Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
hashtagconfused
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:35 pm

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:19 am

seb146 wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’d say Manchin is pretty good politician, he’s representing his state as the state would want him to vote. He’s popular there, he’s the only state-wide elected Democrat, has been re-elected after being the governor, in a state Trump won 2-1. WV didn’t send him to the Senate to back Chuck Schumer or the “Squad” or Joe Biden. He’s actually a moderate who voted to convict Trump, he’s voted with his party about 62%. Joe’s his own man compared to the sheep on the Hill.

https://apnews.com/article/ap-fact-chec ... b42e28e084

https://projects.propublica.org/represe ... -party/115

Indeed, Senator Manchin is representing his state. If he were to cave I guarantee he would not get reelected, and rightfully so.


This bill would help citizens of his state by providing child care and better paying jobs. So, he and his constituents are against that? Oh, that's right... it would give Biden and Democrats a win and, really, that is more important than improving people's lives...


Is it possible people want those things, but just don't want to achieve them the way outlined in the spending bill?
 
hashtagconfused
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:35 pm

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:21 am

seb146 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Interesting. When Democrats stood up for what they believed in, before now, they were called all sorts of nasty names and told how hated we are and how unpatrioitc we are for standing in the way of MAGA and Republican bills. Funny how things change....


I don’t think the mainstream people had any problem with standing against MAGA. Standing against Trump was easy, kind of compulsory in universities. Kind of like chastity was compulsory at universities in the 1950s. Different, but sharing a vein of cultural conformity.


But, here's the thing:

People listened to both sides and did their own research and found MAGA and their dear leader were bad for freedom and bad for the Constitution. Why is that not possible?


Perhaps people have listened to both sides and made their decision on this. Or is that not possible too?
 
ItnStln
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:46 pm

hashtagconfused wrote:
seb146 wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
Indeed, Senator Manchin is representing his state. If he were to cave I guarantee he would not get reelected, and rightfully so.


This bill would help citizens of his state by providing child care and better paying jobs. So, he and his constituents are against that? Oh, that's right... it would give Biden and Democrats a win and, really, that is more important than improving people's lives...


Is it possible people want those things, but just don't want to achieve them the way outlined in the spending bill?

Indeed, while I am against the majority of the bill the cost doesn't justify the few items in the bill that I want.
 
ItnStln
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:49 pm

seb146 wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’d say Manchin is pretty good politician, he’s representing his state as the state would want him to vote. He’s popular there, he’s the only state-wide elected Democrat, has been re-elected after being the governor, in a state Trump won 2-1. WV didn’t send him to the Senate to back Chuck Schumer or the “Squad” or Joe Biden. He’s actually a moderate who voted to convict Trump, he’s voted with his party about 62%. Joe’s his own man compared to the sheep on the Hill.

https://apnews.com/article/ap-fact-chec ... b42e28e084

https://projects.propublica.org/represe ... -party/115

Indeed, Senator Manchin is representing his state. If he were to cave I guarantee he would not get reelected, and rightfully so.


This bill would help citizens of his state by providing child care and better paying jobs. So, he and his constituents are against that? Oh, that's right... it would give Biden and Democrats a win and, really, that is more important than improving people's lives...

Those two items are not worth the cost of the bill. Senator Manchin represented his state, as he was elected to do, and I hope he gets reelected for standing up to his party and representing his state.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24469
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:03 pm

ItnStln wrote:
hashtagconfused wrote:
seb146 wrote:

This bill would help citizens of his state by providing child care and better paying jobs. So, he and his constituents are against that? Oh, that's right... it would give Biden and Democrats a win and, really, that is more important than improving people's lives...


Is it possible people want those things, but just don't want to achieve them the way outlined in the spending bill?

Indeed, while I am against the majority of the bill the cost doesn't justify the few items in the bill that I want.


https://morningconsult.com/2021/11/22/b ... t-polling/

About half of all Americans support BBB. That includes voters in West Virginia. Even knowing this would provide child care to a state that really needs it, I doubt the voters of West Virginia would vote against it. Manchin said he wanted various things taken out. They were. The bill was cut from $6 trillion to $2 trillion and is nearly all paid for. Unlike tax cuts for the rich Republicans passed under the previous administration.
 
bennett123
Posts: 11080
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:29 pm

So which bits is he still unhappy with?.
 
DLPMMM
Topic Author
Posts: 2347
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 am

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:24 pm

bennett123 wrote:
So which bits is he still unhappy with?.


I think his major problem is that BBB has the spending over 3 years while the income is spread over 10 years, making the real cost more like $6 trillion over the 10 years and an additional $4 trillion in deficit spending over the period.

Smoke and mirrors accounting.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1639
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:37 pm

DLPMMM wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
So which bits is he still unhappy with?.


I think his major problem is that BBB has the spending over 3 years while the income is spread over 10 years, making the real cost more like $6 trillion over the 10 years and an additional $4 trillion in deficit spending over the period.

Smoke and mirrors accounting.


Correct, when people say it is "paid for," it really means that they are either fools, or untrustworthy liars.

I don't even think Joe Manchin is a good person. I think he is a corrupt coal guy. But, he has higher morals than nearly everyone else, because DC is a swamp absolutely filled with white collar criminals.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24469
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:27 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
So which bits is he still unhappy with?.


I think his major problem is that BBB has the spending over 3 years while the income is spread over 10 years, making the real cost more like $6 trillion over the 10 years and an additional $4 trillion in deficit spending over the period.

Smoke and mirrors accounting.


Correct, when people say it is "paid for," it really means that they are either fools, or untrustworthy liars.

I don't even think Joe Manchin is a good person. I think he is a corrupt coal guy. But, he has higher morals than nearly everyone else, because DC is a swamp absolutely filled with white collar criminals.


So it IS paid for. And taxes will not be raised on those making under $400,000. Money does not just appear, unless you are the military. BBB needs seed money and it will be paid when all is said and done.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1639
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:26 pm

seb146 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:

I think his major problem is that BBB has the spending over 3 years while the income is spread over 10 years, making the real cost more like $6 trillion over the 10 years and an additional $4 trillion in deficit spending over the period.

Smoke and mirrors accounting.


Correct, when people say it is "paid for," it really means that they are either fools, or untrustworthy liars.

I don't even think Joe Manchin is a good person. I think he is a corrupt coal guy. But, he has higher morals than nearly everyone else, because DC is a swamp absolutely filled with white collar criminals.


So it IS paid for. And taxes will not be raised on those making under $400,000. Money does not just appear, unless you are the military. BBB needs seed money and it will be paid when all is said and done.


The point being made is they are counting ten years of revenue (probably rosy projection too) against three years of expenses. At any point in time, it is 30% paid for. The rest (70%) is debt, meaning inflation and interest rate costs, which of course aren’t included either. I don’t know if either side is correct, but at least that is the argument taking place.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24469
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:34 am

LCDFlight wrote:
seb146 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:

Correct, when people say it is "paid for," it really means that they are either fools, or untrustworthy liars.

I don't even think Joe Manchin is a good person. I think he is a corrupt coal guy. But, he has higher morals than nearly everyone else, because DC is a swamp absolutely filled with white collar criminals.


So it IS paid for. And taxes will not be raised on those making under $400,000. Money does not just appear, unless you are the military. BBB needs seed money and it will be paid when all is said and done.


The point being made is they are counting ten years of revenue (probably rosy projection too) against three years of expenses. At any point in time, it is 30% paid for. The rest (70%) is debt, meaning inflation and interest rate costs, which of course aren’t included either. I don’t know if either side is correct, but at least that is the argument taking place.


But giving tax breaks with nothing in return is better? That was the whole premise of the Republican spending plan passed in 2016. Is it better to theoretically have infrastructure paid for or is it better to simply give money away? THAT is the Democrats point.
 
cairns
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:12 pm

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:09 pm

Dead in the water thank God. Your would think Bareshelves Democrats would learn.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14998
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:46 am

cairns wrote:
Dead in the water thank God. Your would think Bareshelves Democrats would learn.


Nope they are going all the way with the radical, extremist members of their party and now not much will get done. Sadly no matter what happens in the mid terms meaningful legislation isn't possible until we get someone different in the white house.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11834
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:01 am

NIKV69 wrote:
cairns wrote:
Dead in the water thank God. Your would think Bareshelves Democrats would learn.


Nope they are going all the way with the radical, extremist members of their party and now not much will get done. Sadly no matter what happens in the mid terms meaningful legislation isn't possible until we get someone different in the white house.

Not different. Someone who is not bad and is not deified and is not vilified.

And that will mean getting people in the legislature that are willing to compromise and do "back room deals" etc.

Tugg
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17840
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:09 am

Tugger wrote:
Not different. Someone who is not bad and is not deified and is not vilified.


I am not confident conditions exist for having a POTUS like that again. :shakehead:
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14998
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:24 am

Tugger wrote:
Not different. Someone who is not bad and is not deified and is not vilified.

And that will mean getting people in the legislature that are willing to compromise and do "back room deals" etc.

Tugg


Aaron747 wrote:

I am not confident conditions exist for having a POTUS like that again. :shakehead:


How a president is treated by the media and other elected officials has nothing to do with whether he or she will sign or not sign a bill or how said person deals with his party when there is infighting and lack of support on a bill. A true leader say like Magaret Thatcher didn't let things like that interfere with being a leader. Also once again I need to remind you that BBB is not dead in the water because of the GOP. Many here are trying to ignore that fact.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17840
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:29 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Not different. Someone who is not bad and is not deified and is not vilified.

And that will mean getting people in the legislature that are willing to compromise and do "back room deals" etc.

Tugg


Aaron747 wrote:

I am not confident conditions exist for having a POTUS like that again. :shakehead:


How a president is treated by the media and other elected officials has nothing to do with whether he or she will sign or not sign a bill or how said person deals with his party when there is infighting and lack of support on a bill. A true leader say like Magaret Thatcher didn't let things like that interfere with being a leader. Also once again I need to remind you that BBB is not dead in the water because of the GOP. Many here are trying to ignore that fact.


Deification and vilification do not only occur in the media - they happen within parties and legislatures, as you well know.

You’ll also note Thatcher enjoyed 60% disapproval ratings when leaving office.
 
pune
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: WP: Manchin will not vote for Build Back Better

Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:47 am

Aaron747 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Not different. Someone who is not bad and is not deified and is not vilified.

And that will mean getting people in the legislature that are willing to compromise and do "back room deals" etc.

Tugg


Aaron747 wrote:

I am not confident conditions exist for having a POTUS like that again. :shakehead:


How a president is treated by the media and other elected officials has nothing to do with whether he or she will sign or not sign a bill or how said person deals with his party when there is infighting and lack of support on a bill. A true leader say like Magaret Thatcher didn't let things like that interfere with being a leader. Also once again I need to remind you that BBB is not dead in the water because of the GOP. Many here are trying to ignore that fact.


Deification and vilification do not only occur in the media - they happen within parties and legislatures, as you well know.

You’ll also note Thatcher enjoyed 60% disapproval ratings when leaving office.


That is because the policies she did led to deindustrialization in UK and also is in the current Govt. in UK.

https://notesfrombelow.org/article/dein ... nd-decline

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: kelval and 24 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos