Cruise Ship/Ocean Liner Thread -2022

ArchGuy1 · Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:10 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
The Carnival Fascination was beached at Gadani Ship Breaking Yard in Pakistan under the name Century Harmony in mid February. The Fascination was built for Carnival in 1994 and sailed until the COVID-19 pandemic in 2020. The ship was then sold to Century Cruises in China, which planned to operate her in the Asian market. There were also plans to use the ship as a floating hotel along the lines of the Queen Mary in Long Beach or the QE2 in Dubai. The ship wad then sold to a trading company in Singapore, who then sold the ship for scrap. This is a ship with about 15 years of life left that was scrapped because the Delta and Omicron variants prolonged the COVID-19 pandemic.
https://www.cruisehive.com/former-carni ... lity/66225

Even before COVID, the cruise industry was suffering from overcapacity. For example, Out of Long Beach (and previously San Pedro), Carnival has operated a 3-night weekend / 4-night weekday cruise to Ensenada (the 4-day adds a stop at Catalina Island) ever since I can remember. In the mid-90s, the starting price was $250pp (based on double occupancy) plus $99 per child (up to four people per cabin). Discounting in that era was extremely rare. In recent years, the starting price of that exact same cruise has been $99pp, with frequent promotions in which the third and fourth person travel free. So while the cost to travel has swelled beyond inflation over that past 25 years… the cost of cruising has dropped, and that’s not even considering inflation.

Pre-COVID, it was obvious that Carnival’s 8 Fantasy-class ships were on borrowed time; they simply could not generate enough revenue to cover the cruise line’s swelling costs. Would those ships have found homes with other operators? Maybe some of them, but again, the industry has suffered from overcapacity, and not only were budget start-up cruises faltering, but the industry’s attempt to expand into Asia has largely been too much too quickly.

So now, COVID didn’t shave 15 years off the ships life.

Many ocean liners and cruise ships built from the 1950's onward sailed 40-50 years before being scrapped. This is despite the fact that about half of the 1950's liners were scrapped during the oil crisis of the 1970's. The list of 1950's liners that sailed to the 2000's is still too large to list off the top of my head. Most of the 1960's liners sailed 40-50 years before being scrapped and the same with the late 1960's and 1970's purpose built cruise ships. Many of the early 1980's purpose built cruise ships have sailed for over 40 years.

Drafran · Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:18 pm

johns624 wrote:
Drafran wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I'm on vacation and I don't want to dress up to impress nobody. NCL all the way for me. I don't know how people dress on Caribbean cruises because I've never been on one but I've never thought it was bad on my Alaska/Australia/Baltic/Norwegian/Med cruises. Nothing wrong with good jeans and a button down or golf shirt.

Oh, you know...bathrobes, jammies, colorful underwear...and of course those black garters that hold up black socks. Comfort is all that matters!
What cruise line have you seen that on? I've never seen anything like that.

The cruise line where no one dresses to impress anyone and it's all about their comfort and nothing else matters.

Drafran · Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:19 pm

OA260 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Drafran wrote:

Oh, you know...bathrobes, jammies, colorful underwear...and of course those black garters that hold up black socks. Comfort is all that matters!
What cruise line have you seen that on? I've never seen anything like that.

Atlantis Gay cruises maybe lol

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK! The guy in the elevator.

johns624 · Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:39 pm

Drafran wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Drafran wrote:

Oh, you know...bathrobes, jammies, colorful underwear...and of course those black garters that hold up black socks. Comfort is all that matters!
What cruise line have you seen that on? I've never seen anything like that.

The cruise line where no one dresses to impress anyone and it's all about their comfort and nothing else matters.

Not an answer.

WidebodyPTV · Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:40 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Many ocean liners and cruise ships built from the 1950's onward sailed 40-50 years before being scrapped. This is despite the fact that about half of the 1950's liners were scrapped during the oil crisis of the 1970's. The list of 1950's liners that sailed to the 2000's is still too large to list off the top of my head. Most of the 1960's liners sailed 40-50 years before being scrapped and the same with the late 1960's and 1970's purpose built cruise ships. Many of the early 1980's purpose built cruise ships have sailed for over 40 years.

It's economics, not age. Carnival's Destiny-class, which is roughly the same age as the latter build Fantasy-class ships, will probably sail another 15-20 years. But the Fantasy-class ships lack revenue-generating features & amenities (like balconies, private decks, etc.) desired & found on modern ships. Carnival started to overhaul theses ships before lessening the scope of the project as the ROI wasn't there. Cruising was fading in the 1990s, before exploding in popularity in the 2000s. There's too many ships coming onto the market to justify keeping them all in service. This would've been true regardless of COVID. Asian aspirations -- the growth area of focus over the past decade -- have largely been a bust.

mikesbucky · Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:14 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
mikesbucky wrote:
The Sun Viking was beached at Gandhi Breach in Pakistan for scrapping after a 50 year career. The ship entered service in 1972 for Royal Caribbean and sailed for them until the late 1990's. The ship then sailed with a variety of operators in Asia until 2020, most recently as a casino ship under the name Oriental Dragon. Wish this ship was preserved as a hotel and museum ship. Possible locations that could have happened include Miami, Daytona Beach, Oslo, Helsinki, and New York City.
https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2022 ... n-scrapped

Sad to see this. I sailed on Sun Viking on my first cruise. I also saw her in Hong Kong back in 2019 when she was the Oriental Dragon. She wasn't in good shape and I'm not surprised she's being scrapped. I would've preferred she was sunk as an artificial reef. Sun Viking was a small ship for a cruise liner, but she would've made a great dive site.

Do you think she would have been good for use as a hotel and museum ship.

No I don't. She was a small ship of no historical importance. Not every ship needs to be preserved in that manner. In fact, very few are of enough historical consequence to even consider it. But as an artificial reef she would've been great. Enough size for multiple dives to be interesting, but short enough it could be sunk in shallow water making most of the ship accessible for recreational divers without interfering with any shipping traffic above it. Unlike the new megaships which are far too large for this purpose.

johns624 · Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:53 pm

mikesbucky wrote:
[short enough it could be sunk in shallow water making most of the ship accessible for recreational divers without interfering with any shipping traffic above it. Unlike the new megaships which are far too large for this purpose.

The new ships are so ugly they need to be sunk in the Mariannas Trench!

ArchGuy1 · Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:28 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Many ocean liners and cruise ships built from the 1950's onward sailed 40-50 years before being scrapped. This is despite the fact that about half of the 1950's liners were scrapped during the oil crisis of the 1970's. The list of 1950's liners that sailed to the 2000's is still too large to list off the top of my head. Most of the 1960's liners sailed 40-50 years before being scrapped and the same with the late 1960's and 1970's purpose built cruise ships. Many of the early 1980's purpose built cruise ships have sailed for over 40 years.

It's economics, not age. Carnival's Destiny-class, which is roughly the same age as the latter build Fantasy-class ships, will probably sail another 15-20 years. But the Fantasy-class ships lack revenue-generating features & amenities (like balconies, private decks, etc.) desired & found on modern ships. Carnival started to overhaul theses ships before lessening the scope of the project as the ROI wasn't there. Cruising was fading in the 1990s, before exploding in popularity in the 2000s. There's too many ships coming onto the market to justify keeping them all in service. This would've been true regardless of COVID. Asian aspirations -- the growth area of focus over the past decade -- have largely been a bust.

There were many ships that lacked amenities desired on other ships built from the 1950's onward pre pandemic that sailed 40-50 years before being scrapped. Even ships that were outdated at 25-30 years of age like Sun Viking, Song of Norway, Nordic Prince, Song of America, Tropicale, Transvaal Castle, Empress of Britain/Carnival, and quite a lot others have sailed at least 40 years before being scrapped.

WidebodyPTV · Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:53 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Many ocean liners and cruise ships built from the 1950's onward sailed 40-50 years before being scrapped. This is despite the fact that about half of the 1950's liners were scrapped during the oil crisis of the 1970's. The list of 1950's liners that sailed to the 2000's is still too large to list off the top of my head. Most of the 1960's liners sailed 40-50 years before being scrapped and the same with the late 1960's and 1970's purpose built cruise ships. Many of the early 1980's purpose built cruise ships have sailed for over 40 years.

It's economics, not age. Carnival's Destiny-class, which is roughly the same age as the latter build Fantasy-class ships, will probably sail another 15-20 years. But the Fantasy-class ships lack revenue-generating features & amenities (like balconies, private decks, etc.) desired & found on modern ships. Carnival started to overhaul theses ships before lessening the scope of the project as the ROI wasn't there. Cruising was fading in the 1990s, before exploding in popularity in the 2000s. There's too many ships coming onto the market to justify keeping them all in service. This would've been true regardless of COVID. Asian aspirations -- the growth area of focus over the past decade -- have largely been a bust.

There were many ships that lacked amenities desired on other ships built from the 1950's onward pre pandemic that sailed 40-50 years before being scrapped. Even ships that were outdated at 25-30 years of age like Sun Viking, Song of Norway, Nordic Prince, Song of America, Tropicale, Transvaal Castle, Empress of Britain/Carnival, and quite a lot others have sailed at least 40 years before being scrapped.

Again, it's economics, not age, nor can you compare different eras. Who would want those ships? There were more cruise ships built in the 2000s than the previous several decades combined; even prior to COVID, it was inevitable that many of these ships would wind up on the second-hand market as the industry's largest operators renewed their fleets. Put simply, the Asian and low-cost European cruise operators had/will have plenty of options to choose from, and the ships most capable of generating revenue will be the most attractive. The primary reason the ships you cited last so long is because so few cruise ships were built until the 1990s.

ArchGuy1 · Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:29 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

It's economics, not age. Carnival's Destiny-class, which is roughly the same age as the latter build Fantasy-class ships, will probably sail another 15-20 years. But the Fantasy-class ships lack revenue-generating features & amenities (like balconies, private decks, etc.) desired & found on modern ships. Carnival started to overhaul theses ships before lessening the scope of the project as the ROI wasn't there. Cruising was fading in the 1990s, before exploding in popularity in the 2000s. There's too many ships coming onto the market to justify keeping them all in service. This would've been true regardless of COVID. Asian aspirations -- the growth area of focus over the past decade -- have largely been a bust.

There were many ships that lacked amenities desired on other ships built from the 1950's onward pre pandemic that sailed 40-50 years before being scrapped. Even ships that were outdated at 25-30 years of age like Sun Viking, Song of Norway, Nordic Prince, Song of America, Tropicale, Transvaal Castle, Empress of Britain/Carnival, and quite a lot others have sailed at least 40 years before being scrapped.

Again, it's economics, not age, nor can you compare different eras. Who would want those ships? There were more cruise ships built in the 2000s than the previous several decades combined; even prior to COVID, it was inevitable that many of these ships would wind up on the second-hand market as the industry's largest operators renewed their fleets. Put simply, the Asian and low-cost European cruise operators had/will have plenty of options to choose from, and the ships most capable of generating revenue will be the most attractive. The primary reason the ships you cited last so long is because so few cruise ships were built until the 1990s.

Despite the massive number of cruise ships built in the 2000's, many 1970's and early 1980's purpose built cruise ships sailed 40-50 years before being scrapped. It was still economically viable for then to go to secondhand and thirdhand markets, even those outdated at 25-30 years of age. This included the cheaply built Cunard Adventurer. Ten years ago, it was virtually unheard of for a 1970's built cruise ship to have been scrapped, even an early 1970's ship.

johns624 · Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:43 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Ten years ago, it was virtually unheard of for a 1970's built cruise ship to have been scrapped, even an early 1970's ship.

Ten years ago, they were ten years younger. Why don't you try a cruise yourself? Then you can tell us what amenities you want. My wife and I spent our wedding night on the Queen Mary in Long Beach. Since then, we've gone on half a dozen cruises on NCL's older, smaller ships Sun, Star, Jewel, Gem, Pearl). We'll take their cabins over the QM's any day of the week.

einsteinboricua · Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:49 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
The primary reason the ships you cited last so long is because so few cruise ships were built until the 1990s.

You must be new here...you're wasting time. Every time a cruiseship is slated to be scrapped, ArchGuy1 will insist that the ship has life with another operator or as a floating hotel. If the ship was noteworthy to the company (like Paradise for having been the first non-smoking ship, or Voyager of the Seas for being the largest cruise ship when she debuted) he'll insist that it be permanently moored and preserved as a museum.

Economics? Safety? What's that?

Drafran wrote:
I'm with you. The nerve of cruise lines asking their passengers to dress better than the average WalMart shopper.

I'll bite.

Exactly what is it about MY preference to stick to a casual dress code that prompted such a snarky and unwarranted reply? If I wanted to dress to impress, I'd do so with a luxury line. As I have no interest in suit and tie, I fail to see how a polo shirt and jeans are the equivalent of a WalMart shopper, unless you somehow go to your local restaurant dressed like a Titanic first class passenger.

ArchGuy1 · Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:49 pm

johns624 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Ten years ago, it was virtually unheard of for a 1970's built cruise ship to have been scrapped, even an early 1970's ship.
Ten years ago, they were ten years younger. Why don't you try a cruise yourself? Then you can tell us what amenities you want. My wife and I spent our wedding night on the Queen Mary in Long Beach. Since then, we've gone on half a dozen cruises on NCL's older, smaller ships Sun, Star, Jewel, Gem, Pearl). We'll take their cabins over the QM's any day of the week.

What I am pointing out is that a lot of ships that have been scrapped during the pandemic are much newer than the age the ships I am referring in the previous posts were at the time they were scrapped.

johns624 · Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:03 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
What I am pointing out is that a lot of ships that have been scrapped during the pandemic are much newer than the age the ships I am referring in the previous posts were at the time they were scrapped.

That's because technology is progressing faster every year. Look at cellphones, computers, even cars. Things that were luxuries are now standard. I remember when power steering and brakes were a big deal. Now you have autosteer and autobraking. Same with ships. Where for decades, ships had steam turbines, now they have low speed diesels. Stabilizing fins improve the ride greatly and bow and stern thrusters let the megaships get into ports that smaller ships had trouble with 30 years ago. Look at airplanes. Would you still want to ride around in a Connie or DC7?

FGITD · Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:15 pm

johns624 wrote:
Would you still want to ride around in a Connie or DC7?

Oh brother, Wrong site for that question!

It’s simple economics. The old ships cost more and don’t make as much. Plus compare the amenities on ships now vs even just 20 years ago and it’s a World of difference

johns624 · Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:33 am

FGITD wrote:

Oh brother, Wrong site for that question!

It’s simple economics. The old ships cost more and don’t make as much. Plus compare the amenities on ships now vs even just 20 years ago and it’s a World of difference

Touche! I meant every flight, all the time.

WidebodyPTV · Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:51 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Ten years ago, it was virtually unheard of for a 1970's built cruise ship to have been scrapped, even an early 1970's ship.
Ten years ago, they were ten years younger. Why don't you try a cruise yourself? Then you can tell us what amenities you want. My wife and I spent our wedding night on the Queen Mary in Long Beach. Since then, we've gone on half a dozen cruises on NCL's older, smaller ships Sun, Star, Jewel, Gem, Pearl). We'll take their cabins over the QM's any day of the week.

What I am pointing out is that a lot of ships that have been scrapped during the pandemic are much newer than the age the ships I am referring in the previous posts were at the time they were scrapped.

You keep focusing on age, rather than the totality of the arguments being presented. Let's put it another way: prior to the second half of the 1990s, cruising had limited appeal = few cruise ships existed. Cruising swelled in popularity; demand exceeded capacity. Few cruise ships in existence = make lots of $$$ = greater longevity. But in recent years, capacity has been growing faster than demand, leading to free falling cruise fares (illustrated in my initial response to you). Several cruise lines planned/projected a major expansion into Asia, but the demand never materialized, thus - even prior to COVID - these ships began deployment elsewhere. Excess capacity + aging ships = lots of cruise ships - built mainly in the 1990s and early 2000s - being put onto the market. Because so many ships are available, only the best of the best will survive. That means the Fantasy class ships -- which have no balconies (sans a few that were pressed on, but don't support loungers), no room for private decks, limited spa, etc. -- met an early demise, even though they were built in the 1990s.

ArchGuy1 · Fri Apr 08, 2022 2:40 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Ten years ago, they were ten years younger. Why don't you try a cruise yourself? Then you can tell us what amenities you want. My wife and I spent our wedding night on the Queen Mary in Long Beach. Since then, we've gone on half a dozen cruises on NCL's older, smaller ships Sun, Star, Jewel, Gem, Pearl). We'll take their cabins over the QM's any day of the week.

What I am pointing out is that a lot of ships that have been scrapped during the pandemic are much newer than the age the ships I am referring in the previous posts were at the time they were scrapped.

You keep focusing on age, rather than the totality of the arguments being presented. Let's put it another way: prior to the second half of the 1990s, cruising had limited appeal = few cruise ships existed. Cruising swelled in popularity; demand exceeded capacity. Few cruise ships in existence = make lots of $$$ = greater longevity. But in recent years, capacity has been growing faster than demand, leading to free falling cruise fares (illustrated in my initial response to you). Several cruise lines planned/projected a major expansion into Asia, but the demand never materialized, thus - even prior to COVID - these ships began deployment elsewhere. Excess capacity + aging ships = lots of cruise ships - built mainly in the 1990s and early 2000s - being put onto the market. Because so many ships are available, only the best of the best will survive. That means the Fantasy class ships -- which have no balconies (sans a few that were pressed on, but don't support loungers), no room for private decks, limited spa, etc. -- met an early demise, even though they were built in the 1990s.

How were things different 10 years ago in the early 2010's, where it was viable to keep even early 1970's cruise ships in service with second hand markets that were outdated even in the late 1990's and early 2000's despite many cruise ships being built in the 1990's and 2000's. The Tropicale and Song of America from the early 1980's were even less suited for the early 2010's than the Carnival Fantasy and Sovereign of the Seas were for 2020. The Tropicale was scrapped due to the pandemic at about 40 years of age and Song of America is back in service despite being about 40 years of age. The Tropicale would have sailed a little over 40 years had it not been for COVID-19. This is why I thought some of the 1990's ships that were scrapped had 15 to 20 more years left.

Drafran · Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:59 pm

johns624 wrote:
Drafran wrote:
johns624 wrote:
What cruise line have you seen that on? I've never seen anything like that.

The cruise line where no one dresses to impress anyone and it's all about their comfort and nothing else matters.
Not an answer.

Guess that's the one you're getting, though.

ArchGuy1 · Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:52 am

mikesbucky wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
mikesbucky wrote:
The Sun Viking was beached at Gandhi Breach in Pakistan for scrapping after a 50 year career. The ship entered service in 1972 for Royal Caribbean and sailed for them until the late 1990's. The ship then sailed with a variety of operators in Asia until 2020, most recently as a casino ship under the name Oriental Dragon. Wish this ship was preserved as a hotel and museum ship. Possible locations that could have happened include Miami, Daytona Beach, Oslo, Helsinki, and New York City.
https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2022 ... n-scrapped

Sad to see this. I sailed on Sun Viking on my first cruise. I also saw her in Hong Kong back in 2019 when she was the Oriental Dragon. She wasn't in good shape and I'm not surprised she's being scrapped. I would've preferred she was sunk as an artificial reef. Sun Viking was a small ship for a cruise liner, but she would've made a great dive site.

Do you think she would have been good for use as a hotel and museum ship.

No I don't. She was a small ship of no historical importance. Not every ship needs to be preserved in that manner. In fact, very few are of enough historical consequence to even consider it. But as an artificial reef she would've been great. Enough size for multiple dives to be interesting, but short enough it could be sunk in shallow water making most of the ship accessible for recreational divers without interfering with any shipping traffic above it. Unlike the new megaships which are far too large for this purpose.

What makes the MV Funchal worth preserving as a hotel and museum ship that Sun Viking did not have. Funchal is becoming one in Lisbon.

FGITD · Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:22 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
mikesbucky wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Do you think she would have been good for use as a hotel and museum ship.

No I don't. She was a small ship of no historical importance. Not every ship needs to be preserved in that manner. In fact, very few are of enough historical consequence to even consider it. But as an artificial reef she would've been great. Enough size for multiple dives to be interesting, but short enough it could be sunk in shallow water making most of the ship accessible for recreational divers without interfering with any shipping traffic above it. Unlike the new megaships which are far too large for this purpose.

What makes the MV Funchal worth preserving as a hotel and museum ship that Sun Viking did not have. Funchal is becoming one in Lisbon.

You’re looking for an answer no one has. Maybe Funchal was more suited, was available and cheap, maybe the buyer/converter simply liked Funchal more.

Remember someone has to sell and buy the ship. Ergo…it has to be available. If the owner is committed to scrapping it, then it will be scrapped.

We’ve said it a million times in these threads. NO modern cruise ship is worth saving. And even of the ships that are saved or converted to hotels…sooner or later they’ll be scrapped too. Look at the United States, or the Queen Mary. The United States doesn’t even deserve to be called a ship anymore, and as for QM…it would be cheaper and more efficient for Long Beach to replace her with a fire pit that everyone can throw money into.

Kiwirob · Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:51 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
mikesbucky wrote:
The Sun Viking was beached at Gandhi Breach in Pakistan for scrapping after a 50 year career. The ship entered service in 1972 for Royal Caribbean and sailed for them until the late 1990's. The ship then sailed with a variety of operators in Asia until 2020, most recently as a casino ship under the name Oriental Dragon. Wish this ship was preserved as a hotel and museum ship. Possible locations that could have happened include Miami, Daytona Beach, Oslo, Helsinki, and New York City.
https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2022 ... n-scrapped

Sad to see this. I sailed on Sun Viking on my first cruise. I also saw her in Hong Kong back in 2019 when she was the Oriental Dragon. She wasn't in good shape and I'm not surprised she's being scrapped. I would've preferred she was sunk as an artificial reef. Sun Viking was a small ship for a cruise liner, but she would've made a great dive site.

Do you think she would have been good for use as a hotel and museum ship.

Short answer no, long answer why should any city take on the cost of upgrading and maintaining an old ship which has no relevance to anyone other than former crew.

Kiwirob · Sun Apr 10, 2022 2:06 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
There were many ships that lacked amenities desired on other ships built from the 1950's onward pre pandemic that sailed 40-50 years before being scrapped. Even ships that were outdated at 25-30 years of age like Sun Viking, Song of Norway, Nordic Prince, Song of America, Tropicale, Transvaal Castle, Empress of Britain/Carnival, and quite a lot others have sailed at least 40 years before being scrapped.

Again, it's economics, not age, nor can you compare different eras. Who would want those ships? There were more cruise ships built in the 2000s than the previous several decades combined; even prior to COVID, it was inevitable that many of these ships would wind up on the second-hand market as the industry's largest operators renewed their fleets. Put simply, the Asian and low-cost European cruise operators had/will have plenty of options to choose from, and the ships most capable of generating revenue will be the most attractive. The primary reason the ships you cited last so long is because so few cruise ships were built until the 1990s.

Despite the massive number of cruise ships built in the 2000's, many 1970's and early 1980's purpose built cruise ships sailed 40-50 years before being scrapped. It was still economically viable for then to go to secondhand and thirdhand markets, even those outdated at 25-30 years of age. This included the cheaply built Cunard Adventurer. Ten years ago, it was virtually unheard of for a 1970's built cruise ship to have been scrapped, even an early 1970's ship.

You need to get it into your head that the past is the past, times have changed, the industry has changed. You’re going to see plenty of 1990’s and early 2000’s ships heading to the wreckers in the near future. They aren’t efficient and won’t meet upcoming environmental regulations. None of them are worthy of saving.

bennett123 · Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:57 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
mikesbucky wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Do you think she would have been good for use as a hotel and museum ship.

No I don't. She was a small ship of no historical importance. Not every ship needs to be preserved in that manner. In fact, very few are of enough historical consequence to even consider it. But as an artificial reef she would've been great. Enough size for multiple dives to be interesting, but short enough it could be sunk in shallow water making most of the ship accessible for recreational divers without interfering with any shipping traffic above it. Unlike the new megaships which are far too large for this purpose.

What makes the MV Funchal worth preserving as a hotel and museum ship that Sun Viking did not have. Funchal is becoming one in Lisbon.

Firstly, the Funchal is half the tonnage of Sun Viking making it a smaller project.

Secondly, the passenger to crew ratio is higher meaning most potential revenue for each crew member.

Finally, that as the passenger count is lower, you need to sell less tickets.

OA260 · Mon Apr 11, 2022 12:43 pm

Looks like Celebrity Solstice, Asia sailings are to be axed from Sept to April due to uncertainty in the market.

mikesbucky · Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:38 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
mikesbucky wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Do you think she would have been good for use as a hotel and museum ship.

No I don't. She was a small ship of no historical importance. Not every ship needs to be preserved in that manner. In fact, very few are of enough historical consequence to even consider it. But as an artificial reef she would've been great. Enough size for multiple dives to be interesting, but short enough it could be sunk in shallow water making most of the ship accessible for recreational divers without interfering with any shipping traffic above it. Unlike the new megaships which are far too large for this purpose.

What makes the MV Funchal worth preserving as a hotel and museum ship that Sun Viking did not have. Funchal is becoming one in Lisbon.

I don't know enough about the MV Funchal to even make a guess as to why she's being preserved. I do know the Sun Viking wasn't significant in any appreciable way. If every ship was preserved the way you seem to think they should be, there would be no place for the current ships to dock!

ArchGuy1 · Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:07 pm

mikesbucky wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
mikesbucky wrote:

No I don't. She was a small ship of no historical importance. Not every ship needs to be preserved in that manner. In fact, very few are of enough historical consequence to even consider it. But as an artificial reef she would've been great. Enough size for multiple dives to be interesting, but short enough it could be sunk in shallow water making most of the ship accessible for recreational divers without interfering with any shipping traffic above it. Unlike the new megaships which are far too large for this purpose.

What makes the MV Funchal worth preserving as a hotel and museum ship that Sun Viking did not have. Funchal is becoming one in Lisbon.

I don't know enough about the MV Funchal to even make a guess as to why she's being preserved. I do know the Sun Viking wasn't significant in any appreciable way. If every ship was preserved the way you seem to think they should be, there would be no place for the current ships to dock!

What makes the Queen Mary, QE2, and SS Rotterdam worth preserving that the Sun Viking does not have.

johns624 · Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:40 pm

[quote="ArchGuy1"
What makes the Queen Mary, QE2, and SS Rotterdam worth preserving that the Sun Viking does not have.[/quote]Well, the first two have names that people who aren't ship geeks have heard of.

frmrCapCadet · Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:40 pm

johns624 wrote:
FGITD wrote:

Oh brother, Wrong site for that question!

It’s simple economics. The old ships cost more and don’t make as much. Plus compare the amenities on ships now vs even just 20 years ago and it’s a World of difference
Touche! I meant every flight, all the time.

post and riposte about the best on this site in a long time!

mikesbucky · Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:06 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
mikesbucky wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
What makes the MV Funchal worth preserving as a hotel and museum ship that Sun Viking did not have. Funchal is becoming one in Lisbon.

I don't know enough about the MV Funchal to even make a guess as to why she's being preserved. I do know the Sun Viking wasn't significant in any appreciable way. If every ship was preserved the way you seem to think they should be, there would be no place for the current ships to dock!

What makes the Queen Mary, QE2, and SS Rotterdam worth preserving that the Sun Viking does not have.

The Queen Mary at least had a part to play in the largest conflict the world has ever seen and in doing so helped rid the world of one of its most ruthless dictators. As for the others, who knows? Clearly some group with deep pockets felt there was a sufficient reason. The question is did their investment pay off? It's extremely unlikely the preservation of a pedestrian ship like the Sun Viking would be anything but a money pit for the investors.

OA260 · Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:24 pm

NCL Prima showcase in Southampton in August has been axed . Lots of disappointed people .

Kiwirob · Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:14 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
mikesbucky wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
What makes the MV Funchal worth preserving as a hotel and museum ship that Sun Viking did not have. Funchal is becoming one in Lisbon.

I don't know enough about the MV Funchal to even make a guess as to why she's being preserved. I do know the Sun Viking wasn't significant in any appreciable way. If every ship was preserved the way you seem to think they should be, there would be no place for the current ships to dock!

What makes the Queen Mary, QE2, and SS Rotterdam worth preserving that the Sun Viking does not have.

Queen Mary should be scrapped, ditto with QE2, Rotterdam is a small ship, but still I don’t see the point and eventually she’ll be scrapped. Sun Viking should have been scrapped 20 years ago. None of them are worth preserving.

ArchGuy1 · Tue Apr 12, 2022 6:11 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
mikesbucky wrote:
I don't know enough about the MV Funchal to even make a guess as to why she's being preserved. I do know the Sun Viking wasn't significant in any appreciable way. If every ship was preserved the way you seem to think they should be, there would be no place for the current ships to dock!

What makes the Queen Mary, QE2, and SS Rotterdam worth preserving that the Sun Viking does not have.

Queen Mary should be scrapped, ditto with QE2, Rotterdam is a small ship, but still I don’t see the point and eventually she’ll be scrapped. Sun Viking should have been scrapped 20 years ago. None of them are worth preserving.

What makes the HMS Victory and USS Constitution worth preserving.

johns624 · Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:49 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
What makes the Queen Mary, QE2, and SS Rotterdam worth preserving that the Sun Viking does not have.

Queen Mary should be scrapped, ditto with QE2, Rotterdam is a small ship, but still I don’t see the point and eventually she’ll be scrapped. Sun Viking should have been scrapped 20 years ago. None of them are worth preserving.

What makes the HMS Victory and USS Constitution worth preserving.

They are famous, they are small and they are preserved by the national governments. If you have to ask, you need to do more background reading. The only two ships in their respective navies that even come close to the history of those two in my opinion, are HMS Warspite and USS Enterprise (CV-6)

Kiwirob · Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:42 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
What makes the Queen Mary, QE2, and SS Rotterdam worth preserving that the Sun Viking does not have.

Queen Mary should be scrapped, ditto with QE2, Rotterdam is a small ship, but still I don’t see the point and eventually she’ll be scrapped. Sun Viking should have been scrapped 20 years ago. None of them are worth preserving.

What makes the HMS Victory and USS Constitution worth preserving.

Why would you even need to ask that question? You can't compare them to old ocean liners or modern cruise ships.

Kiwirob · Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:44 am

johns624 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Queen Mary should be scrapped, ditto with QE2, Rotterdam is a small ship, but still I don’t see the point and eventually she’ll be scrapped. Sun Viking should have been scrapped 20 years ago. None of them are worth preserving.

What makes the HMS Victory and USS Constitution worth preserving.
They are famous, they are small and they are preserved by the national governments. If you have to ask, you need to do more background reading. The only two ships in their respective navies that even come close to the history of those two in my opinion, are HMS Warspite and USS Enterprise (CV-6)

HMS Warspite should have been preserved. It's amazing that no British battleship was. At the very least they could have saved Vanguard.

OA260 · Mon May 09, 2022 5:34 pm

Im just back from a few days on Wonder of the Seas.
The food , entertainment and crew were excellent as
always . The ship was impressive and for someone who prefers the smaller ships I found the lay out made it feel less overwhelming due to its size. Some really good dining options and so much choice. I had a Central Park view balcony which was a decent size .

On one morning there was a Q&A with senior staff / CEO's which was interesting. A Pinnacle member from the USA did bring up the subject of face masks for crew and when they would be allowed to ditch them. A valid point considering passengers did not have them and everyone was vaccinated not to mention tested as are the crew on a regular basis. Hopefully they will be able to ditch them as its not great doing 12 hour shifts in those .

A few pics I took :

CRJ200flyer · Fri May 27, 2022 4:13 am

Harmony of the Seas collided with and destroyed a pier piling, and nearly struck the sea wall.

https://youtu.be/GYEKc4jEJBc

I am baffled why that ship was still moving so quickly. Normally they’re down to a slow walking speed, and to see how much energy it took to stop from hitting the shoreline suggests someone made a serious error.

Kiwirob · Fri May 27, 2022 5:08 am

CRJ200flyer wrote:
Harmony of the Seas collided with and destroyed a pier piling, and nearly struck the sea wall.

It's called a mooring dolphin.

Avatar2go · Fri May 27, 2022 5:24 am

CRJ200flyer wrote:
Harmony of the Seas collided with and destroyed a pier piling, and nearly struck the sea wall.

https://youtu.be/GYEKc4jEJBc

I am baffled why that ship was still moving so quickly. Normally they’re down to a slow walking speed, and to see how much energy it took to stop from hitting the shoreline suggests someone made a serious error.

The thruster did its job in averting collision with the seawall. But obviously poor bridge & docking procedures. It's always interesting with large ships, so many people are involved but often they don't speak up. Same thing happens with airline crews. So one or two people make bad decisions and due to rank, others go along.

Although in fairness, could also have been an equipment failure of some kind. Or weather related error since the ship has huge sail area.

northstardc4m · Fri May 27, 2022 11:30 am

Yesterday was an unfortunate day for cruise ships… Carnival Freedom had a fire while arriving in Grand Turk yesterday

https://carnival-news.com/2022/05/26/st ... l-freedom/

https://cruiseradio.net/carnival-freedo ... rand-turk/

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTdWaRfnj/?k=1

https://twitter.com/santapanda39/status ... Naxe05hm7Q

https://twitter.com/oma5bonnie/status/1 ... Naxe05hm7Q

No injuries, fire is extinguished but the whale tail is badly damaged.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CRJ200flyer · Fri May 27, 2022 5:16 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
CRJ200flyer wrote:
Harmony of the Seas collided with and destroyed a pier piling, and nearly struck the sea wall.

It's called a mooring dolphin.

Thank you for sharing, I didn’t know the technical term.

OA260 · Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:48 pm

The UK's newest cruise company Ambassador has completed 6 sailings and already getting good feedback. I was onboard recently and was great to see what they have done with this former Regal Princess and Pacific Dawn ship. They have done a good refurb job on it . Ex UK sailings which are more and more popular these days .

It just goes to show what you can do with an old ship given the right business model.

bennett123 · Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:01 pm

I am thinking about a Norwegian Fjords cruise on the Iona.

Has anyone done this cruise or have experience of the Iona.

A ship with 5,000 passengers and 184,000 tons sounds more like a smallish town rather than a ship.

Is it's size a problem, given that most of the journey is not In the open sea?.

bananaboy · Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:21 pm

bennett123 wrote:
I am thinking about a Norwegian Fjords cruise on the Iona.

Has anyone done this cruise or have experience of the Iona.

A ship with 5,000 passengers and 184,000 tons sounds more like a smallish town rather than a ship.

Is it's size a problem, given that most of the journey is not In the open sea?.

Both..just had a visit on Iona and also just sailed the Fjords, although on Holland America Line's Rotterdam.

The only issue I can think of with the size of the ship is that she may not be able to get quite as close to the scenery or into the smaller Fjords. Having said that, smaller, older ships can have a deeper draft than larger, newer ships so it's not black and white. Iona's Fjords itineraries are decent and give you a good amount of scenic cruising and stops at places with plenty of attractions.

Regarding Iona, the ship is impressive and my favourite of the fleet. It is big, but there's enough small(er) spaces to not make it feel so large. There's a lot of light in interior spaces, cabins are thoughtfully designed and tastefully decorated and I liked the wide choice of dining and outdoor spaces.

I was onboard Rotterdam for the naming ceremony and then stayed for a week to the Fjords. It was my first time up there and was pleasantly surprised about how much I did enjoy it. I usually go for somewhere and enjoy warm weather but not only did we get a couple of nice days, the scenery blew me away.

frmrCapCadet · Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:31 pm

Some people love cruises on a "small town ship", there are lots of options for eating, exercising, entertainment. Like a very trendy small town. Those big ship cruises can cost 10% of a small ship cruise. If you haven't done one, give it a try, it will be fun, even if it will be your one and only such big ship cruise.

johns624 · Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:34 pm

I've always sailed on ships with about a 2000 passenger capacity. I have no desire to sail on a megaship. Just not my style.

ltbewr · Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:50 pm

Two of the largest cruise ships under construction will never see the sea with passengers.The German shipbuilder, MV Ferften, went bankrupt as did their customer, Asian operator Dream Cruises, (part of Genting Hong Kong) are going to be scrapped and never sail. It is hoped some components can be sold to other ships to be under construction. One of them was tentatively named the Global Dream 2. These ship were designed specifically for the Asian market and to have among the largest passengers capacity of any current cruise ship.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/articl ... li=BBnbfcL

ArchGuy1 · Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:41 pm

The Carnival Sensation arrived in Aliaga for scrapping in early April 2022 after sailing for 29 years. This is a ship that had 15 years of life left, much of it with a secondhand or thirdhand line. I also see this ship as one that had some value as a hotel and museum ship.
https://cruiseradio.net/carnival-sensat ... ard-video/

johns624 · Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:10 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
The Carnival Sensation arrived in Aliaga for scrapping in early April 2022 after sailing for 29 years. This is a ship that had 15 years of life left, much of it with a secondhand or thirdhand line. I also see this ship as one that had some value as a hotel and museum ship.
https://cruiseradio.net/carnival-sensat ... ard-video/

If it had so much life left, why didn't any other cruise line buy it? Ships as hotels is a very niche market. Have you ever been in a cruise ship cabin? Even the outside balcony suites are very small compared to a regular hotel room. If the historic Queen Mary can't make it, so cruise ship from the last 40 years can do it, either.

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