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bennett123
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Re: Sandy Hook school mass killing 9 years ago

Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:56 pm

Strangely, a lot of people here live in countries where every Tom, Dick and Harry is NOT armed.

We go out at night and live our lives and have never needed a gun.

Not all of us live in ivory towers either.
 
M564038
Posts: 1069
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Sandy Hook school mass killing 9 years ago

Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:06 am

Not going to give it to the criminal. He won't need it anymore. Simple logic shown to work in most civilized countries, this.

N626AA wrote:
M564038 wrote:
N626AA wrote:

Which would you rather disarm?

Since you ask. I would start with average gun owners.
Someone needs to stop it from escalating further.
Criminals use guns because they «have to».


I am an average gun owner. Sure, you can take my gun and give it to the criminal who "has to" use it. :highfive:
 
N626AA
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:02 pm

Re: Sandy Hook school mass killing 9 years ago

Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:29 am

M564038 wrote:
Not going to give it to the criminal. He won't need it anymore. Simple logic shown to work in most civilized countries, this.


I was being silly with my comment, but I get what you're saying. Eliminate the gun at the source, if you will, so the criminal can't get it and use it to commit gun related crimes. Am I correct? I think the problem is the US is saturated with so many guns and gun owners that we have many more bad apples as compared to a less armed civilian population of another country.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 17850
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Sandy Hook school mass killing 9 years ago

Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:55 am

N626AA wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Not going to give it to the criminal. He won't need it anymore. Simple logic shown to work in most civilized countries, this.


I was being silly with my comment, but I get what you're saying. Eliminate the gun at the source, if you will, so the criminal can't get it and use it to commit gun related crimes. Am I correct? I think the problem is the US is saturated with so many guns and gun owners that we have many more bad apples as compared to a less armed civilian population of another country.


Yes, that is the practical side of the problem. Gun lovers don’t want to admit there are too many ways around the laws we already have, and the left doesn’t want to admit trafficking networks that get them into hands of bad guys are too far ahead of the government to be stopped.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2353
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Sandy Hook school mass killing 9 years ago

Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:51 am

Aaron747 wrote:
N626AA wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Not going to give it to the criminal. He won't need it anymore. Simple logic shown to work in most civilized countries, this.


I was being silly with my comment, but I get what you're saying. Eliminate the gun at the source, if you will, so the criminal can't get it and use it to commit gun related crimes. Am I correct? I think the problem is the US is saturated with so many guns and gun owners that we have many more bad apples as compared to a less armed civilian population of another country.


Yes, that is the practical side of the problem. Gun lovers don’t want to admit there are too many ways around the laws we already have, and the left doesn’t want to admit trafficking networks that get them into hands of bad guys are too far ahead of the government to be stopped.


Is there a reason why enforcement strategies seem to fail? Too few resources or Insufficient will?
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 17850
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Re: Sandy Hook school mass killing 9 years ago

Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:40 am

Kent350787 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N626AA wrote:

I was being silly with my comment, but I get what you're saying. Eliminate the gun at the source, if you will, so the criminal can't get it and use it to commit gun related crimes. Am I correct? I think the problem is the US is saturated with so many guns and gun owners that we have many more bad apples as compared to a less armed civilian population of another country.


Yes, that is the practical side of the problem. Gun lovers don’t want to admit there are too many ways around the laws we already have, and the left doesn’t want to admit trafficking networks that get them into hands of bad guys are too far ahead of the government to be stopped.


Is there a reason why enforcement strategies seem to fail? Too few resources or Insufficient will?


Simple answer: both. Complex answer: the US is large and difficult to manage. Federal and state/local law enforcement don't always coordinate well together, opportunities get missed, changing political agendas get in the way of long-term execution, etc. Federal agency budgets often get cut in the middle of programs that have been running for years. Drugs, illicit guns, and urban poverty are issues that require multigenerational focus and execution to see major results, and the right combination of action, resourcing and will have never come together in the US. And that's only the government side - organized crime is led by people who are generally smart, adaptable, and can often get ahead of what government is doing to stop them.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 15004
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Sandy Hook school mass killing 9 years ago

Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:58 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Yes, that is the practical side of the problem. Gun lovers don’t want to admit there are too many ways around the laws we already have, and the left doesn’t want to admit trafficking networks that get them into hands of bad guys are too far ahead of the government to be stopped.


I have to push back on this statement. Why automatically is it "gun lovers" who try to get guns illegally? I would seem to think it's the criminals doing that not people who want to own guns legally.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sandy Hook school mass killing 9 years ago

Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:07 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Yes, that is the practical side of the problem. Gun lovers don’t want to admit there are too many ways around the laws we already have, and the left doesn’t want to admit trafficking networks that get them into hands of bad guys are too far ahead of the government to be stopped.


I have to push back on this statement. Why automatically is it "gun lovers" who try to get guns illegally? I would seem to think it's the criminals doing that not people who want to own guns legally.


It doesn't say that anywhere - try rereading the statement please.
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 884
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Sandy Hook school mass killing 9 years ago

Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:18 am

Aaron747 wrote:

Simple answer: both. Complex answer: the US is large and difficult to manage. Federal and state/local law enforcement don't always coordinate well together, opportunities get missed, changing political agendas get in the way of long-term execution, etc. Federal agency budgets often get cut in the middle of programs that have been running for years. Drugs, illicit guns, and urban poverty are issues that require multigenerational focus and execution to see major results, and the right combination of action, resourcing and will have never come together in the US. And that's only the government side - organized crime is led by people who are generally smart, adaptable, and can often get ahead of what government is doing to stop them.


I think that’s the problem with the USA. On one hand it’s easy to point to other nations with sensible gun laws and say “copy them”. The reality is it’s the whole society that’s sick.

To truly address the problems of guns, crime, poverty, racism and violence your country needs a total makeover. Full universal healthcare including mental healthcare, prison reform, police reform, drug law reform, a property social safety net, a proper education system, proper worker’s rights and minimum wage to eliminate the working poor, elimination of the militarisation of police and society.

Then maybe you can get some actual gun control passed.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sandy Hook school mass killing 9 years ago

Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:34 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Simple answer: both. Complex answer: the US is large and difficult to manage. Federal and state/local law enforcement don't always coordinate well together, opportunities get missed, changing political agendas get in the way of long-term execution, etc. Federal agency budgets often get cut in the middle of programs that have been running for years. Drugs, illicit guns, and urban poverty are issues that require multigenerational focus and execution to see major results, and the right combination of action, resourcing and will have never come together in the US. And that's only the government side - organized crime is led by people who are generally smart, adaptable, and can often get ahead of what government is doing to stop them.


I think that’s the problem with the USA. On one hand it’s easy to point to other nations with sensible gun laws and say “copy them”. The reality is it’s the whole society that’s sick.

To truly address the problems of guns, crime, poverty, racism and violence your country needs a total makeover. Full universal healthcare including mental healthcare, prison reform, police reform, drug law reform, a property social safety net, a proper education system, proper worker’s rights and minimum wage to eliminate the working poor, elimination of the militarisation of police and society.

Then maybe you can get some actual gun control passed.


Precisely - gun control itself is a false panacea.
 
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argentinevol98
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Re: Sandy Hook school mass killing 9 years ago

Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:56 pm

My little bit here, and yes this is anecdotal, but I feel is worth sharing. I have lived a majority of my life in the US. I currently live in a poor, "third-world", South American country. There is far more crime here (theft, robbery, etc.), there is far more poverty, there is far more inequality, there is far more domestic and familial violence, there is far far worse mental health outcomes and very little help (much less than in the US) accessible to the masses, organized crime has a much larger presence in every facet of society than in the US.

ALL of these factors should indicate that there would be a way higher murder rate than in the US. But....there isn't. The murder rate here is LOWER than it is in the United States. Realistically, the only factor that can account for that phenomenon is firearms. Every thing else points in the opposite direction. Gun ownership is almost non-existent here. It is very heavily restricted and in essence only limited to a small range of hunters and the like in rural parts of the country-and even then, they do not use semi-automatic weapons. People still get robbed, and that sucks without a doubt, but few people get slaughtered.

Here's the thing about humans and guns, if you have the power to end a human life in the millisecond it takes to pull a trigger, and can do so without having to even get up close and personal with another person, you are far more likely to do it in a moment of anger or extreme stress. This may sound morbid, but beating a person to death is hard and takes time. Most people, even violent people, will cool off before reaching the point of no-return. And even if the person doesn't calm down, others can stop them before said point of no return. With a gun, the point of no-return is an instant. You can't do much when the wanna-be killer has a gun. Even if you have a gun, all you can do shoot the person after the deed is done or shoot first. Either way someone ends up maimed or killed, neither usually happens when it is down to fists and even knives.

This is also why the suicide rate in the US is abnormally high, people can make that decision and in an instant be dead. Most other forms of suicide take longer and have longer time for a person to "back out" or be saved.

Guns make it very easy to kill people. When it is easy to kill, more killing will happen.

To relate to the official topic at hand, the shooter in the Sandy Hook case would never have been able to kill so many innocent people if it wasn't fir his fire-arm. No, I don't think he would have "cooled-off" as some examples given in my previous comments, but he would have likely been stopped.It wouldn't have taken more than a couple of adults to restrain him. These things simply don't happen in most countries, even ones where factors towards violence are much higher than in the US.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 15004
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Sandy Hook school mass killing 9 years ago

Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:07 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Yes, that is the practical side of the problem. Gun lovers don’t want to admit there are too many ways around the laws we already have, and the left doesn’t want to admit trafficking networks that get them into hands of bad guys are too far ahead of the government to be stopped.


I have to push back on this statement. Why automatically is it "gun lovers" who try to get guns illegally? I would seem to think it's the criminals doing that not people who want to own guns legally.


It doesn't say that anywhere - try rereading the statement please.


I apoligize but I still that statement is false. Sure know there are many ways to get a gun illegally, many pro 2A people admit this but potential legislation and rhetoric goes towards total bans and that is why nothing gets done. That and the mental health aspect of it.
 
santi319
Posts: 1281
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Re: Sandy Hook school mass killing 9 years ago

Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:21 pm

I learned that this is a lost battle. Americans are OBSESSED with guns, and they will never change. No matter what, sure there will be some forward thinking states, but ultimately the guns can be purchased in the next state (the irony of the Mexican cartel’s gun violence with guns that they purchase in the US, while fighting amongst themselves to traffic drugs to the US).

Gun control will simply never happen, and many will more than likely die, but its the way of life in the US. If they didn’t care about literal little children being slaughtered, they will never care. Its done.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sandy Hook school mass killing 9 years ago

Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:23 pm

santi319 wrote:
I learned that this is a lost battle. Americans are OBSESSED with guns, and they will never change. No matter what, sure there will be some forward thinking states, but ultimately the guns can be purchased in the next state (the irony of the Mexican cartel’s gun violence with guns that they purchase in the US, while fighting amongst themselves to traffic drugs to the US).

Gun control will simply never happen, and many will more than likely die, but its the way of life in the US. If they didn’t care about literal little children being slaughtered, they will never care. Its done.


You point out something that often gets lost - Mexico's problems with the cartels are wholly interrelated with internal issues in the US and the associated demand for drugs.
 
santi319
Posts: 1281
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Sandy Hook school mass killing 9 years ago

Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:30 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
santi319 wrote:
I learned that this is a lost battle. Americans are OBSESSED with guns, and they will never change. No matter what, sure there will be some forward thinking states, but ultimately the guns can be purchased in the next state (the irony of the Mexican cartel’s gun violence with guns that they purchase in the US, while fighting amongst themselves to traffic drugs to the US).

Gun control will simply never happen, and many will more than likely die, but its the way of life in the US. If they didn’t care about literal little children being slaughtered, they will never care. Its done.


You point out something that often gets lost - Mexico's problems with the cartels are wholly interrelated with internal issues in the US and the associated demand for drugs.


Exactly, and theres always something sadly poetic about an American that dies in a Mexican resort during a cartel gun battle, with an American purchased gun..

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