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ArchGuy1
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Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:42 am

A few days ago, tornadoes ripped through Kentucky and other states in the Central United States. Among the building destroyed are a candle factory and an Amazon distribution plant. Thoughts and prayers for those affected, but suprising no one has posted on this yet.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59641784
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:55 am

It isn't talked about much here but the major networks are giving it a lot of attention.
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:03 am

Aaron747 wrote:
It isn't talked about much here but the major networks are giving it a lot of attention.

Wish a thread on this topic was already opened.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:05 am

I don’t understand how in this day and age we get this much loss of life when we have such technology that gives us warnings that this weather is coming. I mean this catastrophic damage is rivaled only by nuclear blast damage. I sure hope these workplaces didn’t prevent their employees from seeking shelter. Good Golly.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:04 am

I worry, that much like Joplin, many of those in Mayfield ignored the warnings.
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna44596753

"Honestly it was a bit of a disappointment that there were so many people who didn't move to shelter after the first warning," Stammer said. "The human side is the part that's most frustrating.


That being said, it doesn't excuse what is rumored to have occurred at one of the businesses.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ke ... y-rcna8581

For hours, as word of the coming storm spread, as many as 15 workers beseeched managers to let them take shelter at their own homes, only to have their requests rebuffed, the workers said.

Fearing for their safety, some left during their shifts regardless of the repercussions.

At least eight people died in the Mayfield Consumer Products factory, which makes scented candles. The facility was leveled, and all that is left is rubble. Photos and videos of its widespread mangled remains have become symbols of the enormous destructive power of Friday’s tornado system.


Heck of a toll for a tornado event.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:09 am

casinterest wrote:
I worry, that much like Joplin, many of those in Mayfield ignored the warnings.
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna44596753

"Honestly it was a bit of a disappointment that there were so many people who didn't move to shelter after the first warning," Stammer said. "The human side is the part that's most frustrating.


That being said, it doesn't excuse what is rumored to have occurred at one of the businesses.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ke ... y-rcna8581

For hours, as word of the coming storm spread, as many as 15 workers beseeched managers to let them take shelter at their own homes, only to have their requests rebuffed, the workers said.

Fearing for their safety, some left during their shifts regardless of the repercussions.

At least eight people died in the Mayfield Consumer Products factory, which makes scented candles. The facility was leveled, and all that is left is rubble. Photos and videos of its widespread mangled remains have become symbols of the enormous destructive power of Friday’s tornado system.


Heck of a toll for a tornado event.


If so, that’s a flagrant violation of standard liability risk management. The company is finished if they refused to dismiss employees with a government emergency warning already issued. Won’t bring any of the victims back...abysmal for their families.
 
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stl07
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:16 am

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I worry, that much like Joplin, many of those in Mayfield ignored the warnings.
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna44596753

"Honestly it was a bit of a disappointment that there were so many people who didn't move to shelter after the first warning," Stammer said. "The human side is the part that's most frustrating.


That being said, it doesn't excuse what is rumored to have occurred at one of the businesses.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ke ... y-rcna8581

For hours, as word of the coming storm spread, as many as 15 workers beseeched managers to let them take shelter at their own homes, only to have their requests rebuffed, the workers said.

Fearing for their safety, some left during their shifts regardless of the repercussions.

At least eight people died in the Mayfield Consumer Products factory, which makes scented candles. The facility was leveled, and all that is left is rubble. Photos and videos of its widespread mangled remains have become symbols of the enormous destructive power of Friday’s tornado system.


Heck of a toll for a tornado event.


If so, that’s a flagrant violation of standard liability risk management. The company is finished if they refused to dismiss employees with a government emergency warning already issued. Won’t bring any of the victims back...abysmal for their families.

Illinios governer has said they will be opening an investigation into what happened at the Amazon STL facility to see if workers were allowed time to get out
 
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stl07
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:18 am

I will say, being a former resident of a tornado ally state, a lot of times the tornado warnings mean nothing, so I can understand the lack of urgency to move during one. Sort of like every time there is a hurricane that is super bad in FL, the news always asks why residents didn't follow mandatory evacuations and they always say they thought it was overhyped
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:25 am

stl07 wrote:
I will say, being a former resident of a tornado ally state, a lot of times the tornado warnings mean nothing, so I can understand the lack of urgency to move during one. Sort of like every time there is a hurricane that is super bad in FL, the news always asks why residents didn't follow mandatory evacuations and they always say they thought it was overhyped


Understandable but a couple things: the tech and predictive tools available now are dramatically better than just 10-15 years ago.

Would people in these areas prefer to defund/close NWS and NSSL? My bet would be on ‘no’.

I also wonder if a claims adjuster would be able to void cover if investigation revealed the insured ignored a major warning.
 
TriJets
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:42 am

casinterest wrote:
I worry, that much like Joplin, many of those in Mayfield ignored the warnings.
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna44596753

"Honestly it was a bit of a disappointment that there were so many people who didn't move to shelter after the first warning," Stammer said. "The human side is the part that's most frustrating.


That being said, it doesn't excuse what is rumored to have occurred at one of the businesses.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ke ... y-rcna8581

For hours, as word of the coming storm spread, as many as 15 workers beseeched managers to let them take shelter at their own homes, only to have their requests rebuffed, the workers said.

Fearing for their safety, some left during their shifts regardless of the repercussions.

At least eight people died in the Mayfield Consumer Products factory, which makes scented candles. The facility was leveled, and all that is left is rubble. Photos and videos of its widespread mangled remains have become symbols of the enormous destructive power of Friday’s tornado system.


Heck of a toll for a tornado event.


They didn't have "hours" of warning about the tornado, only minutes. Moreover, common sense dictates that a large building is likely to withstand tornado damage better than a car or small house.
 
CaptHadley
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:43 am

TriJets wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I worry, that much like Joplin, many of those in Mayfield ignored the warnings.
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna44596753

"Honestly it was a bit of a disappointment that there were so many people who didn't move to shelter after the first warning," Stammer said. "The human side is the part that's most frustrating.


That being said, it doesn't excuse what is rumored to have occurred at one of the businesses.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ke ... y-rcna8581

For hours, as word of the coming storm spread, as many as 15 workers beseeched managers to let them take shelter at their own homes, only to have their requests rebuffed, the workers said.

Fearing for their safety, some left during their shifts regardless of the repercussions.

At least eight people died in the Mayfield Consumer Products factory, which makes scented candles. The facility was leveled, and all that is left is rubble. Photos and videos of its widespread mangled remains have become symbols of the enormous destructive power of Friday’s tornado system.[/qu

Heck of a toll for a tornado event.


They didn't have "hours" of warning about the tornado, only minutes. Moreover, common sense dictates that a large building is likely to withstand tornado damage better than a car or small house.


Really interested in both of these analogies, do you have sources for the having only minutes of warning and the larger buildings are safer? I always thought the NWS was good at giving ample warnings and thought larger buildings would be more prone to damage just due to their size. Again, would love to read anything you have on these, thanks.
 
TriJets
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:54 am

CaptHadley wrote:
TriJets wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I worry, that much like Joplin, many of those in Mayfield ignored the warnings.
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna44596753



That being said, it doesn't excuse what is rumored to have occurred at one of the businesses.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ke ... y-rcna8581



They didn't have "hours" of warning about the tornado, only minutes. Moreover, common sense dictates that a large building is likely to withstand tornado damage better than a car or small house.


Really interested in both of these analogies, do you have sources for the having only minutes of warning and the larger buildings are safer? I always thought the NWS was good at giving ample warnings and thought larger buildings would be more prone to damage just due to their size. Again, would love to read anything you have on these, thanks.


Sure. According to the National Weather Service, the average warning they are able to give people in advance of a tornado is 9 minutes-

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... 152104001/
 
CaptHadley
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:05 am

TriJets wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:
TriJets wrote:


Really interested in both of these analogies, do you have sources for the having only minutes of warning and the larger buildings are safer? I always thought the NWS was good at giving ample warnings and thought larger buildings would be more prone to damage just due to their size. Again, would love to read anything you have on these, thanks.


Sure. According to the National Weather Service, the average warning they are able to give people in advance of a tornado is 9 minutes-

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... 152104001/


But what about big buildings?
 
TriJets
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:53 am

CaptHadley wrote:
TriJets wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:

Really interested in both of these analogies, do you have sources for the having only minutes of warning and the larger buildings are safer? I always thought the NWS was good at giving ample warnings and thought larger buildings would be more prone to damage just due to their size. Again, would love to read anything you have on these, thanks.


Sure. According to the National Weather Service, the average warning they are able to give people in advance of a tornado is 9 minutes-

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... 152104001/


But what about big buildings?


That's just common sense. Commercial buildings are usually built from steel or brick so they are studier than most homes, which in that region tend to be built of lumber. Also, the safest spot during a tornado (besides a basement) is the most interior part of a building on the ground floor. Commercial buildings have interior spaces that are much further away from exterior walls than most homes do.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:40 am

TriJets wrote:
That's just common sense. Commercial buildings are usually built from steel or brick so they are studier than most homes, which in that region tend to be built of lumber. Also, the safest spot during a tornado (besides a basement) is the most interior part of a building on the ground floor. Commercial buildings have interior spaces that are much further away from exterior walls than most homes do.

Most warehouses are a steel frame with simple metal/plastic/wood panneling. I don't think they would fare much better then a lumber house.
And that's not even taking into account the numerous loading docks your typical warehouse has.
 
11C
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:47 pm

TriJets wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:
TriJets wrote:


Really interested in both of these analogies, do you have sources for the having only minutes of warning and the larger buildings are safer? I always thought the NWS was good at giving ample warnings and thought larger buildings would be more prone to damage just due to their size. Again, would love to read anything you have on these, thanks.


Sure. According to the National Weather Service, the average warning they are able to give people in advance of a tornado is 9 minutes-

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... 152104001/


That’s average, what about the specific warnings in this case? I heard it was 30 minutes, or more.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:42 pm

TriJets wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:
TriJets wrote:


Really interested in both of these analogies, do you have sources for the having only minutes of warning and the larger buildings are safer? I always thought the NWS was good at giving ample warnings and thought larger buildings would be more prone to damage just due to their size. Again, would love to read anything you have on these, thanks.


Sure. According to the National Weather Service, the average warning they are able to give people in advance of a tornado is 9 minutes-

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... 152104001/



They were put under watches. The threat was there. The issue is that larger buildings don't always equate with better in a tornado. Many warehouses and distribution facilities are Cement pads with Steel or Aluminum siding Tornadoes can peel those apart. Especially in the F3+ intensity range. I am going to guess that many areas were hit by and F4+ tornado in Mayfield.

Sirens are used to shelter in place, and unlike the plains, not every state has storm shelters built in place in the Midwest and east.

Below is a video of what a Tornado did to a Lowe's Home Improvement here in NC in 2011, and it was at most an EF3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Detv30VIia4
 
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Aesma
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:57 pm

Having enough financial resources to quit immediately if confronted with such situation : priceless.
 
IADCA
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:47 pm

Aesma wrote:
Having enough financial resources to quit immediately if confronted with such situation : priceless.


Honestly, given the employment situation in the US right now, pretty much any worker with a clean record can have a new job tomorrow if they want one.

TriJets wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:
TriJets wrote:

Sure. According to the National Weather Service, the average warning they are able to give people in advance of a tornado is 9 minutes-

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... 152104001/


But what about big buildings?


That's just common sense. Commercial buildings are usually built from steel or brick so they are studier than most homes, which in that region tend to be built of lumber. Also, the safest spot during a tornado (besides a basement) is the most interior part of a building on the ground floor. Commercial buildings have interior spaces that are much further away from exterior walls than most homes do.


It's not common sense at all. Warehouse-type buildings generally don't have basements and have walls built out of stuff that's basically meaningless in a tornado except to create more dangerous airborne debris. I'd take a lumber home with a basement over a warehouse or factory building any day of the week, and absent a basement I don't see much difference. Neither one is a trailer, but neither one is withstanding a direct hit from a powerful tornado.
 
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ER757
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:29 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
I don’t understand how in this day and age we get this much loss of life when we have such technology that gives us warnings that this weather is coming. I mean this catastrophic damage is rivaled only by nuclear blast damage. I sure hope these workplaces didn’t prevent their employees from seeking shelter. Good Golly.

Reports from workers at the factory in Kentucky sating were told they'd be fired if they left
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ke ... y-rcna8581
If that turns out to be true, whatever financial resources the company may have left will be gone in wrongful death lawsuits. I would think supervisors could be looking at criminal charges as well. Just tragic.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:30 pm

IADCA wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Having enough financial resources to quit immediately if confronted with such situation : priceless.


Honestly, given the employment situation in the US right now, pretty much any worker with a clean record can have a new job tomorrow if they want one.

TriJets wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:

But what about big buildings?


That's just common sense. Commercial buildings are usually built from steel or brick so they are studier than most homes, which in that region tend to be built of lumber. Also, the safest spot during a tornado (besides a basement) is the most interior part of a building on the ground floor. Commercial buildings have interior spaces that are much further away from exterior walls than most homes do.


It's not common sense at all. Warehouse-type buildings generally don't have basements and have walls built out of stuff that's basically meaningless in a tornado except to create more dangerous airborne debris. I'd take a lumber home with a basement over a warehouse or factory building any day of the week, and absent a basement I don't see much difference. Neither one is a trailer, but neither one is withstanding a direct hit from a powerful tornado.


Most homes in the south don't have basements due to high water tables and or soil issues. This was surprising to me growing up in northern NJ where we all had basements. I have lived in the Memphis area since 1994 and have dodged several tornadoes. You follow the rule of thumb to go to the most interior room of your house away from windows and cover your head with a mattress if you can and hope for the best. So unless you build your own fortified shelter that is all you have really and if it is in the EF-4 or 5 range and you take a direct hit it will level your house to the foundation and you most likely are not going to survive it warning or no warning.
 
IADCA
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:59 pm

stratosphere wrote:
IADCA wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Having enough financial resources to quit immediately if confronted with such situation : priceless.


Honestly, given the employment situation in the US right now, pretty much any worker with a clean record can have a new job tomorrow if they want one.

TriJets wrote:

That's just common sense. Commercial buildings are usually built from steel or brick so they are studier than most homes, which in that region tend to be built of lumber. Also, the safest spot during a tornado (besides a basement) is the most interior part of a building on the ground floor. Commercial buildings have interior spaces that are much further away from exterior walls than most homes do.


It's not common sense at all. Warehouse-type buildings generally don't have basements and have walls built out of stuff that's basically meaningless in a tornado except to create more dangerous airborne debris. I'd take a lumber home with a basement over a warehouse or factory building any day of the week, and absent a basement I don't see much difference. Neither one is a trailer, but neither one is withstanding a direct hit from a powerful tornado.


Most homes in the south don't have basements due to high water tables and or soil issues. This was surprising to me growing up in northern NJ where we all had basements. I have lived in the Memphis area since 1994 and have dodged several tornadoes. You follow the rule of thumb to go to the most interior room of your house away from windows and cover your head with a mattress if you can and hope for the best. So unless you build your own fortified shelter that is all you have really and if it is in the EF-4 or 5 range and you take a direct hit it will level your house to the foundation and you most likely are not going to survive it warning or no warning.


I live in Chattanooga. Most houses here have basements. It's possibly a difference due to our own topography, but it's hardly uncommon for houses here and in Nashville (just for one example) to have basements. Yes, the soil isn't ideal for it: the number of foundation repair ads you see around here and in the northern parts of Georgia and Alabama is a testament to that.

Regardless, though, I'd rather take my chances in the one house I'm aware of near me that sits on a slab (I thought of buying it earlier this year, and the lack of a basement was perhaps the deciding factor in my decision not to given the tornadoes here last year) than in a freaking warehouse.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:27 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
I don’t understand how in this day and age we get this much loss of life when we have such technology that gives us warnings that this weather is coming. I mean this catastrophic damage is rivaled only by nuclear blast damage. I sure hope these workplaces didn’t prevent their employees from seeking shelter. Good Golly.


Tornado warnings are still within minutes as they are very localized. Meteorologists can look at systems and assess tornado risk but they are an aspect of a greater thunderstorm system and can still take people by surprise.

It turns out this Candle Factory did threatened the jobs of employees who wanted to leave. They seem to have done just that.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... used-leave

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ke ... y-rcna8581

Amazon's phone ban meant that many didn't know of the immediate danger.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -phone-ban

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... y-illinois

stratosphere wrote:
Most homes in the south don't have basements due to high water tables and or soil issues. This was surprising to me growing up in northern NJ where we all had basements. I have lived in the Memphis area since 1994 and have dodged several tornadoes. You follow the rule of thumb to go to the most interior room of your house away from windows and cover your head with a mattress if you can and hope for the best. So unless you build your own fortified shelter that is all you have really and if it is in the EF-4 or 5 range and you take a direct hit it will level your house to the foundation and you most likely are not going to survive it warning or no warning.


Correct, all you would see if this hit say Minnesota or upstate NY is open basements. not concrete slabs. Although I would think engineers would have frost protection in KY, TN, IL etc. Snow and sustained below 0 temperature is less common but does happen.

I think the biggest reason southern states don't have basements is that they don't need them as the sustained frost risk is minimal. In northern states all the water lines are placed below the frost line which is 4-5 feet below grade at minimum to prevent freezing and enter homes through a crawlspace or basement that will not typically drop below freezing unless there is a heat failure for a sustained amount of time. .
 
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seb146
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:59 am

StarAC17 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I don’t understand how in this day and age we get this much loss of life when we have such technology that gives us warnings that this weather is coming. I mean this catastrophic damage is rivaled only by nuclear blast damage. I sure hope these workplaces didn’t prevent their employees from seeking shelter. Good Golly.


Tornado warnings are still within minutes as they are very localized. Meteorologists can look at systems and assess tornado risk but they are an aspect of a greater thunderstorm system and can still take people by surprise.

It turns out this Candle Factory did threatened the jobs of employees who wanted to leave. They seem to have done just that.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... used-leave

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ke ... y-rcna8581

Amazon's phone ban meant that many didn't know of the immediate danger.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -phone-ban

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... y-illinois


An Amazon spokesperson is offering thoughts and prayers and "we will look into it" as the company reaction to those killed because they were not allowed to take cover. Because product is more important than life. Work is more important than safety. This is why if I can't get it in the store, I don't need it.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:59 am

seb146 wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I don’t understand how in this day and age we get this much loss of life when we have such technology that gives us warnings that this weather is coming. I mean this catastrophic damage is rivaled only by nuclear blast damage. I sure hope these workplaces didn’t prevent their employees from seeking shelter. Good Golly.


Tornado warnings are still within minutes as they are very localized. Meteorologists can look at systems and assess tornado risk but they are an aspect of a greater thunderstorm system and can still take people by surprise.

It turns out this Candle Factory did threatened the jobs of employees who wanted to leave. They seem to have done just that.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... used-leave

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ke ... y-rcna8581

Amazon's phone ban meant that many didn't know of the immediate danger.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -phone-ban

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... y-illinois


An Amazon spokesperson is offering thoughts and prayers and "we will look into it" as the company reaction to those killed because they were not allowed to take cover. Because product is more important than life. Work is more important than safety. This is why if I can't get it in the store, I don't need it.


The issue though, is that this one lies in the regional and district manager's lap. As much as you want to blame Amazon as a whole, and they will own part of this, this issue really is a local management issue. Bad Management, but local management.
 
TriJets
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:51 am

casinterest wrote:
TriJets wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:

Really interested in both of these analogies, do you have sources for the having only minutes of warning and the larger buildings are safer? I always thought the NWS was good at giving ample warnings and thought larger buildings would be more prone to damage just due to their size. Again, would love to read anything you have on these, thanks.


Sure. According to the National Weather Service, the average warning they are able to give people in advance of a tornado is 9 minutes-

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... 152104001/



They were put under watches. The threat was there. The issue is that larger buildings don't always equate with better in a tornado. Many warehouses and distribution facilities are Cement pads with Steel or Aluminum siding Tornadoes can peel those apart. Especially in the F3+ intensity range. I am going to guess that many areas were hit by and F4+ tornado in Mayfield.

Sirens are used to shelter in place, and unlike the plains, not every state has storm shelters built in place in the Midwest and east.

Below is a video of what a Tornado did to a Lowe's Home Improvement here in NC in 2011, and it was at most an EF3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Detv30VIia4


The tornado watch covered tens of millions of people over thousands of square miles. They are also not uncommon....you can't just evacuate everywhere inside of a tornado watch.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:48 pm

Evacuate no but allow people to seek shelter, yes. Maybe that means warehouses like this should include a shelter in these regions.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:57 pm

TriJets wrote:
casinterest wrote:
TriJets wrote:

Sure. According to the National Weather Service, the average warning they are able to give people in advance of a tornado is 9 minutes-

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... 152104001/



They were put under watches. The threat was there. The issue is that larger buildings don't always equate with better in a tornado. Many warehouses and distribution facilities are Cement pads with Steel or Aluminum siding Tornadoes can peel those apart. Especially in the F3+ intensity range. I am going to guess that many areas were hit by and F4+ tornado in Mayfield.

Sirens are used to shelter in place, and unlike the plains, not every state has storm shelters built in place in the Midwest and east.

Below is a video of what a Tornado did to a Lowe's Home Improvement here in NC in 2011, and it was at most an EF3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Detv30VIia4


The tornado watch covered tens of millions of people over thousands of square miles. They are also not uncommon....you can't just evacuate everywhere inside of a tornado watch.



No, but you can be aware. When Tornado's go live, most everyone's phones start going off now with alerts. The weather stations, and radio stations break in. There are still going to be unfortunate incidents such as this one, but people need to be vigilant. Especially when they are in the path of a line of storms known to contain circulation and wall clouds
 
TriJets
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:58 pm

casinterest wrote:
TriJets wrote:
casinterest wrote:


They were put under watches. The threat was there. The issue is that larger buildings don't always equate with better in a tornado. Many warehouses and distribution facilities are Cement pads with Steel or Aluminum siding Tornadoes can peel those apart. Especially in the F3+ intensity range. I am going to guess that many areas were hit by and F4+ tornado in Mayfield.

Sirens are used to shelter in place, and unlike the plains, not every state has storm shelters built in place in the Midwest and east.

Below is a video of what a Tornado did to a Lowe's Home Improvement here in NC in 2011, and it was at most an EF3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Detv30VIia4


The tornado watch covered tens of millions of people over thousands of square miles. They are also not uncommon....you can't just evacuate everywhere inside of a tornado watch.



No, but you can be aware. When Tornado's go live, most everyone's phones start going off now with alerts. The weather stations, and radio stations break in. There are still going to be unfortunate incidents such as this one, but people need to be vigilant. Especially when they are in the path of a line of storms known to contain circulation and wall clouds


I agree. Nothing wrong with being aware. My issue was with some of the people in the articles who are faulting the companies for being open during the event. You can't close every business in a tornado watch area. It just isn't practical or even advisable.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:55 pm

TriJets wrote:
casinterest wrote:
TriJets wrote:

The tornado watch covered tens of millions of people over thousands of square miles. They are also not uncommon....you can't just evacuate everywhere inside of a tornado watch.



No, but you can be aware. When Tornado's go live, most everyone's phones start going off now with alerts. The weather stations, and radio stations break in. There are still going to be unfortunate incidents such as this one, but people need to be vigilant. Especially when they are in the path of a line of storms known to contain circulation and wall clouds


I agree. Nothing wrong with being aware. My issue was with some of the people in the articles who are faulting the companies for being open during the event. You can't close every business in a tornado watch area. It just isn't practical or even advisable.


No you can't close them, but at the same time, you need to make sure everyone is safe, and in big companies someone needs to be aware of the weather and watching it.
 
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T18
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:18 pm

TriJets wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:
TriJets wrote:

Sure. According to the National Weather Service, the average warning they are able to give people in advance of a tornado is 9 minutes-

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... 152104001/


But what about big buildings?


That's just common sense. Commercial buildings are usually built from steel or brick so they are studier than most homes, which in that region tend to be built of lumber. Also, the safest spot during a tornado (besides a basement) is the most interior part of a building on the ground floor. Commercial buildings have interior spaces that are much further away from exterior walls than most homes do.


You first thesis is partially untrue. Large span buildings like warehouses and big box stores fare far worse than homes in tornadoes. They tend to become very unstable as soon as the roof structure is compromised (which can occur in even a weak storm) and basically fall in even if the tornado does not directly impact the building. Never assume that building A is safer than Building B just because one is commercial vs. residential. While I'm knocking down myths, overpasses are no shelter in a tornado and in fact are a more dangerous place to be.
 
CaptHadley
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:22 pm

T18 wrote:
TriJets wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:

But what about big buildings?


That's just common sense. Commercial buildings are usually built from steel or brick so they are studier than most homes, which in that region tend to be built of lumber. Also, the safest spot during a tornado (besides a basement) is the most interior part of a building on the ground floor. Commercial buildings have interior spaces that are much further away from exterior walls than most homes do.


You first thesis is partially untrue. Large span buildings like warehouses and big box stores fare far worse than homes in tornadoes. They tend to become very unstable as soon as the roof structure is compromised (which can occur in even a weak storm) and basically fall in even if the tornado does not directly impact the building. Never assume that building A is safer than Building B just because one is commercial vs. residential. While I'm knocking down myths, overpasses are no shelter in a tornado and in fact are a more dangerous place to be.


Very well stated, I completely agree with that assessment. Don’t judge a buildings resistance based just on it’s size alone.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:07 am

TriJets wrote:
casinterest wrote:
TriJets wrote:

The tornado watch covered tens of millions of people over thousands of square miles. They are also not uncommon....you can't just evacuate everywhere inside of a tornado watch.



No, but you can be aware. When Tornado's go live, most everyone's phones start going off now with alerts. The weather stations, and radio stations break in. There are still going to be unfortunate incidents such as this one, but people need to be vigilant. Especially when they are in the path of a line of storms known to contain circulation and wall clouds


I agree. Nothing wrong with being aware. My issue was with some of the people in the articles who are faulting the companies for being open during the event. You can't close every business in a tornado watch area. It just isn't practical or even advisable.


Flagrantly violating risk, safety, and liability management principles isn't practical or advisable either.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:41 am

On a lighter note some lost photos were found 140 miles away and are being returned to their owner.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59667108
 
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casinterest
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:39 pm

Epilogue.

https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2021 ... pi-valley/

Good information on the track and radar.
Image

The NWS has officially classified the Mayfield Tornado an EF-4

https://www.wlky.com/article/ef-4-torna ... y/38514516

Mayfield, where a candle factory was destroyed and eight people died, was also in this path.

The estimated peak winds are 190mph with a path length of 128 miles. The NWS said this path started just before 9 p.m. and ended around 11 p.m.


https://www.accuweather.com/en/severe-w ... ts/1062360

The fatalities in Kentucky combined with 14 deaths in Illinois, Tennessee, Arkansas, and Missouri, according to The Associated Press, made the death toll from the tornado outbreak at least 88 across five states.


There are more still unaccounted for .
 
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ER757
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:01 pm

casinterest wrote:
Epilogue.

https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2021 ... pi-valley/

Good information on the track and radar.
Image

The NWS has officially classified the Mayfield Tornado an EF-4

https://www.wlky.com/article/ef-4-torna ... y/38514516

Mayfield, where a candle factory was destroyed and eight people died, was also in this path.

The estimated peak winds are 190mph with a path length of 128 miles. The NWS said this path started just before 9 p.m. and ended around 11 p.m.


https://www.accuweather.com/en/severe-w ... ts/1062360

The fatalities in Kentucky combined with 14 deaths in Illinois, Tennessee, Arkansas, and Missouri, according to The Associated Press, made the death toll from the tornado outbreak at least 88 across five states.


There are more still unaccounted for .


I was wondering when the initial reports I saw rated it as an EF-3. I looked at the photos and videos of the damage and thought it must have been an EF-4. Interesting to see it was upgraded. I must be a better judge of these things than I thought. I guess it comes from growing up in tornado country
 
N649DL
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:07 am

It was an overall extremely rare storm system considering it's December. I watched the coverage live on a YT channel and knew it was going to be a total disaster - and I'm in CA of all places. The north part of the front dumped snow up in say MN and the backend dumped these tornadoes. Straight up just rare - some are comparing it to the tri-state tornado disaster from 1925.

Bottom line - night time tornado attacks are deadly because most people are dead asleep and not aware of warnings. When I lived in AUS, there were a few warnings where I stayed up to monitor the situation at night. Most people don't do this. A big case study on this would be the 1998 Florida tornado outbreak around MCO which was in February and killed around 40 people because it straight up was at night. Look it up because it seemed awful and people were caught unaware.

When there was the first ever Tornado Emergency in NJ this past summer I even texted my friends to look at the warnings. That's just me.

A huge tragedy - I donated to the Red Cross in the aftermath to help out.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:44 pm

TriJets wrote:
They didn't have "hours" of warning about the tornado, only minutes.

I'm gonna stop you right there. The Storm Prediction Center publishes what's called a Convective Outlook, which is weather-speak for an area with potential for severe weather outbreaks. As the week went on, the area that was hardest hit kept going up the scale (it peaked at level 4 which is moderate).

The day of the event, tornado watches were issued all over so even though it might have been sunny in the morning, the watch meant that severe weather (with the possibility of tornadoes) was sure to come. At about 5pm CST, tornado warnings were already being issued in MO and AR. This wasn't a simple supercell that popped up from nowhere; this was a defined frontal boundary with storms in the leading edge (aka a squall line). It doesn't take a high school diploma to put 2 and 2 together: if a squall line that's tornado warned is heading east in your direction, then expect the worst and hope for the best.

The tornado warnings were issued with no less than 15 minutes before an active cell arrived to the area so if after all this you still decided to ignore the warnings, I have no sympathy. Most of the cells were tornado warned for a long time, and few of them had spotter-confirmed tornadoes. There was one that hit in SoMO that was rainwrapped; coupled with the darkness of the night, the only way it was confirmed was because it was backlit by lightning.

So TL;DR: there were hours to prepare...days actually. Anyone living in a tornado prone area MUST have a readiness plan in place.

TriJets wrote:
Moreover, common sense dictates that a large building is likely to withstand tornado damage better than a car or small house.

With this, I agree. If the building was not able to withstand the hit, then either the tornado's force exceeded the structural limit of the building or the building was poorly built. Had I worked at the candle factory or the Amazon warehouse, I too would have stayed inside rather than drive, but that's only because I trust that those buildings were strong enough. During the event, I decided to drive out to a parking garage made out of concrete because I knew that my apartment complex would not survive a hit, but I did it once the first tornado warnings hit my area; the cells were still far away for me to take my cat and a few items and drive out. We thankfully dodged a bullet.
 
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ER757
Posts: 4452
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:56 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
TriJets wrote:
They didn't have "hours" of warning about the tornado, only minutes.

I'm gonna stop you right there. The Storm Prediction Center publishes what's called a Convective Outlook, which is weather-speak for an area with potential for severe weather outbreaks. As the week went on, the area that was hardest hit kept going up the scale (it peaked at level 4 which is moderate).

The day of the event, tornado watches were issued all over so even though it might have been sunny in the morning, the watch meant that severe weather (with the possibility of tornadoes) was sure to come. At about 5pm CST, tornado warnings were already being issued in MO and AR. This wasn't a simple supercell that popped up from nowhere; this was a defined frontal boundary with storms in the leading edge (aka a squall line). It doesn't take a high school diploma to put 2 and 2 together: if a squall line that's tornado warned is heading east in your direction, then expect the worst and hope for the best.

The tornado warnings were issued with no less than 15 minutes before an active cell arrived to the area so if after all this you still decided to ignore the warnings, I have no sympathy. Most of the cells were tornado warned for a long time, and few of them had spotter-confirmed tornadoes. There was one that hit in SoMO that was rainwrapped; coupled with the darkness of the night, the only way it was confirmed was because it was backlit by lightning.

So TL;DR: there were hours to prepare...days actually. Anyone living in a tornado prone area MUST have a readiness plan in place.

TriJets wrote:
Moreover, common sense dictates that a large building is likely to withstand tornado damage better than a car or small house.

With this, I agree. If the building was not able to withstand the hit, then either the tornado's force exceeded the structural limit of the building or the building was poorly built. Had I worked at the candle factory or the Amazon warehouse, I too would have stayed inside rather than drive, but that's only because I trust that those buildings were strong enough. During the event, I decided to drive out to a parking garage made out of concrete because I knew that my apartment complex would not survive a hit, but I did it once the first tornado warnings hit my area; the cells were still far away for me to take my cat and a few items and drive out. We thankfully dodged a bullet.

Was thinking about you when the news reports started coming over. Knew you are in the STL area so very glad to hear you are safe and sound - Cheers
 
N649DL
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Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:14 pm

TriJets wrote:
Moreover, common sense dictates that a large building is likely to withstand tornado damage better than a car or small house.

With this, I agree. If the building was not able to withstand the hit, then either the tornado's force exceeded the structural limit of the building or the building was poorly built. Had I worked at the candle factory or the Amazon warehouse, I too would have stayed inside rather than drive, but that's only because I trust that those buildings were strong enough. During the event, I decided to drive out to a parking garage made out of concrete because I knew that my apartment complex would not survive a hit, but I did it once the first tornado warnings hit my area; the cells were still far away for me to take my cat and a few items and drive out. We thankfully dodged a bullet.[/quote]

See that's the interesting thing about outrunning Tornado Warnings in cars. NOAA recommends you shouldn't ever do it, but if you can and storm chasers can, wouldn't it sometimes be a viable option? There was a video I was watching on YT about a family who successfully outran an F5 tornado in 1997 around the AUS area at the last second.
 
SkyVoice
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Sat Dec 25, 2021 5:28 am

N649DL wrote:
See that's the interesting thing about outrunning Tornado Warnings in cars. NOAA recommends you shouldn't ever do it, but if you can and storm chasers can, wouldn't it sometimes be a viable option? There was a video I was watching on YT about a family who successfully outran an F5 tornado in 1997 around the AUS area at the last second.


Now, here's the thing about that. If you live in a part of the USA where the land is flat, there are no trees, and the roads are laid out in straight lines running north-south and east-west, you might get away with it. If you live in most parts of Kentucky (where I live), try to drive away from a tornado here and you will likely end up being a statistic! That's because our roads are anything BUT straight, and trees grow right up to the edge of the legal right-of-way. It is likely that you won't see a tornado bearing down on you, in fact you won't know anything is wrong until trees and debris start falling on top of you. Some drivers have been lucky and gotten away, but it's not a chance that I would take--or advise anyone else to take--in this neck of the woods.

Just remember, too, that even if you are in a vehicle near a tornado and you have terrain, visibility, and straight roads, that tornado can still get the best of you. The El Reno, Oklahoma tornado of May 31, 2013 was a gigantic beast that killed veteran storm chaser and meteorologist Tim Samaras, his son, Paul, and another researcher, and it nearly killed the Weather Channel's Mike Bettes! My advice is, when Mother Nature screams "gangway", get out of her way!
 
N649DL
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Sat Dec 25, 2021 6:33 am

SkyVoice wrote:
N649DL wrote:
See that's the interesting thing about outrunning Tornado Warnings in cars. NOAA recommends you shouldn't ever do it, but if you can and storm chasers can, wouldn't it sometimes be a viable option? There was a video I was watching on YT about a family who successfully outran an F5 tornado in 1997 around the AUS area at the last second.


Now, here's the thing about that. If you live in a part of the USA where the land is flat, there are no trees, and the roads are laid out in straight lines running north-south and east-west, you might get away with it. If you live in most parts of Kentucky (where I live), try to drive away from a tornado here and you will likely end up being a statistic! That's because our roads are anything BUT straight, and trees grow right up to the edge of the legal right-of-way. It is likely that you won't see a tornado bearing down on you, in fact you won't know anything is wrong until trees and debris start falling on top of you. Some drivers have been lucky and gotten away, but it's not a chance that I would take--or advise anyone else to take--in this neck of the woods.

Just remember, too, that even if you are in a vehicle near a tornado and you have terrain, visibility, and straight roads, that tornado can still get the best of you. The El Reno, Oklahoma tornado of May 31, 2013 was a gigantic beast that killed veteran storm chaser and meteorologist Tim Samaras, his son, Paul, and another researcher, and it nearly killed the Weather Channel's Mike Bettes! My advice is, when Mother Nature screams "gangway", get out of her way!


Crazy. Also if the tornado is rain wrapped then it would be harder to track and outrun. Just saying, right car and terrain but living in a place that's easily a goner, outrunning one in a car could be an option
 
SkyVoice
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Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Sun Dec 26, 2021 5:32 am

N649DL wrote:
Crazy. Also if the tornado is rain wrapped then it would be harder to track and outrun. Just saying, right car and terrain but living in a place that's easily a goner, outrunning one in a car could be an option


N649DL, I'm nodding in agreement with you there. Not only that, but there's the fact that this time of year is not the peak time of the year for tornadoes and severe thunderstorms in Kentucky. We have had tornadoes in December before, even ones causing injuries and deaths, but having a major outbreak that included the supercell with a paisley-shaped radar signature which produced the EF4 nocturnal tornado that flattened Mayfield is just unheard of!

Now, here is some news that NOBODY around here wants to hear, but I am hearing it loud and clear. The National Weather Service, along with several TV meteorologists in both Cincinnati and Lexington, are giving the public a heads up about a storm system that is forecast to strike the Ohio Valley on New Year's Day. It's still too far in advance for the Storm Prediction Center to make any specific projections, but I have learned that when all of the forecasters in my area start saying the same thing about possible severe weather on a specific day, we would all do well to pay attention!

https://www.spc.noaa.gov/

https://www.weather.gov/

https://aviationweather.gov/
 
N649DL
Posts: 1262
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Sun Dec 26, 2021 6:57 am

SkyVoice wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Crazy. Also if the tornado is rain wrapped then it would be harder to track and outrun. Just saying, right car and terrain but living in a place that's easily a goner, outrunning one in a car could be an option


N649DL, I'm nodding in agreement with you there. Not only that, but there's the fact that this time of year is not the peak time of the year for tornadoes and severe thunderstorms in Kentucky. We have had tornadoes in December before, even ones causing injuries and deaths, but having a major outbreak that included the supercell with a paisley-shaped radar signature which produced the EF4 nocturnal tornado that flattened Mayfield is just unheard of!

Now, here is some news that NOBODY around here wants to hear, but I am hearing it loud and clear. The National Weather Service, along with several TV meteorologists in both Cincinnati and Lexington, are giving the public a heads up about a storm system that is forecast to strike the Ohio Valley on New Year's Day. It's still too far in advance for the Storm Prediction Center to make any specific projections, but I have learned that when all of the forecasters in my area start saying the same thing about possible severe weather on a specific day, we would all do well to pay attention!

https://www.spc.noaa.gov/

https://www.weather.gov/

https://aviationweather.gov/


Oh boy. Well that's good news for me, I'll be in FL then but it's likely all this crap from CA right now that will pile up and track across the country. Nothing but being cold and rainy out here right now.

However, here's proof that the outrunning of tornadoes via cars is possible the Jarrell, TX 1997 tornado near Austin, TX: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBauRBN-8As&t=1482s

Also this is the night time tornado outbreak warning messages from Feb.1998 in Florida I was talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft566tu7Vyc&t=812s

I still remember kids in my 5th grade class flying back from Winter Break in NJ and witnessed it and gossiping about it. Both scenarios seemed incredibly bizarre. Yet, if I knew a path I'd take the risk and get in a car and floor it to dodge it.
 
SkyVoice
Posts: 572
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:34 pm

Re: Aftermath of Tornadoes in Central United Staes

Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:50 pm

Here's an update. It now looks like the storm system that will move across Kentucky will be mostly a heavy rain producer. There is a greater possibility of severe thunderstorms and tornadoes to the south of Kentucky, specifically in the western two-thirds of Tennessee, a slice of Eastern Arkansas, and the northern half of Mississippi and Alabama. While this is short-term good news for Kentucky, us Kentuckians will keep our brothers and sisters to our south in our thoughts and prayers.

And, I thank all of you A*Netters who have been so generous with your support for the victims of the tornadoes, whether you have donated to those charities that are directly involved in the recovery, or whether you have personally donated your time, your skills and your sweat for the benefit of the storm victims.

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