as a hospital healthcare worker in the NHS (including long stints in covid critical care watching people die), I'll try not to take any of this personally. We're trying our best.

Thank you very much and please, do ignore the very obvious troll in the thread.

BlueberryWheats wrote:

Well, as a hospital healthcare worker in the NHS (including long stints in covid critical care watching people die), I'll try not to take any of this personally. We're trying our best.

It's clear that someone is bitter and has an agenda.

As for me, absolutely no complaints. The NHS picked up my wife's breast cancer, dealt with it and provided very good after-care. It may not be perfect, but it's a damn site better than is being portrayed by some here. My covid vaccinations have been handled promptly and very efficiently.

It seems someone cannot separate the politically driven "management" of the NHS and the actual medical staff

77Phoebe wrote:

You want to help them? Toddle of and do so I'm not propping up the useless behemoth.

.

One assumes that you don't avail yourself of any NHS provided services?

About the first death in the UK with Omicron associated... I was listening to the leader of the SNP speaking of measures to be taken in view of Omicron's appearance and rapid increase. She made the point that even if it is found to be milder in effect than Delta, resulting in perhaps 1% of the infected needing hospital treatment rather than 2% for Delta, there is the danger that an increased number of infections (due to Omicron being more transmissable) could result in even more people needing hospitalisation than has been the case with Delta.

BlueberryWheats wrote:

Well, as a hospital healthcare worker in the NHS (including long stints in covid critical care watching people die), I'll try not to take any of this personally. We're trying our best.

Generally tend to avoid these threads now, but I'd just like to say that, whatever the shortcomings of the NHS as an organisation/system, the people that I've interacted are almost universally, helpful, considerate, overworked, overstressed, and un-appreciated.
I have a huge regard for the people that labour thanklessly to keep us as well as they can.
And frankly, I'd MUCH prefer to have our system than that incredibly divisive system on the other side of the Atlantic, which can on one hand rightly claim to give the best healthcare to the rich ones that can afford it, but on the other hand throws the ones that can't under a bus.

I think the efforts to support the mass vaccination have been amazing.

So you and your colleagues have my unreserved thanks for the things that you do.
Please, please completely ignore the ungrateful, vitriolic attacks from those who, if I could, I'd bar from having any access to the system

As a final point, my wife runs a care home (the side of the health system that universally gets ignored, and DOES need a complete makeover), and she has watched people die of Covid.
She advises me that its not an experience to put on your bucket list.
So you have my admiration for coping with that too

Rgds

BlueberryWheats wrote:

Well, as a hospital healthcare worker in the NHS (including long stints in covid critical care watching people die), I'll try not to take any of this personally. We're trying our best.

I’m not from your country but please know that we are thankful for what you are doing. Maybe it’s just doing your job, but it’s not an easy one and that doing your job is helping others immensely.

Reinhardt wrote:

77Phoebe wrote:

More hysterical nonsense. Politicians can do what they like, people have stopped listening. I certainly have.

Well luckily not everyone is like that. When the NHS is on it's knees according to the Chief Medical Examer, and they are expecting things only to get worse to say you'll ignore anything they say is quite frankly stupid.

The Tory back bench are apparently tomorrow not going to vote for the latest rules which would allow places to only allow people in if they are vaccinated or recovered. Apparently this is a 'vaccine passport' and was described this morning by one Tory MP as something Nazi Germany would do. Which is an utterly appalling thing to say by itself but obviously shows he doesn't have a clue because here in Germany, the country most aware of its past and dangers put in place a law a month or so ago which does exactly that - you cannot enter shops, gyms, public offices etc unless you are vaccinated or recovered. You're not even allowed on public transport in my state if you are unvaccinated. (that is if infection rates are over a certain level).

The UK went through the summer with no mask mandates, and still had infection rates measured in the hundreds per 100,000. Nothing changed. The rest of Europe was getting by with 10's per 100,000. Now Omicron is here and you're all going nuts about wearing masks again and maybe stopping some people from going in shops who refuse to be vaccinated. Honestly it's pathetic. When the NHS cannot cope, critical cancer ops are being stopped because of it... well. It's time someone stepped up to the plate and made the right decisions on public health. over 90% of those in hospital over here are unvaccinated.

I think it is highly likely that if a lockdown is not introduced within the next few days, a lockdown starting in January would last for at least a month and possibly the three months it took for the previous lockdowns to falter, in part because the NHS would also need to manage the seasonal flu season alongside the Omicron variant. It is important to remember that those "fully vaccinated" can still get overcome by Omicron, it's stronger than the Delta variant before it and is capable of spreading faster. The theory that was posted in South Africa is that the population is younger and more healthy and previous lockdowns more longer so the deaths to not seem as stark as what is found in western countries, and actually deaths have been rising in tandem with infections in South Africa as well. Note that Africa does not have such a stark seasonal winter flu season in the coming weeks as Europe and America will have.

The rules were also opposed by the left-wing Labour party. It seems that the majority of the population is now more-or-less in agreement with far-right forces over lockdowns and hence the left-wing have no where else to turn.

TokyoImperialPa wrote:

I think it is highly likely that if a lockdown is not introduced within the next few days, a lockdown starting in January would last for at least a month and possibly the three months it took for the previous lockdowns to falter, in part because the NHS would also need to manage the seasonal flu season alongside the Omicron variant. It is important to remember that those "fully vaccinated" can still get overcome by Omicron, it's stronger than the Delta variant before it and is capable of spreading faster. The theory that was posted in South Africa is that the population is younger and more healthy and previous lockdowns more longer so the deaths to not seem as stark as what is found in western countries, and actually deaths have been rising in tandem with infections in South Africa as well. Note that Africa does not have such a stark seasonal winter flu season in the coming weeks as Europe and America will have.
.

Pretty much none of this is true. It is not "stronger" in its severity than delta, quite the contrary. It is more transmissible and evasive, due to its likely mutation with the common cold virus. Deaths in South Africa have basically not risen at all from the pre-omicron baseline and it's been circulating there for well over a month. They've said they've seen an "uncoupling" between infection and severe disease/death. Heck, only this week was the first official death reported from a known Omicron infection. Many places have just been through a long sustained delta wave. That will convey a decent chance of no infection and high probability of a mild case. This variant is breaking previous molds either by its mild nature or by the cumulative impact of vaccines and previous infections. Not so much as preventing infection, but the ability to fight infection with strong T-cell loads. In the cases of serious illness, Pfizer's game changing pill regiment will be on the market soon.

It will be annoying, it will come on fast, It will stretch resources at the wrong time, but there is not going to be a 3 month lockdown in the UK or most any other place.

First studies into Omicron from South Africa are good:

Omicron hospital admissions - 38 admissions per 1,000,
Delta admissions 101 per 1,000
Beta admissions 131 per 1,000

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/14/worl ... study.html

Only about 30 per cent of those hospitalised with Omicron in recent weeks have been seriously ill, less than half the rate as during the first weeks of previous pandemic waves.

Average hospital stays for Omicron have been shorter this time – about 2.8 days compared to eight days.

Just 3 per cent of patients hospitalised recently with Omicron have died, versus about 20 per cent in the country’s earlier outbreaks.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/africa/new ... 59gub.html

Some signs the omicron wave in Gauteng (Johannesburg) is already peaking with barely a ripple effect on the health system:

https://fortune.com/2021/12/13/omicron- ... -surfaced/

Pfizer’s new Paxlovid treatment pill, which reduces hospitalisation and death by 89% in high risk patients appears to work as well against Omicron as Delta

https://www.wsj.com/articles/pfizer-say ... 1639482302

The World Health Organization warned on Monday that Omicron spreads faster than the Delta variant, and that there were still few hard facts about whether it was less deadly. “It remains unclear to what extent Omicron may be inherently less virulent,” the WHO said.

But South Africa’s data shows Omicron has indeed been much less deadly there than previous COVID-19 strains—at least so far—even though only about 23% of the population is fully vaccinated.

https://fortune.com/2021/12/13/omicron- ... -surfaced/

Grounds for tentative optimism to me. I hope that data similar to those from South Africa emerge elsewhere and indicate faster spread but lower virulence. Who knows, we might see the 'beginning of the end' of the COVID-19 nightmare in the next few months.

sierrakilo44 wrote:

First studies into Omicron from South Africa are good:

Omicron hospital admissions - 38 admissions per 1,000,
Delta admissions 101 per 1,000
Beta admissions 131 per 1,000

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/14/worl ... study.html

Only about 30 per cent of those hospitalised with Omicron in recent weeks have been seriously ill, less than half the rate as during the first weeks of previous pandemic waves.

Average hospital stays for Omicron have been shorter this time – about 2.8 days compared to eight days.

Just 3 per cent of patients hospitalised recently with Omicron have died, versus about 20 per cent in the country’s earlier outbreaks.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/africa/new ... 59gub.html

Some signs the omicron wave in Gauteng (Johannesburg) is already peaking with barely a ripple effect on the health system:

https://fortune.com/2021/12/13/omicron- ... -surfaced/

Pfizer’s new Paxlovid treatment pill, which reduces hospitalisation and death by 89% in high risk patients appears to work as well against Omicron as Delta

https://www.wsj.com/articles/pfizer-say ... 1639482302

On top of it, BoJo said the patient died WITH, not OF Covid.

No one really knows the cause of death. Could be a car crash of someone infected with Omicron as far as I am concerned.

Please stick to the topic of discussion. This thread isn't meant for a debate of the NHS.

✈️ atcsundevil

jpetekyxmd80 wrote:

TokyoImperialPa wrote:

I think it is highly likely that if a lockdown is not introduced within the next few days, a lockdown starting in January would last for at least a month and possibly the three months it took for the previous lockdowns to falter, in part because the NHS would also need to manage the seasonal flu season alongside the Omicron variant. It is important to remember that those "fully vaccinated" can still get overcome by Omicron, it's stronger than the Delta variant before it and is capable of spreading faster. The theory that was posted in South Africa is that the population is younger and more healthy and previous lockdowns more longer so the deaths to not seem as stark as what is found in western countries, and actually deaths have been rising in tandem with infections in South Africa as well. Note that Africa does not have such a stark seasonal winter flu season in the coming weeks as Europe and America will have.
.

Pretty much none of this is true. It is not "stronger" in its severity than delta, quite the contrary. It is more transmissible and evasive, due to its likely mutation with the common cold virus. Deaths in South Africa have basically not risen at all from the pre-omicron baseline and it's been circulating there for well over a month. They've said they've seen an "uncoupling" between infection and severe disease/death. Heck, only this week was the first official death reported from a known Omicron infection. Many places have just been through a long sustained delta wave. That will convey a decent chance of no infection and high probability of a mild case. This variant is breaking previous molds either by its mild nature or by the cumulative impact of vaccines and previous infections. Not so much as preventing infection, but the ability to fight infection with strong T-cell loads. In the cases of serious illness, Pfizer's game changing pill regiment will be on the market soon.

It will be annoying, it will come on fast, It will stretch resources at the wrong time, but there is not going to be a 3 month lockdown in the UK or most any other place.

It an be stronger in the sense that a more transmissible variant can infect more people and kill more of them. A lower percentage of deaths among a higher percentage of infected is still more people dead overall.

Deaths have been rising in South Africa. It just has not been linked with Omicron. Remember that there is a lag between infection and hospitalization because Omicron has a longer wait period (google this if you do not believe me). Conisdering deaths have been rising in South Africa, it might be more that the country does not have high quality detection means whereas the UK does have it.

Norway has banned any one from drinking alcohol at bars and restaurants, whereas Canada has advised everyone to stop traveling overseas.

France bans entry from UK except for compelling reasons.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news

Not much point IMO. Won't it just buy time? Time to take what measures?

The Norwegian institute of public health has made a report on the first Omicron-outbreak 3 weeks ago, when a person arrived from south-africa, went to a christmas party, and ended up infecting more than 100 people at a restaurant.

They have done the research of one of the groups that was in a chambre separee celebrating a company christmas party.
The group was 117 people.
111 Has responded to the questioning in the report. 65 (+15 not yet ready analyzed, so likely 80) was infected with Omicron. (1 had Delta from before).

It's a small group, but probably the best report yet, since they were all infected in the same room at the same time.

I'll link to a NRK write-up on the report below, but here are some highlights:
-Obviously extremely transmissable
-100/111 people had 2 doses of either Pfizer or Moderna. The remaining 11 either vaccinated with something else, only one dose or non-vaccinated. 6/11 in this group were infected, but clearly not a number that is large enough to represent any useful information.
-Some was probably vaccinated with a combination of the two, but their health card only shows the last dose and not the combination.
-Everyone (99%) had symptoms of some kind. No asympthomatic cases (1?) 50% experienced fever.
-No one became seriously ill or required hospitalization. (They were young to middle-aged and vaccinated, so to be expected)
-Almst twice as many of those infected had Pfizer compared to Moderna.
-Almost twice as many of those non-infected had Moderna compared to Pfizer.

Again this is google translated, so not 100% accurate:
First on the symptoms list is Coughing.
https://www-nrk-no.translate.goog/norge ... x_tr_hl=no

A version of the original report in English, more difficult to read, but obviously a better source for completely accurate information:
https://www.eurosurveillance.org/conten ... onstatus-1

TokyoImperialPa wrote:

[URL unfurl="true"]https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/First-death-from-omicron-variant-reported-in-U.K[/URL]

"Sadly, at least one patient has now been confirmed to have died with omicron," Johnson said. "So I think the idea that this is somehow a milder version of the virus -- I think that's something we need to set on one side -- and just recognize the sheer pace at which it accelerates through the population."

The first death from the Omicron variant of the coronavirus has been reported in the UK. There have been a number of news reports and rumors that the government is preparing for a lockdown in the coming weeks but is trying to avoid Christmas fearing voter backlash. It was reported by British medial authorities that those vaccinated with two shots can still be overcome with Omicron.

There wont be a strict lockdown.

The government know many would not comply.

TBH I didn’t pay attention to any of the lockdowns other than the initial one and I genuinely do not know anyone who did.

Reinhardt wrote:

77Phoebe wrote:

More hysterical nonsense. Politicians can do what they like, people have stopped listening. I certainly have.

Well luckily not everyone is like that. When the NHS is on it's knees according to the Chief Medical Examer, and they are expecting things only to get worse to say you'll ignore anything they say is quite frankly stupid.

The Tory back bench are apparently tomorrow not going to vote for the latest rules which would allow places to only allow people in if they are vaccinated or recovered. Apparently this is a 'vaccine passport' and was described this morning by one Tory MP as something Nazi Germany would do. Which is an utterly appalling thing to say by itself but obviously shows he doesn't have a clue because here in Germany, the country most aware of its past and dangers put in place a law a month or so ago which does exactly that - you cannot enter shops, gyms, public offices etc unless you are vaccinated or recovered. You're not even allowed on public transport in my state if you are unvaccinated. (that is if infection rates are over a certain level).

The UK went through the summer with no mask mandates, and still had infection rates measured in the hundreds per 100,000. Nothing changed. The rest of Europe was getting by with 10's per 100,000. Now Omicron is here and you're all going nuts about wearing masks again and maybe stopping some people from going in shops who refuse to be vaccinated. Honestly it's pathetic. When the NHS cannot cope, critical cancer ops are being stopped because of it... well. It's time someone stepped up to the plate and made the right decisions on public health. over 90% of those in hospital over here are unvaccinated.

No shops in the UK are preventing those who have not had the vaccine from entering.

noviorbis77 wrote:

No shops in the UK are preventing those who have not had the vaccine from entering.

There is no law forbidding entry to the unvaccinated. That puts shops in a difficult position. The reality is that quite a few people in England will ignore instructions intended to limit the spread of COVID-19 eg keep a distance from others, wear a mask etc.

The seasonal flu has killed 10s of thousands of people world wide. Why no hysteria about that?

acavpics wrote:

The seasonal flu has killed 10s of thousands of people world wide. Why no hysteria about that?

There is hysteria. The flu season in South Africa starts next summer, not this winter, and a merger of the Omicron and flu season would be disaster for the NHS. I think it is very likely that there will be some form of lockdown soon - for example Norway has banned bars and restaurants from selling alcohol.

acavpics wrote:

The seasonal flu has killed 10s of thousands of people world wide. Why no hysteria about that?

Australia has demonstrated that measure to suppress Covid (at least until Omicron) are also successful against influenza. Influenza deaths fell from 1,088 nationally in 2019 to 55 in 2020 and to zero in 2021.

I don't know about the UK and elsewhere, but Australian Covid targets as borders reopen reference the influenza death rate.

3 days later and the Omicron death toll still stands at one (and we don’t know how exactly Omicron contributed to the death of the patient, could’ve been ill with something else and contracted Omicron in hospital)

If the virus is spreading as fast as the panic merchants say it is surely the death rate should be rising exponentially too, or will it be, like this scientist has stated, be now like a cold:

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-mos ... s-12497094

Covid kills millions.
Covid, even before Omicron, is so much more transmissable that the measures put in place to limit the spread totally stopped the spread of influenza last year.

acavpics wrote:

The seasonal flu has killed 10s of thousands of people world wide. Why no hysteria about that?

sierrakilo44 wrote:

3 days later and the Omicron death toll still stands at one (and we don’t know how exactly Omicron contributed to the death of the patient, could’ve been ill with something else and contracted Omicron in hospital)

If the virus is spreading as fast as the panic merchants say it is surely the death rate should be rising exponentially too, or will it be, like this scientist has stated, be now like a cold:

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-mos ... s-12497094

Look at the numbers in 1 or 2 weeks. It's too early (As all the experts are saying) to get a proper idea of how deadly it is.

noviorbis77 wrote:

Reinhardt wrote:

77Phoebe wrote:

More hysterical nonsense. Politicians can do what they like, people have stopped listening. I certainly have.

Well luckily not everyone is like that. When the NHS is on it's knees according to the Chief Medical Examer, and they are expecting things only to get worse to say you'll ignore anything they say is quite frankly stupid.

The Tory back bench are apparently tomorrow not going to vote for the latest rules which would allow places to only allow people in if they are vaccinated or recovered. Apparently this is a 'vaccine passport' and was described this morning by one Tory MP as something Nazi Germany would do. Which is an utterly appalling thing to say by itself but obviously shows he doesn't have a clue because here in Germany, the country most aware of its past and dangers put in place a law a month or so ago which does exactly that - you cannot enter shops, gyms, public offices etc unless you are vaccinated or recovered. You're not even allowed on public transport in my state if you are unvaccinated. (that is if infection rates are over a certain level).

The UK went through the summer with no mask mandates, and still had infection rates measured in the hundreds per 100,000. Nothing changed. The rest of Europe was getting by with 10's per 100,000. Now Omicron is here and you're all going nuts about wearing masks again and maybe stopping some people from going in shops who refuse to be vaccinated. Honestly it's pathetic. When the NHS cannot cope, critical cancer ops are being stopped because of it... well. It's time someone stepped up to the plate and made the right decisions on public health. over 90% of those in hospital over here are unvaccinated.

No shops in the UK are preventing those who have not had the vaccine from entering.

I said "places". Perhaps not accurate enough, but yes I was aware this was not shops in the UK.

TokyoImperialPa wrote:

acavpics wrote:

The seasonal flu has killed 10s of thousands of people world wide. Why no hysteria about that?

There is hysteria. The flu season in South Africa starts next summer, not this winter, and a merger of the Omicron and flu season would be disaster for the NHS. I think it is very likely that there will be some form of lockdown soon - for example Norway has banned bars and restaurants from selling alcohol.

I believe the hysteria is more the one where seemingly every single case is feverishly reported by the media like we are still talking about a zombie apocalypse.
The fear-mongering factor is still very much in full swing among the media, and almost 2 years on, it is still very hard to get relevant info about Covid among the mostly useless figures thrown at us every day and the countless conflicting reports about contagiousness, severity, efficacy of vaccines, etc.

The only metrics of any use are the ones surrounding the healthcare capacity to cope and ensure adequate care for everyone, both covid patients and the vast majority of patients who aren't, in fact, covid patients.
Those numbers are much harder to find. Whereas the situation is not as rosy for healthcare systems as it should be in many places, I suspect the lack of catastrophic or even serious issues tends to send the panic-seekers towards more useless numbers such as overall case numbers or trivial, out-of-context and pointless factoids like 'Some guy caught omicron somewhere and spread it to his friends!!!'...

Some facts are that globally, whereas overall case numbers seem to be passing a peak, fatalities have been stagnating throughout.
Overall death figures currently point to a sustained 4 to 5% increase in mortality, roughly. That mortality appears to be concentrated in groups with an already high mortality rate (and the unvaxxed...).
There are signs of rapidly increasing numbers in some parts of Africa in what would indicate the start of the inevitable Omicron wave, but so far mortality hasn't increased appreciably.
So far, and despite this new Omicron craze, the Delta variant is still the one very much inflicting the worst covid-reated damages.

The only issue I see is the current lack of vaccination which unnecessarily crowds hospitals in many places.

sierrakilo44 wrote:

3 days later and the Omicron death toll still stands at one (and we don’t know how exactly Omicron contributed to the death of the patient, could’ve been ill with something else and contracted Omicron in hospital)

If the virus is spreading as fast as the panic merchants say it is surely the death rate should be rising exponentially too, or will it be, like this scientist has stated, be now like a cold:

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-mos ... s-12497094

It remains to be seen if it makes people less ill than delta but SA reports suggest that is the case. Too early to confirm that in UK since it has only been here for a couple of weeks. It is spreading fast so enough data should be coming in the next 2?/3?/4? weeks to indicate what effect it has on those infected.

Aaron747 wrote:

77Phoebe wrote:

Reinhardt wrote:

Rubbish. All the data in countries that had strict rules that were adhered to showed direct colleration. That was not just mask use but everything else that EVERY expert said had to happen at the same time - regular ventilation and social distancing. Over the summer here rates dropped (naturally because more people were outside). Winter as always means more people inside, colder weather so easier to spread.

What we are doing now is trying to stop health services becoming overloaded, because they are flooded (here and the UK) with the unvaccinated. Omicron isn't helping because it's seemingly so much more transmissible but too early to say if it's more deadly.

Just nonsense. Doing the same thing again, and again, and again. Expecting a different result every time, madness. Covid waves come and go over all countries no matter what their lockdown/ mask/ opening a window status is. Anyway what I or you think is irrelevant people have had enough and moved on.

This is plainly false - there have not been large waves in Japan or Australia due to high uptake and mask protocols. Given Japan’s population density and use of public transportation, you’d expect a situation more like Italy or Germany.

There is a large wave in Australia right at the very moment and mask protocols have been abandoned. Unvaccinated people now also have nearly complete freedoms too. In my state anyhow. The case numbers are increasing rapidly per day.

Important is to stick with measures like wearing masks, appropriate distancing and use check in measures so if there is a positive case then contact tracing can happen easily enough and those contacts can isolate until they are recovered. And use lockdowns if necessary to avoid hospitals being overwhelmed.