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Aaron747
Posts: 17839
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:48 am

A101 wrote:
melpax wrote:
Summary of court documents & legal arguments.....

https://www.fcfcoa.gov.au/migration-law ... e/djokovic


Mmm interesting; according to the documents he say he has a

(i) has a medical contraindication to COVID-19 vaccines; and

(ii) can produce evidence provided by a medical practitioner of the matter mentioned in subparagraph (i);


“contraindication“
https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-a ... recautions

If this is the case why the need to issue a medical certificate so late and when did he submit the documents to tennis Australia?


But I also understand he arrived on the wrong visa from reports in the media, there is no onus on immigration to issue another type of visa either


If he has a legit contraindication, let's see it. If not, he should shut the hell up already. Guy is fast rising to top of 'most annoying celebrity' list.
 
A101
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:59 am

Aaron747 wrote:
A101 wrote:
melpax wrote:
Summary of court documents & legal arguments.....

https://www.fcfcoa.gov.au/migration-law ... e/djokovic


Mmm interesting; according to the documents he say he has a

(i) has a medical contraindication to COVID-19 vaccines; and

(ii) can produce evidence provided by a medical practitioner of the matter mentioned in subparagraph (i);


“contraindication“
https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-a ... recautions

If this is the case why the need to issue a medical certificate so late and when did he submit the documents to tennis Australia?


But I also understand he arrived on the wrong visa from reports in the media, there is no onus on immigration to issue another type of visa either


If he has a legit contraindication, let's see it. If not, he should shut the hell up already. Guy is fast rising to top of 'most annoying celebrity' list.


Well obviously he has not got one otherwise there would be no trouble.

His lawyers are using his most recent covid on December 16 as a means of entry, sounds like he knew he could not enter when he made the visa application, really beginning to wonder who he has paid off to get a positive covid result prior to travel. He is going for a loophole and I think tennis Australia have told him such as they are doing everything possible to get him in.

Just my opinion anyway
 
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Aesma
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:26 am

If Australia can keep its own citizens out, then it can certainly keep unvaccinated people out, even if they have a good reason to be unvaccinated (other than a recent positive status).
 
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zeke
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:53 am

A101 wrote:

Well obviously he has not got one otherwise there would be no trouble.

His lawyers are using his most recent covid on December 16 as a means of entry, sounds like he knew he could not enter when he made the visa application, really beginning to wonder who he has paid off to get a positive covid result prior to travel. He is going for a loophole and I think tennis Australia have told him such as they are doing everything possible to get him in.

Just my opinion anyway


According to the court documents his GG408 visa was issued 18 November 2021.

The Australian Government submission states that a recent infection can be a reason for not getting vaccinated, however it goes on to say you actually had to be pretty sick from it (which makes sense, let the body recover from the I’ll was “ can be deferred for a maximum of six months after the acute illness, as a temporary exemption due to acute major medical illness”). All evidence so far presented suggests he was asymptomatic so this reason is not valid.

“ AS [39]-[40] build up to the AIR form at AS [41]-[43]. But page 3 of that form says, at the top of the right hand column, “A previous infection is not a contraindication to immunisation against that same disease”.”

“ ... people with laboratory confirmation of past infection can start their vaccination course, or complete the second dose, if they have already had a first dose prior to being infected by SARS-CoV-2 as soon as they have recovered from the symptomatic infection. ...
3”

However in the submission for NJ “ the date of the first positive COVID PCR test was recorded on 16 December 2021, it had now been 14 days, and Mr Djokovic had not had a fever or respiratory symptoms of COVID-19 in the last 72 hours;”

So his submission states he was not acutely ill.
 
A101
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:22 am

Case continue, but court rules he can leave detention and will return once case finished,

So he going to play while the court case continue, what a joke goes to show if you have money special privileges

https://au.yahoo.com/sports/novak-djoko ... 48369.html


They say the ATAGI advice is clear that past infection is not a contraindication for infection and instead a person can defer vaccination for six months after acute illness.

"There is no suggestion that the applicant had 'acute major medical illness' in December 2021," the documents say.

"All he has said is that he tested positive for COVID-19. That is not the same."

The ATAGI advice also says a person who tests positive can receive a first or second dose of a COVID-19 vaccination once they are asymptomatic.

 
melpax
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:34 am

Youtube stream of the hearing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9oq_S9vTQg

Finalisation from around 2.45 in. His Honour not pleased when Government counsel advised that the Immigration minister might excercise their 'personal power of cancellation'...

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/tennis/ ... 59n0m.html
 
A101
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:42 am

Novax wins case, but still could be removed by the minister

It was set up from the beginning from Tennis Australia, government should probe all correspondence between them to find collusion and revoke federal funding to tennis Australia

https://www.9news.com.au/national/tenni ... 1e4f2d4596
 
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zeke
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:46 am

A101 wrote:

It was set up from the beginning from Tennis Australia, government should probe all correspondence between them to find collusion and revoke federal funding to tennis Australia


Yes very odd sequence of events

Visa application Nov 18
A piece of paper saying positive PCR test Dec 16
A piece of paper saying negative PCR test Dec 22

Never medically acute, on social media almost every day.
 
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zeke
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:11 am

Reading the order
https://fedcourt.gov.au/__data/assets/p ... 22-003.pdf

The reason given by the judge was he wasn’t given enough time, didn’t actually rule on the vaccination statue or visa entry requirements.

NOTATION:
A. The respondent concedes that the delegate’s decision to proceed with the interview and make a decision to cancel the applicant’s visa pursuant to s 116 of the Migration Act 1958 (Cth) was unreasonable in circumstances where:
(1) at 5:20am on 6 January 2022 the applicant was told that he could have until 8.30am to provide comments in response to a notice of intention to consider cancellation under s 116 of the Migration Act 1958 (Cth);
(2) instead, the applicant’s comments were then sought at about 6:14am.
(3) the delegate’s decision to cancel the applicant’s visa was made at 7.42am;
(4) the applicant was thus denied until 8.30am to make comments;
(5) had the applicant been allowed until 8:30am, he could have consulted others and made further submissions to the delegate about why his visa should not be cancelled.
B. This Order was pronounced orally in open court at 5:16 p.m. on Monday, 10 January 2022.
C. The Court was informed by the respondent, through her counsel of his instructions, that the Minister for Immigration, Citizenship, Migrant Services and Multicultural Affairs may consider whether to exercise a personal power of cancellation pursuant to sub-section 133C(3) of the Migration Act 1958
 
art
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:11 am

That's sorted then, barring the Minister for Immigration, Citizenship, Migrant Services and Multicultural Affairs exercising a personal power of cancellation pursuant to sub-section 133C(3) of the Migration Act 1958.

With a bit of luck the Australian Open tennis will become the focus of interest now rather than the Australian COVID-19 immigration regulations. What a procedural screw up by the border force!
 
melpax
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:25 am

art wrote:
That's sorted then


Not quite. There were some unconfirmed reports from Djokovic's family that he had been re-arrested by the Federal Police, however one of the papers here has confirmed that this was not the case. Apparently the Immigration Minister has until 9.15pm Melbourne time to make a decision regarding any possible visa cancellation.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/tennis/ ... 59n0m.html

Novak supporters now outside the rear entrance of his Solicitor's office building in Melbourne (Rialto building), wonder how long until the riot squad show up....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdG9kgyE80k
 
A101
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:51 am

 
A101
Posts: 2859
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:54 am

melpax wrote:
art wrote:
That's sorted then


Not quite. There were some unconfirmed reports from Djokovic's family that he had been re-arrested by the Federal Police, however one of the papers here has confirmed that this was not the case. Apparently the Immigration Minister has until 9.15pm Melbourne time to make a decision regarding any possible visa cancellation.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/tennis/ ... 59n0m.html

Novak supporters now outside the rear entrance of his Solicitor's office building in Melbourne (Rialto building), wonder how long until the riot squad show up....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdG9kgyE80k


Why 9:15?


Cannot open link behind paywall
 
889091
Posts: 609
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:00 am

All the attention has been focused on Novak - what about the other Czech female doubles player who has been formally deported back home? Obviously it pays to have $ available to fund for the legal top dogs to defend you.

Personally not a fan of Novak, but it looks like there has been a major screw-up by Tennis Australia. They sent an official letter out to all players indicating that if you had had Covid prior to a certain date, you could apply for an exemption. Official letters from the Federal Health Minister indicated that having recovered from Covid was not grounds for gaining exemption/entry into Australia.

Question is - Is Renata Voráčová now formally banned from competing in the next 3 Australian Opens as she has been formally deported and a formal deportation generally entails a 3 year entry ban? If so, does she have any legal grounds to sue TA?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-08/ ... /100746080
 
melpax
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:25 am

A101 wrote:

Why 9:15?


Cannot open link behind paywall


Apparently the Minister has 4 hours to keep him in detention in these circumstances using their personal powers.

Local media reporting that The Minster has not made a decision tonight, and may make a decision tomorrow....
 
889091
Posts: 609
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:29 am

melpax wrote:
Apparently the Minister has 4 hours to keep him in detention in these circumstances using their personal powers.

Local media reporting that The Minster has not made a decision tonight, and may make a decision tomorrow....


Wouldn't that play into the hands of team Novak again? If the Australian Government has a deadline to decide what to do and the deadline then passes.........

Or is this their game plan all along?

https://www.news.com.au/sport/tennis/au ... 274de306dc
Last edited by 889091 on Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
art
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:30 am

melpax wrote:
Apparently the Minister has 4 hours to keep him in detention in these circumstances using their personal powers.

Local media reporting that The Minster has not made a decision tonight, and may make a decision tomorrow....


Is that within the allotted 4 hours? Better be or Oz is going to start looking a bit silly - Tennis organisation, NSW state give him to understand he will receive a waiver to vaccination requirement on entry, border force do not follow the procedure outlined to him, minister fails to follow correct procedure).
 
melpax
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:39 am

art wrote:

Is that within the allotted 4 hours? Better be or Oz is going to start looking a bit silly - Tennis organisation, NSW state give him to understand he will receive a waiver to vaccination requirement on entry, border force do not follow the procedure outlined to him, minister fails to follow correct procedure).


No, apparently the Minister had 4 hours to decide whether to have him taken back into Immigration Detention for deportation, however the Minister can still decide to cancel his Visa. Would not be suprised if his Social Media posts are currently being scrutinised, only other reason I can think of would be to cancel his visa on Character grounds, which has happened on a number of occasions with far right activists, and certain rappers.
 
A101
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:40 am

889091 wrote:
melpax wrote:
Apparently the Minister has 4 hours to keep him in detention in these circumstances using their personal powers.

Local media reporting that The Minster has not made a decision tonight, and may make a decision tomorrow....


Wouldn't that play into the hands of team Novak again? If the Australian Government has a deadline to decide what to do and the deadline then passes.........

Or is this their game plan all along?

https://www.news.com.au/sport/tennis/au ... 274de306dc


Looking at the transcript I can see why they upheld the “unreasonable” decision when it was different border force shift that reneged on agreement to call someone at 0830 to help sort it out in one way it will make border force reevaluate its process and learn from mistake


That might be why they let that lapse; looking at the ministerial power of cancellation of visa it cannot be appealed

Appeals
If we refuse or cancel your visa, you might be able to request a review of our decision. You cannot appeal a decision if it was made by the minister personally.
The independent Administrative Appeals Tribunal (AAT) is responsible for reviewing departmental decisions including visa cancellation decisions.
To seek a review by the AAT, you must lodge your application by the date specified in your decision notification letter.
For decisions that are to be reviewed by the AAT, the AAT cannot extend the time for making a valid review application. You must apply for review within the time period identified in the decision notification letter.


https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/cancelling-a-visa
 
art
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:54 am

melpax wrote:
art wrote:

Is that within the allotted 4 hours? Better be or Oz is going to start looking a bit silly - Tennis organisation, NSW state give him to understand he will receive a waiver to vaccination requirement on entry, border force do not follow the procedure outlined to him, minister fails to follow correct procedure).


... the Minister can still decide to cancel his Visa. Would not be suprised if his Social Media posts are currently being scrutinised, only other reason I can think of would be to cancel his visa on Character grounds, which has happened on a number of occasions with far right activists, and certain rappers.

That is not fair dinkum, sport! If he was an OK guy all the times he was given a visa in the past, how could it now be said he's not an OK guy? Did he rob any banks since he won the championship last year? Murder lots of people? Defraud millions out of innocent victims?

But wait a minute... they might find evidence on his social media that he espoused a different view of vaccination to that of the Australian government. Don't want people with contrary views to the federal government on our shores, do we! That's not OK.
 
A101
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:05 am

art wrote:
melpax wrote:
art wrote:

Is that within the allotted 4 hours? Better be or Oz is going to start looking a bit silly - Tennis organisation, NSW state give him to understand he will receive a waiver to vaccination requirement on entry, border force do not follow the procedure outlined to him, minister fails to follow correct procedure).


... the Minister can still decide to cancel his Visa. Would not be suprised if his Social Media posts are currently being scrutinised, only other reason I can think of would be to cancel his visa on Character grounds, which has happened on a number of occasions with far right activists, and certain rappers.

That is not fair dinkum, sport! If he was an OK guy all the times he was given a visa in the past, how could it now be said he's not an OK guy? Did he rob any banks since he won the championship last year? Murder lots of people? Defraud millions out of innocent victims?

But wait a minute... they might find evidence on his social media that he espoused a different view of vaccination to that of the Australian government. Don't want people with contrary views to the federal government on our shores, do we! That's not OK.


That’s not the point; it is Australian law to enter you be vaccinated, he applied for visa before his posative result, he has no plans to be vaccinated before entering Australia, on those grounds alone he is not of good character
 
art
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:20 am

A101 wrote:
art wrote:
melpax wrote:

... the Minister can still decide to cancel his Visa. Would not be suprised if his Social Media posts are currently being scrutinised, only other reason I can think of would be to cancel his visa on Character grounds, which has happened on a number of occasions with far right activists, and certain rappers.

That is not fair dinkum, sport! If he was an OK guy all the times he was given a visa in the past, how could it now be said he's not an OK guy? Did he rob any banks since he won the championship last year? Murder lots of people? Defraud millions out of innocent victims?

But wait a minute... they might find evidence on his social media that he espoused a different view of vaccination to that of the Australian government. Don't want people with contrary views to the federal government on our shores, do we! That's not OK.


That’s not the point; it is Australian law to enter you be vaccinated, he applied for visa before his posative result, he has no plans to be vaccinated before entering Australia, on those grounds alone he is not of good character


' ...it is Australian law to enter you be vaccinated...'

It would be simpler if that were the case. My guess is that Djokovic wanted to play, had the assurance from the Tennis body and NSW that he could get through a loophole but unfortunately came unstuck - until the border force shift change screw up threw him a lifeline.

How much longer can this go on? If he wants to be at his best, I imagine that he needs to get on with his pre-match training/practising routine.
Last edited by art on Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
889091
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:37 am

A101 wrote:
That’s not the point; it is Australian law to enter you be vaccinated, he applied for visa before his posative result, he has no plans to be vaccinated before entering Australia, on those grounds alone he is not of good character


The judge presiding over the initial hearing would have looked at the timelines closely. As I mentioned earlier, it would have looked pretty bad for Novak had he been the only one impacted by this so called 'loophole', however there are 2 other people who have already been deported; the female doubles player Renata Voráčová and another official.

I do not envy the position of the Australian Government at the moment. It is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Clearly TA dropped the ball (no pun intended) on this occasion and the Australian Government is left to pick up the pieces.

The Australian Government is well within its rights to cancel Novak's visa and deport him. However do they really want to do so and risk tainting the reputation of Australia as a tourist destination? On the other hand, many local Australians have endured months of endless lockdowns, vaccination requirements, etc - they will see red if Novak is granted an exemption and allowed to play. Catch 22.
Last edited by 889091 on Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:51 am

A101 wrote:
Novax wins case, but still could be removed by the minister

It was set up from the beginning from Tennis Australia, government should probe all correspondence between them to find collusion and revoke federal funding to tennis Australia

https://www.9news.com.au/national/tenni ... 1e4f2d4596


I hope the minister decides to use his discretion and remove Novax. That woii is is also be the end of his Australian open career, he would be banned for 3 years, it might also cause problems with visas for other countries like the US.

Since he’s not of good character he could be removed as a 501.
 
art
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:15 pm

Have just heard ex-minister Alexander Downer(?) being interviewed by BBC 24 hour news. He said that that the government wrote to Tennis Australia in November informing them that there would be no exemptions from 2 week quarantine on entering Australia except for people who were vaccinated. Having been informed of this, Novak should have been informed he would need to quarantine for 2 weeks after his arrival.
 
889091
Posts: 609
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:20 pm

art wrote:
Have just heard ex-minister Alexander Downer(?) being interviewed by BBC 24 hour news. He said that that the government wrote to Tennis Australia in November informing them that there would be no exemptions from 2 week quarantine on entering Australia except for people who were vaccinated. Having been informed of this, Novak should have been informed he would need to quarantine for 2 weeks after his arrival.


That's where TA made the boo-boo. Not only Novak, but Renata Voráčová and another official were caught out as well
 
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zeke
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:23 pm

melpax wrote:

No, apparently the Minister had 4 hours to decide whether to have him taken back into Immigration Detention for deportation, however the Minister can still decide to cancel his Visa. Would not be suprised if his Social Media posts are currently being scrutinised, only other reason I can think of would be to cancel his visa on Character grounds, which has happened on a number of occasions with far right activists, and certain rappers.


The minister can cancel and visa at any time.

Novax is using a PCR test on Dec 16 as evidence HE had c19, then on Dec 22 another PCR test said he is negative. The science does not work that way.

If I was the Oz gov I would demand a blood sample and test for antibody levels. The antibody levels would then indicate if the Dec 16 PCR test is a forgery, if it is, that is the end of his international tennis career.
 
889091
Posts: 609
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:33 pm

melpax wrote:
Novak supporters now outside the rear entrance of his Solicitor's office building in Melbourne (Rialto building), wonder how long until the riot squad show up....


Care to pick some lotto numbers for me? :lol:

https://www.news.com.au/sport/tennis/su ... 9dcfcd848e
 
art
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:49 pm

If the minister cancels his visa, is that absolute (cannot be challenged in court)? I guess that the legal process would be too slow for him to play in the open even if he could challenge the visa cancellation.

Not that that worries me too much - I backed Nadal and another player to win based on the prospect of Novak not being able to take part.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:02 pm

art wrote:
If the minister cancels his visa, is that absolute (cannot be challenged in court)? I guess that the legal process would be too slow for him to play in the open even if he could challenge the visa cancellation.

Not that that worries me too much - I backed Nadal and another player to win based on the prospect of Novak not being able to take part.


From what I heard on the radio this morning the Minister has the final say.
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:25 pm

What's the point of having the court system in Australia when a minister can do whatever he wants and overrule what the federal judge just decided? What a dumb system! And the said minister Hawke has a very interesting racist past. How did he get to the position in the first place?

With a positivity rate of 26%, Victoria demonstrated that its Covid-19 measures are not really working. Source: https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/vict ... id-19-data So Australia shut its borders for two years, pissed off its citizens, and now the biggest problem it has is apparently Novak Djokovic. He is not travelling there to "fuck the spiders," he is there to take the title #10 in Melbourne. I hope he does and never goes back to Australia.

Australia demonstrated an amazing level of incompetence and lack of communication, and played ugly political pre-election games in how they handled the whole case. A visa has nothing to do with his covid status. Per Court documents: "the visa was subject 'to no condition having the effect that his right to enter and remain in Australia was qualified in any way in regard to his vaccination status.'" Medical exemption took care of his actual entry into Australia. And this is why canceling his visa is a complete political BS.
 
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zeke
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:39 pm

BEG2IAH wrote:
What's the point of having the court system in Australia when a minister can do whatever he wants and overrule what the federal judge just decided?


The courts are there for judicial review of decisions made, it is not there to make the decision. The Judge made no ruling on if NJ was actually entering Australia legally.

Normally people are only given 10-20 minutes between their Notice of Intention to Consider Cancellation (NOICC) and their response. He actually got a lot longer than others get, the Judge didnt say the time he was given was unreasonable, what was unreasonable was he was told at one stage he would have until 8:30am and then it was brought forward about an hour.

Even if they waited an hour there is nothing his legal team could have done to prevent the visa being cancelled.

BEG2IAH wrote:
I hope he does and never goes back to Australia.


I think the majority of people would welcome that decision.

BEG2IAH wrote:
Australia demonstrated an amazing level of incompetence and lack of communication, and played ugly political pre-election games in how they handled the whole case.


At the federal level there was never any communication that said it was okay for him to enter. If you read the transcript of his interview with ABF he actually stated to them he had an email from federal government saying he could enter Australia. They pressed him for that document, he was able to contact his agent. After a while he came back and said he made a mistake when he said he never had a document from the federal government which granted him an exemption. From the interview it is clear he is aware of the different levels of government, and he was aware that the state government does not control the border or issues vaccination records or medical exemptions.

I have reviewed everything presented, NJ did not have any document which is in the format of a medical exemption. A PCR test result is not a medical exemption, and a letter from tennis Australia is not a medical exemption. Medical exemptions for C19 are very rare, there has been less than 300 issued in total.

Medical exemptions are obtained ahead of time, ABF cannot issue them on entry. Medical exemptions like vaccination records are stored on the Australian Immunization Register (AIR), if he had a valid medical exemption NJ would have been issued with what is known as an Individual Health Identifier (IHI) and his Medical Exemption would have been uploaded against his IHI. ABF would see the exemption on AIR (the systems are linked).

Medical exemption certificates look like covid vaccination certificates, they are issued by the federal government. If he had a valid exemption he would be able to download the digital certificate from "My Health Records" in his myGov account to his phone. Even as a non Australian he could setup a MyGov account, get a My Health Records and have an IHI. The Australian Government would also provide him free C19 vaccinations without a Medicare Card to him and they would be recorded in AIR.

BEG2IAH wrote:
A visa has nothing to do with his covid status. Per Court documents: "the visa was subject 'to no condition having the effect that his right to enter and remain in Australia was qualified in any way in regard to his vaccination status.'" Medical exemption took care of his actual entry into Australia. And this is why canceling his visa is a complete political BS.


Visas have never had anything to with vaccinations. You could always be turned around at the border if you didnt have required vaccinations, for example yellow fever for persons arriving from parts of Africa. Visas can always be cancelled at the border or even at a later time.
 
A101
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:01 pm

BEG2IAH wrote:

What's the point of having the court system in Australia when a minister can do whatever he wants and overrule what the federal judge just decided? What a dumb system!


You will find most sovereign nations the government has has powers in addition to, it why they are an independent nation. It also has to be a very compelling reason for ministerial intervention. Some decisions are more open to the public than others there has been a number of high profile cases where the Minister has used his powers

BEG2IAH wrote:

And the said minister Hawke has a very interesting racist past. How did he get to the position in the first place?


One he has to be voted in by his electorate and 2 its a cabinet position and the PM makes those

Just follow the UK Westminster traditions mostly

BEG2IAH wrote:

With a positivity rate of 26%, Victoria demonstrated that its Covid-19 measures are not really working. Source: https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/vict ... id-19-data So Australia shut its borders for two years, pissed off its citizens, and now the biggest problem it has is apparently Novak Djokovic. He is not travelling there to "fuck the spiders," he is there to take the title #10 in Melbourne. I hope he does and never goes back to Australia.


And there lies the rub, the virus gets into Australia from overseas carries, its Australia right on who comes and they have to follow entry requirements, remember the judge has only ruled on the unreasonable of the process in not providing him time to access information from Tennis Australia

It’s also Australia right to change its entry requirements at any time it sees fit due to circumstances, which the advice provide was provided to tennis Australia from the health Minister

BEG2IAH wrote:

Australia demonstrated an amazing level of incompetence and lack of communication, and played ugly political pre-election games in how they handled the whole case. A visa has nothing to do with his covid status. Per Court documents: "the visa was subject 'to no condition having the effect that his right to enter and remain in Australia was qualified in any way in regard to his vaccination status.'" Medical exemption took care of his actual entry into Australia. And this is why canceling his visa is a complete political BS.


What you fail to grasp is that the visa never says conditions entry requirements are separate from the visa it’s up to the individual to meet the entry requirements and you are not cleared into the country at the last hurdle

Now Australia has a requirements to be vaccinated to enter Australia, novax had no intention of meeting those requirements otherwise he would have started his vaccinations before he applied for a visa which was back in November, it he did not miraculously get a positive result he could not use the loophole.

The judge has not ruled on the validity of his paperwork that he meets entry requirements and that know comes under Ministerial purview. The advice also say previous positive covid result is not a contradiction and he can continue his vaccinations once asymptomatic.

Also it is Serbian requirements that he is require 14 days of self-isolation in case COVID-19 positive which he did not do.

There is a lot of evidence to support Ministerial intervention on character grounds alone.

Just hope the Australian federal government shows a bit of spine and show him the door out and close the loophole as he never intended to follow entry requirements Tennis Australia is vastly complicit in these events as all they wanted was bums on seats money money money
 
art
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:07 pm

If the Australian minister concerned does exercise his/her power to cancel Novak's visa, when is that likely to happen? I presume it will be a matter that will not be left without timely attention. We don't want Novak being marched off the court when he's a set up in the final, do we?
 
889091
Posts: 609
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:23 pm

art wrote:
If the Australian minister concerned does exercise his/her power to cancel Novak's visa, when is that likely to happen? I presume it will be a matter that will not be left without timely attention. We don't want Novak being marched off the court when he's a set up in the final, do we?


There will be mayhem on the roads when/if he does so. There was already mayhem yesterday evening when the judge's decision went in Novak's favour.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2331
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:00 pm

Djokovic had a right to be treated fairly within the instructions he was given by border control officers.

Not allowing the further 52 minutes to present further information was pretty silly. Djokovic has been Covid-stupid during the pandemic and his bona fides deserved to be fully considered - which may still have led to his exclusion from the country.
 
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zeke
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:33 pm

art wrote:
If the Australian minister concerned does exercise his/her power to cancel Novak's visa, when is that likely to happen?


I would give him the opportunity to provide a blood sample to confirm his recent claimed acute C19 infection, it would take a day or two for results to come back. If those are satisficed I would ask the doctors that did not do their job properly to file a medical exemption in AIR stating he currently has an acute C19 infection and cannot be vaccinated. That would be a valid medical exemption.

If he currently has an acute infection he should be placed into quarantine, if he has recovered he should be vaccinated. Vaccination is only contradicted for someone with an acute infection, not for someone that has recovered.
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:12 pm

A101 wrote:
What you fail to grasp is that the visa never says conditions entry requirements are separate from the visa it’s up to the individual to meet the entry requirements and you are not cleared into the country at the last hurdle


That's what I'm talking about the whole time. Visa is just one of the many entry requirements. So according to most posters, if there is no covid proof provided, cancel the visa. What's next? Shoot the visitor?!?

So let me make a U.S.-equivalent example. Let's say I'm a foreign national and I was issued a visa in 2018. I show up at the border checkpoint in 2021 and I fail to produce a medical exemption or proof of vaccination. They would send me back, or place me in a quarantine, and not cancel my visa. These things are totally unrelated.

All I have read above is that after this screw-up the Minister can have a bad hair day (or an ED day) and decide based on his frustrated perception of Novak's character to cancel his visa. What a system...
 
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zeke
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:28 pm

BEG2IAH wrote:
So let me make a U.S.-equivalent example. Let's say I'm a foreign national and I was issued a visa in 2018. I show up at the border checkpoint in 2021 and I fail to produce a medical exemption or proof of vaccination. They would send me back, or place me in a quarantine, and not cancel my visa. These things are totally unrelated.


Visas and health status are not unrelated. Visa holders need to provide evidence they are not going to be a burden or harmful on the Australian community, this includes sickness, vaccinations, and health insurance.

Procedures used outside of Australia are not relevant to entering Australia, every sovereign country has the right and ability to set their own requirements.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:53 pm

Can someone explain to me how he managed to turn this into "an attack on Serbia" (his words, not mine) and how so many Serbians seem to have taken it as such? Can't imagine Federer or Nadal turning a visa issue into a rallying cry for Swiss or Spanish nationalism?

A101 wrote:
Also it is Serbian requirements that he is require 14 days of self-isolation in case COVID-19 positive which he did not do.

There is a lot of evidence to support Ministerial intervention on character grounds alone.


Agreed. Seems like an open and shut case to be honest.

zeke wrote:
If I was the Oz gov I would demand a blood sample and test for antibody levels. The antibody levels would then indicate if the Dec 16 PCR test is a forgery, if it is, that is the end of his international tennis career.


The results of this would be interesting for sure. Again I'm doubtful that it will enhance the standing of his character.
 
art
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:21 am

zkojq wrote:
zeke wrote:
If I was the Oz gov I would demand a blood sample and test for antibody levels. The antibody levels would then indicate if the Dec 16 PCR test is a forgery, if it is, that is the end of his international tennis career.


The results of this would be interesting for sure. Again I'm doubtful that it will enhance the standing of his character.

I don't see that someone who does not want to be vaccinated is of bad character. To me that is demonisation but yes, if it can be shown that he was involved in faking documentation, that would affect my view of his character.
Last edited by art on Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
BEG2IAH
Posts: 1127
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:23 am

zeke wrote:
Procedures used outside of Australia are not relevant to entering Australia, every sovereign country has the right and ability to set their own requirements.


Even in Australia, visa and covid clearance are not related, although you want to paint a different picture.
 
luckyone
Topic Author
Posts: 4321
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:26 am

zeke wrote:
BEG2IAH wrote:
So let me make a U.S.-equivalent example. Let's say I'm a foreign national and I was issued a visa in 2018. I show up at the border checkpoint in 2021 and I fail to produce a medical exemption or proof of vaccination. They would send me back, or place me in a quarantine, and not cancel my visa. These things are totally unrelated.


Visas and health status are not unrelated. Visa holders need to provide evidence they are not going to be a burden or harmful on the Australian community, this includes sickness, vaccinations, and health insurance.

Procedures used outside of Australia are not relevant to entering Australia, every sovereign country has the right and ability to set their own requirements.

Why should the rules be bent twice for him? He missed the original deadline of Dec 10. His result is from Dec 16th.
 
User avatar
zeke
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:38 am

BEG2IAH wrote:

Even in Australia, visa and covid clearance are not related, although you want to paint a different picture.


There is no covid specific terms in the legalisation, all health related requirements are lumped together. Covid criteria are published separately and not by Tennis Australia or the Victorian Government

Section 65 of the Migration Act 1958 (Cth)
3.12
This section will examine s 65 of the Migration Act 1958 (Cth) as it relates to the decision-making process in relation to the Health Requirement.

3.13 Section 65 of the Act deals with the ‘decision to grant or refuse to grant a visa’.6 Section 65(1)(a) and (b) states:
After considering a valid application for a visa, the Minister:

if satisfied that:

the health criteria for it (if any) have been satisfied; and
the other criteria for it prescribed by this Act or the regulations have been satisfied; and
the grant of the visa is not prevented by section 40(circumstances when granted), 500A (refusal or cancellation of temporary safe haven visas), 501 (special power to refuse or cancel) or any other provision of this Act or of any other law of the Commonwealth; and
any amount of visa application charge payable in relation to the application has been paid;
is to grant the visa or
if not so satisfied, is to refuse to grant the visa.7
3.14
For the purposes of this report, a person with authority to act under s 65 of the Act (other than the Minister of Immigration and Citizenship) will be referred to as a “Department decision-maker”.

3.15 In applying s 65 of the Act, a Department decision-maker must consider the health criterion named therein. Subsection 5(1) of the Act, provides the following definition for the ‘health criterion’ as specified in s 65:
"health criterion", in relation to a visa, means a prescribed criterion for the visa that:
relates to the applicant for the visa, or the members of the family unit of that applicant; and
deals with:

a prescribed disease; or
a prescribed kind of disease; or
a prescribed physical or mental condition; or
a prescribed kind of physical or mental condition; or
a prescribed kind of examination; or
a prescribed kind of treatment.8
 
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zkojq
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:25 am

art wrote:
zkojq wrote:
zeke wrote:
If I was the Oz gov I would demand a blood sample and test for antibody levels. The antibody levels would then indicate if the Dec 16 PCR test is a forgery, if it is, that is the end of his international tennis career.


The results of this would be interesting for sure. Again I'm doubtful that it will enhance the standing of his character.

I don't see that someone who does not want to be vaccinated is of bad character.


He was photographed with multiple strangers the day after his supposedly positive test. That does show bad character. I wonder how many people he spread it to.

Once again, if anti-vaxxers had any credibility whatsoever, they'd be very pro-facemask, pro-distancing whilst indoors etc inorder to protect themselves since they can't be bothered doing so with a vaccine. But there's no overlap whatsoever between being antivaxx and pro-mask. Simply a matter of kids not liking to be told what do to. Or scared of needles. Possibly both.

And in Novak's case he thinks that polluted water can be cleaned with your emotions....

https://www.eurosport.com/tennis/novak- ... tory.shtml

"I've seen people and I know some people that, through that energetical transformation, through the power of prayer, through the power of gratitude, they manage to turn the most toxic food or most polluted water, into the most healing water."

"Because water reacts and scientists have proven that, that molecules in the water react to our emotions, to what is being said."
 
A101
Posts: 2859
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Australian Open 2022

Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:25 am

art wrote:

I don't see that someone who does not want to be vaccinated is of bad character. To me that is demonisation but yes, if it can be shown that he was involved in faking documentation, that would affect my view of his character.


Irrespective on novax’s own personal view on vaccinations he showed no moral fibre in when present with his own positive test results he ignored Serbian law to isolate, if he does not care about his fellow countryman it just shows how bad a character he is towards Australian to selfishly enter against the entry requirements when he knew he had to be vaccinated to enter, he knew this when he applied for a visa back in November
 
A101
Posts: 2859
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Australian Open 2022

Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:35 am

luckyone wrote:
zeke wrote:
BEG2IAH wrote:
So let me make a U.S.-equivalent example. Let's say I'm a foreign national and I was issued a visa in 2018. I show up at the border checkpoint in 2021 and I fail to produce a medical exemption or proof of vaccination. They would send me back, or place me in a quarantine, and not cancel my visa. These things are totally unrelated.


Visas and health status are not unrelated. Visa holders need to provide evidence they are not going to be a burden or harmful on the Australian community, this includes sickness, vaccinations, and health insurance.

Procedures used outside of Australia are not relevant to entering Australia, every sovereign country has the right and ability to set their own requirements.

Why should the rules be bent twice for him? He missed the original deadline of Dec 10. His result is from Dec 16th.


100% agree

One also has to remember that the exemptions were issued by the state of Victoria to actually play in the tournament as the Victorian rules say sports have to be vaccinated, it was never a document to say he was exempt to enter Australia.

There are a couple of NRL and AFL players who do not want to get vaccinated and have paid the price with their sports careers. ChinaDans different rules for different people

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/7news.c ... 554630.amp
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14998
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Australian Open 2022

Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:38 am

Kiwirob wrote:
A101 wrote:

I hope the minister decides to use his discretion and remove Novax. That woii is is also be the end of his Australian open career, he would be banned for 3 years, it might also cause problems with visas for other countries like the US.

Since he’s not of good character he could be removed as a 501.


Wow, Aaron Rodgers got off easy!
 
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zkojq
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Re: Australian Open 2022

Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:44 am

And now Nigel Farridge has jumped on the bandwagon.....travelling to Serbia to visit the Djokovic family for some reason.

Britain’s former world tennis No 1, Andy Murray, was one of many critics, retweeting a video of Farage with Djokovic’s family in the player’s trophy room and telling him to: “Please record the awkward moment when you tell them you’ve spent most of your career campaigning to have people from eastern Europe deported.”


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... c-visa-row
 
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zeke
Posts: 17184
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Australian Open 2022

Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:08 am

New twist reported in the press.

Apparently there has been a failure to disclose all countries visited in the 14 days prior to arrival. There is an allegation he was in Spain during the 14 day period and this was not declared.
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